If I was in that position that is what I would ask for. Most die hard fans knew months ago that Gio wasn't cutting it - but I just had a quick conversation with several people who feel "blindsided" and "can't believe it". Classic insular Portland, they like the person therefore failure is acceptable and excusable.
Those not paying attention or with irrational thought processes are going to be pissed that we release a very injured Niezgoda, don't resign Blanco, bid adieu to Mabiala, part ways with Y Chara. And I honestly won't be shocked if between 1 and 3 of the players who we thought we were building the future with (meaning McGraw, Bravo, Evander, Moreno and Mosquera leave the team in the off season) along with potentially Asprilla and outside chance of even seeing D. Chara moved on since this is a natural "break". Many fans are going to be apoplectic about those moves - you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them. Much better to be starting in December/Jan and look like a builder rather than a destroyer in September.
You're talking about turning over 7-9 starting-caliber positions on the roster. Name me a team that has done that recently. I wish that kind of change was possible, I really do, but that's just not realistic. There's no way that either D Chara, a club legend who still contributes positively, or Evander, who they paid $10M to acquire less than a year ago, are going anywhere, nor should they.
Niezgoda, Blanco, Y Chara, Mabiala are all out of contract, and it's a no brainer not to bring any of them back. Beyond that, I think maaaaybe Asprilla goes (he should, but he's also the kind of guy a lot of fans love, so they may keep him), but otherwise I think the pieces are there to build around once those guys are gone.
"you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them."
You also don't want to be a new coach coming in whose first job is "build an entire squad from scratch, in a winter window that really only allows you to get MLS talent before training starts in earnest because summer is the main window".
If a European team comes and offers $12m for Evander tomorrow and he wants to go, you don't even consider it?
I am not saying we actively try to move that much of the roster, but it really depends on who the coach is, how happy those guys really are (and how happy they think they can be under whomever the new name is), and the vision for the future.
I am not saying fire sale, but I suspect there are offers out there for some of the younger guys who may not fit into the vision of the new coach. If they are good offers, why hamstring the new coach with players he doesn't want?
Even if it was less than the $10m we paid for him, we'd have to think about it. Is he really just having a terrible season? Did we bring in a 6 and expect him to be a 10 as some have suggested? Can he be the player we need in 2024 and beyond?
Because MLS is a better league than when Diego Valeri arrived. We need a player better than Valeri if we hope to replicate past successes.
Nobody is untouchable, absolutely, and if someone offered more for Evander than the Timbers paid, I'd be OK with it. But that's not going to happen.
"Is he really just having a terrible season?"
I mean, no? He's only got five goals, but his passing and vision is probably the best on the team at this point, and his low goal total is probably also due in part to the quality, or lack thereof, of service he's getting from his current teammates.
Evander's not really one of the Timbers' main problems. It's building a team around Evander, around Moreno, and around the new guys that will show us how good Evander can be. Don't give up on him based on this trash fire of a season.
I agree that Evander certainly isn't the main problem; he's arguably the team's best player this year (with McGraw getting a shout too). But he's been suspended twice this year, in Leagues Cup obviously but also in MLS once. He needs to quickly up his maturity and demonstrate more calmness on the pitch. Can't agree on building around Moreno. He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth, and he's clearly stated he wants to go to Europe soon. Best case IMO, is we bring him back next year with new coach and hope his form dramatically improves. If so, sell him mid-season to a 2nd tier European league or a S. America side at a profit. If he' plays well, he'll want to move and should be accommodated. If he's not good next year, that'll be 2 years straight under two different coaches and a clear sign we shouldn't build the team around him.
"He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth"
Are you sure about that? How do you know? What little I've read seems to indicate his problems were with Gio; I'm willing to give him the time/space to prove that now Gio's gone he can develop into the player I think he can be.
