Wow, I didn't think Ned would pull the trigger during the season. I've been a Gio defender, but this loss coupled with the very public disagreements with players absolutely forced Ned's hand. The good times were great with Gio, but it's been a miserable couple of seasons and this team lacks an identity as currently constructed.
Even the good times with Gio was kind of unconvincing to me. Sure, it was nice to win the "MLS is back" trophy and make the cup finals twice but like we sorta go there playing the kind of ball that only fans of a team could appreciate. I always felt that Gio ball was unsustainable in the long run given the progress the league's been making the last few years. now with Messi the bar has been raised. Maybe Ned felt he had to pull the trigger now or we would get lost in the Messi-led wave.
The good times were only ok and at best good with Gio, not great. Timbers continue to have the same issues they always have. Mental issues where their play is subpar until it matters (playoffs) where they overachieve and then flounder in the final (all but the build better back, covid cup, or whatever it was called). BTW, that is an issue that went across Porter AND Gio, and someone in the Front office needs to figure out WHY. He was also outcoached by more than one coach across more than a few games. All in all i thought he was good for the first few years; however, seemed to get worse the more players he got to form HIS team. Thanks Gio, All the best on your future endeavors.
His time has come. He was failed, but also failed. We don’t have to pretend like he doesn’t know the shape of a soccer ball. He did some good things here. And a couple of great things. Fun guy. Decent guy, unless you’re an AR.
Hopeful in moving on. But the Gio bashing (there should be some post-mortem criticism, certainly) should stop now and maybe we can reflect on some of his achievements as well. Despite how this place has talked about Gio every time a player makes a dipshit pass, there were some GREAT successes.
Yeah, #CampGioOut was focused on a few dipshit passes here and there...
No one is arguing there weren't successes. There obviously were. Covid Cup was really fun, and the team was clicking. Yeah the 21 playoff run was great, and having an MLS Cup at home was amazing, even with the loss.
My issue, and the issue of a lot of people, was the overarching timbre of the seasons under Gio. It wasn't fun to watch. The Timbers did not play attractive, engaging soccer for the vast majority of every season under Gio. The entertainment value wa abysmal.
Sure, they'd cork off some big wins here and there (loved that PTFC had the best of the Sounders during his reign). But then they'd get embarrassingly trounced. At home. The random highs were high, but the frequent lows were very low. Two weeks of hot play at the end of the season will always struggle to make up for six or seven months of derpy, incohesive, and listless soccer. But I suppose for some fans, the ends justify the means, and all that matters is that fleeting hot run in the playoffs.
So yeah, Gio presided over some fun moments. He sure seemed a decent tournament coach. But stylistically, what imprint is he leaving behind? What players are significantly better than they were when they arrived? On a football basis, how has the club grown under his tutelage? And, most importantly, what the hell was GioBall? I don't think anyone will remember what GioBall was, because no one can actually articulate what it is. And therein lies the heart of the problem, imho. This club has zero identity on the pitch. And that comes full circle to the issue a lot of us have had with Gio.
Wish him well. Seems like a great human. I bet kids and dogs like him. But I've never been a fan of him as a coach, and seriously doubt I'll look back on the Gio Era with much fondness other than good times with friends in the stands.
But that is the past. It is time to move forward. This is a pivotal moment for the club. I hope Ned & Co are up for the challenge, and I hope MP can dredge up some of the ambition he used to have and allow this club to grow.
The biggest mystery to me is why the team has made the same defensive mistakes year after year across coaches. It's like the fundamentals don't exist--horror show back post marking, falling asleep, out of sync offside plays, facing our own goal too much, penalties conceded... The team has often been talented if mercurial in attack under both Porter and Gio, the defense has been juvenile for most of the team's MLS tenure.
The whole cold start, hot finish has really been with this team since I can remember both under Porter and Gio. It almost makes me wonder if there are huge bonuses attached to winning the cup and management said it is okay to just do well enough in the regular season as long as you go far in the playoffs.
I honestly think that it's more a league-wide byproduct of the fact that 65% of teams make the playoffs, and that this has always been a league where more teams make the playoffs than don't. Bruce Arena's Galaxy teams were famous for doing nothing for the first half or more of a season, then turning it on late. Problem is, Portland's teams haven't been as talented as some of those LAG teams, so while they were able to turn it on late, they rarely turned it into anything other than early playoff exits most years.
What would be a better system though, if not pro /rel?
I think the structure of MLS sort of forces the situation.
If a bottom of the table team can't fight against relegation , or fight for promotion, and there aren't solid financial reasons to remain in the top league, what do people have to cheer for towards the end of the season?
Getting into the playoffs, or failing that, winning some other trophy - Leagues Cup, Cascadia Cup, etc.
I didn't say anything one way or the other about whether MLS' system was good or bad. It is what it is, and it's not gonna change (and I like the playoffs). But given that a majority of teams make the playoffs, it stands to reason that some teams will just tick over in neutral until they have to turn it on to qualify for the playoffs.
I guess it comes down to incentive. This system gives fans more incentive to attend matches- dangling the playoffs - but it gives the teams less incentive to grind it out throughout the whole season.
Don't teams really have to do that, though? I mean, Toronto in 2017 and LAFC are the only 2 teams that won SS/MLS cup recently. And both of those teams were stacked. Salary caps keep teams from adding depth that allows them to do both.
Not at all! Just look 180 miles north of here. The Sounders are in the SS conversation more years than they aren't, which means they take the entirety of the regular season seriously. Even if they don't win the SS (except one time), they're at least in position to do it most every season.
A number of teams in the Eastern Conference, which in case nobody's noticed is actually better than the West at this point in MLS' development, also take the entire season seriously.
I'm not talking about automatically winning the SS/MLS Cup. But it's entirely possible to build a team that cares about games in March as much as it does games in September - but that's down to coaching as much as it is talent on the roster.
That 2016 year was when Sigi Schmid got fired mid-season, after a disastrous loss in Kansas City where his team clearly quit on him.
After Schmid was fired, they only lost twice in their last 14 games under their new, and still current, coach. I think that's less "taking it easy" and more doing the same thing that the Timbers did this year - greatly underperforming under a long-term coach and hitting rock bottom before a change was made.
At any rate, yes, it is possible for teams to take the entire season seriously, and we are in agreement that the Timbers should definitely do that.
Gio, I never quite got the blue suits, but there was no denying your passion for the team and the game and your players. You had the best celebrations, even though sometimes I worried you were going to have an aneurysm. I really appreciate the work you did and some of the results your team had were and are some of my favorite memories of the team - winning the MLSiB, the wins over SKC (Blanco's screamer) and Seattle on the way to the title game. You were much more engaging and less arrogrant than Porter in press conferences, and I appreciated that. You probably didn't have to do too much coaching with Valeri and Ridgy on the squad, but when Valeri left, it really all came apart this year and I think you just ran out of ideas, or maybe you didn't have the ideas, or maybe you couldn't impart those ideas. I'm hoping you take the rest of your contract money and go on a nice vacation and recharge and learn and I am sure you will land on your feet because you obviously are a people person and can relate to just about anybody, and like any coach, you do have an ego in there. Good luck!
And now it is the Miles Joseph show. We've been clamoring for change and now it is here. I am excited to see what happens Saturday.
I guess I'm never going to find out what Gio-ball is!
Seriously though, I've had my suspicions that Gio, had the luck to have Valeri, Chara and Blanco in peak form and Gio did not get in the way. Some teams, like Spain's WT, can succeed despite the coaching staff and I think for 2-3 years the Timbers were that.
We went to the Timbers' meet and greet last night. Got a "free" hot dog and an over priced beer. Scored a dozen player autographs and all of the players seemed to be in good humor. I really enjoyed punking Evander and Bingham when I asked each of them if they'd heard the breaking news about who's been hired to replace Gio...I told them it was Ted Lasso and they both burst out laughing. That was fun. When I got to Bravo and said "Gio Out!" he flashed a wide smile and a gave a thumbs up. Pretty cool!
I had several of those hots dogs and too much "free" coca cola. Told Ivacic that we love him no matter what in Slovenian and he looked shocked and pleased. Told Moreno we need a Columbian coach now and he cracked up. Wrote BEAT VANCOUVER in the whiteboard in the dressing room. Good event. Glad I went.
"Where are the Timbers now? They have a reviled owner who covered for a sexual predator. They have an unproven, first-time general manager whose debut season has been a mess. They have a mediocre roster, falling attendance numbers, and a general atmosphere of instability.
"It’s ugly stuff, and it has been for some time now. In the turmoil of the last two years, which saw the departure of Diego Valeri and the firings of Wilkinson and Mike Golub, Savarese was always a class act—the one representative of the club who consistently conducted himself with grace and humility, who embraced the city and its values."
I do have to say that I have seen multiple vehement defenses of Gio over the last 18 hours since this news broke ... as though Gio was somehow going to be the lighthouse in the storm while failing at his own job (the lighthouse wasn't lit people!).
Valeri got old. Wilkinson and Golub were fired for good reason (see covering for sexual predator in previous paragraph).
You can't fire an owner. In a franchise system the parent company can force them to sell when they own a minority stake - often based on malevolent behavior clauses in their bylaws/operating agreements, but obviously they don't want to invoke those or they would have done so a year ago. MP is here, in the background, until he decides he is not. For those who can't accept that and choose to not partake, that is perfectly legit and your choice. Some people moved to Canada and Russia after the last couple of elections too because they could no longer be associated with America.
But holding up Gio's better qualities while ignoring his significant shortcomings as a coach - his primary job, while bashing the rest of the organization just seems like gratuitous intentional whining. I have seen several fans make similar complaints on line, that Gio was great and none of this is his fault - placing all of the blame for Gio's failures at the feet of Ned or GW or MP ... or Paul Riley which was the funniest comment I read on FB somewhere. None of that is true. While the whole organization certainly has challenges right now, where they go from here is to hire a new coach who can start over with a new philosophy and become a competitive team again. It isn't going to happen quickly and there will be pain and mis-steps along the way, but Gio had totally lost the locker room and wasn't the guy to do that.
I said above Gio is a good guy. I wish him well. But good guys who are failing at their job and all of their team has given up on them isn't the solution either.
"You can't fire an owner. In a franchise system the parent company can force them to sell when they own a minority stake - often based on malevolent behavior clauses in their bylaws/operating agreements, but obviously they don't want to invoke those or they would have done so a year ago."
