This is the best I've seen the offense perform in a long, long time. I was surprised that Tigres didn't just dominate after the Red Card - the Timbers looked so much better down a man than I thought they could.
I really expected to be blown out. Instead it's just a typical Timbers coaching loss - high line beaten for a goal, expected inability to cover the far post on corners. It makes me wonder what the team could do with better coaching.
"hi line beaten for a goal" - what do you mean? The goal where Evander turned the ball over in mid-field? How is that Gio's fault? And Ridgy coaches the defense for set pieces so how is that Gio's fault?
I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if we'd lost 5 or 6 nil considering how the year's gone and Tigres' pedigree. I thought the game was super exciting, no small part due to the number of Tigres fans bringing so much energy to the game. Makes me wish there was at least one Mexican team in the MLS! I thought the Timbers played really well and I was impressed. Yes, what we look like with a different coach? I'd love to find out.
For me, though, it's the stagnation that has afflicted this roster and team since 2021. Other than Dairon Asprilla, name a current Timbers player that has gotten appreciably better under Gio in the last 3-4 years. That list is very, very short. Also, look at the complete disintegration of anything resembling a coherent system/style of play, particularly last year; that trend has continued this season as well, through the injury-hit start of the season until now. There are flashes of a good team in there, but even in Saturday night's win, the Timbers didn't really look all that coherent for large stretches of the game. Just look, for example, at how well Columbus passed and moved the ball a couple weeks ago - it was easy to tell that they had a system, they knew what to do to execute that system, and while the Timbers did win that game, Columbus looked threatening throughout. I want the Timbers to be that.
I have said multiple times that I know a new coach will not miraculously turn this group into MLS Cup contenders. I do, however, believe that after six seasons, Gio's players aren't really responding to his training in productive ways - they're seemingly running on muscle memory at this point. I don't mean that in a "he's lost the locker room" kind of way; it's just that after this long of one way of doing things, there's a natural tendency, when a boss/leader starts talking, for someone to go "yeah, yeah, I know" and then just go out and do what they always do.
It's my belief that a new coach, who would bring new ideas and a new training structure/style, would be a breath of fresh air that might at least be able to get this group to play more consistently and more coherently.
The way I've put it a lot is that a new coach may not turn this roster into a juggernaut, but a new coach may well turn what is today a dispiriting 4-1 loss into a closer loss, a 2-2 draw or even an occasional win. And a new coach may make the team more entertaining to watch, which is really the root of what I want.
"the solution is more complex"
I agree with you, and I would even say that there is no one "the solution" to the mess the Timbers are in. But, given that ownership isn't going to change any time soon - whether that be the actual owner (which is the dream) or in the current owner's ownership style, we're stuck with "what can we change to freshen things up?". You can't fire the players, and the boss isn't going to fire the GM he just promoted; that leaves a coaching change.
If the Timbers miss the playoffs again this year, or if they sneak in at a 9 seed and lose that play-in game, it will be harder and harder for Gio to defend his position I think; in a league with an extreeeeeeeemely friendly playoff structure (63% of MLS teams make the playoffs!), missing the playoffs two years in a row, or crashing out of a play-in, should basically be any coach's ticket out the door.
Of course it's not just the coach. The FO hasn't built well, although I imagine the coach has input into that. Ownership is embarrassing and damaging. But....
We've seen the same defensive failures year after year after year after year no matter the personnel. It's like the back post doesn't exist on corners and it hasn't existed for at least the last 4 years. That's just bad coaching.
I really like Savarese as a person. He seems like someone who'd be awesome to spend time with. But that, alas, doesn't make him a good coach. The back post tells me he's not getting the job done, defensively.
If you listened to him post game the back post was open because we were short a man and had to leave somewhere open. He said usually that is where parades is but with evander being off we had to move people around. They found it so good on them.
If you watched the play, the back post was open because Mosquera fell asleep or got caught ball watching. It's not that there was nobody there, it's that the player there just didn't do his job. If it was just the one time or the one player, it wouldn't be a thing so many of us harp on. This is SOP for the recent years of Timbers corner defending.
Shameless plug -- video up for Santiago Moreno for his two sub appearances vs San Jose and Tigres. He’s been a very polarizing player recently, with some questioning if he’s really all that good. And from what I’ve gathered from the past two games, he’s still a damn good player, and he was really good. Picked up some really good spots, had some wonderful touches (his touch and turn in minute 7:30 on the video stands out), and some great passes. Most of the clips vs Tigres are him putting in defensive work, and he had to do a TON of defense. They mostly attacked down his side, and he did very well covering space and teaming up with Bravo to shut that side down. I’m really hoping Moreno gets the start next match because I think he’s ready ball out
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, this was a return for Ivacic! Still not entirely sure what’s going on there, but it was good to have him back. Remember when we (most of us I believe) were saying Ivacic was the better shot stopper but Bingham was the better distributor? Yeah that’s gone out the window hasn’t it. The difference in distribution was night and day. Ivacic didn’t kick the ball out of bounds four times a game (or at all) and his long balls had purpose, it was great. I hope Ivacic stays as the starter
After watching other better MLS teams fall to the great Liga MX teams like Monterrey and America, I think our performance might be our most impressive performance of the year. Before the card I would go so far to say that we were the better team. Tigres had very few chances, and we looked extremely dangerous in the attack. We looked organized! And coherent! And well coached! And even when we went down a man, we held on until the 80th minute, and we conceded only due to a defensive mental lapse. Against one of the best teams on the continent. That’s impressive as hell, and this kind of performance is the type of thing that can take us on a run. I give Gio a lot of credit, the players look far more motivated than they have in recent months, and we look a lot better
All the Evander stuff is bs. First challenge is absolutely a yellow, it was a clear elbow to the head and Evander even jabs it out a bit. Second one, he’s just trying to get out of the way, clearly trying to get his arm over the player. Not sure why he’s doing that but I feel like it’s pretty clear to see that, nothing intentional at all. Now for next game, I’m really hoping we stick with the 4-3-3 and stick Moreno in the middle and let him cook. He’s played quite well the past two games off the bench, and actually had some really nice set pieces.
