My quick take is that this was a season where a great group of attacking players occasionally disguised a lack of a plan at the coaching level. I wouldn’t say the non-offensive players were uniformly bad, there just wasn’t a realistic plan for how they were going to defend or manage the midfield, or at least the players didn’t play as if there was such a plan. On offense things worked until they didn’t, that is until people figured us out. But since the attacking players were more or less just winging it, the coaching staff didn’t have an attacking plan b, except to maybe throw Anthony in there. And then Vancouver looked at the tape, made a plan, and crushed us systematically.
The saddest thing, and the most damning thing, is that the plan Vancouver put together probably took all of about 30 seconds to build. It's super easy; stop the supply to the three dangerous scorers however you can, and it's game over. That's it, that's the plan. And that's what Vancouver did.
They denied any Timber meaningful time on the ball, they forced Jonathan to essentially play a deeper midfield role for most of the first half at least, which we could see on his face was frustrating the hell out of him and probably led to a lot of those runs to nowhere, as he was trying to force a lot of things to happen, and not at all successfully.
In the words of Wilson Pickett (watch that video of him in Africa, it will help) Don’t let the green grass fool you.
I don’t think I’ll get a ton of amens here. But I’d kind of like to see what Gio might have done with this attacking talent. He needed more offensive talent and had to settle on a pragmatic and boring as hell approach. He had Evander in his acclimation year and without Mora and Rodriguez. We were going pretty good with healthy Fernandez.
At the same time it was fun but clearly not satisfying seeing Phil’s damn it all approach to getting forward. And it was, sorry Wilson, time for Gio to move on.
Maybe the better argument is I’d like to see what a half-decent coach could have done here. Not sure Phil is that guy.
yeah, I'm not sure Gio would be the answer, because I don't think Gio's offensive approach was all that proactive (although with a healthy Mora and maybe a Jonathan that may have changed), but I definitely would like to see what a coach with a plan could have done with this group. I'm still not impressed with Phil, but I'm also not surprised by Phil. This is who he is, and this is what we're stuck with for at least another season.
Gio is 300 time the coach neville is. Gio never had Rodriguez, Mora and Evander in full form together, so many injuries... better results, better defense.... some degree of trophies, a final....
Gio had a full strength Mora with Valeri and a still-healthy Blanco in 2021, so let's not pretend that injuries were Gio's only hindrance later in his tenure as coach.
Wait, you are not comparing Valeri at the end of his career and semi-healthy Blanco with Evander-Rodriguez-Mora, are you? Not even close. But yes, Gio at some point had a good team and when he did he won a tournament and reached a final. Although, I agree, by no means it was just injuries. I think not just Gio, any other cable coach would do a lot better with our current roster.
lmao you think J-rod is some game changer on their level? Sure Evander has talent but he doesn't bleed for the team and put them on his back the way Blanco could, not in a million years. Plus it was a different era, comparing the league then to now it is definitely a comparison and it's not even close!
Not a direct comp, no, but my point is that Gio wasn't exactly hobbled by a lack of talent while he was coaching the Timbers, and at the end of his time in Portland, he couldn't coax decent performances out of even a mostly healthy roster.
I don't want to relitigate Gio's necessary exit; all I'm saying is that moving forward was the right call, and at this point to look back and say "Gio could have done better" is both wishcasting and also kind of obvious, because literally anyone not named Phil Neville could have done better with this lineup, I think.
Letting Gio go was the right move; hiring Phil was the wrong one. But here we are, and here we're stuck for at least another season.
Yeah, I was definitely ready to move on from Gio, and didn't want to reload and try again with him. I just wanted - and want - the FO to think bigger than Phil.
I am a 100% Gio-stan, so you'll get no back talk from me. Good MLS coach, good guy, good results in years when the team wasn't riddled by injury and various unspecified front office drama.
I haven't been part of this forum for a long time but feel the necessity to express my anger towards Neville.
1. His post match interviews, always poking his nose, not looking at the camera and throwing his players under the bus. I have never in my life seen a coach doing this. Saying his take responsibility but in fact then saying only one players made an effort. It is true many players did not have a good game, but effort? You are blaming a legend, Diego Chara, on perhaps his last game as a Timber on effort? This is so disrespectful towards all involved
2, He in fact got outcoached. Surprise surprise. Rodriguez isolated all night and he throwing his long balls at him because we had no midfield.
3. Not able to fix the defense all year even through he brought his own central defender
4. Imposing his style on a bunch of South American players....
He needs to go, and the guy who hired him needs to go as well
Last night was the first time I have heard Phil say "I take full responsibility" all season. He usually just swipes at his players and their mentality. I don't give him credit for finally saying this; it's more like where the hell has it been all season? it's never been solely down to the players, and it's rarely if ever down to "mentality".