Correct. MLS as the parent company has never done that. The threat of ultimately going that route is what finally got Dell Loy Hansen to sell RSL, but they didn't force a sale there. And Hank Paulson has been called a "model owner" by Don Garber, so I wouldn't hold my breath for it happening in Portland.
(I just bring that up as context, I don't disagree with anything you wrote)
Well now I just feel like the dog that caught the car. I'm sure I'll find something new to complain about soon enough though hahaha.
I'm totally willing to write the rest of this season off if it means the search for a permanent replacement is done right. That's obviously not a guarantee, but I'm glad they didn't just rush into a permanent decision now, and that they're taking the time to do a proper search.
My fear is that the Timbers will drag the search into next year and then we'll be giving the new coach a free pass because they only had a week of pre season.
Personally, I'd look at a few assistant managers in the Eredivisie. Let's find a coach who can coach a system and use it.
I would imagine, particularly if they miss the playoffs, that a new coach will be in place by the end of this calendar year. Which is still kinda tight, but workable.
yeah, I'm sure they have a list of both coaching candidates and potential available players - it would seem that the list of players might morph a bit depending on who they bring in as coach, but they're presumably ready for either occurrence at any time.
I have to say that I'm sad to see Gio go. I think he did some really good things with the Timbers, but it was also time for his tenure to come to an end. It will be interesting to see where the Timbers go from here, as it should be clear to the players that the status quo isn't going to cut it. We are either going to see a renewed effort, or the players will pack it up and close things down.
What I'm hopeful for is a more pressure oriented team, and some open and free soccer play.
respectfully disagree, I saw him tinker with the counter system when he took over and subsequently built nothing in terms of his own style or fingerprint on the team
After the last game and mostly poor run of form it’s not a surprise but I think the organization with MP at the helm is still in trouble. If you’re a solid head coach with a real resume what would convince you to manage here?
Without a big commitment to spend, drop dead wrought, and let a coach really build a team around an identity of play it’s going to be extremely hard to get anyone. Doubt the Timbers do much big spending and instead get a young DP and mid salary DP with a few tam additions. I’d like to be proven wrong but I’m not super optimistic about a new hire. Seems like it could be a Gio 2.0, lower level successful coach that comes in motivated and then goes out after a few seasons. Guess that’s kind of being a pro manager at this level though.
we have mabiala, blanco and goda coming off the books. MP has shown he is willing to roll the dice. Just need better scouting for the dice to come up 7s. Evander is clearly a class act, mosquera is top notch, Santi lots of promise. I would think the chance to add a few more pieces to that would entice a lot of coaches. Chance right away to find impact players that match your tactical expectations seems like a good draw
Blanco was a huge player here. If they had him in his prime it would be pretty amazing. There’s definitely holes to be filled and cap space. I’m not positive their willing to produce or that they have guys wanting to come here even if they scout the “right” guys.
I think the problem is the roster construction. We've brought in a number of young players and often hesitated at letting go of established older players. So we have a number of raw players and waning older players with very little in between.
Also, the problem with younger players like Moreno, is that they view the team has a stepping stone to greater things. That's okay in some respects, however when you have 4-5 players looking for the next big thing, they often neglect the present.
The main problem was the players brought in were not being used to execute a game model. We have two attacking full backs and wingers, which seems to dictate using width. However, we've never had forwards whose strength is crosses into the penalty area.
Ned said recently on Soccer Made in Portland that their focus on player signings in the near future will be on players in their prime. He said that they’ve focused on young players recently and that’s great, but now it’s time to get some in prime, ready to contribute players. Araujo-like signings, although hopefully better (though Araujo is still TBD on how good he will be)
interesting. I wonder if there are dollars available to get guys truly in their prime, and not on the decline phase of said prime for a discount. I'm trusting Ned at this point, he's done decently overall.
Yeah, I know a lot of dead money is rolling off the books - up to about 30% of payroll, theoretically, if everyone out of contract is let go and not renewed/options not picked up. The question for me is how much of it Ned will be allowed to spend. Hopefully all of it, but this team is such a mess right now I'm not taking that for granted.
As I said in the other thread, I don't have a list of names, but there's undoubtedly several assistant coaches on current coaching staffs that are looking for a step up and a challenge, and someone like that might not be the worst fit here.
I'd love a 'big name' coach too, but also don't forget, CP was a college coach for most of his career before he came to Portland and he absolutely fit your arc, so another coach in that vein wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, if Ned gets the hire right.
But I do agree that MP being at the helm is not ideal; sadly that's not gonna change, though, so I guess all we can do is hope we're overstating that risk.
On current assistants, depends on which team. Also those guys are used to and will demand a well run organization that will spend to the best of it abailities. MP, yeah, is unfortunately going to be a hurdle. Who wants to work for a guy who basically covered up sexual harassment? And let's not forget taht even though Ned appears to be an ok guy, he' doesn't yet have much of a track recordfor success.
The silver lining for whomever we hire - especially if we go foreign - is that Ned probably understamds weird salary cap/roster rules as well as anyone. Not saying he's Chris Henderson or Ernst Tanner but there are worst GMs in the league than him.
i don't necessarily have a list - ok, I do but those guys already have gigs and probably aren't going to drop whatever they're oding to now to save us. For now, I can think of a coule of names: Feretti, BJ Callaghan, Kah, etc. Even Marsch (gulp). As for international - just don't hire Phil Neville or Sam Allardyce. Hey, what is Pirlo doint these days - I'd give him an interview.
How about the Timbers emulate what Philly does for him. Get a long-term identity, get a solid academy to train kids in said identity so we have a steady stream of kids they can call up. Then get solid DPs and some other mls players to round it out.
Don’t follow the Union closely so don’t know much about his tactics, flexibility, sub patterns etc. But I do know his guys play for him. I could see that when they came to PP last year. A manager who commands the respect, the belief of the players, is just as important as tactics etc., maybe more so. I hope the search takes that into consideration.
Yeah, and there’s a good chance they get another guy in that vein. Despite the last two seasons Gio has been the winningest coach here in MLS. Long term success with guys like Paulson at the helm sounds likely wishful thinking.
The real question is whether MP understands that it is now the era of MLS 4.0 - thanks in part to Messi. Moneyball isn't going to work if you don't have an academy and can leverage all your resources - especially in a small market. If he wants to hire some unproven (coaching-wise as I don't think mls experience is necessary) individual at the pro-level or someone whose expereince is solely at youth level - then well we'll be right back to square one in a few years.
Is there anyone around Peregrine that can tell MP to get real? To maybe just sell the team or at least take on additional investors so we can have better resources? Is there any "no guy" in the building who can read him the riot act? Same for Ned. Does he understand that we need a tactical identity and a game plan to compete in a Messi-era league? And no offense to Ned but I'm not sure his idea of soccer is what excities fans. For all I know, he thinks it ok to go play 1990s era usa nats style. Or even the dreaded mepty bucket.
"Moneyball isn't going to work if you don't have an academy and can leverage all your resources"
I'm sorry to be pedantic, and I'm not picking on you, but I see the word "moneyball" thrown around a lot, by a lot of people and...this isn't what moneyball is.
"Moneyball", by definition, is spending your limited funds on players with skillsets that other teams do not value, thus getting value where other teams don't see it. In baseball, "moneyball" started with the A's finding players who maybe had low batting averages, but had insanely high on base percentages; the A's realized that you can't score runs without being on base, so they got guys who could get on base.
As the OBP skill got valued, teams started casting a wider net and trying to find other undervalued skillsets; every team staffed up their analytics departments in the arms race to perfect that hunt. Now, every team has a robust analytics department and "moneyball" is less about finding undervalued skillsets as it is about maximizing outcomes. All the rule changes MLB implemented this season were in part a reaction to that shift in outlook; baseball had become purely about strikeouts and home runs, thanks to analytics.
All this is to say that "moneyball" as a concept doesn't really exist in soccer; there are no undervalued skillsets, because the game, as a true team game, is fundamentally different from baseball, which is an individual sport (batter v . pitcher, batter v. outfielder) masquerading as a team game.
Soccer teams obviously also have analytics, but they're used vastly differently, and can't be depended on for projection nearly as much as baseball stats can.
"To maybe just sell the team or at least take on additional investors so we can have better resources?"
Honestly, that would be an OK outcome in a world where MP is never gonna sell. Build out an ownership group of 10 or so wealthy people who can inject money and new ideas into the club.
If there are no undervalued skillsets, why do I see a lot of guys who can run and maybe dribble, but can't pass and definitely can't finish? I'm sure there are a lot of guys who may be undervalued because they are a half-step slower but can cross on a dime and finish.
I think there is a lot of room for improvement in the soccer world in the US, and if any team is going to need "moneyball" to get an edge, why not the Timbers.
St. Louis seems like a good example of a team that has what you need, a couple of key stars, and a bunch of hard working "undervalued" players.
The key to any team, though, is that elusive "chemistry" that makes players want to play for each other. I think ultimately that was what was failing Gio because he rarely settled on an 11 and had a rotating cast. I think it created an environment where guys were pitted against each other and they started looking out for themselves. I don't have high hopes that the team can all of a sudden start playing for each other now that Gio is gone.
"I'm sure there are a lot of guys who may be undervalued because they are a half-step slower but can cross on a dime and finish."
If they can finish, they're almost certainly valued properly or close to it.
My whole point with explaining "moneyball" is that soccer is (obviously) fundamentally different from baseball as a sport. Baseball is a sport where every play has a discrete, narrow set of outcomes determined by a single individual (pitch can be hit or missed, ball can be hit or missed, fielding play can be made or missed), so it's pretty straightforward to assign a value to each of those events.
Soccer, of course, is a waaaaaaaay more fluid game that relies almost entirely on teamwork to be successful. An individual player can bring skills to the table, for sure, but if those skills don't mesh with how the team as a whole plays, they're not as valuable. Which doesn't make that player a bad player, just a bad fit in a particular system.
And through all this, I mean "value" as a concrete number that can be measured against other players in a similar role, not as a subjective judgment of a player's ability. Soccer, although it's trying, does not lend itself to that kind of analysis because of its wholly team-based nature; it's often hard to do an apples-to-apples for midfielder X vs. midfielder Y, because of the roles they play in their particular teams.