Mora was awesome, his injuries have not affected his mind one bit. He combines so well with the rest of the team and always pops up in the right space. And is great at drawing fouls, which is how we got our free kick for Evander to score. Bringing Niezgoda made no sense. Taking off Mora is fine, he’s coming back from injury, but if Boli isn’t ready to go 45 then I would’ve rather seen Nathan or Asprilla up top. In a 4-4-1 down a man, we needed our striker to play defense like hell, hold up the ball, and be threat in behind with speed. Niezgoda provides none of those. He had a few good moments but there were at least two times during counter attacks where one of our wingers was dribbling down the line and he just drifted to the far post and waited, not providing any support or anything. He’s gotta support or make a run in behind to take a defender with him to open up space. Whether you like Jaro or not, he is not the man for being a single striker while down a man against one of the best teams in the region. That one’s on Gio
Looks like there is reason for hope in Timbertown after a pretty hopeless season so far. The Timbers were up for the game and it was exciting for a change! Evander's petulance and Mosquera ball watching on the corner were relatively isolated lapses that probably caused the loss. At the end, the announcers said the Timbers are through to the knockout round regardless of the outcome of the Tigres/San Jose game due to goal differential? I don't see San Jose pummeling Tigres 4-0 or whatever, but strange things happen sometimes. Aloha.
If San Jose beat Tigres by 3+, we go through in second place because Tigres goes to third place. If San Jose barely beats Tigres by <3, we go through in first. If Tigres, wins, we go through in second place.
If San Jose goes up by >3, then we share the points with Tigres at 3. First tie breaker is head to head, which would put Tigres through.
From the leagues cup's own web page. So the discussion during the game by the terribly biased against Timbers and uneducated on the rules was WRONG!!!
First tie-breaking criterion:
Head-to-head result between the tied Clubs: If the teams are still tied on points, the team that has earned more points against the other tied team(s) will advance.
Second tie-breaking criterion:
Goal difference: If two or more teams have the same number of points at the end of the group stage and have also drawn their direct encounter, the tie-breaker will be the goal difference. This is the number of goals scored by a team minus the number of goals it has conceded. The team with the highest goal difference will rank above its rivals in the table.
Third tie-breaking criterion:
Greater number of goals scored: If the goal difference is the same, the total number of goals scored in the group stage matches will be considered. The team that has scored more goals will advance to the next round.
If the recap is going to editorialize ("What he did to earn the red card was childish and can't happen again"), at least describe the offense. Those of us who were at the stadium only saw a brief replay that was very ambiguous--in fact it looked to me as if it could have been accidental. If consensus is that it wasn't, I want to hear why. I don't come to StumptownFooty just for the comments, interesting as they often are. I also want to know what I missed, either at the stadium or at home, and I can't trust the official MLS and Timbers sites to tell me without bias.
(And what does "I guess these are the cards the Timbers have to deal with nowadays" mean, exactly?)
Evander's Hand came down on the Tigres player's head. The replay I saw looked like it brushed his head, but the Tigres player went down like he was beaten by a baseball bat. My best guess on the card was that the ref saw the hand near the head and the response, and carded him for hitting the player in the head. Since it was a yellow card, I don't think it was reviewable so the red stands regardless of what could have been seen on the replay. Soft foul, and the ultimate result was far harsher than the infraction warranted. But as others have said, once you are on a yellow card you have to be careful.
My take on the calls, Evander should have been given a talking to on the first yellow, and then a yellow is warranted on the second. But to pull cards that quickly when the ref wasn't earlier (the Tigres fouls) was too harsh.
Hard to say Evander deserves a yellow card for the challenge when it isn’t even a foul and parades is bleeding from the nose.
The ref instigated during the first half instead of being a calming influence. And his worst offense to me was he was not consistent. Be bad if you want or whatever but be consistent.
I agree on your take on the second yellow, but differ a little bit on the first. I don't like to see any blows to the head, and the first one, whether he intended it or not, was an elbow or at least bicep to the head and looked like he caught him pretty good. I can see a talking too on one end of the spectrum and then a yellow on the other end. The ref went the other end, and once he does, Evander should be more careful.
I suspect Evander gets frustrated with himself for losing the ball and acts out sometimes. He seems like a perfectionist, which is good for a leader, but he needs to control the negative impulses.