His words are always empty, and as I say, I don't credit him for saying those particular words last night. They don't mean anything after a whole season of him saying "blah blah blah mentality blah blah blah" or whatever.
It wasn’t a good year, but it was a fun year in my opinion. Or at least interesting when not fun. Until these last few weeks and last night’s exclamation point.
Hard to think there wasn’t some sort of Borchers or Jewsbury to add at some point. If Evander isn’t back it’ll be hard to rally up enthusiasm. Hopefully we can hold on to the little bit of progress we’ve made since Gio left.
"Under a chorus of boos, the Timbers went into the locker room facing the worst halftime deficit they had seen the entire season."
It should be noted that that chorus of boos was aimed squarely at Phil Neville, who it should also be noted jogged very quickly off the pitch, ahead of all his players. When the players came to the tunnel, there was no booing. There wasn't a thunderous ovation, but there was half-hearted applause.
The problems last night were symptomatic of the problems that have plagued the Timbers for 3 seasons. The recruitment of players has led to a squad that doesn't have a cohesive game model.
We rely on attacking players going on a streak of form, however when that streak breaks down then there is no plan B.
If the last 3 years are anything to go by, then we'll see little happen in the off-season - a few outs here and there and then we'll hit March and have a rough spring, a resurgent summer with a new attacking player signed in May.
One of the things I wonder about most strongly is which of the two really good GK's we have in house right now is gonna leave? The one who sat on the bench most of the season behind the supposed clear #1, or the supposed clear #1 who was benched for no obvious reason for the last three games of the season including a playoff game, which is where he's supposed to be at his best?
To be clear: I like them both and either way it goes, the Timbers will be OK (unless they both bail out of frustration). I just think that GK is one of the situations that Phil hasn't handled at all well this season, and it's going to cost the Timbers a really good player either way it shakes out.
Folks argued all season that it was a good problem to have - two good goal keepers. And it is, unless the understudy plays well over a significant stretch and causes questions to be raised when the no. 1's numbers are not good. I think Pantemis earned the right to start Wednesday. What would any coach do? If a player is hot, you go with the hot player, or do you ride and die with the other guy who, like I said, his numbers were not good? Other factors are how the locker room takes it. Does it unsettle the squad to go with Pantemis? (It didn't seem to against Seattle) Sadly, the result did not go in his favor. The defense definitely let him down, and to be fair, I am reappraising Crepeau, who I often blamed. Who is better? I still lean Pantemis, and I think the team will get some interest from him from around the league. I guess you could shop both and see what you can get and go with the best offer. Having both on the team next year will be a distraction. Personally, I think Pantemis deserves a payday after this season.
I mean, it is a good problem to have - and like you, I am also kinda taking another look at Crepeau. He definitely took a step back from his LAFC form. Whether that's down to a post-really-bad-injury "he'll never be the same" sort of thing, who knows, and he's still quite good, for sure; he just wasn't AS good as he was with LAFC.
But I also am not one who thinks a goalkeeper is 100% responsible for a team's - or a defense's - results. Like, Wednesday, Pantemis was hung out to dry for probably all five of the goals (I can't really bring myself to rewatch yet), so none were solely "his fault" as such. I'm not sure Crepeau would have done any better - particularly on the chip, which was out of Pantemis' reach, and Pantemis has a height advantage over Crepeau.
It is going to be an interesting off season, for sure.
I was a goalkeeper in high school and college and have always considered myself a keen observer of goalkeeper play. To me the best keepers have always been those who 1) Take positioning seriously 2) Have unreal reaction times 3) Yell at their defenders frequently.
I think Pantemis is better at #1, Crépeau has the advantage on #2, but neither one is particularly strong on #3. The lack of communication between defenders, and between the defenders and the keeper, has been obvious for a few years now, and it reared it's ugly head in full force on Wednesday night. You really need either a strong-mouthed keeper or a defender to keep things in order on the back line, and we haven't had either for awhile now.
I disagree with your assessment on number two. Pantemis gets down quicker and shoots off his line quicker. And the numbers back it up as does the eye test. The difference is crepeau gets beat low and oantemis gets beat maybe more mid range
So I'm not on social media and also this cursed platform doesn't allow for posting of screenshots/images, but for those who are on social media, Evander took an absolute blowtorch to the front office last night.
Ok. Unpopular opinion coming. In the last game of the season, the team didn’t show up. Not the defense and certainly not the offense. Our three top goal scorers have been MIA for the last 4 games or more. It could be coincidence, or a bad vibe in the locker room. It’s very conceivable players have a beef with Neville for some reason and it’s very likely Neville just isn’t that great a coach. But here’s the thing, a beef with the front office should not dictate whether a professional athlete decides to compete on the pitch in the last match. Did Vancouver have a plan to deal with our offensive threats? Sure. Was Neville out coached? Probably. But that’s happened many times this season and it’s not resulted in a 5 nil blowout. The players on the pitch have some responsibility here. Pointing to mystery grievances with the front office as the excuse for not bringing it in the final match is really weak sauce, in my opinion. If Evander is unhappy here, he needs to ask for a trade. I hope his beefs with whomever in the front office aren’t leading to a poisonous atmosphere in the locker room. Again, I’m not saying folks grievances with Neville, Paulson and Grabavoy aren’t founded. I’m saying there’s a time and place to make that point. The last match on the home pitch isn’t it.