How do I know he doesn't want to be here? Well I don't really know for sure. I'm making my best guess based on his words and actions. Shortly after he signed w/ PTFC, I recall he said something of the effect he wanted to go to Europe soon (maybe not his exact words). Given that he's been here 2.5 years, I'm assuming soon is either now or in the very near future.
He also went AWOL from his team in the middle of this season, to fly to another hemisphere. Would that choice be prompted solely by disagreement with a coach? Seems an extreme reaction to just that. The reporting earlier in the season indicated he wanted a transfer and/or his contract renegotiated with a big bump in salary. He's since denied requesting a transfer (which I don't find particularly credible). He hasn't denied wanting his contract renegotiated. Gio wasn't in charge of contract negotiations, I'm pretty sure, so removing Gio doesn't remove that source of friction. And I have heard nothing to indicated he's abandoned his dream of playing in Europe.
As I wrote earlier, from my viewpoint the best case is he exceeds his previous form next year under a new coach/system and increases his value by next summer. So I'm willing to give him time/space. I'm assuming he'll still want to leave. If he's playing really well and can put his Europe desire on hold, and can demonstrate his commitment to staying with the team in at least the medium term, then by all means keep him. But after abandoning his team this season, he would have to clear a pretty high bar for me to trust him.
Of those 7, though, only Ricketts and Valeri were nailed-on starters. The rest were depth pieces - Kah and Urutti worked their way into starting spots but, at least in Kah's case, that's because he was the best of a bad set of options.
Churning depth is something teams do almost all the time, yes. A complete overhaul of a starting squad, as the first comment in this thread seems to suggest the Timbers will do, is not common at all.
The Timbers are in a good place right now because several of their lesser-performing starters are out of contract this winter, but I am highly skeptical there will be like-for-like replacements brought in for each departure from outside. There'll be a mix of buys and promotions, like most years.
I mean, either way, the Timbers should look a lot different next season; I'm just skeptical it'll be "cut seven, hire seven new guys".
This, especially the insular Portland line. I truly hope McGraw sticks around, and maybe 1 or 2 others you mentioned. But I am ready for a rebuild. Much as I love him, I hope and pray we're not planning on keeping Chara till he's 40, as he's already showing that he's mortal and he hasn't saved us from sucking the last couple years anyway. And we never would have signed Yimmi as a DP if his last name wasn't Chara. Not that I blame Diego for that, but he prob won't be happy if we move on from Yimmi as we should. Cue the insular Portlanders who believe their sports heroes will never age out.
I'm not necessarily saying that a new coach doesn't start calling the shots sooner rather than later (in 2012 we traded Perkins and brought in Ricketts only 2.5 weeks after Spencer was fired - and that was all Porter calling that move).
Some of this may be opportunities arise and different clubs want to BUY these guys, not that the coach doesn't want them. Then it becomes a discussion of what is best for the club over the next 1-2 years and does selling a Bravo or McGraw or Moreno put you in a better position to replace them with someone who fits the style of the incoming coach and possibly even upgrade.
All, I am saying is that Gio essentially came in and accepted Porter's roster, most new coaches are not going to want to do that and are going to be very willing to turn over players at the very start of their tenure so they can build what they want quickly.
I think this is a mistake, we need a coach who can come in and start untangling the mess right away so he gets a good start for next year. 2024 season is a project that needs to start yesterday
I would wager that the roster will look a lot different next year, with a lot of players being out of contract. There's no point in rushing a hire to try to make sense of this pile of dirty laundry; let the new guy come in in December and work with Ned to start building a roster that's his own. It'll take a few windows to do properly, but there's literally no point to bringing in a permanent head coach right now, as opposed to post-season.
Yes.
If I was in that position that is what I would ask for. Most die hard fans knew months ago that Gio wasn't cutting it - but I just had a quick conversation with several people who feel "blindsided" and "can't believe it". Classic insular Portland, they like the person therefore failure is acceptable and excusable.