I can see that. Part of my perspective is that the ref wasn't pulling yellows on hard fouls earlier, so I didn't understand why he did there. But a blow to the head can definitely warrant a yellow. The calls are defensible, but harsh. And the calls influenced the outcome of the game, which is not what a ref should be doing.
I’m pretty sure that you are correct about the yellow card not being eligible for VAR. I think all yellows should be reviewable, maybe with a coaches’ challenge if there are just too many yellow cards. At a minimum, when a yellow card leads to a red card and an ejection (and a team playing shorthanded) that yellow needs to be reviewed. The result is the same as a straight red card, which can be reviewed.
I agree with you, but it has been this way for years and I don't see it stopping.
Most yellow card infractions are subjective "in the opinion of the referee" as are many reds (DOGSO for example).
Review is fairly pointless if the CR is going to maintain his opinion that any arm to head contact is reckless (or even that it was in this case and no matter how many TV replays you see you are not going to change that subjective opinion made in the moment).
It is true that 2 yellows is definitely a catch-22 to the idea that VAR will fix bad calls, because it can't fix most yellow offenses.
A) based on who we were playing, I would say it was one of the best all around performances of the year. Especially when we kept a very good team off the board down a man for the entire second half. However, best offensive game? No. That still goes to the Seattle game. In this game we had a lot of chances to be threatening around the box and most times we shot ourselves in the foot. In no way was the team clinical in the box, or efficient.
2. Still #gioout?
A) yup. Being #gioout does not mean that the team is playing bad. Just like the team winning a game here and there doesn't mean the team is playing good. When I look at the whole team situation, I see a couple troubling things when it is related to gio, and a couple wins is not going to change that. One of the things I see is.......
B) why does the team not try at all for most of the season and the only time they do try is either, playing a rivalry game. Or playing a team like tigres, that they know will give them recognition if they do well. That tells me that they are playing for themselves. Not the team and not for Gio. Now I say that because how can they play so well against Seattle, Columbus, tigres, and then play like crap to mid table and bottom dweller teams. Somehow gio just gets it right against really good teams and really wrong against shit teams? That does not make sense. If anything, it tells me that the team has the ability but either don't think they need to put in the work every game, (Which is on gio and making sure the team has a clear understanding of expectations)or they don't care to put in the effort for gio every game. Both of those outcomes are not favorable to gio. Now you want more evidence that it is likely one of those situations, ok......
C) the things players have said last year and this year. Players showing their frustrations. Moreno, Williamson, zuparic, ivacic. have I missed anyone? Players coming out and saying they are upset in one way or another and 3 of those 4 specifically pointing the finger at gio. Not under spencer or porter have we had so many players publicly point the finger at the coach. Need more proof Gio should go. Ok...........
D) tactics. This one is not hard at all people. I could go deep into this comment and post how inept ge is but for people who maybe don't see it the same way I do, or others. Think of it like this. The coach teaches positioning. Be it offensively or defensively. The coach lines the players up in a formation. (4-2-3-1, 4-3-3) then gives them a system. (Press, counter pressing, mid-block, low block) the coaches job is to look at the players available and say, what is the best formation and system to get our best available players on the field? Once they have that figures out (to the best of their ability) it is the coaches job to show the players how to move in unison to cut out passing lanes and trap the opponents, forcing a turnover. (On the defensive side of the ball) and to teach the team how to move into those same passing lanes on the offensive side of the ball and create goal scoring opportunities. Be it from overloads, or off ball movement through patterns. That is something Columbus does extremely well. When you see a majority of your players standing around while others have the ball, that is a big indication that they aren't being taught those thing. They aren't being taught how to do it within the confines of gios formation and system.
Now that is one side of the equation. The things gio is not responsible for is a player shooting the ball to the moon. Misplaced passes. Dribbling into defenders. Those are all players choices based on talent and player IQ. now you judge each thing individually. How often do you see anything on the field that looks rehearsed? How many times are players getting into good position with quality chances to score? Just being around the box is not a quality chance. A quality chance is from a defender being out of position cause by those overloads and movement/passing patterns. The reality is that I don't see anything relating to "coaches responsibilities" out on the field. And that worries me because that is literally the things he is responsible for.
Now RCTEYEDEE has asked on many occasions "how many players have gotten better under gio." I don't think it is about players getting better in the finishing, speed, physicality, ect, ect side of things. I think gio is so bad at doing the things I mentioned above that he can't tell what a players best position is in certain formations. He doesn't know what the best system is with certain players on the field. He can't adjust and doesn't have the acumen to do it correctly. Then on top of that, he can't train the players to find quality chances around the box. Or how to get them to defend as one unit. And that hinders what we would call, "getting better"
Gio definitely needs to go, because
A) this team is given such a low bar to achieve by him, that they feel they can play like crap for most of the year with no repercussions, and somehow that is acceptable to fans.
B) he is setting the team and individual players to fail with his lack of any really tactical intelligence and player placement. That in turn is getting the worst out of the players, not the best.
Wasn't he? I love it when he asserts his quality on the ball and carouses up the pitch. He D was better than usual as well. He seemed much more motivated in this game than regular MLS games. It made me wonder if he was auditioning to play in Mexico again or does he have some kind of chip on his shoulder regarding Liga MX? At any rate, now I will be even more critical of him after seeing what he can REALLY do.