Oh, I 100% agree that the team didn't show up. I also agree that the team shoulders some blame. because they needed to be ready to play. My theory is not that the team acted like petulant children on Wednesday and decided not to play because of some grudges.
But! it's also not hard to see how, after a long season of dealing with a bunch of shit that is a constant source of frustration, a player could easily just be like 'you know what, I'm not gonna'. And it's also not hard to see how that could snowball when it's 2-0 early. I'm not saying it's done on purpose; it's just...have you ever had a bad, super-bad, really frustrating day at work after a long stretch of frustrating days? They may not have done it on purpose, but it's kinda easy to see how that situation can develop.
And there's where your "Was Neville out coached?" thing comes in to play. If Neville was a coach with a plan, no matter how badly things were going on the pitch, there'd be a game plan, a "coach said to do THIS, so I'm gonna do THIS and we'll see if that can dig us out of this mess". There's no real evidence, over the course of this season, that Neville has done that. So the players are left to their own devices to try to mentality their way out of things, and if their mentality isn't good, for whatever reason, well, you get Wednesday night.
"I hope his beefs with whomever in the front office aren’t leading to a poisonous atmosphere in the locker room"
From what I'm seeing yesterday, it's not just Evander; he's just the one who's seemingly giving voice to what a lot of Timbers have been feeling for a long time. And for what it's worth, Evander stepped up and took the blame for the loss yesterday in the midst of his beef, so he's not just dropping bombs and not looking back.
I think it was just a fool hardy plan of pressing and bombing forward when a more conservative approach would have been in order, like up in Seattle. Let the game slow down and allow your team to build or counter. When they tried to press and Vancouver slipped through a few times, and were allowed to get some early balls in, we had trouble defending. I doubt Vancouver would have been too threatening had we had more guys behind the ball. Phil went for it, like he usually does, but in the playoffs, teams are primed and don't allow comebacks as easily as they do when they are in the middle of a season and there's a lot of rotation, etc. Vancouver hadn't played real well up until this point, but they were missing a boatload of guys in the few weeks prior to the match. I don't have an issue with Ned; I have more of an issue with Phil and have little faith that he is going to outcoach teams or have his team better prepared.
His first tweet was "First, I want to apologize to all the fans who, on a Wednesday night, dropped everything to support us. It’s really hard to lose the way we did. The truth is, losing is not in our plans, but we have to deal with it." Which is fairly standard disappointed-athlete stuff. Then he turned both barrels on the FO:
"Portland fans do not deserve the people who have power over this club. People who say they are men but do not keep their word. People who are only there when the team wins. Unfortunately, these are things we have no control over"
"What happens off the field reflects on the field"
Well damn. More than enough track record to take Evander at his word here. I’m guessing it’s roster help and hoping it isn’t something worse he’s referring to off the field.
FO isn’t smart or, at least at the top, very decent.
Yeah, saw those quotes. But, what do they mean? Who is Evander talking about? What men did not keep what word? How did that contribute to an embarrassing effort on the pitch?
Combine what Evander said with Neville saying, “But I also have seen signs over the last three or four weeks of one or two players — maybe more than one or two — just quitting on each other, quitting on the team, quitting on the club", and it seems we may have major rift between some players (Evander?) and the coach.
That's just it - we don't know. We may never know. But there is clearly a lot of dysfunction behind the scenes, and I think it's reasonable to assume that that dysfunction starts at the top. MP's "step back" may mean that he literally does not give a shit what happens at "his" team any more, and he just lets things fester and rot and never bothers to solve problems or intervene, or it may mean that he's still letting toxic people do toxic things.
We don't know, but it's clearly still a mess and the house still clearly needs to be cleaned.
Merritt’s step away ended when he became the face of the Neville hire. I believe his hands are still all over everything. At least he spent this year. But doofus isn’t very good at this.
The team has needed to be sold at least since the scandals broke about MP and the front office. New ownership doesn't doesn't automatically solve all problems (e.g. the Thorns) but it at least can provide a more solid foundation for improvement over time. I like MP when I met him a few years ago when he came to Bend to meet with our local supporters group. He was engaging and enthusiastic. He promised we'd have a grass field some day. Now, this mess is what we have and he's nowhere to be seen.