"The key to any team, though, is that elusive "chemistry" that makes players want to play for each other."
This, 100%. Look at PSG for the best example of this - they spent the last 4-5 years assembling the biggest pile of talent one team has seen since the RM teams of the mid-2000's, and yet PSG has nothing to show for it but a pile of Ligue Un trophies they would win even without those talents.
Aaaaaaalllll this to say that analytics in soccer are not a bad thing, but they aren't nearly as mature as they need to be to be of serious use. So I don't really look at St Louis and see "undervalued" players, as much as I see players who may not get a lot of headlines but who work very well in that particular system for that particular coach. But none of it is "moneyball".
That may just be semantics, but it makes sense to me in my head...hahaha
Moneyball as a term now seems to be co-opted and mainstreamed to be used in a way not originally intended but I get the intent if not the semantics! ;)
I'm not really up on all the analytics. Players are rated individually and within a system of play. The better coaches and scouts can see and identify players who will fit what they want. The worse coaches will identify types of players - maybe from a physical standpoint - and then project that they can make them a better player.
Take a guy like Robert Taylor. It's not like that guy all of a sudden became a better player who had no skills. He was good before Messi came, but now can shine a little brighter with a better player.
"Take a guy like Robert Taylor...He was good before Messi came, but now can shine a little brighter with a better player."
The challenge with analytics in soccer is that almost all the useful, deep-dive ones are behind the Opta paywall (and a couple others). Teams pay thousands of dollars a year for that data, and the general public is left with crumbs that they then try to reverse engineer a cookie out of.
If more data were public, like it is in (checks notes) literally every other sport, it would be easier to see WHY a Robert Taylor plays better with a Leo Messi, other than the obvious "it's Messi, duh", but soccer has decided that 95% of the useful information on player performance should be proprietary, so we basically just have to guess.
And yes, a lot of folks are getting better at guessing, which is great, but without a full data picture, it's all just guessing.
It's good that teams have access to that info, though, and it's good they're starting to use it to inform decisions.
It's not an either/or, though. Coaches can absolutely see how a player does, and they will always be able to; the numbers can help them figure out *why* the players do what they do, and what combinations of players work best together based on how the coach wants to play.
Teams are using analytics all the time now, whether we see it or not; they're not the be-all-end-all of anything, they're just another tool in the box. I just wish more of those tools were, as in other sports, more widely available to the public to play with.
Well, at least now we know Ned has power. Has felt like a vacuum ever since he took over after GW and MG were canned and MP agreed to be a "silent owner".
I wish Gio well, I truly do. He seems like a really great guy and loves the game I love. But this also had to be done. If it wasn't for the miraculous 2021 MLS Cup run (still lost, but made the final against all odds and then lost on PKs - can't come much closer) I think he would have been gone sooner.
We have been adrift now for almost 2 full seasons, playing out the strings of former legends waiting for them to retire, bringing in a few new players who have mostly underwhelmed. Serious FO turmoil and then a remake that, as mentioned above, seemed to create a question of who was really in charge.
I suspect there will be more surprises as we build for a new coach. I mentioned in the other thread that in August of 2012 it seemed bizarre that we suddenly traded away Troy Perkins, brought in Donovan Ricketts instead. That was all the future coach calling some shots, before even being announced as coach. I won't be shocked if we see more of that and some head scratching moves before the game plan crystalizes.
"Well, at least now we know Ned has power" do we though? Maybe this was a Heather Davis decision (LOL just kidding, for those who don't know because she's invisible Heather Davis is the supposed CEO of the Timbers) maybe it was a Paulson decision (based on his gushing goodbye letter, I'm guessing not). Maybe Gio recognizing that the locker room is lost and ship is sinking actually parted ways? We may never know.
I think the FOs of many pro teams are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They intentionally market potential and personalities. They want fans to love the players. Many smaller cities / clubs have fans who are "all in" and super emotionally invested in the players as people. Heck, I am even seeing this with Gio right now and people who want to point fingers and make excuses, who think Gio's personality and past "almosts" (and yeah, I guess the COVID cup) should be enough to grant him something akin to academic tenure - even if currently failing.
Fans get attached and I think FOs like Portland's have to consider that when making changes. It does hinder their competitiveness when they have to consider fan backlash. There probably are certain players who are essentially untouchable at their prime AND the team is successful simultaneously. I mean who wants a team to be one of the best in the league and move their best player out with no reasonable plan to bring in something better immediately? However right now is NOT that moment for PTFC, so as you said elsewhere, every player is potentially movable, no matter how painful that may be (D. Chara would be the most painful for me personally, so I would hope what happened is we bring in a 23 year old destroyer 6 and he becomes the backup, transitioning to a FO position in a couple of years).
Agree with you that a hot run at the right moment was Gio's peak. Our performance during the Leagues Cup suggested we were trying to do the same, but just were not good enough (which is what happens to older teams who are clearly on the back side of their excellence window). That window was closing rapidly in 2021 and we still managed to find some magic at the right moment and luck our way into hosting MLS cup due to many upsets in the East. We didn't go out and find players better than Valeri, Chara, Adi, etc ... we tried to continue to do it with journeymen who were good, but not great.
100% on your D. Chara take. I would love for him to be a backup, spot-starter 6 the next year or two who mentors his replacement, be it Ayala or someone else. Then retires, stays with the team in some capacity and makes Portland his permanent home. The sticking points are that both he and the team have to realize that that's the best move for him and the team in the transition to the new era. And that he's okay with Yimmi being moved out of a DP slot or moved on from TImbers altogether. Might be a tough sell.
If the only thing keeping Diego Chara happy right now is that his brother plays here, the Timbers have done a lot of things very wrong. This is a business; Y Chara's out of contract, so his status will by necessity change. I personally hope it changes to "he's wearing a different shirt next year", but Diego's a professional athlete and understands how this all works, so hopefully can handle whatever happens to his brother.
Yimmi is under contract next year. I think I saw something on transfrmarket once that showed it (and not always reliable), but people I trust all say he's still under contract next year.
I hope you're right. Also there's the fact that Diego was brought in as a DP and is no longer, so maybe he'd understand it as the natural progression as you get older and the team looks to improve by opening up DP slots. That's if Timbers want to bring Yimmi back at all. I'm pretty much 50/50 at this point re: bringing him back at a lesser contract or not resigning him at all.
I am 100/0 to not bring him back. I'm also not sure why the Timbers have to/would ever make roster moves only once they consider the feelings of other players on the roster.
I would certainly hope they don't. But Yimmi was signed as a DP when there wasn't a lot of demand for him in MLS (at least as a DP), or other major leagues, as I recall, so maybe just a coincidence that his brother is a club legend?
Oh, not at all - he was signed in no small part because Diego wanted him here. And I hated it at that point, and I hate it even more now.
It would have been fine if YC had been cheaper and better. Or even one of the two. But here we are, three years in, and he's overpriced and not good enough, and even DC should know that's not a recipe for sticking around, brother or otherwise. If losing YC from the team makes Diego that upset, well, maybe it's time for DC to collect his well-earned flowers as well, because sentimentality should not be a roster construction consideration.
"Timbers have the strange habit of selling well before a player hits their stride (Jebo, Farfan just off the top of my head)"
I fully and totally blame Gio for the Jebo sale. He refused to play him in his best position and insisted on playing him out wide, despite plenty of evidence that he wasn't as effective out there, until Jebo finally got sick enough of that to want out.
Portland does have an "insular" issue, I think, but Jebo's not a case of that, his was all about Gio not playing him to his best.
"2021 Cup final was nice but for those keen to this stuff, it was Gio's ceiling not a new dawn."
If I was in that position that is what I would ask for. Most die hard fans knew months ago that Gio wasn't cutting it - but I just had a quick conversation with several people who feel "blindsided" and "can't believe it". Classic insular Portland, they like the person therefore failure is acceptable and excusable.
Those not paying attention or with irrational thought processes are going to be pissed that we release a very injured Niezgoda, don't resign Blanco, bid adieu to Mabiala, part ways with Y Chara. And I honestly won't be shocked if between 1 and 3 of the players who we thought we were building the future with (meaning McGraw, Bravo, Evander, Moreno and Mosquera leave the team in the off season) along with potentially Asprilla and outside chance of even seeing D. Chara moved on since this is a natural "break". Many fans are going to be apoplectic about those moves - you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them. Much better to be starting in December/Jan and look like a builder rather than a destroyer in September.
You're talking about turning over 7-9 starting-caliber positions on the roster. Name me a team that has done that recently. I wish that kind of change was possible, I really do, but that's just not realistic. There's no way that either D Chara, a club legend who still contributes positively, or Evander, who they paid $10M to acquire less than a year ago, are going anywhere, nor should they.
Niezgoda, Blanco, Y Chara, Mabiala are all out of contract, and it's a no brainer not to bring any of them back. Beyond that, I think maaaaybe Asprilla goes (he should, but he's also the kind of guy a lot of fans love, so they may keep him), but otherwise I think the pieces are there to build around once those guys are gone.
"you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them."
You also don't want to be a new coach coming in whose first job is "build an entire squad from scratch, in a winter window that really only allows you to get MLS talent before training starts in earnest because summer is the main window".
If a European team comes and offers $12m for Evander tomorrow and he wants to go, you don't even consider it?
I am not saying we actively try to move that much of the roster, but it really depends on who the coach is, how happy those guys really are (and how happy they think they can be under whomever the new name is), and the vision for the future.
I am not saying fire sale, but I suspect there are offers out there for some of the younger guys who may not fit into the vision of the new coach. If they are good offers, why hamstring the new coach with players he doesn't want?
Even if it was less than the $10m we paid for him, we'd have to think about it. Is he really just having a terrible season? Did we bring in a 6 and expect him to be a 10 as some have suggested? Can he be the player we need in 2024 and beyond?
Because MLS is a better league than when Diego Valeri arrived. We need a player better than Valeri if we hope to replicate past successes.
Nobody is untouchable, absolutely, and if someone offered more for Evander than the Timbers paid, I'd be OK with it. But that's not going to happen.
"Is he really just having a terrible season?"
I mean, no? He's only got five goals, but his passing and vision is probably the best on the team at this point, and his low goal total is probably also due in part to the quality, or lack thereof, of service he's getting from his current teammates.