Overall, just a huge disappointment. The second yellow just ruined the game. Credit to the Timbers for trying their darndest a man down. As for the second yellow: yes, soft, but you really can't put your hands on another guy's head and put yourself in a bad situation. He's gotta learn from that.
The broadcasters said they are moving on, despite the loss, so mission accomplished and good job! It looks like they are highly motivated. Mora looked really good!
It is funny - this was a point of emphasis in MLS a few years ago where even the lightest brushes of the head were sometimes being sent off (I think the Diego Chara earlobe flick year) --- though many that year even were being let go, but most plays where there were hands, arms and definitely elbows that played head or neck were red cards. Then they dropped the point of emphasis and everything went back to old MLS where a flying elbow to the schnoz is 50/50 whether it will even be a yellow again.
These are all LigaMX refs, so I have to wonder if they put that point of emphasis in this year? Because most MLS refs are not even calling that a foul, let alone a 2nd yellow after your first one was given for dissent for complaining about a bad call on a non-foul.
Whether that's as a Yimmi replacement or a Moreno replacement for next year, it's at least encouraging that Portland's starting on their roster revamp.
I have no idea who this kid is, but his FBRef scouting report doesn't look like it's worth a $2.5 million transfer fee. The only thing that seems like he is good at is playing defense (for a winger). If it's actually a U22 singing, that means that we are going to have to move one of Santi, Mosquera, or Ayala or sign them to regular senior team deals.
Yeah, I don't know anything about him either, but if he's a winger that can play decent defense, that's not a bad thing. His list of comps on FBRef is Haaland, Kane, Benzema and a couple others - that ain't a bad list. Tangentially, in looking that up, Haaland's G/90 last year was an absolutely absurd 1.17. The next closest in the PL was at 0.86.
And I could easily see him as being an Ayala replacement if those are the options; I'm not sure how much fire was really behind the Santi Moreno "I want to leave" smoke, but I'd definitely prefer if he stayed.
I was just reading about Inter Messi signing their own U-22 initiative player and I didn't realize this:
"The U-22 initiative is so valuable because transfer fees aren’t calculated into the budget charge and the players hit the salary cap at a fixed, low cost. (a U-22 initiative player) will hit the salary cap at $200,000, no matter what his contract is."
That makes spending $2.5M on this kid a lot more understandable/reasonable. Miami's 20 year old signing, Facundo Farias, is at $5.5M. His FBRef comps are higher (Messi, CR7, De Bruyne, Havertz), but his scouting report sample size is a lot smaller (481 minutes) than Antony's (3000) so I'm not sure how much faith I put in Farias' comps at this point.
Back to the main thought, though - $2.5M for a kid who will only occupy 200K on the salary budget is a pretty decent risk to take, I think.
I think SEI isn't an option at this point. Looking at the rules (https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/2023-mls-roster-rules-and-regulations), it would appear that a player has to be SEI'd before July 5, and as far as I am aware, neither Ayala or Williamson were given that designation.
Yeah, I'm pretty OK with all that's been done so far. Acosta's basically a stopgap, but even still he's a solid pickup, and I'm really excited to see what Antony and Araujo can do.
Round of 32 matchup: Monterrey. They look really potent up top with Bertarame and Funes Mori - what a combo, and they have guys whipping in crosses on the ground, so they have service. The Timbers are at home, so that's a plus, and they are motivated. This will be a stiff test of the defense against a team that ran Seattle and RSL out of the park. Will they do the same to the Timbers? On offense, the Timbers will be missing Evander who can maintain possession and provide some offense or key passes. That responsibility may fall to Moreno, or at least I hope it does. I hope Moreno takes the 10 or the eight. This is a chance to see how the Timbers stack up against a regional power, and it's awesome that it will be at home. It should be an electric atmosphere.
"This will be a stiff test of the defense against a team that ran Seattle and RSL out of the park. Will they do the same to the Timbers? "
I mean, Monterrey are probably the best team in all of North America, so I'm not expecting much from the Timbers, nor will I condemn them for playing (and losing) badly if they do. It's going to be a good measuring stick for where the Timbers really are, but I'm also not thinking there will be a lot of lessons to take away either way; Monterrey are just on a different level than most teams in this tournament.
Should be a fun atmosphere, and I do hope the Timbers stay competitive, but this game won't add fuel to the fire that is the narrative(s) from this MLS season either way it goes.
This is the best I've seen the offense perform in a long, long time. I was surprised that Tigres didn't just dominate after the Red Card - the Timbers looked so much better down a man than I thought they could.
I really expected to be blown out. Instead it's just a typical Timbers coaching loss - high line beaten for a goal, expected inability to cover the far post on corners. It makes me wonder what the team could do with better coaching.
"hi line beaten for a goal" - what do you mean? The goal where Evander turned the ball over in mid-field? How is that Gio's fault? And Ridgy coaches the defense for set pieces so how is that Gio's fault?
I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if we'd lost 5 or 6 nil considering how the year's gone and Tigres' pedigree. I thought the game was super exciting, no small part due to the number of Tigres fans bringing so much energy to the game. Makes me wish there was at least one Mexican team in the MLS! I thought the Timbers played really well and I was impressed. Yes, what we look like with a different coach? I'd love to find out.
