In terms of roster construction relative to age of players, the Fleming for Rocky move makes a ton of sense. I'm guessing Rocky has 1-2 years of high level play left on those wheels. Doesn't mean she won't stick around longer, but this is a "selling high" situation. Having said that, Rocky is an amazing person and has given everything to this club. Putting aside THE GOAL in 2022, her absolute domination of the Reign midfield at the end of last season will be my defining memory of her on the pitch. Everything great about her game came out that night. Plus, she put FIshlock on her ass, which makes her my hero.
Fleming is a get, but I sure hope they have a plan to get Liv a ton of minutes. Since Hina is a winger in Norris' mind, I would like a good long run starting at the 10 for her. I think she has all the tools to play it at a high level.
I do think we are staying ahead of the curve with both Dunn and Rocky, which I always like to do. I think Fleming will have more stamina than Rocky, too, which will open up options late in games.
Rocky, such a warm and genuine smile and as nice as can be, but an absolute destroyer on the field - I love it. Will definitely miss her.
I had this whole reading list of books to check out from the library that was only books from Becky's bookshelf from the background of some interview, lol...
You are not alone there. I’ve said I’d hire Becky based on her disposition, intellect, and maturity alone.
I’m convinced Becky could do any job in a soccer organization right now and do it well. I wouldn’t bet against her in any role she chooses to do. She fascinates me and I’ve loved several books that I’ve seen on her shelfs
My guess are those are some of her balance drills. She is a professional athlete. I had enough trouble with my additional tread on my shoes during the storm
Let's not miss the forest for the trees here. Even for with the Canadian connection, 250K on a in-prime Chelsea midfielder is literally more than I could ever hoped for. It simultaneously shows the Bhathals are more than willing to spend (and big!) while adding a reallly, really good player to this team.
I'd say she gets some of Moultrie's minutes, some of Hina's, some of Beckie's and some of Rocky's. We are NOT in the place to whine about signing Jessie Fleming, people. Even though she plays in the position of some of our better players, it is OBJECTIVELY GREAT that we were able to sign her. We don't have the depth --yes, even in midfield-- to be worried too much about minute distribution. It's fair to ask if the resources would be better spent elsewhere, but this is still a homerun.
So, we don't need to congratulate Karina. But this is a big fucking deal and I think we can take a break from panicking for a day or two assuming Becky is back too.
The problem I see is that all of the players you named, Moultrie, Hina, Rocky (but maybe not Beckie), deserve to be starters playing 60-80 minutes. It just doesn't make sense to have any of those players sitting on the bench for most of the game, same goes for Fleming. Maybe there is another move coming? That would at least make sense.
It’s a fair question, but Fleming is a CLEARLY better player than all of them possibly excepting Hina on her day. I know we love Moultrie and her flashes, but she hasn’t shown herself to be a full-time starter yet. Rocky’s really good, but not irreplaceable. Flemimg’s also spent some time as an inverted winger, so I wouldn’t be shocked to see her there. Bottom line, when you have the chance to sign Jessie Fleming, you do it. Moreover, there’s plenty of time out there- The same players don’t start every game, so as I mentioned, I think she’ll get different players’ minutes depending on the week.
I think my bigger concern is the money spent would indicate they don’t have a big RB replacement in mind. I didn’t think they did anyhow so this doesn’t really change my feeling on it, but it’s still something they need to address. If they can pull in a Christen Westphal type to play RB, I’ll be feeling really good.
I'll take your word for it. I just want to see Moultrie play more to develop and I hate seeing Hina on the bench. Rocky is a bulldog but on the wrong side of 30 now and typically gets subbed out around 60-70, so that's fine. Condensed schedules with 3 games in a week will be clutch having depth.
One of my biggest concerns is we lacked depth across the board. I brought up that we’d likely be depending on Sinc more with Rocky moving into the starting lineup. This brings a predictable rotation with Moultrie and Rodriguez with the other subbing if there are any nagging injuries
I'm not yet sold on her being in-prime. She had a very good year two years ago, not last year and not this year. She's 25, so there's plenty of time for her to go up.
But I've already heard she's a "tremendous upgrade" over Dunn. Look back to who Crystal was at 25, not 30 and raising a pre-toddler without her partner present, and say that.
Now, I happen to be of the mind that it's time for us to stockpile quality. Take a look around the league and what's happening internationally. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, and let's keep our expectations in perspective.
I like exchanging a 31 year old for a 25 year old, though.
Also can get on board with stockpiling talent and figure out the roster later. Just hope that RB gets a quality replacement for Kuikka. Not sure if this move in any way hampers that effort (I don't know enough about transfer fees, salary cap, etc. to know).
Yeah, im definitely not saying this fixes the sins of the past and we can’t ignore the gaping hole at RB.....but if you told me the Bhathals were going to spend $300K on a Chelsea player less than a month into the job even yesterday, I wouldn’t have believed you. I want my team to make me happy and this makes me very happy.
I used poor wording. Over the course of the next three years, she’s likely a better fit than Dunn and younger. Crystal is still a great player.
That said, of the players with ties that would want to come here, she’s among the top 5 in terms of appeal. Macario, Fleming, Castellanos, Fishel, and Bunny Shaw have been the ones I’ve primarily looked at,
We tactically may choose to run a more centralized system with Sugita, but can we not pretend she wasn’t super productive last year.