Those not paying attention or with irrational thought processes are going to be pissed that we release a very injured Niezgoda, don't resign Blanco, bid adieu to Mabiala, part ways with Y Chara. And I honestly won't be shocked if between 1 and 3 of the players who we thought we were building the future with (meaning McGraw, Bravo, Evander, Moreno and Mosquera leave the team in the off season) along with potentially Asprilla and outside chance of even seeing D. Chara moved on since this is a natural "break". Many fans are going to be apoplectic about those moves - you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them. Much better to be starting in December/Jan and look like a builder rather than a destroyer in September.
You're talking about turning over 7-9 starting-caliber positions on the roster. Name me a team that has done that recently. I wish that kind of change was possible, I really do, but that's just not realistic. There's no way that either D Chara, a club legend who still contributes positively, or Evander, who they paid $10M to acquire less than a year ago, are going anywhere, nor should they.
Niezgoda, Blanco, Y Chara, Mabiala are all out of contract, and it's a no brainer not to bring any of them back. Beyond that, I think maaaaybe Asprilla goes (he should, but he's also the kind of guy a lot of fans love, so they may keep him), but otherwise I think the pieces are there to build around once those guys are gone.
"you don't want to be a new coach coming on with 5 games left to preside over missing the playoffs and then a shit storm by the fans who are irrationally attached to some players who were brought in for the last manager who failed to do anything with them."
You also don't want to be a new coach coming in whose first job is "build an entire squad from scratch, in a winter window that really only allows you to get MLS talent before training starts in earnest because summer is the main window".
If a European team comes and offers $12m for Evander tomorrow and he wants to go, you don't even consider it?
I am not saying we actively try to move that much of the roster, but it really depends on who the coach is, how happy those guys really are (and how happy they think they can be under whomever the new name is), and the vision for the future.
I am not saying fire sale, but I suspect there are offers out there for some of the younger guys who may not fit into the vision of the new coach. If they are good offers, why hamstring the new coach with players he doesn't want?
What European team is going to offer $12 million for a player that hasn't shown himself capable to truly compete in MLS?
Even if it was less than the $10m we paid for him, we'd have to think about it. Is he really just having a terrible season? Did we bring in a 6 and expect him to be a 10 as some have suggested? Can he be the player we need in 2024 and beyond?
Because MLS is a better league than when Diego Valeri arrived. We need a player better than Valeri if we hope to replicate past successes.
Nobody is untouchable, absolutely, and if someone offered more for Evander than the Timbers paid, I'd be OK with it. But that's not going to happen.
"Is he really just having a terrible season?"
I mean, no? He's only got five goals, but his passing and vision is probably the best on the team at this point, and his low goal total is probably also due in part to the quality, or lack thereof, of service he's getting from his current teammates.
Evander's not really one of the Timbers' main problems. It's building a team around Evander, around Moreno, and around the new guys that will show us how good Evander can be. Don't give up on him based on this trash fire of a season.
I agree that Evander certainly isn't the main problem; he's arguably the team's best player this year (with McGraw getting a shout too). But he's been suspended twice this year, in Leagues Cup obviously but also in MLS once. He needs to quickly up his maturity and demonstrate more calmness on the pitch. Can't agree on building around Moreno. He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth, and he's clearly stated he wants to go to Europe soon. Best case IMO, is we bring him back next year with new coach and hope his form dramatically improves. If so, sell him mid-season to a 2nd tier European league or a S. America side at a profit. If he' plays well, he'll want to move and should be accommodated. If he's not good next year, that'll be 2 years straight under two different coaches and a clear sign we shouldn't build the team around him.
"He clearly doesn't want to be here. He went to S. America in the middle of the season. It's not just Gio he had a problem with. He's homesick, he wants to be paid more than he's shown he's worth"
Are you sure about that? How do you know? What little I've read seems to indicate his problems were with Gio; I'm willing to give him the time/space to prove that now Gio's gone he can develop into the player I think he can be.