"It makes me wonder what the team could do with better coaching."
I would absolutely love to find out.
You are really stuck on the anti-Gio train. What is your rationale? As I've said before, the solution is more complex. It begins with ownership.
I am hardly the only passenger on that train.
For me, though, it's the stagnation that has afflicted this roster and team since 2021. Other than Dairon Asprilla, name a current Timbers player that has gotten appreciably better under Gio in the last 3-4 years. That list is very, very short. Also, look at the complete disintegration of anything resembling a coherent system/style of play, particularly last year; that trend has continued this season as well, through the injury-hit start of the season until now. There are flashes of a good team in there, but even in Saturday night's win, the Timbers didn't really look all that coherent for large stretches of the game. Just look, for example, at how well Columbus passed and moved the ball a couple weeks ago - it was easy to tell that they had a system, they knew what to do to execute that system, and while the Timbers did win that game, Columbus looked threatening throughout. I want the Timbers to be that.
I have said multiple times that I know a new coach will not miraculously turn this group into MLS Cup contenders. I do, however, believe that after six seasons, Gio's players aren't really responding to his training in productive ways - they're seemingly running on muscle memory at this point. I don't mean that in a "he's lost the locker room" kind of way; it's just that after this long of one way of doing things, there's a natural tendency, when a boss/leader starts talking, for someone to go "yeah, yeah, I know" and then just go out and do what they always do.
It's my belief that a new coach, who would bring new ideas and a new training structure/style, would be a breath of fresh air that might at least be able to get this group to play more consistently and more coherently.
The way I've put it a lot is that a new coach may not turn this roster into a juggernaut, but a new coach may well turn what is today a dispiriting 4-1 loss into a closer loss, a 2-2 draw or even an occasional win. And a new coach may make the team more entertaining to watch, which is really the root of what I want.
"the solution is more complex"
I agree with you, and I would even say that there is no one "the solution" to the mess the Timbers are in. But, given that ownership isn't going to change any time soon - whether that be the actual owner (which is the dream) or in the current owner's ownership style, we're stuck with "what can we change to freshen things up?". You can't fire the players, and the boss isn't going to fire the GM he just promoted; that leaves a coaching change.
If the Timbers miss the playoffs again this year, or if they sneak in at a 9 seed and lose that play-in game, it will be harder and harder for Gio to defend his position I think; in a league with an extreeeeeeeemely friendly playoff structure (63% of MLS teams make the playoffs!), missing the playoffs two years in a row, or crashing out of a play-in, should basically be any coach's ticket out the door.
Of course it's not just the coach. The FO hasn't built well, although I imagine the coach has input into that. Ownership is embarrassing and damaging. But....
We've seen the same defensive failures year after year after year after year no matter the personnel. It's like the back post doesn't exist on corners and it hasn't existed for at least the last 4 years. That's just bad coaching.
I really like Savarese as a person. He seems like someone who'd be awesome to spend time with. But that, alas, doesn't make him a good coach. The back post tells me he's not getting the job done, defensively.
If you listened to him post game the back post was open because we were short a man and had to leave somewhere open. He said usually that is where parades is but with evander being off we had to move people around. They found it so good on them.
Okay, so, that's one game. Now explain the rest of the last 1.5-plus seasons.
If you watched the play, the back post was open because Mosquera fell asleep or got caught ball watching. It's not that there was nobody there, it's that the player there just didn't do his job. If it was just the one time or the one player, it wouldn't be a thing so many of us harp on. This is SOP for the recent years of Timbers corner defending.
https://youtu.be/qH-v50_XQkA
Shameless plug -- video up for Santiago Moreno for his two sub appearances vs San Jose and Tigres. He’s been a very polarizing player recently, with some questioning if he’s really all that good. And from what I’ve gathered from the past two games, he’s still a damn good player, and he was really good. Picked up some really good spots, had some wonderful touches (his touch and turn in minute 7:30 on the video stands out), and some great passes. Most of the clips vs Tigres are him putting in defensive work, and he had to do a TON of defense. They mostly attacked down his side, and he did very well covering space and teaming up with Bravo to shut that side down. I’m really hoping Moreno gets the start next match because I think he’s ready ball out
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, this was a return for Ivacic! Still not entirely sure what’s going on there, but it was good to have him back. Remember when we (most of us I believe) were saying Ivacic was the better shot stopper but Bingham was the better distributor? Yeah that’s gone out the window hasn’t it. The difference in distribution was night and day. Ivacic didn’t kick the ball out of bounds four times a game (or at all) and his long balls had purpose, it was great. I hope Ivacic stays as the starter
After watching other better MLS teams fall to the great Liga MX teams like Monterrey and America, I think our performance might be our most impressive performance of the year. Before the card I would go so far to say that we were the better team. Tigres had very few chances, and we looked extremely dangerous in the attack. We looked organized! And coherent! And well coached! And even when we went down a man, we held on until the 80th minute, and we conceded only due to a defensive mental lapse. Against one of the best teams on the continent. That’s impressive as hell, and this kind of performance is the type of thing that can take us on a run. I give Gio a lot of credit, the players look far more motivated than they have in recent months, and we look a lot better
All the Evander stuff is bs. First challenge is absolutely a yellow, it was a clear elbow to the head and Evander even jabs it out a bit. Second one, he’s just trying to get out of the way, clearly trying to get his arm over the player. Not sure why he’s doing that but I feel like it’s pretty clear to see that, nothing intentional at all. Now for next game, I’m really hoping we stick with the 4-3-3 and stick Moreno in the middle and let him cook. He’s played quite well the past two games off the bench, and actually had some really nice set pieces.