Rocky is a viable starter. Having to better figure out how to utilize her is going to be key,
It’s also a sign that the new ownership group won’t be “stagnant” and Karina actually has a plan (which I was frankly concerned about). Losing Dunn was a horrendous loss and there wasn’t a player on the market that I thought was going to be a viable replacement, so it was hoping for the best with a talented team,
Karina has been working on this for years. When Fleming was visiting here, I refused to get my hopes up. When she said she was always trying to sign her, I frankly thought she was delusional. I’m giving her kudos for executing a plan and hoping this is a sign for Sophia to sign her long term
I would say this is more of a "play" than a "plan"... Shows that's ownership is willing to spend but says nothing about Karina having an actual vision.
See below. We’ve done this “signs objectively good player(s), ends up with problems instead of solutions”.
I’m not saying this is one! Fleming is a fine player and a good signing! Just not seeing how Norris uses her without losing effectiveness from other players…and I’m not familiar enough with Fleming to suss out if she’s THAT good to be worth those adjustments.
Jessie Fleming has been one of favorite players in the whole world since she was at UCLA, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but....she’s:
1. Extremely versatile. She can play as a deep lying 8, a 10, or an inverted winger.
2. Young, and probably hasn’t hit her ceiling yet.
3. Universally adored wherever she plays.
4. Really good in possession and an excellent passer.
5. Much more of a Rocky-style bulldog than people think. Look up her FBREF profile.
Obviously this could fail --as could all signings-- if that’s the lens we’re using, I’m not sure what we’re actually doing here. She’s a Dunn replacement. Unless Norris plays Sinc a ton, there are plenty of midfield minutes to go around.
So...yeah I think she’s good enough for a minor minute crunch to be very worth it. It’s also worth praising the Bhathals for literally breaking the NWSL transfer record weeks into their tenure given all the concern about inaction.
I have pretty much only seen her on Team Canada and the one thing that stood out to me is that she is a bulldog haha. Could have sworn I've seen her playing back toward the 18 area, but maybe that was just the game situation or something.
She seems like the kind of player you hate to play against but love to have on your team. Like Chara on the Timbers.
Haha that’s makes sense, she’s much more of an engine on Canada than a flair player. I think people who don’t watch a lot of her tend to believe she’s a finesse #10, but that’s not her game at all. It’s also why I think Rocky might be the one to lose some minutes (or that’s what I’d do if I was Norris, lord knows how he’ll handle it).
Yeah, that would make sense from the position and the player she would replace as a starter or be subbed on for. Rocky has looked really fit lately (trimmer than she used to be if my eyes don't deceive me), but she seems to start to tire out at 60 or so.
Probably because she plays further up the field most of the time for both club and country. Fwiw, I do expect Norris to play her in a more attacking role, but I personally would try her at the 8 if I was making the lineup decisions because I think her game is actually pretty well-suited to it.
(also those fbref comps are....all over the place lol)
That's good to know! I don't see enough FAWSL to have a real feel for what she brings other than "good AM/WF".
Agree that "signing good players" is always a net positive.
I think we need to wait and see how Norris sets this group up (well, and sign a fucking RB - let's not do "Beckie as RB" given her defensive chops...). If he's got that plan? This could get good...
Part of me wonders if they are contemplating any of the draft picks to convert to RB. Linnehan actually had good defensive capabilities and is pretty adept at possession. She’s a bad long passer when her feet aren’t set, but that’s a specific skill and would be minimized if she were used like Kuikka. I would prefer her up, but we’ve seen it recently with Nighswonger which no one would have guessed or even McEwen at CB.
Its going to be an interesting training camp to see how Norris deals with his new players
The logical conversion is Obaze. She's 21 , has played RB professionally for years before going to Rosengard and playing CB. But, my understanding is that Obaze was brought here to play CB, so who knows?
And, frankly, we need Obaze at CB. Hubly had a poor season and Brunn has a recent history of injury which, at her age, is worrisome. Nally is below replacement-level.
Shifting Obaze wide trades one problem for another.
Yes. The big concern for me is that Norris won’t handle the minutes distribution correctly, or identify where each player is best. I’m less concerned about each player getting raw minutes and more worried about who they play with and where those minutes are played.
That’s kind of the drum I’ve been beating for a while now: the 2023 squad had a ton of talent but Norris couldn’t find ways to use it to make a consistently dangerous team.
So I’m happy to see big signings (and hoping that it means there’s a plan for RB that isn’t “move Beckie or Obaze there or hope to hell the NRI works out”) and hoping there’s a brilliant tactical strategy for all this.
She's definitely younger, but she hasn't been great at Chelsea for two years and this past year was averaging just 40 minutes a match (but perhaps that's because this was already in the works).
That’s fair. At 25, I still take Fleming any day of the week. Time will tell, but this looks like a tremendous get for both the Thorns and the NWSL. It also appears to be a good long game played by Karina.
It frankly makes the Kuikka and Dunn items look like choices to secure the funds necessary as opposed to a gaffe. Maybe that isn’t true, but it looks like that way.
Yeah, I agree it looks like Karina had a figure in mind that it would make sense to bring back Kuikka and wasn't going to go above it or negotiate against herself because she needed funds for Fleming.
The last genuinely good season Sinclair put in here was 2018, when she, Heath, and Horan scored 80% of the club’s goals. Since then her form has been slowly declining as her mobility does, to the point where she’s been ineffective most of her minutes over the past two seasons.
She really should have retired after the ‘21 season. In the small roster NWSL she can no longer create enough value to be worth the spot.
I tend to parallel your thinking. My biggest fear (as with all legend athletes) is she will make it harder and harder to remember the great days. When you stick around until you are old and average (or worse) the fans sour.
If she plays more than she should this year, at the expense of someone like Olivia Moultrie, I’m going to be really resentful. Perhaps in part because my first season was late ‘17 so I don’t really remember the superstar Sinclair days.
