"Ned hasn’t impressed me yet beyond his reputation but he’s still saddled with a bunch of Wilkinson and Paulson created problems."
Yeah, that's why I think this off season is crucial - Ned hasn't really had a chance to do his own thing, while he was dealing with untangling the mess that GW left behind (and it kind of can't be understated …
"Ned hasn’t impressed me yet beyond his reputation but he’s still saddled with a bunch of Wilkinson and Paulson created problems."
Yeah, that's why I think this off season is crucial - Ned hasn't really had a chance to do his own thing, while he was dealing with untangling the mess that GW left behind (and it kind of can't be understated how messed up this roster and salary structure was when GW was forced out). Now he can, and I hope he makes the most of it.
I'll own up to having been generally impressed with GW as a dealmaker. I don't think his scouting was good and he's a dishonest, garbage person. But I thought he was shrewd about navigating the rules and juggling finances. He made enough unpopular decisions that I don't really buy that fan pressure influenced him directly, but I could see him being overruled by Paulson's petulance. But the state of things now really undermines my assessment of him even with respect to the financial decisions.
That said, regardless of how creative he was with signings, we wasted so many prospects by not properly scouting players and/or fielding them out of position, or never really giving them opportunities. We crashed the potential or stalled the progression of a number of players because we didn't see what we had or properly utilize it. That isn't to say all of that is GW's fault, but the coaches were chosen by him and Paulson, answered to them, and had to work within their constraints.
I think GW was good at juggling finances in the short term. Unfortunately, contracts aren't short-term, and a lot of the decisions GW made were for the now at the expense of the later.
GW wasn't really one to care about what the salary budget looked like three years from now; he was trying to optimize a roster for winning now. Which works great as an "all in" strategy if you get good players that can, you know, win now. But he couldn't do that. And so he left behind a big ol' mess that Ned is in the midst of cleaning up.
Interesting perspective on GW possibly being "all in" but I don't know if I agree. He knew and even, via Paulson, had some influence on what changes MLS was making to roster rules going forward, so he was trying to plan ahead. I disagree with how he went about it and think he often failed but I don't think he was so focused on winning now. I think we'd have taken fewer risks if that was the case. In general, I think terrible scouting and man management just made some of his deals look worse in retrospect. But ultimately I think there's a balance between trying to win now and build a sustainably successful club. I would agree that the results and his approach lean more toward the former than the latter, but wouldn't characterize it as "all in" for the now.
Except Ned doesn’t have his “own thing.” He’s on the latest iteration of a new position. IDK why so many folks think that Ned can solve these problems. Player quality has dropped across his entire tenure in the FO. He’s been the guy for what, five or six years now. And 2023 Timbers are what he has to show for it.
I don't think it's fair to say that Ned has been "the guy" for five or six years. GW was "the guy" since pre-MLS, and it didn't really seem, to my untrained outside eye, that GW welcomed a lot of assistance.
I don't think Ned's a miracle worker. I do think that now that the job is solely his, and now that he is getting out from under the mess GW made of both the salary budget and the playing roster, I am willing to give him a window or two to do things solely his way.
Nobody's bulletproof, and I will criticize Ned plenty where and when it's warranted, but I honestly don't think we've seen Ned do things on his own as GM for enough time to assume he can't do the job.
I'm just saying he doesn't have "a thing". He may be able to figure out a successful "thing." But it's not like he has a proven track record and FO is preventing him from doing this proven "thing." He's learning what the "thing" is in the first place.
I've laid it out before, Ned has been in critical leadership roles in the FO for what, five or six years now. Sure, most of that overlapped with Worm Tongue's tenure, and Ned is certainly having to deal with that blast radius. Maybe once the smoke clears, Ned will start hitting home runs and turn the coaching staff and roster into a legitimate force. But as of today, he's never proven he can do that, because he's never been in this position (or any of the positions he's held at PTFC). All we have is a fucking dumpster fire of a team -- a fire which has grown hotter during his tenure in the FO. Causation or correlation? Not sure if we can tell that right now.
Trust me, I want Ned to be successful. I really, really do. But I can't be confident he will because he has no proven track record. I double dog dare him to prove my pessimism wrong.
Right, and I'm not blindly asserting he'll be Lagerwey-level good. He might suck! He might just be mediocre-to-fine! But we don't really know at this point, so I'm reserving judgment and being optimistic. Optimism is in short supply right now so I'm taking that path. We'll see.
I tend to go with EyeDee's school of thought here.
Ned has been in several roles in the FO ... essentially learning how a FO works, since 2017. I have no doubt GW dominated everything in a very top down FO prior to his promotion to the position 9 months ago. He walked into some deals already done and probalby spent his first 6 months trying to reassure other possible deals that they were still being considered, had to sell Tuiloma and is now dealing with a coach who has lost the locker room and probably an owner who doesn't GAF and backs the coach. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Ned is looking for an escape hatch if the dysfunction continues like this.