Mora was awesome, his injuries have not affected his mind one bit. He combines so well with the rest of the team and always pops up in the right space. And is great at drawing fouls, which is how we got our free kick for Evander to score. Bringing Niezgoda made no sense. Taking off Mora is fine, he’s coming back from injury, but if Boli isn’t ready to go 45 then I would’ve rather seen Nathan or Asprilla up top. In a 4-4-1 down a man, we needed our striker to play defense like hell, hold up the ball, and be threat in behind with speed. Niezgoda provides none of those. He had a few good moments but there were at least two times during counter attacks where one of our wingers was dribbling down the line and he just drifted to the far post and waited, not providing any support or anything. He’s gotta support or make a run in behind to take a defender with him to open up space. Whether you like Jaro or not, he is not the man for being a single striker while down a man against one of the best teams in the region. That one’s on Gio
I agree. It was impressive to do what they did. I was just bummed that they were kinda hanging on and couldn't go toe to toe with them.
And yes, looking forward to Moreno in the middle.
Looks like there is reason for hope in Timbertown after a pretty hopeless season so far. The Timbers were up for the game and it was exciting for a change! Evander's petulance and Mosquera ball watching on the corner were relatively isolated lapses that probably caused the loss. At the end, the announcers said the Timbers are through to the knockout round regardless of the outcome of the Tigres/San Jose game due to goal differential? I don't see San Jose pummeling Tigres 4-0 or whatever, but strange things happen sometimes. Aloha.
If San Jose beat Tigres by 3+, we go through in second place because Tigres goes to third place. If San Jose barely beats Tigres by <3, we go through in first. If Tigres, wins, we go through in second place.
If San Jose goes up by >3, then we share the points with Tigres at 3. First tie breaker is head to head, which would put Tigres through.
From the leagues cup's own web page. So the discussion during the game by the terribly biased against Timbers and uneducated on the rules was WRONG!!!
First tie-breaking criterion:
Head-to-head result between the tied Clubs: If the teams are still tied on points, the team that has earned more points against the other tied team(s) will advance.
Second tie-breaking criterion:
Goal difference: If two or more teams have the same number of points at the end of the group stage and have also drawn their direct encounter, the tie-breaker will be the goal difference. This is the number of goals scored by a team minus the number of goals it has conceded. The team with the highest goal difference will rank above its rivals in the table.
Third tie-breaking criterion:
Greater number of goals scored: If the goal difference is the same, the total number of goals scored in the group stage matches will be considered. The team that has scored more goals will advance to the next round.
If the recap is going to editorialize ("What he did to earn the red card was childish and can't happen again"), at least describe the offense. Those of us who were at the stadium only saw a brief replay that was very ambiguous--in fact it looked to me as if it could have been accidental. If consensus is that it wasn't, I want to hear why. I don't come to StumptownFooty just for the comments, interesting as they often are. I also want to know what I missed, either at the stadium or at home, and I can't trust the official MLS and Timbers sites to tell me without bias.
(And what does "I guess these are the cards the Timbers have to deal with nowadays" mean, exactly?)
Evander's Hand came down on the Tigres player's head. The replay I saw looked like it brushed his head, but the Tigres player went down like he was beaten by a baseball bat. My best guess on the card was that the ref saw the hand near the head and the response, and carded him for hitting the player in the head. Since it was a yellow card, I don't think it was reviewable so the red stands regardless of what could have been seen on the replay. Soft foul, and the ultimate result was far harsher than the infraction warranted. But as others have said, once you are on a yellow card you have to be careful.
My take on the calls, Evander should have been given a talking to on the first yellow, and then a yellow is warranted on the second. But to pull cards that quickly when the ref wasn't earlier (the Tigres fouls) was too harsh.
Hard to say Evander deserves a yellow card for the challenge when it isn’t even a foul and parades is bleeding from the nose.
The ref instigated during the first half instead of being a calming influence. And his worst offense to me was he was not consistent. Be bad if you want or whatever but be consistent.
I agree on your take on the second yellow, but differ a little bit on the first. I don't like to see any blows to the head, and the first one, whether he intended it or not, was an elbow or at least bicep to the head and looked like he caught him pretty good. I can see a talking too on one end of the spectrum and then a yellow on the other end. The ref went the other end, and once he does, Evander should be more careful.
I suspect Evander gets frustrated with himself for losing the ball and acts out sometimes. He seems like a perfectionist, which is good for a leader, but he needs to control the negative impulses.
I can see that. Part of my perspective is that the ref wasn't pulling yellows on hard fouls earlier, so I didn't understand why he did there. But a blow to the head can definitely warrant a yellow. The calls are defensible, but harsh. And the calls influenced the outcome of the game, which is not what a ref should be doing.
I’m pretty sure that you are correct about the yellow card not being eligible for VAR. I think all yellows should be reviewable, maybe with a coaches’ challenge if there are just too many yellow cards. At a minimum, when a yellow card leads to a red card and an ejection (and a team playing shorthanded) that yellow needs to be reviewed. The result is the same as a straight red card, which can be reviewed.