I'm glad Evander said it. The problems that have turned this team into a shell of it's former glory over the last 3 years are clearly off the field. The passion and energy that made this club so special have been badly drained, and how we've ended up with Phil Neville blaming everybody but himself for the shambles that the Timbers have become. And he's just the most obvious symptom of a club that's lost it's way.
As for last night's debacle that I fortunately couldn't attend, it wasn't the result that bothered me as much as the fact that the team didn't even seem like they cared about the game and never tried. I could name a few players that seemed completely checked-out from the opening whistle but the problems with this club right now run much deeper.
Evander stating what needed to be said is a very good start.
Neville has always blamed everybody but himself. He was a whiney little jerk when he coached the English women's national team (a job that he had no qualifications for and should never have held) and he's still the same here. I never liked the hire but tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. The whole coaching staff needs to go and Paulson needs to sell.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with Phil for at least another season, almost no matter what else happens - no way Ned's gonna admit defeat on that front after only one season. If next season starts as catastrophically as this season did, it might be reasonable to fire him, but as it sits now, he's not going anywhere. Nor is MP, annoyingly.
Yup. The thing that bugged me the most was that the Timbers were literally gifted a home game out of nowhere, handed a golden opportunity to advance in a playoff that by all rights they shouldn't even have been in, and they couldn't even be bothered to show up for the handout they were given. It's an embarrassment and they should all be pretty fucking disgusted with themselves today.
Last night was just the culmination of what we've seen brewing over the past four or five games. A lot of players have just seemed to be checked out. Maybe there are problems beyond Neville's continual reference to players needed to have the proper "mentality" to win as opposed to maybe a proper game plan?
It sounds like there absolutely are. We as outsiders will probably never know what those might be, but that whole "mentality" BS is a symptom of a clubhouse/front office that just isn't working.
Yeah, I'm not scapegoating Phil really - I was against the hire from day one, and nothing I've seen this season has changed my opinion of him. He is what he is. But this team's problems, as you say, are way bigger than a coach who lacks the people skills to get the best out of an underperforming group of, particularly, defenders.
And yeah, good on Evander for sure - also, how damning is it that a guy who has only been here that small amount of time sees that much cancer this quickly?
"Either way, it goes up to the top."
100%. I am also not quite sure that Ned is the problem - after all, Ned brought in Evander and Jonathan, and he has said that the team will have money to spend this winter. So the player acquisition part of the front office itself doesn't seem to be a problem? Maybe?
Which leaves the rest of the front office, i.e. MP and co. I have no idea what the front office does for a living, like, what working there entails every day, but it seems like it's still a fairly problematic place, and those problems won't stop until MP sells.
Paredes, Williamson, Loria, mcgraw (who i was high on) need to go. They are dead weight. These are players who have been here and you can count the number of above average games they had this year on one hand. There is zero accountability in this team. None of these players have proven they can be average or better mls players and all have peaked on the team. They need to go. Period. Because if it's between them and a young player that hasn't hit his peak, I am taking a young players. They could develop into superstars. They could not. We don't know but that's alot better than knowing what we got and it isn't good.
Roster: the defense
The entire defense besides surname needs to go.
K. Miller is literally just a younger mabiala. He has the athleticism of a lamppost. He isn't quick. Isn't goal dangerous. He isn't even close to the best cb on the team. (I would say surname and zuparic are better) k Miller is taking up a good chunk of salary especially for someone who was brought into the team based on Neville nepotism. The coach literally asked for him and he ended up being benched. How bad do have to be friends with the coach and lose your position.
Aurajo did better than the year before but when you are better than the year before and still on one of the worst defenses in the league. It says it all. He isn't good enough.
Zuparic I think is the best cb we have based on sample size but just like aurajo, you just put up one of the worst defensive performances in mls over the season. He has been here for years and we have missed the playoffs for the last 3. It's time for accountability. Goodbye.
Masquera and bravo. Both young players and I like giving young players chances on the off chance they become something special. But ffs bravo seriously has had to be one of the worst and most liable defenders over the last two years. Always out of position. Always fouling or making dumb decisions around the box.
Masquera. I don't like him. He had the athletic attributes to be a good player but ffs how many times have I watched him completely lose his mark. How many times have I seen the simplest 1, 2 between players completely take him out of a play.
These two guys are wingbacks but here is the thing. We don't play a system that benefits wingbacks. We need traditional fullbacks if we are going to play with a 4 man back line. Because neither one of these guys are good defenders. They are low IQ wingbacks. End of story. Which means they continually read the situation wrong and leave our defense out to dry. Why we never went to a 3 back system is beyond me.
In the end we need accountability and one of the worst defensive performances as a whole should say it's time to completely revamp the defense around surname and get some defense first fullbacks. what I mean by that is fullbacks that have excellent defensive numbers first, not offensive. Offense wins games but defense wins championships. As proven this year.