How do I know he doesn't want to be here? Well I don't really know for sure. I'm making my best guess based on his words and actions. Shortly after he signed w/ PTFC, I recall he said something of the effect he wanted to go to Europe soon (maybe not his exact words). Given that he's been here 2.5 years, I'm assuming soon is either now or in the very near future.
He also went AWOL from his team in the middle of this season, to fly to another hemisphere. Would that choice be prompted solely by disagreement with a coach? Seems an extreme reaction to just that. The reporting earlier in the season indicated he wanted a transfer and/or his contract renegotiated with a big bump in salary. He's since denied requesting a transfer (which I don't find particularly credible). He hasn't denied wanting his contract renegotiated. Gio wasn't in charge of contract negotiations, I'm pretty sure, so removing Gio doesn't remove that source of friction. And I have heard nothing to indicated he's abandoned his dream of playing in Europe.
As I wrote earlier, from my viewpoint the best case is he exceeds his previous form next year under a new coach/system and increases his value by next summer. So I'm willing to give him time/space. I'm assuming he'll still want to leave. If he's playing really well and can put his Europe desire on hold, and can demonstrate his commitment to staying with the team in at least the medium term, then by all means keep him. But after abandoning his team this season, he would have to clear a pretty high bar for me to trust him.
I miss Kah's belly rub and shoe tying abilities. He was a such a character, master entertainer.
Notably missing from that description: ability to defend
Of those 7, though, only Ricketts and Valeri were nailed-on starters. The rest were depth pieces - Kah and Urutti worked their way into starting spots but, at least in Kah's case, that's because he was the best of a bad set of options.
Churning depth is something teams do almost all the time, yes. A complete overhaul of a starting squad, as the first comment in this thread seems to suggest the Timbers will do, is not common at all.
The Timbers are in a good place right now because several of their lesser-performing starters are out of contract this winter, but I am highly skeptical there will be like-for-like replacements brought in for each departure from outside. There'll be a mix of buys and promotions, like most years.
I mean, either way, the Timbers should look a lot different next season; I'm just skeptical it'll be "cut seven, hire seven new guys".
This, especially the insular Portland line. I truly hope McGraw sticks around, and maybe 1 or 2 others you mentioned. But I am ready for a rebuild. Much as I love him, I hope and pray we're not planning on keeping Chara till he's 40, as he's already showing that he's mortal and he hasn't saved us from sucking the last couple years anyway. And we never would have signed Yimmi as a DP if his last name wasn't Chara. Not that I blame Diego for that, but he prob won't be happy if we move on from Yimmi as we should. Cue the insular Portlanders who believe their sports heroes will never age out.
not if Gio brought in some of those dudes, which there a couple I'd argue he did and we will get rid of. Theres also Llamosa who is gone baby gone
I'm not necessarily saying that a new coach doesn't start calling the shots sooner rather than later (in 2012 we traded Perkins and brought in Ricketts only 2.5 weeks after Spencer was fired - and that was all Porter calling that move).
Some of this may be opportunities arise and different clubs want to BUY these guys, not that the coach doesn't want them. Then it becomes a discussion of what is best for the club over the next 1-2 years and does selling a Bravo or McGraw or Moreno put you in a better position to replace them with someone who fits the style of the incoming coach and possibly even upgrade.
All, I am saying is that Gio essentially came in and accepted Porter's roster, most new coaches are not going to want to do that and are going to be very willing to turn over players at the very start of their tenure so they can build what they want quickly.
I think this is a mistake, we need a coach who can come in and start untangling the mess right away so he gets a good start for next year. 2024 season is a project that needs to start yesterday
I would wager that the roster will look a lot different next year, with a lot of players being out of contract. There's no point in rushing a hire to try to make sense of this pile of dirty laundry; let the new guy come in in December and work with Ned to start building a roster that's his own. It'll take a few windows to do properly, but there's literally no point to bringing in a permanent head coach right now, as opposed to post-season.