I agree with you, but it has been this way for years and I don't see it stopping.
Most yellow card infractions are subjective "in the opinion of the referee" as are many reds (DOGSO for example).
Review is fairly pointless if the CR is going to maintain his opinion that any arm to head contact is reckless (or even that it was in this case and no matter how many TV replays you see you are not going to change that subjective opinion made in the moment).
It is true that 2 yellows is definitely a catch-22 to the idea that VAR will fix bad calls, because it can't fix most yellow offenses.
The best breakdown can be found here. Decide for yourself.
https://youtu.be/AE3o6X-9gnk
Thanks for the link!
So just to comment on the all around comments.
1) "the offensive performance of the year."
A) based on who we were playing, I would say it was one of the best all around performances of the year. Especially when we kept a very good team off the board down a man for the entire second half. However, best offensive game? No. That still goes to the Seattle game. In this game we had a lot of chances to be threatening around the box and most times we shot ourselves in the foot. In no way was the team clinical in the box, or efficient.
2. Still #gioout?
A) yup. Being #gioout does not mean that the team is playing bad. Just like the team winning a game here and there doesn't mean the team is playing good. When I look at the whole team situation, I see a couple troubling things when it is related to gio, and a couple wins is not going to change that. One of the things I see is.......
B) why does the team not try at all for most of the season and the only time they do try is either, playing a rivalry game. Or playing a team like tigres, that they know will give them recognition if they do well. That tells me that they are playing for themselves. Not the team and not for Gio. Now I say that because how can they play so well against Seattle, Columbus, tigres, and then play like crap to mid table and bottom dweller teams. Somehow gio just gets it right against really good teams and really wrong against shit teams? That does not make sense. If anything, it tells me that the team has the ability but either don't think they need to put in the work every game, (Which is on gio and making sure the team has a clear understanding of expectations)or they don't care to put in the effort for gio every game. Both of those outcomes are not favorable to gio. Now you want more evidence that it is likely one of those situations, ok......
C) the things players have said last year and this year. Players showing their frustrations. Moreno, Williamson, zuparic, ivacic. have I missed anyone? Players coming out and saying they are upset in one way or another and 3 of those 4 specifically pointing the finger at gio. Not under spencer or porter have we had so many players publicly point the finger at the coach. Need more proof Gio should go. Ok...........
D) tactics. This one is not hard at all people. I could go deep into this comment and post how inept ge is but for people who maybe don't see it the same way I do, or others. Think of it like this. The coach teaches positioning. Be it offensively or defensively. The coach lines the players up in a formation. (4-2-3-1, 4-3-3) then gives them a system. (Press, counter pressing, mid-block, low block) the coaches job is to look at the players available and say, what is the best formation and system to get our best available players on the field? Once they have that figures out (to the best of their ability) it is the coaches job to show the players how to move in unison to cut out passing lanes and trap the opponents, forcing a turnover. (On the defensive side of the ball) and to teach the team how to move into those same passing lanes on the offensive side of the ball and create goal scoring opportunities. Be it from overloads, or off ball movement through patterns. That is something Columbus does extremely well. When you see a majority of your players standing around while others have the ball, that is a big indication that they aren't being taught those thing. They aren't being taught how to do it within the confines of gios formation and system.
Now that is one side of the equation. The things gio is not responsible for is a player shooting the ball to the moon. Misplaced passes. Dribbling into defenders. Those are all players choices based on talent and player IQ. now you judge each thing individually. How often do you see anything on the field that looks rehearsed? How many times are players getting into good position with quality chances to score? Just being around the box is not a quality chance. A quality chance is from a defender being out of position cause by those overloads and movement/passing patterns. The reality is that I don't see anything relating to "coaches responsibilities" out on the field. And that worries me because that is literally the things he is responsible for.
Now RCTEYEDEE has asked on many occasions "how many players have gotten better under gio." I don't think it is about players getting better in the finishing, speed, physicality, ect, ect side of things. I think gio is so bad at doing the things I mentioned above that he can't tell what a players best position is in certain formations. He doesn't know what the best system is with certain players on the field. He can't adjust and doesn't have the acumen to do it correctly. Then on top of that, he can't train the players to find quality chances around the box. Or how to get them to defend as one unit. And that hinders what we would call, "getting better"
Gio definitely needs to go, because
A) this team is given such a low bar to achieve by him, that they feel they can play like crap for most of the year with no repercussions, and somehow that is acceptable to fans.
B) he is setting the team and individual players to fail with his lack of any really tactical intelligence and player placement. That in turn is getting the worst out of the players, not the best.
Of all the things last night.
That was Bravo's best game as a Timber. He was an absolute beast.
Wasn't he? I love it when he asserts his quality on the ball and carouses up the pitch. He D was better than usual as well. He seemed much more motivated in this game than regular MLS games. It made me wonder if he was auditioning to play in Mexico again or does he have some kind of chip on his shoulder regarding Liga MX? At any rate, now I will be even more critical of him after seeing what he can REALLY do.