That’s kind of the hill I’m gonna die on; Sinc can’t take significant minutes from Moultrie (or Sugita or Rodriguez, for that matter) or I’m immediately on the #Norrisout train.
Sugita, Moultrie, and Rodriguez all deserve to start. We played Sugita up because Dunn deserved to start over Rodriguez, but my assumption is Sugita is playing the same position she did last year
In the last handful of games, Sugita was playing more centrally, which I think is a better role for her. With Dunn gone, I'm really hoping that sticks. Sugita is potentially (and probably actually) our best central playmaker.
She had a burst of rejuvenation in the Fall Series - she was terrific. But it was like when Ichiro got a little jolt of rejuvenation when he went to the Yankees, and then again to the Marlins. It's just the last bits of magic getting squeezed out. I'd love to see Sinc go out on a run like Pujols did, not in mid-season ignominy like so many do.
If I’m going to be candid, Becky was the #1 player we needed to resign this offseason. She brings stability to the backline and is an incredible leader.
With Rocky Rodriguez as the player getting into the starting lineup with Dunn leaving, it helps handle the loss. She’s a starting player in this league and needs to be in the lineup. She’s not the two way menace that Dunn was, but she’s also a lot more physical.
If we resign Kuikka, I’m not as upset. I just hate losing a player who’s challenged for all IX and frankly gave us two physical, athletic fullbacks.
If I'm being candid, I'm nervous about a 39-year-old coming off major knee and foot injuries in successive years. I love Becky, but I'm preparing myself to see a tandem of Hubly and Obaze a lot this season playing in front of a goalie who may or may not be up to snuff. We also need to somehow adequately replace Kuikka, which seems unlikely.
The Hogan situation, IMO, is going to be a blessing in disguise. I believe she has the potential to be one of the best goaltenders in the league. Her athleticism seems like a clear upgrade
Don't get me wrong, I like Hogan. A lot. I'm a former keeper and I like what I've seen from her. But the goalie position can sometimes be voodoo and you never know who is going to end up being a long-term stud or a flash-in-the-pan. There is a mental aspect to the position unlike any other position, and you never know how goalies respond to struggling until they do. I think we've seen Bixby struggle with the mental aspect of the position. Regardless, I'm really glad we have her, I just wish we had an established veteran to back her up in case things go south.
I get that keepers can be volatile, but on a gut level as a fan watching, I was much less nervous when Hogan was back there. She seems cool. confident and not hesitant to come out to snuff out threats before they start. And I dunno if that PK performance at the WICC was a fluke, but if not, holy cow, that's a great asset...
Starting to feel a bit 2017-esque! Kassouf observes in his piece (below) that the Thorns tend to do things in cycles, not gradual changes. This would certainly fit that theory quite well, especially if they're not done yet.
So, JFlem huh?! I mean, it’s damn good quality to add to the roster absolutely, but I remain pessimistic that KK has no network beyond Canadians, who she has to pay too much for. Is the record transfer/Horan money a good spend here for a position we’re deepest in? Regardless, I like her as a person and she’s one of Canada’s better players so hell yuh to that!
I read from a few folks that when Jessie did play with Chelsea, she looked best on the wing? Anyone confirm? To me that kinda seems like her and Hina are interchangeable and one could play in a midfield 4 with Coffey, Rocky, Moultrie with Hina out wide, or, Coffey, Rocky, Moutrie, and Hina with Jessie out wide. Both would play more inverted forwards who interchange in the midfield…and worhh by our stockpiling of starting quality midfielders, it seems that’s most likely.
I think with this, our M/F line is covered, done. But I look at our back line still and hope to god there’s still one more signing coming besides Becky. I will pass out if we line up with Beckie at RB. Those are my initial morning thoughts…but gonna chew on it all some more.
I imagine the Becky news comes soon if they’re starting preseason today and wanna have content made.
I also think she has ties to the DK league, but that's driven by I believe that's more because she's leveraging her ties to Moscato and her time there. Ultimately, a deep network offers flexibility and I don't disagree with you. I think that was shown by last year's assistant choices, though I wonder if that was more driven by concern about long term stability. She did hire Lowdon this year.
I will suggest that Ashley Sanchez was acquired for the 5th pick and $150k. This seems inline with that. Sanchez is safer, but I would argue that Fleming was a more prominent player in college. Ideally, we would have signed Ashley Lawrence but the player has to come here.
Lots of options. Fleming or Sugita at the wing are pretty viable options. Trades are always possible as well.
When you can acquire a player of Fleming's quality, you do it. Period.
Oh she absolutely has no connections aside from Canadians, and oddly, Danes. Even removing the unforced errors from her CV, her main issue is that she's still completely green....and that's not even necessarily her fault. It'll take time to get those connections, but it is possible. I still very much want her gone....but I'm also open to the possibility for improvement.
Chelsea didn't use Fleming well at all after her first season or two- Prioritizing her best position wasn't a priority with the talent they had/have, so she did get a lot of minutes on the wing and looked fine. I'd still imagine she gets to play in midfield either as a 10 or 8, but she's more than capable of playing out wide too. I agree that it would be cool to see some version of a 4-2-2-2 with all four of Sam, Fleming, Hina, and Moultrie on the field with Rocky able to replace either Fleming or Moultrie. I've said this elsewhere, but "the position we're deepest in" is still very shallow and doesn't take into account Fleming's ability to play three different positions very well. I also subscribe to the notion that you should spend your big money along the spine of your team, and this certainly qualifies.
Still need a RB, but this is really nice indicator of ambition, if nothing else. Breaking the NWSL transfer record ain't something to scoff at. All I need to think of is how different I feel about the direction and intent of the Thorns when I went to bed last night vs. when I woke up this morning.