Roster: goalkeepers
I honestly think crepeau will go. I don't base it on a bad season. I think he will go because he had a really really good copa america. Most of the times when that happens in a major tournament, a lot of suitors come calling and so does the money. Pantemis showed he could be an excellent keeper. An above average keeper, and his performances should give our FO confidence in making a deal happen if some good offers come in for crepeau. And maybe that's why he didn't play the last 3 games. Maybe he is already "gone."
Roster: midfield and forwards
Ayala had a great year and I am glad he continues to improve. With all his injuries I didn't have faith in him. I thought it was a risk to count on him (two major injuries), chara (time will catch him) and Paredes (not consistent and below average) to run the midfield. But I am glad he stayed healthy. He had some really good games and some not so good but he is still young and has obviously not peaked.
Chara had his final good season last year. You see there is a rule. Every older player will have one last banger of a season before they leap off the mountain. Valeri did in 2018? (I think it was 2018. Maybe later) blanco also did the year before we resigned him but like clockwork you see a drop the very next season and then it goes down, down, and down. I think that is exactly where chara is.its not just the physical side. It's the mental side. Chara just made bad decisions all year round. Valeri and blanco did the same thing as they started to age out. So are we seeing the end of chara as a catalyst in the midfield. I think so. I think it's time to put him on the bench and find his replacements now...not tomorrow.
Our young guys Moreno and Antony. I really think Moreno took strides this year. Over the last two years you saw flashes of growth followed by inconsistency and bad performances. But this year it really looked like Moreno came into his own. Like you can start to see older players flame out with bad performances and irregular decisions. There is a point when you see maturity just click in and a player becomes a man within the game. No longer a boy. I really do feel like this was Morenos year. His confidence and decision making took a step forward and rather than playing alongside mora, Jonathan, Evander, it felt like he was becoming an integral part in that forward line. He had become a man playing with men in front of our eyes. Its the same jump i saw from chelsea pulisic to milan pulisic. His play syarted to mature. I really hope moreno can now continue to grow.
Antony reminds me of Moreno 2 seasons ago. Flashes of class and ability but man does he just make some of the dumbest decisions. Poor passes. Poor choices. Missed opportunities. Maybe it will come with time but I would say it wasn't the best season for him but I won't give up on him. He just needs to find that same moment of maturity and flip the switch. I feel like it's a couple seasons away though.
THE TRIUMVIRATE: Mora, Jonathan, Evander
I am gonna start with Evander. I got it wrong with him. I wasn't high on him. His lack of hustle. His lack of pace and power. Just the way he carried himself on the field really made me not think he was the right guy for this team. I didn't think we were gonna play the way I think we should with him. And we didn't, but he still brought us up to another level. He might not be the 10 I like and might not be able to play a high intensity, high press, quick movement all over the place, but no doubt his ability to read the game and his quality when on the ball is above 95% of all players in the league. He made a bad season enjoyable to watch. Even if results were infuriating. I had him wrong and I am glad I did.
Jonathan. I was glad we got him and unlike Evander I was right about him. Not that he was a first choice but because he was exactly what I thought he was. He is a veteran player with quality that we payed 5 million for. It wasn't a big investment and I still felt he had plenty to give. His 5 mil fee means we could potentially buy him down in a couple seasons if he starts to "age out" and spend on another dp without breaking the bank. I still believe he has 2 good seasons left in him before we start to see gradual decline.
Mora. Mora has to be comeback player of the year. He had a phenomenal season after two seasons of injuries. Especially at his age. When healthy he has been our best forward (maybe even when unhealthy. Niezgoda) but here is my concern. Are we gonna see the valeri, blanco, chara drop off? I'm just not confident that he will keep it up next year or even the year after and we are gonna end up riding out his mediocre years in hopes he catches form again. Like we did with valeri and blanco. Like we are now with chara. Now that could be a nihilistic approach. Maybe we get a couple solid year more from him, but I just don't know if it's a risk worth taking. We saw how bad our offense staggered over multiple seasons without a consistent striker threat. Jonathan hasn't been good as a striker, and toye had chances and came up with 0 goals 0 assists. So if mora does start to drop off or gets hurt, who do we have to be the guy? Maybe we start the season with mora but if mid-season hits and he isn't, I hope they pull the trigger and don't sit on there hands like they do every year.
Summary: off-season
Mora
Jonathan Evander Moreno
Ayala. ?
? Surname. ? ?
Pandemic
Bench:
Antony
Chara
Toye
K. Miller (nepo Neville guy)
This is really what I see as our best choices and who we should build the team around. Everyone else needs to go. Players who have hit there peak. Players who have been locker room issues in the past. Players who have been a part of 3 seasons of no post season run. You have to have players who not only challenge starters but can make a difference off the bench. We don't have it and the players we have especially on defense have proven year after year after year they just aren't good enough.