Evander's not really one of the Timbers' main problems. It's building a team around Evander, around Moreno, and around the new guys that will show us how good Evander can be. Don't give up on him based on this trash fire of a season.
I agree that Evander certainly isn't the main problem; he's arguably the team's best player this year (with McGraw getting a shout too). But he's been suspended twice this year, in Leagues Cup obviously but also in MLS once. He needs to quickly up his maturity and demonstrate more calmness on the pitch. Can't agree on building around Moreno. He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth, and he's clearly stated he wants to go to Europe soon. Best case IMO, is we bring him back next year with new coach and hope his form dramatically improves. If so, sell him mid-season to a 2nd tier European league or a S. America side at a profit. If he' plays well, he'll want to move and should be accommodated. If he's not good next year, that'll be 2 years straight under two different coaches and a clear sign we shouldn't build the team around him.
"He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth"
Are you sure about that? How do you know? What little I've read seems to indicate his problems were with Gio; I'm willing to give him the time/space to prove that now Gio's gone he can develop into the player I think he can be.
How do I know he doesn't want to be here? Well I don't really know for sure. I'm making my best guess based on his words and actions. Shortly after he signed w/ PTFC, I recall he said something of the effect he wanted to go to Europe soon (maybe not his exact words). Given that he's been here 2.5 years, I'm assuming soon is either now or in the very near future.
He also went AWOL from his team in the middle of this season, to fly to another hemisphere. Would that choice be prompted solely by disagreement with a coach? Seems an extreme reaction to just that. The reporting earlier in the season indicated he wanted a transfer and/or his contract renegotiated with a big bump in salary. He's since denied requesting a transfer (which I don't find particularly credible). He hasn't denied wanting his contract renegotiated. Gio wasn't in charge of contract negotiations, I'm pretty sure, so removing Gio doesn't remove that source of friction. And I have heard nothing to indicated he's abandoned his dream of playing in Europe.
As I wrote earlier, from my viewpoint the best case is he exceeds his previous form next year under a new coach/system and increases his value by next summer. So I'm willing to give him time/space. I'm assuming he'll still want to leave. If he's playing really well and can put his Europe desire on hold, and can demonstrate his commitment to staying with the team in at least the medium term, then by all means keep him. But after abandoning his team this season, he would have to clear a pretty high bar for me to trust him.
Of those 7, though, only Ricketts and Valeri were nailed-on starters. The rest were depth pieces - Kah and Urutti worked their way into starting spots but, at least in Kah's case, that's because he was the best of a bad set of options.
Churning depth is something teams do almost all the time, yes. A complete overhaul of a starting squad, as the first comment in this thread seems to suggest the Timbers will do, is not common at all.
The Timbers are in a good place right now because several of their lesser-performing starters are out of contract this winter, but I am highly skeptical there will be like-for-like replacements brought in for each departure from outside. There'll be a mix of buys and promotions, like most years.
I mean, either way, the Timbers should look a lot different next season; I'm just skeptical it'll be "cut seven, hire seven new guys".
This, especially the insular Portland line. I truly hope McGraw sticks around, and maybe 1 or 2 others you mentioned. But I am ready for a rebuild. Much as I love him, I hope and pray we're not planning on keeping Chara till he's 40, as he's already showing that he's mortal and he hasn't saved us from sucking the last couple years anyway. And we never would have signed Yimmi as a DP if his last name wasn't Chara. Not that I blame Diego for that, but he prob won't be happy if we move on from Yimmi as we should. Cue the insular Portlanders who believe their sports heroes will never age out.
I'm not necessarily saying that a new coach doesn't start calling the shots sooner rather than later (in 2012 we traded Perkins and brought in Ricketts only 2.5 weeks after Spencer was fired - and that was all Porter calling that move).
Some of this may be opportunities arise and different clubs want to BUY these guys, not that the coach doesn't want them. Then it becomes a discussion of what is best for the club over the next 1-2 years and does selling a Bravo or McGraw or Moreno put you in a better position to replace them with someone who fits the style of the incoming coach and possibly even upgrade.
All, I am saying is that Gio essentially came in and accepted Porter's roster, most new coaches are not going to want to do that and are going to be very willing to turn over players at the very start of their tenure so they can build what they want quickly.
I think this is a mistake, we need a coach who can come in and start untangling the mess right away so he gets a good start for next year. 2024 season is a project that needs to start yesterday
I would wager that the roster will look a lot different next year, with a lot of players being out of contract. There's no point in rushing a hire to try to make sense of this pile of dirty laundry; let the new guy come in in December and work with Ned to start building a roster that's his own. It'll take a few windows to do properly, but there's literally no point to bringing in a permanent head coach right now, as opposed to post-season.
So I think people are pretty quickly going to be regretting this. Get ready for a few seasons of hiring someone who doesn' t work out and then replacing them. Gio was a class act better than the club deserved at this point in time.
Oh, I dunno, how about that PTFC is a dumpster fire of an organization right now, with an owner trying to sell half the club to get out from under a multi-year sexual harassment scandal involving a former coach? Or a roster that combines chronically injured older players with under-performing DPs? I just don't see how Gio made this picture worse at all but I see a lot of ways in which having a class act made things better. And for the people out there who think 1) Marsch; 2) Klinsmann (????); or 3) an unnamed college coach waiting in the wings who is about to be named are going to make things better, as I said, get ready for a revolving door of coaches, few if any of whom will have Gio's personal abilities to hold things together. It's going to be crazy town.
"I just don't see how Gio made this picture worse at all"
It is literally a coach's job to make the disparate parts of a roster, whatever that roster looks like, work together to play to the best of their abilities. Gio, over the last 2+ seasons, couldn't do that.
It can definitely be argued that the pieces he had to work with aren't the best in the game, but that's not what cost Gio his job - the problem is that Gio couldn't make a cohesive unit out of what he had. Which, again, was his job.
"few if any of whom will have Gio's personal abilities to hold things together"
Ask Santiago Moreno, Dario Zuparic, or Aljaz Ivacic how well Gio was able to "hold things together". Something tells me you won't get the answer you think you will.
I also find it quite interesting, this American pro sports understanding, that the GM is playing fantasy sports with the owner's money and just going out and buying a bunch of maybe cohesive players, maybe not. That the coach's only role is to somehow take all of those pieces and make a successful team out of them.
While there is a kernel of truth tho this (perhaps even stronger in bygone eras) in MLB and the NBA, modern teams intimately involve coaching in decisions over who to bring in and who to trade. Every single player on this roster right now, except Diego Chara and Asprilla were new in the Gio era. I can promise you that if Chara and Asprilla were felt to the problem, Gio would have talked GW or NG into moving them out over the last 6 years.
By 2019/20 this was the team Gio wanted, otherwise players would not have been brought in or re-signed.
If the players brought in and re-signed under your tenure in don't have chemistry or are creating off field problems -- that is fully on you, coach. If you can solve that - great, good job. If you can't, well you are not going to keep the job for very long, deservedly so.
Yeah, for sure the coach has input, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise, that was poor phrasing on my part. The GM ultimately says yay or nay, but the coach has varying degrees of input; soccer also arguably has far more managerial input to roster decisions than most sports (tangentially: baseball managers have virtually no input these days, it's almost all the GM, and that also includes picking game-day rosters).
But whoever brings in the players, it's on the coach to make those players work as a unit. Even when there's injuries, international call-ups, or suspensions, the manager's literal job is to make a team a team. That's not his only role, but it is a very important one. Gio couldn't do that.
We'll see, I suppose, but I don't see anyway this roster could have been held together given 1) constant injuries; 2) pieces that don't work; and 3) lots and lots of off the field drama. The rumor throughout Gio's time (and before him Porter's time) is that the FO calls the personnel shots, and expects the coaches to clean it up. The reason Gio is walking rather than MP or NG is that, well, he's the one who could be fired. I think Gio has shown a good record of taking a mediocre hand and getting the best out of it, up until the last year, which has been a shit show for all of the reasons I mentioned. The more I think about it, though, the more it seems to me that Gio has gotten the better end of this bargain. Meanwhile, we're going to get either a moonshine selling BS'er or an MLS 1.0 retread who will talk about playing a 4-3-3 as if saying on cue that you're going to play "attractive, attacking soccer" can do anything to make that actually happen IRL.
You could very well be right, but we don’t know if we don’t try. The mediocre at best play cannot be allowed to continue. We all know this organization has a lot of problems, but the coach is always going to be the first domino to fall, so fall it must
Wow, I didn't think Ned would pull the trigger during the season. I've been a Gio defender, but this loss coupled with the very public disagreements with players absolutely forced Ned's hand. The good times were great with Gio, but it's been a miserable couple of seasons and this team lacks an identity as currently constructed.
“The good times were great with Gio.” Sure there were some fun moments. But it was mainly a root canal without nitrous.
Even the good times with Gio was kind of unconvincing to me. Sure, it was nice to win the "MLS is back" trophy and make the cup finals twice but like we sorta go there playing the kind of ball that only fans of a team could appreciate. I always felt that Gio ball was unsustainable in the long run given the progress the league's been making the last few years. now with Messi the bar has been raised. Maybe Ned felt he had to pull the trigger now or we would get lost in the Messi-led wave.
The good times were only ok and at best good with Gio, not great. Timbers continue to have the same issues they always have. Mental issues where their play is subpar until it matters (playoffs) where they overachieve and then flounder in the final (all but the build better back, covid cup, or whatever it was called). BTW, that is an issue that went across Porter AND Gio, and someone in the Front office needs to figure out WHY. He was also outcoached by more than one coach across more than a few games. All in all i thought he was good for the first few years; however, seemed to get worse the more players he got to form HIS team. Thanks Gio, All the best on your future endeavors.
Hosting the MLS Cup is great.
Regardless of context.
His time has come. He was failed, but also failed. We don’t have to pretend like he doesn’t know the shape of a soccer ball. He did some good things here. And a couple of great things. Fun guy. Decent guy, unless you’re an AR.
Hopeful in moving on. But the Gio bashing (there should be some post-mortem criticism, certainly) should stop now and maybe we can reflect on some of his achievements as well. Despite how this place has talked about Gio every time a player makes a dipshit pass, there were some GREAT successes.
Yeah, #CampGioOut was focused on a few dipshit passes here and there...
No one is arguing there weren't successes. There obviously were. Covid Cup was really fun, and the team was clicking. Yeah the 21 playoff run was great, and having an MLS Cup at home was amazing, even with the loss.