ALSO: Jessie Fleming is beloved by everybody. About as perfect a culture fit as you could want.
My guess is it was opportunism. They made their big move for this year earlier by breaking every Portland fans heart. Now two of my favorite midfielders are going to be playing for Air Pollution Central FC
They train in Thousand Oaks. I used to tease my friends who lived there that when I drove up a hill, the temperature went up 30 degrees during the summer. I used to mock that during my commute and wondered why anybody would live in the Valley
They’ve done next to nothing aside from bringing in two teens and losing Camberos, Weatherholt, Charley, and McKaskill, so this is their first real move of the offseason. I know their fans were getting a tad restless.
Serious question; anyone else get a sort of “Foord/AMC/Andressinha” feel from the Fleming signing? I’m perfectly willing to say it’s probably me, but still wondering.
I mean, there’s definite quality there but there also doesn’t seem to be an immediate hole to put her in, or a tactical vision she’s a critical piece of. To start her seems to require some real juggling, much of which is kind of a headscratcher.
She’s a fine player, so my initial reaction is “there’s gotta be a cunning plan for her and I’m just a dummy because I’m not instantly seeing it”.
I'm going to wait on some results. I was dead wrong about Hina's ability to thrive here.
I'm just not ready to proclaim Fleming as an improvement on Dunn or a great use of the transfer fee received for Horan.
She's someone, like Beckie and Leon, who has lost minutes at her WSL club and needed a place to train for international competition. Fleming's a better get than those two and has higher upside, but she's gotta get to that place for us.
She's had one very good club season and Champions League thus far, but three others that have been not all that special.
That’s why I’m puzzled; Fleming seems like a good piece…but WHERE?
This goes back to my biggest concern, which is how all these players get assembled into a big hammer. If Norris has a great plan for that? I’m a happy boy.
I remember having the same discussions about Sophia Smith and Morgan Weaver when they were acquired. You bring quality in and your coach is either good enough to manage it or you find one that is,
And Norris muled hell out of Smith last season, to the point where smarter coaches like Amoros figured out how to take her out of the match, and struggled to use Weaver in ways that maximized her pace and aggression and minimized her finishing/first touch issues.
But Norris is still here.
Hopefully the new owners have set things up - whether with Lowdon or something else - to pull the trigger quickly if all we get is clumps of brutal Norrisball this coming season.
Lol, I literally just told my cat that she might regret the fact that we live in a wooden house because her mom and I are burning this fucker down if it's an announcement of a second printing of Sinc's book...
In terms of roster construction relative to age of players, the Fleming for Rocky move makes a ton of sense. I'm guessing Rocky has 1-2 years of high level play left on those wheels. Doesn't mean she won't stick around longer, but this is a "selling high" situation. Having said that, Rocky is an amazing person and has given everything to this club. Putting aside THE GOAL in 2022, her absolute domination of the Reign midfield at the end of last season will be my defining memory of her on the pitch. Everything great about her game came out that night. Plus, she put FIshlock on her ass, which makes her my hero.
Fleming is a get, but I sure hope they have a plan to get Liv a ton of minutes. Since Hina is a winger in Norris' mind, I would like a good long run starting at the 10 for her. I think she has all the tools to play it at a high level.
Great post!
I do think we are staying ahead of the curve with both Dunn and Rocky, which I always like to do. I think Fleming will have more stamina than Rocky, too, which will open up options late in games.
Rocky, such a warm and genuine smile and as nice as can be, but an absolute destroyer on the field - I love it. Will definitely miss her.
In case you didn’t see it
https://twitter.com/ThornsFC/status/1749915425817968981
She’s back for another chapter
I'm impressed. Those floors are awfully slick for wearing cleats.
Notice the headings and side of the aisle for the section she's in?
Pacific Northwest
Canada
Americana
I had this whole reading list of books to check out from the library that was only books from Becky's bookshelf from the background of some interview, lol...
I would always eye her bookshelves in the Men In Blazers interviews lol
You are not alone there. I’ve said I’d hire Becky based on her disposition, intellect, and maturity alone.
I’m convinced Becky could do any job in a soccer organization right now and do it well. I wouldn’t bet against her in any role she chooses to do. She fascinates me and I’ve loved several books that I’ve seen on her shelfs
My guess are those are some of her balance drills. She is a professional athlete. I had enough trouble with my additional tread on my shoes during the storm
Thank gawd.
Whew! This was the one that the “no news” had me worried about. Glad she’s back.
Let's not miss the forest for the trees here. Even for with the Canadian connection, 250K on a in-prime Chelsea midfielder is literally more than I could ever hoped for. It simultaneously shows the Bhathals are more than willing to spend (and big!) while adding a reallly, really good player to this team.
I'd say she gets some of Moultrie's minutes, some of Hina's, some of Beckie's and some of Rocky's. We are NOT in the place to whine about signing Jessie Fleming, people. Even though she plays in the position of some of our better players, it is OBJECTIVELY GREAT that we were able to sign her. We don't have the depth --yes, even in midfield-- to be worried too much about minute distribution. It's fair to ask if the resources would be better spent elsewhere, but this is still a homerun.
So, we don't need to congratulate Karina. But this is a big fucking deal and I think we can take a break from panicking for a day or two assuming Becky is back too.
I think it's 250K pounds which is $317K.
The problem I see is that all of the players you named, Moultrie, Hina, Rocky (but maybe not Beckie), deserve to be starters playing 60-80 minutes. It just doesn't make sense to have any of those players sitting on the bench for most of the game, same goes for Fleming. Maybe there is another move coming? That would at least make sense.