I've got similar thoughts, though it would make fewer changes. The area that simply needs the most attention is the defense, and it starts with Ridgewell. If he was really responsible for the defense he should be gone, no questions. I would blow up the defense, with the only possible exceptions of Bravo, Zuparic, and probably Surman. It is way too passive, and I don't know how possible it would be to change the whole mindset of the players who are here (and have been here for 2+ years). If you keep more than a couple of players they will revert to how they have been coached to play over the years. This is the area that needs to be addressed in the offseason.
I basically agree with everything you say here. K Miller could play LB at times, too. One guy you didn't mention is E Miller. I think he was a complete bargain and should get a pay raise. He's a solid pro. I think Paredes is good to have on the squad. He's a good squad guy. Of the dead weight, I'd keep him. I'm not as high on Moreno as you are, but he's gotten better. He loses the ball a lot, though. I think Rodriguez was fatigued and hampered by injury at the end of the year. Otherwise, he was slicing guys in the beginning and that was a solid pickup. Mora is not the guy to build around, though. We need a more dynamic forward, although, I think he was very good this year overall. He just faded, and it would've been nice to see Toye come off the bench, but his injury prevented that when we needed him most.
I watched as much of the presser as I could stomach. Ned and Phil both go HARD at Evander for his quotes.
They are self-righteous jackasses.
For one, if tearing into your club is so wrong and so bad, why is absolutely hammering an individual within it just? For another, Ned talks a real big game about culture but I have never, ever heard him take accountability for laughable failures in roster construction. A better man might at least acknowledge that contract talks and a baffling failure to do goddam anything about the shitty defense may have had some affect on Evander. Show some level of emotional maturity and accountability. I have never seen it from him. Not now and not when he came after fans for being a woke mob (blaming the victims of years of bullshit for a very natural response) after Phil was hired. If he is a token of the culture we’re trying to build, lord help us.
I am wildly disappointed in Ned’s work and his character. Phil’s manipulative bullshit about Evander being like a son to him as he also lit into him was also a piece of work. Last weekend was the black swan, as Phil always lays things on players’ failures. In fact maybe Evander was following their cultural lead.
I hope Evander walks and tells no one to ever come play here.
When players think they are doing a favor to their teammates while playing, is the worst thing that could happen. The body language says it all. There's clearly a major disconnection and selfishness in this team, and it is compounded by Neville's blatant ineptitude whose job is also to make sure there is cohesiveness and unselfishness in his team. It seems redundant to remind that under his direction Miami was (the worst team) last in 2022. I was never fun of Evander who, while an above average player - I am too old to have witnessed other great and not so great players - it deepened the disconnection on the front instead of improving it. He has this clear affinity with Antony, who is not always a reliable teammate. It would suck to be a member of this team. I struggle in understanding why Grabavoy - and whoever agreed with him - about bringing Neville (therefore K Miller), who were part of that terrible Miami team, and instead they are now enjoying of good - rather excellent and sound - business decisions. Good for Inter Miami for recognizing what the problem was. I never saw fans leaving en masse way before the final whistle. That was the saddest thing I've' witnessed in my long-term support of the Timbers (even before Paulson became the owner). Sad, really sad...
"Good for Inter Miami for recognizing what the problem was."
Literally the only reason they got rid of Neville was because Messi wanted Tata Martino to coach him again. They didn't fire Phil because he was bad, they fired him because he wasn't Tata Martino (and I don't say that as a defense of Phil Neville, it's just a fact). Miami's "sound business decisions" all revolve around Lionel Messi. That's not a replicable business model, and it'll be interesting to see how sound those decisions appear after 2025, when Messi retires, Suarez can't walk any more, and Inter Miami's 15 million Instagram followers all of a sudden vanish into thin air, leaving Miami right back where they were when Neville was their coach, but in a brand new stadium that nobody can afford tickets to.
So, anyone else remember when that team that shall not be named refunded season tickets holders with a credit for the next season after an embarrassing loss to LA? That was for a 4-0 regular season loss...
I do not want a refund. I hate that as a thing people think is a reasonable expectation. That's like going to Las Vegas and demanding a refund because you put $100 in a slot machine and didn't get it back.
I want the club I follow to be better at what it does, top to bottom. And I want them to be ruthless about it. There is no reason the Timbers can't be one of the elite teams in this league - not monetary, not fanbase size, not one. MP just doesn't give enough of a damn to want to. If they can't or won't do that, I want current ownership to sell to someone who wants to make the club better.
I have to disagree about refunds. I'm a paying customer and if the product I buy is defective I want my money back. Obviously, that's not going to happen here. Your Vegas reference makes sense unless you're there playing on machines that aren't functioning properly. This team isn't functioning properly.
But that's how sports works - there's never a guarantee that a team is gonna win, whether the team is "functioning properly" or not. The degree of losing is not great, but I don't go into paying for a sporting event with the attitude of "if this is a blowout, I am entitled to my money back". I got exactly what I paid for - a completed sporting event. It didn't go the way I wanted, but that's beside the point.