My issue, and the issue of a lot of people, was the overarching timbre of the seasons under Gio. It wasn't fun to watch. The Timbers did not play attractive, engaging soccer for the vast majority of every season under Gio. The entertainment value wa abysmal.
Sure, they'd cork off some big wins here and there (loved that PTFC had the best of the Sounders during his reign). But then they'd get embarrassingly trounced. At home. The random highs were high, but the frequent lows were very low. Two weeks of hot play at the end of the season will always struggle to make up for six or seven months of derpy, incohesive, and listless soccer. But I suppose for some fans, the ends justify the means, and all that matters is that fleeting hot run in the playoffs.
So yeah, Gio presided over some fun moments. He sure seemed a decent tournament coach. But stylistically, what imprint is he leaving behind? What players are significantly better than they were when they arrived? On a football basis, how has the club grown under his tutelage? And, most importantly, what the hell was GioBall? I don't think anyone will remember what GioBall was, because no one can actually articulate what it is. And therein lies the heart of the problem, imho. This club has zero identity on the pitch. And that comes full circle to the issue a lot of us have had with Gio.
Wish him well. Seems like a great human. I bet kids and dogs like him. But I've never been a fan of him as a coach, and seriously doubt I'll look back on the Gio Era with much fondness other than good times with friends in the stands.
But that is the past. It is time to move forward. This is a pivotal moment for the club. I hope Ned & Co are up for the challenge, and I hope MP can dredge up some of the ambition he used to have and allow this club to grow.
Onward, Rose City.
"Gio Ball"
It's backyard soccer at breakneck speed.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Agree: it’s time to move forward. And I strongly hope the style is elevated.
I will stop the Gio bashing. I will also stop thinking about Gio almost entirely and move on to the next.
I'm already sharpening my knives for ______ Bashing lol.
Please explain how I am either Gio bashing or saying that he didn't have good achievements. I didn't, I specifically said there was good!
This is me misplacing some angst. Good point, I hope, poorly placed.
We can argue about good vs great, but you weren’t bashing. I apologize.
The biggest mystery to me is why the team has made the same defensive mistakes year after year across coaches. It's like the fundamentals don't exist--horror show back post marking, falling asleep, out of sync offside plays, facing our own goal too much, penalties conceded... The team has often been talented if mercurial in attack under both Porter and Gio, the defense has been juvenile for most of the team's MLS tenure.
The whole cold start, hot finish has really been with this team since I can remember both under Porter and Gio. It almost makes me wonder if there are huge bonuses attached to winning the cup and management said it is okay to just do well enough in the regular season as long as you go far in the playoffs.
I honestly think that it's more a league-wide byproduct of the fact that 65% of teams make the playoffs, and that this has always been a league where more teams make the playoffs than don't. Bruce Arena's Galaxy teams were famous for doing nothing for the first half or more of a season, then turning it on late. Problem is, Portland's teams haven't been as talented as some of those LAG teams, so while they were able to turn it on late, they rarely turned it into anything other than early playoff exits most years.
What would be a better system though, if not pro /rel?
I think the structure of MLS sort of forces the situation.
If a bottom of the table team can't fight against relegation , or fight for promotion, and there aren't solid financial reasons to remain in the top league, what do people have to cheer for towards the end of the season?
Getting into the playoffs, or failing that, winning some other trophy - Leagues Cup, Cascadia Cup, etc.
I didn't say anything one way or the other about whether MLS' system was good or bad. It is what it is, and it's not gonna change (and I like the playoffs). But given that a majority of teams make the playoffs, it stands to reason that some teams will just tick over in neutral until they have to turn it on to qualify for the playoffs.
I guess it comes down to incentive. This system gives fans more incentive to attend matches- dangling the playoffs - but it gives the teams less incentive to grind it out throughout the whole season.
Don't teams really have to do that, though? I mean, Toronto in 2017 and LAFC are the only 2 teams that won SS/MLS cup recently. And both of those teams were stacked. Salary caps keep teams from adding depth that allows them to do both.
Not at all! Just look 180 miles north of here. The Sounders are in the SS conversation more years than they aren't, which means they take the entirety of the regular season seriously. Even if they don't win the SS (except one time), they're at least in position to do it most every season.
A number of teams in the Eastern Conference, which in case nobody's noticed is actually better than the West at this point in MLS' development, also take the entire season seriously.
I'm not talking about automatically winning the SS/MLS Cup. But it's entirely possible to build a team that cares about games in March as much as it does games in September - but that's down to coaching as much as it is talent on the roster.
Sounders? They were bottom of the table in 2016 and 17 when they made the cup due to getting hot. 6th overall in 2020. 2019 a respectable 4th.
I think they learned in 2014 teams can't go all in to get both and finally won.
And to be clear, this stinking it up from early on by ptfc for the last 10 years has to stop.
That 2016 year was when Sigi Schmid got fired mid-season, after a disastrous loss in Kansas City where his team clearly quit on him.
After Schmid was fired, they only lost twice in their last 14 games under their new, and still current, coach. I think that's less "taking it easy" and more doing the same thing that the Timbers did this year - greatly underperforming under a long-term coach and hitting rock bottom before a change was made.
At any rate, yes, it is possible for teams to take the entire season seriously, and we are in agreement that the Timbers should definitely do that.
Gio, I never quite got the blue suits, but there was no denying your passion for the team and the game and your players. You had the best celebrations, even though sometimes I worried you were going to have an aneurysm. I really appreciate the work you did and some of the results your team had were and are some of my favorite memories of the team - winning the MLSiB, the wins over SKC (Blanco's screamer) and Seattle on the way to the title game. You were much more engaging and less arrogrant than Porter in press conferences, and I appreciated that. You probably didn't have to do too much coaching with Valeri and Ridgy on the squad, but when Valeri left, it really all came apart this year and I think you just ran out of ideas, or maybe you didn't have the ideas, or maybe you couldn't impart those ideas. I'm hoping you take the rest of your contract money and go on a nice vacation and recharge and learn and I am sure you will land on your feet because you obviously are a people person and can relate to just about anybody, and like any coach, you do have an ego in there. Good luck!
And now it is the Miles Joseph show. We've been clamoring for change and now it is here. I am excited to see what happens Saturday.
Wait, can Ned also fire the current owner, as well? Might as well fix both issues facing the Timbers at once...
no
🙏
Smell ya later Gio! Man, it's about time. Hopefully we hire someone that has a fun style, or at minimum one that isn't physically painful to watch.
ABOUT FUCKING TIME
I guess I'm never going to find out what Gio-ball is!
Seriously though, I've had my suspicions that Gio, had the luck to have Valeri, Chara and Blanco in peak form and Gio did not get in the way. Some teams, like Spain's WT, can succeed despite the coaching staff and I think for 2-3 years the Timbers were that.
Gio-ball is Cosmos-ball in green, and sometimes hideous pink, uniforms.
I am hoping a strong assistant from Europe or someone with some European coaching experience.
I'm hoping for a Colombian coach actually.
I'm hoping for the best coach the Timbers can find, regardless of provenance.
Me too, I'm kidding.
We went to the Timbers' meet and greet last night. Got a "free" hot dog and an over priced beer. Scored a dozen player autographs and all of the players seemed to be in good humor. I really enjoyed punking Evander and Bingham when I asked each of them if they'd heard the breaking news about who's been hired to replace Gio...I told them it was Ted Lasso and they both burst out laughing. That was fun. When I got to Bravo and said "Gio Out!" he flashed a wide smile and a gave a thumbs up. Pretty cool!
I had several of those hots dogs and too much "free" coca cola. Told Ivacic that we love him no matter what in Slovenian and he looked shocked and pleased. Told Moreno we need a Columbian coach now and he cracked up. Wrote BEAT VANCOUVER in the whiteboard in the dressing room. Good event. Glad I went.
Excellent!
"Where are the Timbers now? They have a reviled owner who covered for a sexual predator. They have an unproven, first-time general manager whose debut season has been a mess. They have a mediocre roster, falling attendance numbers, and a general atmosphere of instability.
"It’s ugly stuff, and it has been for some time now. In the turmoil of the last two years, which saw the departure of Diego Valeri and the firings of Wilkinson and Mike Golub, Savarese was always a class act—the one representative of the club who consistently conducted himself with grace and humility, who embraced the city and its values."
— Abe Asher in the Merc
I do have to say that I have seen multiple vehement defenses of Gio over the last 18 hours since this news broke ... as though Gio was somehow going to be the lighthouse in the storm while failing at his own job (the lighthouse wasn't lit people!).
Valeri got old. Wilkinson and Golub were fired for good reason (see covering for sexual predator in previous paragraph).
You can't fire an owner. In a franchise system the parent company can force them to sell when they own a minority stake - often based on malevolent behavior clauses in their bylaws/operating agreements, but obviously they don't want to invoke those or they would have done so a year ago. MP is here, in the background, until he decides he is not. For those who can't accept that and choose to not partake, that is perfectly legit and your choice. Some people moved to Canada and Russia after the last couple of elections too because they could no longer be associated with America.
But holding up Gio's better qualities while ignoring his significant shortcomings as a coach - his primary job, while bashing the rest of the organization just seems like gratuitous intentional whining. I have seen several fans make similar complaints on line, that Gio was great and none of this is his fault - placing all of the blame for Gio's failures at the feet of Ned or GW or MP ... or Paul Riley which was the funniest comment I read on FB somewhere. None of that is true. While the whole organization certainly has challenges right now, where they go from here is to hire a new coach who can start over with a new philosophy and become a competitive team again. It isn't going to happen quickly and there will be pain and mis-steps along the way, but Gio had totally lost the locker room and wasn't the guy to do that.
I said above Gio is a good guy. I wish him well. But good guys who are failing at their job and all of their team has given up on them isn't the solution either.
"You can't fire an owner. In a franchise system the parent company can force them to sell when they own a minority stake - often based on malevolent behavior clauses in their bylaws/operating agreements, but obviously they don't want to invoke those or they would have done so a year ago."
Correct. MLS as the parent company has never done that. The threat of ultimately going that route is what finally got Dell Loy Hansen to sell RSL, but they didn't force a sale there. And Hank Paulson has been called a "model owner" by Don Garber, so I wouldn't hold my breath for it happening in Portland.