It’s a fair question, but Fleming is a CLEARLY better player than all of them possibly excepting Hina on her day. I know we love Moultrie and her flashes, but she hasn’t shown herself to be a full-time starter yet. Rocky’s really good, but not irreplaceable. Flemimg’s also spent some time as an inverted winger, so I wouldn’t be shocked to see her there. Bottom line, when you have the chance to sign Jessie Fleming, you do it. Moreover, there’s plenty of time out there- The same players don’t start every game, so as I mentioned, I think she’ll get different players’ minutes depending on the week.
I think my bigger concern is the money spent would indicate they don’t have a big RB replacement in mind. I didn’t think they did anyhow so this doesn’t really change my feeling on it, but it’s still something they need to address. If they can pull in a Christen Westphal type to play RB, I’ll be feeling really good.
I'll take your word for it. I just want to see Moultrie play more to develop and I hate seeing Hina on the bench. Rocky is a bulldog but on the wrong side of 30 now and typically gets subbed out around 60-70, so that's fine. Condensed schedules with 3 games in a week will be clutch having depth.
One of my biggest concerns is we lacked depth across the board. I brought up that we’d likely be depending on Sinc more with Rocky moving into the starting lineup. This brings a predictable rotation with Moultrie and Rodriguez with the other subbing if there are any nagging injuries
Is Westphal herself still available? I think I remember her signing somewhere. But if we could get a CW type that would be great!
No, Westphal signed to remain in SD.
And, Westphal was truly free money. Formerly a very high draft pick (#3, was it?) and we pilfered her from Seattle for like a 3rd or 4th round pick.
I'm not yet sold on her being in-prime. She had a very good year two years ago, not last year and not this year. She's 25, so there's plenty of time for her to go up.
But I've already heard she's a "tremendous upgrade" over Dunn. Look back to who Crystal was at 25, not 30 and raising a pre-toddler without her partner present, and say that.
Now, I happen to be of the mind that it's time for us to stockpile quality. Take a look around the league and what's happening internationally. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, and let's keep our expectations in perspective.
I don’t think she’s a tremendous upgrade over Dunn. I truly don’t know where the idea that Crystal wasn’t good here last year came from lol
She’s a Dunn replacement. Stockpiling quality is exactly the way to look at. You get the good players and figure it out.
I like exchanging a 31 year old for a 25 year old, though.
Also can get on board with stockpiling talent and figure out the roster later. Just hope that RB gets a quality replacement for Kuikka. Not sure if this move in any way hampers that effort (I don't know enough about transfer fees, salary cap, etc. to know).
Yeah, im definitely not saying this fixes the sins of the past and we can’t ignore the gaping hole at RB.....but if you told me the Bhathals were going to spend $300K on a Chelsea player less than a month into the job even yesterday, I wouldn’t have believed you. I want my team to make me happy and this makes me very happy.
I used poor wording. Over the course of the next three years, she’s likely a better fit than Dunn and younger. Crystal is still a great player.
That said, of the players with ties that would want to come here, she’s among the top 5 in terms of appeal. Macario, Fleming, Castellanos, Fishel, and Bunny Shaw have been the ones I’ve primarily looked at,
We tactically may choose to run a more centralized system with Sugita, but can we not pretend she wasn’t super productive last year.
Rocky is a viable starter. Having to better figure out how to utilize her is going to be key,
She’s definitely better than Castellanos, and she’s about to be Bay’s marquee signing. So that’s good.
It’s also a sign that the new ownership group won’t be “stagnant” and Karina actually has a plan (which I was frankly concerned about). Losing Dunn was a horrendous loss and there wasn’t a player on the market that I thought was going to be a viable replacement, so it was hoping for the best with a talented team,
Karina has been working on this for years. When Fleming was visiting here, I refused to get my hopes up. When she said she was always trying to sign her, I frankly thought she was delusional. I’m giving her kudos for executing a plan and hoping this is a sign for Sophia to sign her long term
I would say this is more of a "play" than a "plan"... Shows that's ownership is willing to spend but says nothing about Karina having an actual vision.
See below. We’ve done this “signs objectively good player(s), ends up with problems instead of solutions”.
I’m not saying this is one! Fleming is a fine player and a good signing! Just not seeing how Norris uses her without losing effectiveness from other players…and I’m not familiar enough with Fleming to suss out if she’s THAT good to be worth those adjustments.
Is she?
Jessie Fleming has been one of favorite players in the whole world since she was at UCLA, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but....she’s:
1. Extremely versatile. She can play as a deep lying 8, a 10, or an inverted winger.
2. Young, and probably hasn’t hit her ceiling yet.
3. Universally adored wherever she plays.
4. Really good in possession and an excellent passer.
5. Much more of a Rocky-style bulldog than people think. Look up her FBREF profile.
Obviously this could fail --as could all signings-- if that’s the lens we’re using, I’m not sure what we’re actually doing here. She’s a Dunn replacement. Unless Norris plays Sinc a ton, there are plenty of midfield minutes to go around.
So...yeah I think she’s good enough for a minor minute crunch to be very worth it. It’s also worth praising the Bhathals for literally breaking the NWSL transfer record weeks into their tenure given all the concern about inaction.
I have pretty much only seen her on Team Canada and the one thing that stood out to me is that she is a bulldog haha. Could have sworn I've seen her playing back toward the 18 area, but maybe that was just the game situation or something.
She seems like the kind of player you hate to play against but love to have on your team. Like Chara on the Timbers.
Haha that’s makes sense, she’s much more of an engine on Canada than a flair player. I think people who don’t watch a lot of her tend to believe she’s a finesse #10, but that’s not her game at all. It’s also why I think Rocky might be the one to lose some minutes (or that’s what I’d do if I was Norris, lord knows how he’ll handle it).