But assuming he can right the ship, find younger and better players who want to play for the club and an owner willing to give him the tools to do so, this is going to take 2-3 years to build out of what feels like a dumpster fire right now.
"Ned hasn’t impressed me yet beyond his reputation but he’s still saddled with a bunch of Wilkinson and Paulson created problems."
Yeah, that's why I think this off season is crucial - Ned hasn't really had a chance to do his own thing, while he was dealing with untangling the mess that GW left behind (and it kind of can't be understated how messed up this roster and salary structure was when GW was forced out). Now he can, and I hope he makes the most of it.
I'll own up to having been generally impressed with GW as a dealmaker. I don't think his scouting was good and he's a dishonest, garbage person. But I thought he was shrewd about navigating the rules and juggling finances. He made enough unpopular decisions that I don't really buy that fan pressure influenced him directly, but I could see him being overruled by Paulson's petulance. But the state of things now really undermines my assessment of him even with respect to the financial decisions.
That said, regardless of how creative he was with signings, we wasted so many prospects by not properly scouting players and/or fielding them out of position, or never really giving them opportunities. We crashed the potential or stalled the progression of a number of players because we didn't see what we had or properly utilize it. That isn't to say all of that is GW's fault, but the coaches were chosen by him and Paulson, answered to them, and had to work within their constraints.
I think GW was good at juggling finances in the short term. Unfortunately, contracts aren't short-term, and a lot of the decisions GW made were for the now at the expense of the later.
GW wasn't really one to care about what the salary budget looked like three years from now; he was trying to optimize a roster for winning now. Which works great as an "all in" strategy if you get good players that can, you know, win now. But he couldn't do that. And so he left behind a big ol' mess that Ned is in the midst of cleaning up.
Interesting perspective on GW possibly being "all in" but I don't know if I agree. He knew and even, via Paulson, had some influence on what changes MLS was making to roster rules going forward, so he was trying to plan ahead. I disagree with how he went about it and think he often failed but I don't think he was so focused on winning now. I think we'd have taken fewer risks if that was the case. In general, I think terrible scouting and man management just made some of his deals look worse in retrospect. But ultimately I think there's a balance between trying to win now and build a sustainably successful club. I would agree that the results and his approach lean more toward the former than the latter, but wouldn't characterize it as "all in" for the now.
Except Ned doesn’t have his “own thing.” He’s on the latest iteration of a new position. IDK why so many folks think that Ned can solve these problems. Player quality has dropped across his entire tenure in the FO. He’s been the guy for what, five or six years now. And 2023 Timbers are what he has to show for it.
I don't think it's fair to say that Ned has been "the guy" for five or six years. GW was "the guy" since pre-MLS, and it didn't really seem, to my untrained outside eye, that GW welcomed a lot of assistance.
I don't think Ned's a miracle worker. I do think that now that the job is solely his, and now that he is getting out from under the mess GW made of both the salary budget and the playing roster, I am willing to give him a window or two to do things solely his way.
Nobody's bulletproof, and I will criticize Ned plenty where and when it's warranted, but I honestly don't think we've seen Ned do things on his own as GM for enough time to assume he can't do the job.
I'm just saying he doesn't have "a thing". He may be able to figure out a successful "thing." But it's not like he has a proven track record and FO is preventing him from doing this proven "thing." He's learning what the "thing" is in the first place.
I've laid it out before, Ned has been in critical leadership roles in the FO for what, five or six years now. Sure, most of that overlapped with Worm Tongue's tenure, and Ned is certainly having to deal with that blast radius. Maybe once the smoke clears, Ned will start hitting home runs and turn the coaching staff and roster into a legitimate force. But as of today, he's never proven he can do that, because he's never been in this position (or any of the positions he's held at PTFC). All we have is a fucking dumpster fire of a team -- a fire which has grown hotter during his tenure in the FO. Causation or correlation? Not sure if we can tell that right now.
Trust me, I want Ned to be successful. I really, really do. But I can't be confident he will because he has no proven track record. I double dog dare him to prove my pessimism wrong.
Right, and I'm not blindly asserting he'll be Lagerwey-level good. He might suck! He might just be mediocre-to-fine! But we don't really know at this point, so I'm reserving judgment and being optimistic. Optimism is in short supply right now so I'm taking that path. We'll see.
I tend to go with EyeDee's school of thought here.
Ned has been in several roles in the FO ... essentially learning how a FO works, since 2017. I have no doubt GW dominated everything in a very top down FO prior to his promotion to the position 9 months ago. He walked into some deals already done and probalby spent his first 6 months trying to reassure other possible deals that they were still being considered, had to sell Tuiloma and is now dealing with a coach who has lost the locker room and probably an owner who doesn't GAF and backs the coach. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Ned is looking for an escape hatch if the dysfunction continues like this.
But assuming he can right the ship, find younger and better players who want to play for the club and an owner willing to give him the tools to do so, this is going to take 2-3 years to build out of what feels like a dumpster fire right now.
Touché. I'm enjoying staring into the abyss lmao.