(I just bring that up as context, I don't disagree with anything you wrote)
I'm not holding my breath that MP will sell the team. I'm just finding other things to do with my time than root.
Well now I just feel like the dog that caught the car. I'm sure I'll find something new to complain about soon enough though hahaha.
I'm totally willing to write the rest of this season off if it means the search for a permanent replacement is done right. That's obviously not a guarantee, but I'm glad they didn't just rush into a permanent decision now, and that they're taking the time to do a proper search.
My fear is that the Timbers will drag the search into next year and then we'll be giving the new coach a free pass because they only had a week of pre season.
Personally, I'd look at a few assistant managers in the Eredivisie. Let's find a coach who can coach a system and use it.
I would imagine, particularly if they miss the playoffs, that a new coach will be in place by the end of this calendar year. Which is still kinda tight, but workable.
yeah, I'm sure they have a list of both coaching candidates and potential available players - it would seem that the list of players might morph a bit depending on who they bring in as coach, but they're presumably ready for either occurrence at any time.
For real. No need to rush this decision. They need to take their time and get this right.
I have to say that I'm sad to see Gio go. I think he did some really good things with the Timbers, but it was also time for his tenure to come to an end. It will be interesting to see where the Timbers go from here, as it should be clear to the players that the status quo isn't going to cut it. We are either going to see a renewed effort, or the players will pack it up and close things down.
What I'm hopeful for is a more pressure oriented team, and some open and free soccer play.
respectfully disagree, I saw him tinker with the counter system when he took over and subsequently built nothing in terms of his own style or fingerprint on the team
not only that but we would buy players just to play them in the wrong position half the time
After the last game and mostly poor run of form it’s not a surprise but I think the organization with MP at the helm is still in trouble. If you’re a solid head coach with a real resume what would convince you to manage here?
Without a big commitment to spend, drop dead wrought, and let a coach really build a team around an identity of play it’s going to be extremely hard to get anyone. Doubt the Timbers do much big spending and instead get a young DP and mid salary DP with a few tam additions. I’d like to be proven wrong but I’m not super optimistic about a new hire. Seems like it could be a Gio 2.0, lower level successful coach that comes in motivated and then goes out after a few seasons. Guess that’s kind of being a pro manager at this level though.
we have mabiala, blanco and goda coming off the books. MP has shown he is willing to roll the dice. Just need better scouting for the dice to come up 7s. Evander is clearly a class act, mosquera is top notch, Santi lots of promise. I would think the chance to add a few more pieces to that would entice a lot of coaches. Chance right away to find impact players that match your tactical expectations seems like a good draw
Blanco was a huge player here. If they had him in his prime it would be pretty amazing. There’s definitely holes to be filled and cap space. I’m not positive their willing to produce or that they have guys wanting to come here even if they scout the “right” guys.
I think the problem is the roster construction. We've brought in a number of young players and often hesitated at letting go of established older players. So we have a number of raw players and waning older players with very little in between.
Also, the problem with younger players like Moreno, is that they view the team has a stepping stone to greater things. That's okay in some respects, however when you have 4-5 players looking for the next big thing, they often neglect the present.
The main problem was the players brought in were not being used to execute a game model. We have two attacking full backs and wingers, which seems to dictate using width. However, we've never had forwards whose strength is crosses into the penalty area.
Ned said recently on Soccer Made in Portland that their focus on player signings in the near future will be on players in their prime. He said that they’ve focused on young players recently and that’s great, but now it’s time to get some in prime, ready to contribute players. Araujo-like signings, although hopefully better (though Araujo is still TBD on how good he will be)
interesting. I wonder if there are dollars available to get guys truly in their prime, and not on the decline phase of said prime for a discount. I'm trusting Ned at this point, he's done decently overall.
There absolutely will be with Mabiala, Blanco, and Niezgoda all for sure coming off the books, and probably more
Yeah, I know a lot of dead money is rolling off the books - up to about 30% of payroll, theoretically, if everyone out of contract is let go and not renewed/options not picked up. The question for me is how much of it Ned will be allowed to spend. Hopefully all of it, but this team is such a mess right now I'm not taking that for granted.
As I said in the other thread, I don't have a list of names, but there's undoubtedly several assistant coaches on current coaching staffs that are looking for a step up and a challenge, and someone like that might not be the worst fit here.
I'd love a 'big name' coach too, but also don't forget, CP was a college coach for most of his career before he came to Portland and he absolutely fit your arc, so another coach in that vein wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, if Ned gets the hire right.
But I do agree that MP being at the helm is not ideal; sadly that's not gonna change, though, so I guess all we can do is hope we're overstating that risk.
On current assistants, depends on which team. Also those guys are used to and will demand a well run organization that will spend to the best of it abailities. MP, yeah, is unfortunately going to be a hurdle. Who wants to work for a guy who basically covered up sexual harassment? And let's not forget taht even though Ned appears to be an ok guy, he' doesn't yet have much of a track recordfor success.
The silver lining for whomever we hire - especially if we go foreign - is that Ned probably understamds weird salary cap/roster rules as well as anyone. Not saying he's Chris Henderson or Ernst Tanner but there are worst GMs in the league than him.
i don't necessarily have a list - ok, I do but those guys already have gigs and probably aren't going to drop whatever they're oding to now to save us. For now, I can think of a coule of names: Feretti, BJ Callaghan, Kah, etc. Even Marsch (gulp). As for international - just don't hire Phil Neville or Sam Allardyce. Hey, what is Pirlo doint these days - I'd give him an interview.
Isn't Frank Lampard looking for a job?!
Though it’s my pipe dream: Curtin.
He'd be great, but not going to pry him away.
How about the Timbers emulate what Philly does for him. Get a long-term identity, get a solid academy to train kids in said identity so we have a steady stream of kids they can call up. Then get solid DPs and some other mls players to round it out.
That's why JC has been successful.
Absolutely correct.
Mine too, but he just signed an extension that keeps him in Philly until 2026.
Don’t follow the Union closely so don’t know much about his tactics, flexibility, sub patterns etc. But I do know his guys play for him. I could see that when they came to PP last year. A manager who commands the respect, the belief of the players, is just as important as tactics etc., maybe more so. I hope the search takes that into consideration.
Yeah, and there’s a good chance they get another guy in that vein. Despite the last two seasons Gio has been the winningest coach here in MLS. Long term success with guys like Paulson at the helm sounds likely wishful thinking.
The real question is whether MP understands that it is now the era of MLS 4.0 - thanks in part to Messi. Moneyball isn't going to work if you don't have an academy and can leverage all your resources - especially in a small market. If he wants to hire some unproven (coaching-wise as I don't think mls experience is necessary) individual at the pro-level or someone whose expereince is solely at youth level - then well we'll be right back to square one in a few years.
Is there anyone around Peregrine that can tell MP to get real? To maybe just sell the team or at least take on additional investors so we can have better resources? Is there any "no guy" in the building who can read him the riot act? Same for Ned. Does he understand that we need a tactical identity and a game plan to compete in a Messi-era league? And no offense to Ned but I'm not sure his idea of soccer is what excities fans. For all I know, he thinks it ok to go play 1990s era usa nats style. Or even the dreaded mepty bucket.
"Moneyball isn't going to work if you don't have an academy and can leverage all your resources"
I'm sorry to be pedantic, and I'm not picking on you, but I see the word "moneyball" thrown around a lot, by a lot of people and...this isn't what moneyball is.
"Moneyball", by definition, is spending your limited funds on players with skillsets that other teams do not value, thus getting value where other teams don't see it. In baseball, "moneyball" started with the A's finding players who maybe had low batting averages, but had insanely high on base percentages; the A's realized that you can't score runs without being on base, so they got guys who could get on base.
As the OBP skill got valued, teams started casting a wider net and trying to find other undervalued skillsets; every team staffed up their analytics departments in the arms race to perfect that hunt. Now, every team has a robust analytics department and "moneyball" is less about finding undervalued skillsets as it is about maximizing outcomes. All the rule changes MLB implemented this season were in part a reaction to that shift in outlook; baseball had become purely about strikeouts and home runs, thanks to analytics.
All this is to say that "moneyball" as a concept doesn't really exist in soccer; there are no undervalued skillsets, because the game, as a true team game, is fundamentally different from baseball, which is an individual sport (batter v . pitcher, batter v. outfielder) masquerading as a team game.
Soccer teams obviously also have analytics, but they're used vastly differently, and can't be depended on for projection nearly as much as baseball stats can.
"To maybe just sell the team or at least take on additional investors so we can have better resources?"
Honestly, that would be an OK outcome in a world where MP is never gonna sell. Build out an ownership group of 10 or so wealthy people who can inject money and new ideas into the club.
If there are no undervalued skillsets, why do I see a lot of guys who can run and maybe dribble, but can't pass and definitely can't finish? I'm sure there are a lot of guys who may be undervalued because they are a half-step slower but can cross on a dime and finish.
I think there is a lot of room for improvement in the soccer world in the US, and if any team is going to need "moneyball" to get an edge, why not the Timbers.
St. Louis seems like a good example of a team that has what you need, a couple of key stars, and a bunch of hard working "undervalued" players.
The key to any team, though, is that elusive "chemistry" that makes players want to play for each other. I think ultimately that was what was failing Gio because he rarely settled on an 11 and had a rotating cast. I think it created an environment where guys were pitted against each other and they started looking out for themselves. I don't have high hopes that the team can all of a sudden start playing for each other now that Gio is gone.
"I'm sure there are a lot of guys who may be undervalued because they are a half-step slower but can cross on a dime and finish."
If they can finish, they're almost certainly valued properly or close to it.
My whole point with explaining "moneyball" is that soccer is (obviously) fundamentally different from baseball as a sport. Baseball is a sport where every play has a discrete, narrow set of outcomes determined by a single individual (pitch can be hit or missed, ball can be hit or missed, fielding play can be made or missed), so it's pretty straightforward to assign a value to each of those events.
Soccer, of course, is a waaaaaaaay more fluid game that relies almost entirely on teamwork to be successful. An individual player can bring skills to the table, for sure, but if those skills don't mesh with how the team as a whole plays, they're not as valuable. Which doesn't make that player a bad player, just a bad fit in a particular system.