Yeah, that would make sense from the position and the player she would replace as a starter or be subbed on for. Rocky has looked really fit lately (trimmer than she used to be if my eyes don't deceive me), but she seems to start to tire out at 60 or so.
FBRef comps Fleming differently tho, for whatever that's worth. She's comped with everything from Marta to Michelle Cooper, but not with Rocky.
Probably because she plays further up the field most of the time for both club and country. Fwiw, I do expect Norris to play her in a more attacking role, but I personally would try her at the 8 if I was making the lineup decisions because I think her game is actually pretty well-suited to it.
(also those fbref comps are....all over the place lol)
That's good to know! I don't see enough FAWSL to have a real feel for what she brings other than "good AM/WF".
Agree that "signing good players" is always a net positive.
I think we need to wait and see how Norris sets this group up (well, and sign a fucking RB - let's not do "Beckie as RB" given her defensive chops...). If he's got that plan? This could get good...
Part of me wonders if they are contemplating any of the draft picks to convert to RB. Linnehan actually had good defensive capabilities and is pretty adept at possession. She’s a bad long passer when her feet aren’t set, but that’s a specific skill and would be minimized if she were used like Kuikka. I would prefer her up, but we’ve seen it recently with Nighswonger which no one would have guessed or even McEwen at CB.
Its going to be an interesting training camp to see how Norris deals with his new players
The logical conversion is Obaze. She's 21 , has played RB professionally for years before going to Rosengard and playing CB. But, my understanding is that Obaze was brought here to play CB, so who knows?
And, frankly, we need Obaze at CB. Hubly had a poor season and Brunn has a recent history of injury which, at her age, is worrisome. Nally is below replacement-level.
Shifting Obaze wide trades one problem for another.
Yes. The big concern for me is that Norris won’t handle the minutes distribution correctly, or identify where each player is best. I’m less concerned about each player getting raw minutes and more worried about who they play with and where those minutes are played.
That’s kind of the drum I’ve been beating for a while now: the 2023 squad had a ton of talent but Norris couldn’t find ways to use it to make a consistently dangerous team.
So I’m happy to see big signings (and hoping that it means there’s a plan for RB that isn’t “move Beckie or Obaze there or hope to hell the NRI works out”) and hoping there’s a brilliant tactical strategy for all this.
We definitely seem to be less than the sum of our parts under Norris.
Holy guacamole! Jessie Fleming to Portland!!!!
https://x.com/womenstransfer/status/1749762363266367944?s=46&t=Xqcn-ILJiYl3NWCnoazg7A
Wowza! This isn't a spoof account, is it? I mean, she's Canadian, so in that sense it's totally believable.
Am I dreaming, or has she not played full or wing back?
Wow, this is nice but what a massive FU to Moultrie, lol!
Lordy, I can walk again, it's a miracle!
If I can't have a Rose, I'll gladly accept a Jessie. Now then, who's coaching?
How are we +/- on our Canadian allotment?
Please, please, please!!! Let this be true....
If Tom Garry is reporting it, it’s a done deal.
Also being formally reported at the athletic
https://theathletic.com/5221332/2024/01/23/jessie-fleming-portland-thorns-transfer-chelsea/?source=user_shared_article
OK. That’s a hell of a get and a tremendous upgrade from Dunn. It’s been doom and gloom. Karina probably deserves a capo.
I think the transfer fee aligns with the Horan transfer. Talk about playing the long game.
Is it a tremendous upgrade?
She's definitely younger, but she hasn't been great at Chelsea for two years and this past year was averaging just 40 minutes a match (but perhaps that's because this was already in the works).
https://fbref.com/en/players/e47d2297/Jessie-Fleming
https://fbref.com/en/players/a20c6459/Crystal-Dunn
And, Karina has still made some egregious gaffes.
That’s fair. At 25, I still take Fleming any day of the week. Time will tell, but this looks like a tremendous get for both the Thorns and the NWSL. It also appears to be a good long game played by Karina.
It frankly makes the Kuikka and Dunn items look like choices to secure the funds necessary as opposed to a gaffe. Maybe that isn’t true, but it looks like that way.
Yeah, I agree it looks like Karina had a figure in mind that it would make sense to bring back Kuikka and wasn't going to go above it or negotiate against herself because she needed funds for Fleming.
The last genuinely good season Sinclair put in here was 2018, when she, Heath, and Horan scored 80% of the club’s goals. Since then her form has been slowly declining as her mobility does, to the point where she’s been ineffective most of her minutes over the past two seasons.
She really should have retired after the ‘21 season. In the small roster NWSL she can no longer create enough value to be worth the spot.
Let’s build the statue, and move on.
I tend to parallel your thinking. My biggest fear (as with all legend athletes) is she will make it harder and harder to remember the great days. When you stick around until you are old and average (or worse) the fans sour.
If she plays more than she should this year, at the expense of someone like Olivia Moultrie, I’m going to be really resentful. Perhaps in part because my first season was late ‘17 so I don’t really remember the superstar Sinclair days.
That’s kind of the hill I’m gonna die on; Sinc can’t take significant minutes from Moultrie (or Sugita or Rodriguez, for that matter) or I’m immediately on the #Norrisout train.
There's no "reason" for her to do so any longer. There's no international competition to train for.
Sugita, Moultrie, and Rodriguez all deserve to start. We played Sugita up because Dunn deserved to start over Rodriguez, but my assumption is Sugita is playing the same position she did last year
In the last handful of games, Sugita was playing more centrally, which I think is a better role for her. With Dunn gone, I'm really hoping that sticks. Sugita is potentially (and probably actually) our best central playmaker.