Overall, just a huge disappointment. The second yellow just ruined the game. Credit to the Timbers for trying their darndest a man down. As for the second yellow: yes, soft, but you really can't put your hands on another guy's head and put yourself in a bad situation. He's gotta learn from that.
The broadcasters said they are moving on, despite the loss, so mission accomplished and good job! It looks like they are highly motivated. Mora looked really good!
It is funny - this was a point of emphasis in MLS a few years ago where even the lightest brushes of the head were sometimes being sent off (I think the Diego Chara earlobe flick year) --- though many that year even were being let go, but most plays where there were hands, arms and definitely elbows that played head or neck were red cards. Then they dropped the point of emphasis and everything went back to old MLS where a flying elbow to the schnoz is 50/50 whether it will even be a yellow again.
These are all LigaMX refs, so I have to wonder if they put that point of emphasis in this year? Because most MLS refs are not even calling that a foul, let alone a 2nd yellow after your first one was given for dissent for complaining about a bad call on a non-foul.
so I’so m O n hi
You don't say.
OT a little bit, but Timbers are apparently about to sign a Brazilian winger, a 22 YO kid currently playing in Portugal:
https://theathletic.com/4727891/2023/07/27/portland-timbers-antony-arouca/ (behind paywall but I believe a certain number of articles are free every month)
Whether that's as a Yimmi replacement or a Moreno replacement for next year, it's at least encouraging that Portland's starting on their roster revamp.
I have no idea who this kid is, but his FBRef scouting report doesn't look like it's worth a $2.5 million transfer fee. The only thing that seems like he is good at is playing defense (for a winger). If it's actually a U22 singing, that means that we are going to have to move one of Santi, Mosquera, or Ayala or sign them to regular senior team deals.
Dang, I'd rather hear he is good at offense
Yeah, I don't know anything about him either, but if he's a winger that can play decent defense, that's not a bad thing. His list of comps on FBRef is Haaland, Kane, Benzema and a couple others - that ain't a bad list. Tangentially, in looking that up, Haaland's G/90 last year was an absolutely absurd 1.17. The next closest in the PL was at 0.86.
And I could easily see him as being an Ayala replacement if those are the options; I'm not sure how much fire was really behind the Santi Moreno "I want to leave" smoke, but I'd definitely prefer if he stayed.
I was just reading about Inter Messi signing their own U-22 initiative player and I didn't realize this:
"The U-22 initiative is so valuable because transfer fees aren’t calculated into the budget charge and the players hit the salary cap at a fixed, low cost. (a U-22 initiative player) will hit the salary cap at $200,000, no matter what his contract is."
That makes spending $2.5M on this kid a lot more understandable/reasonable. Miami's 20 year old signing, Facundo Farias, is at $5.5M. His FBRef comps are higher (Messi, CR7, De Bruyne, Havertz), but his scouting report sample size is a lot smaller (481 minutes) than Antony's (3000) so I'm not sure how much faith I put in Farias' comps at this point.
Back to the main thought, though - $2.5M for a kid who will only occupy 200K on the salary budget is a pretty decent risk to take, I think.
Yeah, that's why SEI-ing Ayala makes more sense than Williamson.
I think SEI isn't an option at this point. Looking at the rules (https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/2023-mls-roster-rules-and-regulations), it would appear that a player has to be SEI'd before July 5, and as far as I am aware, neither Ayala or Williamson were given that designation.
Reading one of the Timbers fan sites, it does appear we put Ayala on the list.
And despite all that, the Timbers lost...
What a beautiful goal by Evander. Granted, I think Mora deserves a yellow for the celebration!
Welcome to the Rose City:
Antony - the winger. Smooth runner and clean shot. Got a good feeling about this.
Bryan Acosta - midfielder. We really needed some depth and/or starter and he has a good resume. I like this acquisition as well.
Nice job Ned for this transfer window, if you include the new CB. Let's go!
Yeah, I'm pretty OK with all that's been done so far. Acosta's basically a stopgap, but even still he's a solid pickup, and I'm really excited to see what Antony and Araujo can do.
There have been red cards shown in over 40% of the Leagues Cup matches so far
Round of 32 matchup: Monterrey. They look really potent up top with Bertarame and Funes Mori - what a combo, and they have guys whipping in crosses on the ground, so they have service. The Timbers are at home, so that's a plus, and they are motivated. This will be a stiff test of the defense against a team that ran Seattle and RSL out of the park. Will they do the same to the Timbers? On offense, the Timbers will be missing Evander who can maintain possession and provide some offense or key passes. That responsibility may fall to Moreno, or at least I hope it does. I hope Moreno takes the 10 or the eight. This is a chance to see how the Timbers stack up against a regional power, and it's awesome that it will be at home. It should be an electric atmosphere.
"This will be a stiff test of the defense against a team that ran Seattle and RSL out of the park. Will they do the same to the Timbers? "
I mean, Monterrey are probably the best team in all of North America, so I'm not expecting much from the Timbers, nor will I condemn them for playing (and losing) badly if they do. It's going to be a good measuring stick for where the Timbers really are, but I'm also not thinking there will be a lot of lessons to take away either way; Monterrey are just on a different level than most teams in this tournament.
Should be a fun atmosphere, and I do hope the Timbers stay competitive, but this game won't add fuel to the fire that is the narrative(s) from this MLS season either way it goes.