And through all this, I mean "value" as a concrete number that can be measured against other players in a similar role, not as a subjective judgment of a player's ability. Soccer, although it's trying, does not lend itself to that kind of analysis because of its wholly team-based nature; it's often hard to do an apples-to-apples for midfielder X vs. midfielder Y, because of the roles they play in their particular teams.
"The key to any team, though, is that elusive "chemistry" that makes players want to play for each other."
This, 100%. Look at PSG for the best example of this - they spent the last 4-5 years assembling the biggest pile of talent one team has seen since the RM teams of the mid-2000's, and yet PSG has nothing to show for it but a pile of Ligue Un trophies they would win even without those talents.
Aaaaaaalllll this to say that analytics in soccer are not a bad thing, but they aren't nearly as mature as they need to be to be of serious use. So I don't really look at St Louis and see "undervalued" players, as much as I see players who may not get a lot of headlines but who work very well in that particular system for that particular coach. But none of it is "moneyball".
That may just be semantics, but it makes sense to me in my head...hahaha
Moneyball as a term now seems to be co-opted and mainstreamed to be used in a way not originally intended but I get the intent if not the semantics! ;)
I'm not really up on all the analytics. Players are rated individually and within a system of play. The better coaches and scouts can see and identify players who will fit what they want. The worse coaches will identify types of players - maybe from a physical standpoint - and then project that they can make them a better player.
Take a guy like Robert Taylor. It's not like that guy all of a sudden became a better player who had no skills. He was good before Messi came, but now can shine a little brighter with a better player.
"Take a guy like Robert Taylor...He was good before Messi came, but now can shine a little brighter with a better player."
The challenge with analytics in soccer is that almost all the useful, deep-dive ones are behind the Opta paywall (and a couple others). Teams pay thousands of dollars a year for that data, and the general public is left with crumbs that they then try to reverse engineer a cookie out of.
If more data were public, like it is in (checks notes) literally every other sport, it would be easier to see WHY a Robert Taylor plays better with a Leo Messi, other than the obvious "it's Messi, duh", but soccer has decided that 95% of the useful information on player performance should be proprietary, so we basically just have to guess.
And yes, a lot of folks are getting better at guessing, which is great, but without a full data picture, it's all just guessing.
It's good that teams have access to that info, though, and it's good they're starting to use it to inform decisions.
Coaches can see how a player does, and that ought to be enough.
It's not an either/or, though. Coaches can absolutely see how a player does, and they will always be able to; the numbers can help them figure out *why* the players do what they do, and what combinations of players work best together based on how the coach wants to play.
Teams are using analytics all the time now, whether we see it or not; they're not the be-all-end-all of anything, they're just another tool in the box. I just wish more of those tools were, as in other sports, more widely available to the public to play with.
I can't possibly like this enough.
Yeah, it is so tough to be a pro manager. I wish the dude well in the future.
man my name is gonna age like fine wine
Well, at least now we know Ned has power. Has felt like a vacuum ever since he took over after GW and MG were canned and MP agreed to be a "silent owner".
I wish Gio well, I truly do. He seems like a really great guy and loves the game I love. But this also had to be done. If it wasn't for the miraculous 2021 MLS Cup run (still lost, but made the final against all odds and then lost on PKs - can't come much closer) I think he would have been gone sooner.
We have been adrift now for almost 2 full seasons, playing out the strings of former legends waiting for them to retire, bringing in a few new players who have mostly underwhelmed. Serious FO turmoil and then a remake that, as mentioned above, seemed to create a question of who was really in charge.
I suspect there will be more surprises as we build for a new coach. I mentioned in the other thread that in August of 2012 it seemed bizarre that we suddenly traded away Troy Perkins, brought in Donovan Ricketts instead. That was all the future coach calling some shots, before even being announced as coach. I won't be shocked if we see more of that and some head scratching moves before the game plan crystalizes.
"Well, at least now we know Ned has power" do we though? Maybe this was a Heather Davis decision (LOL just kidding, for those who don't know because she's invisible Heather Davis is the supposed CEO of the Timbers) maybe it was a Paulson decision (based on his gushing goodbye letter, I'm guessing not). Maybe Gio recognizing that the locker room is lost and ship is sinking actually parted ways? We may never know.
I think the FOs of many pro teams are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They intentionally market potential and personalities. They want fans to love the players. Many smaller cities / clubs have fans who are "all in" and super emotionally invested in the players as people. Heck, I am even seeing this with Gio right now and people who want to point fingers and make excuses, who think Gio's personality and past "almosts" (and yeah, I guess the COVID cup) should be enough to grant him something akin to academic tenure - even if currently failing.
Fans get attached and I think FOs like Portland's have to consider that when making changes. It does hinder their competitiveness when they have to consider fan backlash. There probably are certain players who are essentially untouchable at their prime AND the team is successful simultaneously. I mean who wants a team to be one of the best in the league and move their best player out with no reasonable plan to bring in something better immediately? However right now is NOT that moment for PTFC, so as you said elsewhere, every player is potentially movable, no matter how painful that may be (D. Chara would be the most painful for me personally, so I would hope what happened is we bring in a 23 year old destroyer 6 and he becomes the backup, transitioning to a FO position in a couple of years).
Agree with you that a hot run at the right moment was Gio's peak. Our performance during the Leagues Cup suggested we were trying to do the same, but just were not good enough (which is what happens to older teams who are clearly on the back side of their excellence window). That window was closing rapidly in 2021 and we still managed to find some magic at the right moment and luck our way into hosting MLS cup due to many upsets in the East. We didn't go out and find players better than Valeri, Chara, Adi, etc ... we tried to continue to do it with journeymen who were good, but not great.
I'm 100% here for Diego Chara moving into the role of Head of Conditioning and Chief Chocolate Chip Cookie Officer.
Cmon you have to keep the alliteration going, it’s Chief Chocolate Chip Cookie Captain!
I'll allow it!
100% on your D. Chara take. I would love for him to be a backup, spot-starter 6 the next year or two who mentors his replacement, be it Ayala or someone else. Then retires, stays with the team in some capacity and makes Portland his permanent home. The sticking points are that both he and the team have to realize that that's the best move for him and the team in the transition to the new era. And that he's okay with Yimmi being moved out of a DP slot or moved on from TImbers altogether. Might be a tough sell.
If the only thing keeping Diego Chara happy right now is that his brother plays here, the Timbers have done a lot of things very wrong. This is a business; Y Chara's out of contract, so his status will by necessity change. I personally hope it changes to "he's wearing a different shirt next year", but Diego's a professional athlete and understands how this all works, so hopefully can handle whatever happens to his brother.
Yimmi is under contract next year. I think I saw something on transfrmarket once that showed it (and not always reliable), but people I trust all say he's still under contract next year.
I have no inside info, but everything I've seen online, including this site which I trust, says 2023 - https://www.capology.com/club/portland-timbers/salaries/2023/
It may be that there's an option year after this or something, but every site I've seen says his contract ends in December.
I guess we'll see which site is correct in a few months. https://www.transfermarkt.us/portland-timbers/vertragsende/verein/4291/vertragsendeJahr/2023/plus/1
I was also thinking he might have a player option.
I hope you're right. Also there's the fact that Diego was brought in as a DP and is no longer, so maybe he'd understand it as the natural progression as you get older and the team looks to improve by opening up DP slots. That's if Timbers want to bring Yimmi back at all. I'm pretty much 50/50 at this point re: bringing him back at a lesser contract or not resigning him at all.
Diego was a DP only because of his transfer fee. Once that was paid off, he wasn't a DP anymore. He's been incredibly cheap for us given his quality.
No question he's been a bargain. One of the best in the history of the league.
I am 100/0 to not bring him back. I'm also not sure why the Timbers have to/would ever make roster moves only once they consider the feelings of other players on the roster.
I would certainly hope they don't. But Yimmi was signed as a DP when there wasn't a lot of demand for him in MLS (at least as a DP), or other major leagues, as I recall, so maybe just a coincidence that his brother is a club legend?
Oh, not at all - he was signed in no small part because Diego wanted him here. And I hated it at that point, and I hate it even more now.
It would have been fine if YC had been cheaper and better. Or even one of the two. But here we are, three years in, and he's overpriced and not good enough, and even DC should know that's not a recipe for sticking around, brother or otherwise. If losing YC from the team makes Diego that upset, well, maybe it's time for DC to collect his well-earned flowers as well, because sentimentality should not be a roster construction consideration.
"Timbers have the strange habit of selling well before a player hits their stride (Jebo, Farfan just off the top of my head)"
I fully and totally blame Gio for the Jebo sale. He refused to play him in his best position and insisted on playing him out wide, despite plenty of evidence that he wasn't as effective out there, until Jebo finally got sick enough of that to want out.
Portland does have an "insular" issue, I think, but Jebo's not a case of that, his was all about Gio not playing him to his best.
"2021 Cup final was nice but for those keen to this stuff, it was Gio's ceiling not a new dawn."
Yep.
Yes.
If I was in that position that is what I would ask for. Most die hard fans knew months ago that Gio wasn't cutting it - but I just had a quick conversation with several people who feel "blindsided" and "can't believe it". Classic insular Portland, they like the person therefore failure is acceptable and excusable.
Those not paying attention or with irrational thought processes are going to be pissed that we release a very injured Niezgoda, don't resign Blanco, bid adieu to Mabiala, part ways with Y Chara. And I honestly won't be shocked if between 1 and 3 of the players who we thought we were building the future with (meaning McGraw, Bravo, Evander, Moreno and Mosquera leave the team in the off season) along with potentially Asprilla and outside chance of even seeing D. Chara moved on since this is a natural "break". Many fans are going to be apoplectic about those moves - you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them. Much better to be starting in December/Jan and look like a builder rather than a destroyer in September.
You're talking about turning over 7-9 starting-caliber positions on the roster. Name me a team that has done that recently. I wish that kind of change was possible, I really do, but that's just not realistic. There's no way that either D Chara, a club legend who still contributes positively, or Evander, who they paid $10M to acquire less than a year ago, are going anywhere, nor should they.
Niezgoda, Blanco, Y Chara, Mabiala are all out of contract, and it's a no brainer not to bring any of them back. Beyond that, I think maaaaybe Asprilla goes (he should, but he's also the kind of guy a lot of fans love, so they may keep him), but otherwise I think the pieces are there to build around once those guys are gone.
"you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them."