If our sport had a “DH” sort of position where she could still do the things she can do - and there ARE things she still does - that’d be ideal.
She had a burst of rejuvenation in the Fall Series - she was terrific. But it was like when Ichiro got a little jolt of rejuvenation when he went to the Yankees, and then again to the Marlins. It's just the last bits of magic getting squeezed out. I'd love to see Sinc go out on a run like Pujols did, not in mid-season ignominy like so many do.
Truly unacceptable how excited I am *just* about bringing Becky back. Where oh where have this club's expectations gone lmao
If I’m going to be candid, Becky was the #1 player we needed to resign this offseason. She brings stability to the backline and is an incredible leader.
With Rocky Rodriguez as the player getting into the starting lineup with Dunn leaving, it helps handle the loss. She’s a starting player in this league and needs to be in the lineup. She’s not the two way menace that Dunn was, but she’s also a lot more physical.
If we resign Kuikka, I’m not as upset. I just hate losing a player who’s challenged for all IX and frankly gave us two physical, athletic fullbacks.
Definitely. It's just that we should never have even been worried about it lol
(and it still could be Charley instead, fwiw)
Charley is heading to Orlando.
Would be interesting if it was both. Powell’s for Becky and I’m back for Charley, but i think tomorrow morning is Becky’s time
If I'm being candid, I'm nervous about a 39-year-old coming off major knee and foot injuries in successive years. I love Becky, but I'm preparing myself to see a tandem of Hubly and Obaze a lot this season playing in front of a goalie who may or may not be up to snuff. We also need to somehow adequately replace Kuikka, which seems unlikely.
The Hogan situation, IMO, is going to be a blessing in disguise. I believe she has the potential to be one of the best goaltenders in the league. Her athleticism seems like a clear upgrade
Don't get me wrong, I like Hogan. A lot. I'm a former keeper and I like what I've seen from her. But the goalie position can sometimes be voodoo and you never know who is going to end up being a long-term stud or a flash-in-the-pan. There is a mental aspect to the position unlike any other position, and you never know how goalies respond to struggling until they do. I think we've seen Bixby struggle with the mental aspect of the position. Regardless, I'm really glad we have her, I just wish we had an established veteran to back her up in case things go south.
I get that keepers can be volatile, but on a gut level as a fan watching, I was much less nervous when Hogan was back there. She seems cool. confident and not hesitant to come out to snuff out threats before they start. And I dunno if that PK performance at the WICC was a fluke, but if not, holy cow, that's a great asset...
A lot of change this offseason: Kuikka, Menges, Dunn, Rocky, Vasconcelos, and Betfort gone, and Bixby out for the season. That's not insignificant.
Kuikka - ?????
Dunn - Fleming
Rocky - Wade-Katoa
Betfort - Linnehan
Vascanuelos - Beckie
Bixby - Kozal or Asman
I'd say it's more:
Kuikka - ????? (Reyes)
Dunn - Moultrie
Rocky - Fleming
Betfort - Izzy
Vasconcelos - Beckie/Linnehan
Menges- Obaze
Bixby - Hogan
Considering we brought back Sinc, Becky, and Kling, the roster is getting MUCH younger.
I was just thinking in terms of straight replacements
Rocky was a depth midfielder last year and Dunn was a starter
Betfort/Vascanuelos depth forwards and I assume that Linnehan/Beckie are direct replacements
Ultimately, I think others who were here will fight for slots
Starting to feel a bit 2017-esque! Kassouf observes in his piece (below) that the Thorns tend to do things in cycles, not gradual changes. This would certainly fit that theory quite well, especially if they're not done yet.
Ok, now if KK can flex her loonies again for one Jayde Riviere (a young Canadian RB currently at ManU), I will, indeed, shut up for a long time.
Liked her in her appearances for the CWNT, so go KK you ‘oser!
I loved her at Michigan. She’d be a great get. Thinking her or Gabbe Carle (Washington Spirit), but Riviere just signed a 3 year deal
Love for her to be a consideration for the future here!
Agree with you and she might be a future consideration, but she just signed a 3 year contract
The hell with that. Go get us Buchanan and Lawrence.
So, JFlem huh?! I mean, it’s damn good quality to add to the roster absolutely, but I remain pessimistic that KK has no network beyond Canadians, who she has to pay too much for. Is the record transfer/Horan money a good spend here for a position we’re deepest in? Regardless, I like her as a person and she’s one of Canada’s better players so hell yuh to that!
I read from a few folks that when Jessie did play with Chelsea, she looked best on the wing? Anyone confirm? To me that kinda seems like her and Hina are interchangeable and one could play in a midfield 4 with Coffey, Rocky, Moultrie with Hina out wide, or, Coffey, Rocky, Moutrie, and Hina with Jessie out wide. Both would play more inverted forwards who interchange in the midfield…and worhh by our stockpiling of starting quality midfielders, it seems that’s most likely.
I think with this, our M/F line is covered, done. But I look at our back line still and hope to god there’s still one more signing coming besides Becky. I will pass out if we line up with Beckie at RB. Those are my initial morning thoughts…but gonna chew on it all some more.
I imagine the Becky news comes soon if they’re starting preseason today and wanna have content made.
I also think she has ties to the DK league, but that's driven by I believe that's more because she's leveraging her ties to Moscato and her time there. Ultimately, a deep network offers flexibility and I don't disagree with you. I think that was shown by last year's assistant choices, though I wonder if that was more driven by concern about long term stability. She did hire Lowdon this year.
I will suggest that Ashley Sanchez was acquired for the 5th pick and $150k. This seems inline with that. Sanchez is safer, but I would argue that Fleming was a more prominent player in college. Ideally, we would have signed Ashley Lawrence but the player has to come here.