Bad losses in sports happen, even with well-functioning teams - the 2001 Mariners won 116 games, and the regular season game from that season that always sticks with me is a game against Cleveland that they lost after blowing a 12 run lead in the 7th inning. Not once after that game did I think "I WANT A REFUND", because, well, sometimes shit happens.
Sorry but that is ludicrous, bordering on Karen logic and entitlement.
How is a loss - something most adults know is a possibility in literally every sporting event - a defective product?
When you bought that ticket how were you purchasing anything other than admission to the game?
Can you show anywhere in any of the fine print that you're not just buying a ticket to a game but a result that you find acceptable? Since when are results guaranteed, ever?
If you can't handle a loss, don't go to soccer games.
If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you without being insulting, perhaps you should stay away from here.
I don’t actually want a refund. However, if I buy tickets to watch a team play I have a right to expect them to play as well as they can. Our club did not do that. They breached “the contract”. By the same token, I have no idea why anyone would but a ticket to see the Blazers tanking. But if I were to do so, I’d know ahead of time they weren’t going to try to win. That wasn’t the case with the last Timbers game. I actually thought they were going to try to win.
I didn't remember that and I'd probably settle for at least getting the $288 I wasted for our 4 tickets last night. Meanwhile, I'm in the midst of a payment plan to cover the several thousand for next year's tickets.
I'm sorry but you got some wild takes. You deserve a refund for buying tickets to a bad team. (Your choice) or 288 for the wildcard game (your choice) and then complain about a payment plan of several thousand dollars for next year. (Your choice) ffs this is the attitude I hate from certain types of people. Absolutely no responsibility for THEIR CHOICES. Your not a victim. You are your own problem. You don't want people to call you out then grow up and act like an adult.
Ah, so love poking people like you. No, I’m not a victim. I’m a pissed off customer. Trying to educate you about the difference would be a waste of time. Would you buy tickets if you knew ahead of time that the team’s star player was going to dog it? Yeah, sounds like someone like you would.
I don’t know how credible all this is. Obviously the instagram post happened. There’s an additional claim that Evander called out Grabavoy in front of the entire squad and coaches and Ned himself. Also claims an ongoing contract dispute that I was somehow unaware of. Among the weirdest things is that his post ended with ‘see you next year’ so hopefully that’s good.
- The club plans to use its open U22 slot on a young attacker (because we all looked at the 2024 Timbers and said "scoring was a problem", right?)
- Ned highlighted the need for veteran players who know how to win (because there are a lot of U22 veteran players out there! Tons!)
- Targeting a top level midfielder in what should be a "busy" offseason (no notes, why not)
- Ned called Evander "selfish" for calling out the team publicly on Wednesday night (well, now you're calling out your team's best player publicly, so what does that make you?)
- Evander has been offered the biggest contract in club history. More contract talks will be had. (If I'm Evander, I'm making my way to another club ASAP after being called out publicly)
- Diego Chara is back (which is good, as long as his role evolves as his skills/speed decline)
- Timbers are bringing in a mental performance coach and a data analyst (about time they're catching up to the rest of the league on the data front)
I give Ned credit for bringing in the likes of Evander. But the more shit like this I see and hear, the more it seems like he's one of the problems. You can't simultaneously say the team needs veteran players who know how to win and then say you're using one of your biggest open roster slots on yet another kid! Those two things aren't the same!
This team is such a mess, I don't even know where to start.
LOL. Last year Ned called out the coaching instead of his own shitty work. Calling his turd roster good enough when we all saw what it was. Seems pretty selfish to me.
Clown. Even if Evander sucked I’d take his side here.
Ned and Merritt were made for each other. Our FO is garbage. Ned sucks at his job and he sucks on the mic.
Did he take any accountability, whatsoever? Evander at least did that.
I didn't actually watch or listen, all I know is those quotes in that tweet. But I would doubt that he took any accountability, from what I read. I was willing to defend Ned, and have defended him in the past, because he has brought in some good players. But I'm done. He needs to go, as does MP. But sadly, neither is likely to happen.
Last year he said all the talent was there for success. That was a joke and super disingenuous when they were looking to splash cash on attackers. I wonder what kind of comedy he’s got cooked up for this year as I don’t think he can throw the coach under the bus again.
I wonder if the TA would be willing to stage a sit out the first game of next season? I'm not in the TA anymore but I'd be willing to sacrifice our seats to make a statement about MP needing to go. Would anyone here be willing to join me?
It would take much more than the TA, in my opinion. It would take the people in the expensive seats no longer buying those expensive seats. TA seats are subsidized by the rest of the stadium; they're the cheapest seats in the place, and the Paulsons have proven over and over again that what they listen to is money, not people.