You also don't want to be a new coach coming in whose first job is "build an entire squad from scratch, in a winter window that really only allows you to get MLS talent before training starts in earnest because summer is the main window".
If a European team comes and offers $12m for Evander tomorrow and he wants to go, you don't even consider it?
I am not saying we actively try to move that much of the roster, but it really depends on who the coach is, how happy those guys really are (and how happy they think they can be under whomever the new name is), and the vision for the future.
I am not saying fire sale, but I suspect there are offers out there for some of the younger guys who may not fit into the vision of the new coach. If they are good offers, why hamstring the new coach with players he doesn't want?
What European team is going to offer $12 million for a player that hasn't shown himself capable to truly compete in MLS?
Even if it was less than the $10m we paid for him, we'd have to think about it. Is he really just having a terrible season? Did we bring in a 6 and expect him to be a 10 as some have suggested? Can he be the player we need in 2024 and beyond?
Because MLS is a better league than when Diego Valeri arrived. We need a player better than Valeri if we hope to replicate past successes.
Nobody is untouchable, absolutely, and if someone offered more for Evander than the Timbers paid, I'd be OK with it. But that's not going to happen.
"Is he really just having a terrible season?"
I mean, no? He's only got five goals, but his passing and vision is probably the best on the team at this point, and his low goal total is probably also due in part to the quality, or lack thereof, of service he's getting from his current teammates.
Evander's not really one of the Timbers' main problems. It's building a team around Evander, around Moreno, and around the new guys that will show us how good Evander can be. Don't give up on him based on this trash fire of a season.
I agree that Evander certainly isn't the main problem; he's arguably the team's best player this year (with McGraw getting a shout too). But he's been suspended twice this year, in Leagues Cup obviously but also in MLS once. He needs to quickly up his maturity and demonstrate more calmness on the pitch. Can't agree on building around Moreno. He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth, and he's clearly stated he wants to go to Europe soon. Best case IMO, is we bring him back next year with new coach and hope his form dramatically improves. If so, sell him mid-season to a 2nd tier European league or a S. America side at a profit. If he' plays well, he'll want to move and should be accommodated. If he's not good next year, that'll be 2 years straight under two different coaches and a clear sign we shouldn't build the team around him.
"He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth"
Are you sure about that? How do you know? What little I've read seems to indicate his problems were with Gio; I'm willing to give him the time/space to prove that now Gio's gone he can develop into the player I think he can be.
How do I know he doesn't want to be here? Well I don't really know for sure. I'm making my best guess based on his words and actions. Shortly after he signed w/ PTFC, I recall he said something of the effect he wanted to go to Europe soon (maybe not his exact words). Given that he's been here 2.5 years, I'm assuming soon is either now or in the very near future.
He also went AWOL from his team in the middle of this season, to fly to another hemisphere. Would that choice be prompted solely by disagreement with a coach? Seems an extreme reaction to just that. The reporting earlier in the season indicated he wanted a transfer and/or his contract renegotiated with a big bump in salary. He's since denied requesting a transfer (which I don't find particularly credible). He hasn't denied wanting his contract renegotiated. Gio wasn't in charge of contract negotiations, I'm pretty sure, so removing Gio doesn't remove that source of friction. And I have heard nothing to indicated he's abandoned his dream of playing in Europe.
As I wrote earlier, from my viewpoint the best case is he exceeds his previous form next year under a new coach/system and increases his value by next summer. So I'm willing to give him time/space. I'm assuming he'll still want to leave. If he's playing really well and can put his Europe desire on hold, and can demonstrate his commitment to staying with the team in at least the medium term, then by all means keep him. But after abandoning his team this season, he would have to clear a pretty high bar for me to trust him.
I miss Kah's belly rub and shoe tying abilities. He was a such a character, master entertainer.
Notably missing from that description: ability to defend
Of those 7, though, only Ricketts and Valeri were nailed-on starters. The rest were depth pieces - Kah and Urutti worked their way into starting spots but, at least in Kah's case, that's because he was the best of a bad set of options.
Churning depth is something teams do almost all the time, yes. A complete overhaul of a starting squad, as the first comment in this thread seems to suggest the Timbers will do, is not common at all.
The Timbers are in a good place right now because several of their lesser-performing starters are out of contract this winter, but I am highly skeptical there will be like-for-like replacements brought in for each departure from outside. There'll be a mix of buys and promotions, like most years.
I mean, either way, the Timbers should look a lot different next season; I'm just skeptical it'll be "cut seven, hire seven new guys".
This, especially the insular Portland line. I truly hope McGraw sticks around, and maybe 1 or 2 others you mentioned. But I am ready for a rebuild. Much as I love him, I hope and pray we're not planning on keeping Chara till he's 40, as he's already showing that he's mortal and he hasn't saved us from sucking the last couple years anyway. And we never would have signed Yimmi as a DP if his last name wasn't Chara. Not that I blame Diego for that, but he prob won't be happy if we move on from Yimmi as we should. Cue the insular Portlanders who believe their sports heroes will never age out.
not if Gio brought in some of those dudes, which there a couple I'd argue he did and we will get rid of. Theres also Llamosa who is gone baby gone
I'm not necessarily saying that a new coach doesn't start calling the shots sooner rather than later (in 2012 we traded Perkins and brought in Ricketts only 2.5 weeks after Spencer was fired - and that was all Porter calling that move).
Some of this may be opportunities arise and different clubs want to BUY these guys, not that the coach doesn't want them. Then it becomes a discussion of what is best for the club over the next 1-2 years and does selling a Bravo or McGraw or Moreno put you in a better position to replace them with someone who fits the style of the incoming coach and possibly even upgrade.
All, I am saying is that Gio essentially came in and accepted Porter's roster, most new coaches are not going to want to do that and are going to be very willing to turn over players at the very start of their tenure so they can build what they want quickly.
I think this is a mistake, we need a coach who can come in and start untangling the mess right away so he gets a good start for next year. 2024 season is a project that needs to start yesterday
I would wager that the roster will look a lot different next year, with a lot of players being out of contract. There's no point in rushing a hire to try to make sense of this pile of dirty laundry; let the new guy come in in December and work with Ned to start building a roster that's his own. It'll take a few windows to do properly, but there's literally no point to bringing in a permanent head coach right now, as opposed to post-season.
So I think people are pretty quickly going to be regretting this. Get ready for a few seasons of hiring someone who doesn' t work out and then replacing them. Gio was a class act better than the club deserved at this point in time.
"Get ready for a few seasons of hiring someone who doesn' t work out and then replacing them."
Oh, we've been prepared.
Lol, okay Gio…
"better than the club deserved "
What is your evidence for that?
Oh, I dunno, how about that PTFC is a dumpster fire of an organization right now, with an owner trying to sell half the club to get out from under a multi-year sexual harassment scandal involving a former coach? Or a roster that combines chronically injured older players with under-performing DPs? I just don't see how Gio made this picture worse at all but I see a lot of ways in which having a class act made things better. And for the people out there who think 1) Marsch; 2) Klinsmann (????); or 3) an unnamed college coach waiting in the wings who is about to be named are going to make things better, as I said, get ready for a revolving door of coaches, few if any of whom will have Gio's personal abilities to hold things together. It's going to be crazy town.
This was Gio's roster
*points at name*
"I just don't see how Gio made this picture worse at all"
It is literally a coach's job to make the disparate parts of a roster, whatever that roster looks like, work together to play to the best of their abilities. Gio, over the last 2+ seasons, couldn't do that.
It can definitely be argued that the pieces he had to work with aren't the best in the game, but that's not what cost Gio his job - the problem is that Gio couldn't make a cohesive unit out of what he had. Which, again, was his job.
"few if any of whom will have Gio's personal abilities to hold things together"
Ask Santiago Moreno, Dario Zuparic, or Aljaz Ivacic how well Gio was able to "hold things together". Something tells me you won't get the answer you think you will.
I also find it quite interesting, this American pro sports understanding, that the GM is playing fantasy sports with the owner's money and just going out and buying a bunch of maybe cohesive players, maybe not. That the coach's only role is to somehow take all of those pieces and make a successful team out of them.
While there is a kernel of truth tho this (perhaps even stronger in bygone eras) in MLB and the NBA, modern teams intimately involve coaching in decisions over who to bring in and who to trade. Every single player on this roster right now, except Diego Chara and Asprilla were new in the Gio era. I can promise you that if Chara and Asprilla were felt to the problem, Gio would have talked GW or NG into moving them out over the last 6 years.
By 2019/20 this was the team Gio wanted, otherwise players would not have been brought in or re-signed.
If the players brought in and re-signed under your tenure in don't have chemistry or are creating off field problems -- that is fully on you, coach. If you can solve that - great, good job. If you can't, well you are not going to keep the job for very long, deservedly so.
Yeah, for sure the coach has input, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise, that was poor phrasing on my part. The GM ultimately says yay or nay, but the coach has varying degrees of input; soccer also arguably has far more managerial input to roster decisions than most sports (tangentially: baseball managers have virtually no input these days, it's almost all the GM, and that also includes picking game-day rosters).
But whoever brings in the players, it's on the coach to make those players work as a unit. Even when there's injuries, international call-ups, or suspensions, the manager's literal job is to make a team a team. That's not his only role, but it is a very important one. Gio couldn't do that.
We'll see, I suppose, but I don't see anyway this roster could have been held together given 1) constant injuries; 2) pieces that don't work; and 3) lots and lots of off the field drama. The rumor throughout Gio's time (and before him Porter's time) is that the FO calls the personnel shots, and expects the coaches to clean it up. The reason Gio is walking rather than MP or NG is that, well, he's the one who could be fired. I think Gio has shown a good record of taking a mediocre hand and getting the best out of it, up until the last year, which has been a shit show for all of the reasons I mentioned. The more I think about it, though, the more it seems to me that Gio has gotten the better end of this bargain. Meanwhile, we're going to get either a moonshine selling BS'er or an MLS 1.0 retread who will talk about playing a 4-3-3 as if saying on cue that you're going to play "attractive, attacking soccer" can do anything to make that actually happen IRL.
Gio's only good games were when Blanco was putting the team on his shoulders lol
great person, mediocre coach
You could very well be right, but we don’t know if we don’t try. The mediocre at best play cannot be allowed to continue. We all know this organization has a lot of problems, but the coach is always going to be the first domino to fall, so fall it must