Lots of options. Fleming or Sugita at the wing are pretty viable options. Trades are always possible as well.
When you can acquire a player of Fleming's quality, you do it. Period.
Oh she absolutely has no connections aside from Canadians, and oddly, Danes. Even removing the unforced errors from her CV, her main issue is that she's still completely green....and that's not even necessarily her fault. It'll take time to get those connections, but it is possible. I still very much want her gone....but I'm also open to the possibility for improvement.
Chelsea didn't use Fleming well at all after her first season or two- Prioritizing her best position wasn't a priority with the talent they had/have, so she did get a lot of minutes on the wing and looked fine. I'd still imagine she gets to play in midfield either as a 10 or 8, but she's more than capable of playing out wide too. I agree that it would be cool to see some version of a 4-2-2-2 with all four of Sam, Fleming, Hina, and Moultrie on the field with Rocky able to replace either Fleming or Moultrie. I've said this elsewhere, but "the position we're deepest in" is still very shallow and doesn't take into account Fleming's ability to play three different positions very well. I also subscribe to the notion that you should spend your big money along the spine of your team, and this certainly qualifies.
Still need a RB, but this is really nice indicator of ambition, if nothing else. Breaking the NWSL transfer record ain't something to scoff at. All I need to think of is how different I feel about the direction and intent of the Thorns when I went to bed last night vs. when I woke up this morning.
ALSO: Jessie Fleming is beloved by everybody. About as perfect a culture fit as you could want.
If nothing else, our midfield is not going to be mid.
...as the kids say.
Curious on how they are going to use that money from the Rodriguez transfer fee. That’s a good move by ACFC
I will say that the two moves today atleast give me the perception that things are in motion and there is a plan.
Any ideas for potential FB’s?
Wonder if this was opportunism on ACFC's part or if they let McCaskill walk because they were interested in landing Rocky.
My guess is it was opportunism. They made their big move for this year earlier by breaking every Portland fans heart. Now two of my favorite midfielders are going to be playing for Air Pollution Central FC
Ever notice how their kits look like an LA sunset? Pink and dingy grey.
They train in Thousand Oaks. I used to tease my friends who lived there that when I drove up a hill, the temperature went up 30 degrees during the summer. I used to mock that during my commute and wondered why anybody would live in the Valley
They’ve done next to nothing aside from bringing in two teens and losing Camberos, Weatherholt, Charley, and McKaskill, so this is their first real move of the offseason. I know their fans were getting a tad restless.
Let's not forget Ertz, and the real likelihood that Press never plays again too.
If Paulson was still running the team, I would expect him to call her to endear himself to the fan base further
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaelene_Daniels
It’s nice not being an after thought in player acquisition.
That’s all
Serious question; anyone else get a sort of “Foord/AMC/Andressinha” feel from the Fleming signing? I’m perfectly willing to say it’s probably me, but still wondering.
I mean, there’s definite quality there but there also doesn’t seem to be an immediate hole to put her in, or a tactical vision she’s a critical piece of. To start her seems to require some real juggling, much of which is kind of a headscratcher.
She’s a fine player, so my initial reaction is “there’s gotta be a cunning plan for her and I’m just a dummy because I’m not instantly seeing it”.
I'm going to wait on some results. I was dead wrong about Hina's ability to thrive here.
I'm just not ready to proclaim Fleming as an improvement on Dunn or a great use of the transfer fee received for Horan.
She's someone, like Beckie and Leon, who has lost minutes at her WSL club and needed a place to train for international competition. Fleming's a better get than those two and has higher upside, but she's gotta get to that place for us.
She's had one very good club season and Champions League thus far, but three others that have been not all that special.
That’s why I’m puzzled; Fleming seems like a good piece…but WHERE?
This goes back to my biggest concern, which is how all these players get assembled into a big hammer. If Norris has a great plan for that? I’m a happy boy.
I remember having the same discussions about Sophia Smith and Morgan Weaver when they were acquired. You bring quality in and your coach is either good enough to manage it or you find one that is,
And Norris muled hell out of Smith last season, to the point where smarter coaches like Amoros figured out how to take her out of the match, and struggled to use Weaver in ways that maximized her pace and aggression and minimized her finishing/first touch issues.
But Norris is still here.
Hopefully the new owners have set things up - whether with Lowdon or something else - to pull the trigger quickly if all we get is clumps of brutal Norrisball this coming season.
A piece on Raj Bhathal's enthusiasm for the kids buying the Thorns
https://www.latimes.com/sports/soccer/story/2024-01-23/portland-thorns-brother-sister-owners-nwsl
It was a nice read. Seems like they are willing to spend to make money, which is good.
If this is about another run of printing Sinclair's book I'm going to be SO MAD https://www.instagram.com/p/C2bdwhTrdqL/?fbclid=IwAR2EJnQeysYbfiUpSeV8pd9G8rPMUv1Rr7jGU-LE6FofUa-uUuj85-SeiHo
Can you imagine lmfao
At that point I might cancel my season ticket.
Ugh.
Get the absolute fucking hell out of here... Oh. My. God. You just fucking killed me. I can't even. I would be SO. FUCKING. PISSED. OFF!
(Really, tho, XOXO... Don't actually hate you)
Lol, I literally just told my cat that she might regret the fact that we live in a wooden house because her mom and I are burning this fucker down if it's an announcement of a second printing of Sinc's book...
To recap:
We all love Sinc dearly.
Not one of us wants to see her back here in 2025, no matter what kind of season she has in 2024.
2025? I didn't want to see her back in 2023!