The TA makes the noise and brings the atmosphere, but the rich folk pay the bills. Get them to stop doing that, and the Paulsons might listen.
My quick take is that this was a season where a great group of attacking players occasionally disguised a lack of a plan at the coaching level. I wouldn’t say the non-offensive players were uniformly bad, there just wasn’t a realistic plan for how they were going to defend or manage the midfield, or at least the players didn’t play as if there was such a plan. On offense things worked until they didn’t, that is until people figured us out. But since the attacking players were more or less just winging it, the coaching staff didn’t have an attacking plan b, except to maybe throw Anthony in there. And then Vancouver looked at the tape, made a plan, and crushed us systematically.
The saddest thing, and the most damning thing, is that the plan Vancouver put together probably took all of about 30 seconds to build. It's super easy; stop the supply to the three dangerous scorers however you can, and it's game over. That's it, that's the plan. And that's what Vancouver did.
They denied any Timber meaningful time on the ball, they forced Jonathan to essentially play a deeper midfield role for most of the first half at least, which we could see on his face was frustrating the hell out of him and probably led to a lot of those runs to nowhere, as he was trying to force a lot of things to happen, and not at all successfully.
In the words of Wilson Pickett (watch that video of him in Africa, it will help) Don’t let the green grass fool you.
I don’t think I’ll get a ton of amens here. But I’d kind of like to see what Gio might have done with this attacking talent. He needed more offensive talent and had to settle on a pragmatic and boring as hell approach. He had Evander in his acclimation year and without Mora and Rodriguez. We were going pretty good with healthy Fernandez.
At the same time it was fun but clearly not satisfying seeing Phil’s damn it all approach to getting forward. And it was, sorry Wilson, time for Gio to move on.
Maybe the better argument is I’d like to see what a half-decent coach could have done here. Not sure Phil is that guy.
gio was absolute rubbish, still struggling to erase his tenure from my mind. I gag every time I think back.
yeah, I'm not sure Gio would be the answer, because I don't think Gio's offensive approach was all that proactive (although with a healthy Mora and maybe a Jonathan that may have changed), but I definitely would like to see what a coach with a plan could have done with this group. I'm still not impressed with Phil, but I'm also not surprised by Phil. This is who he is, and this is what we're stuck with for at least another season.
Gio is 300 time the coach neville is. Gio never had Rodriguez, Mora and Evander in full form together, so many injuries... better results, better defense.... some degree of trophies, a final....
Gio had a full strength Mora with Valeri and a still-healthy Blanco in 2021, so let's not pretend that injuries were Gio's only hindrance later in his tenure as coach.
Wait, you are not comparing Valeri at the end of his career and semi-healthy Blanco with Evander-Rodriguez-Mora, are you? Not even close. But yes, Gio at some point had a good team and when he did he won a tournament and reached a final. Although, I agree, by no means it was just injuries. I think not just Gio, any other cable coach would do a lot better with our current roster.
lmao you think J-rod is some game changer on their level? Sure Evander has talent but he doesn't bleed for the team and put them on his back the way Blanco could, not in a million years. Plus it was a different era, comparing the league then to now it is definitely a comparison and it's not even close!
Not a direct comp, no, but my point is that Gio wasn't exactly hobbled by a lack of talent while he was coaching the Timbers, and at the end of his time in Portland, he couldn't coax decent performances out of even a mostly healthy roster.
I don't want to relitigate Gio's necessary exit; all I'm saying is that moving forward was the right call, and at this point to look back and say "Gio could have done better" is both wishcasting and also kind of obvious, because literally anyone not named Phil Neville could have done better with this lineup, I think.
Letting Gio go was the right move; hiring Phil was the wrong one. But here we are, and here we're stuck for at least another season.
Well hindsight vision and everything... But I 100% would have liked to try re-loaded offense with Gio than going to Phil.
But when Gio was let go I was definitely thinking bigger.
Yeah, I was definitely ready to move on from Gio, and didn't want to reload and try again with him. I just wanted - and want - the FO to think bigger than Phil.
I am a 100% Gio-stan, so you'll get no back talk from me. Good MLS coach, good guy, good results in years when the team wasn't riddled by injury and various unspecified front office drama.
cough good results when Blanco put him on his shoulders cough
Gio was great if you wanted to go to a game and catch a nap.
I haven't been part of this forum for a long time but feel the necessity to express my anger towards Neville.
1. His post match interviews, always poking his nose, not looking at the camera and throwing his players under the bus. I have never in my life seen a coach doing this. Saying his take responsibility but in fact then saying only one players made an effort. It is true many players did not have a good game, but effort? You are blaming a legend, Diego Chara, on perhaps his last game as a Timber on effort? This is so disrespectful towards all involved
2, He in fact got outcoached. Surprise surprise. Rodriguez isolated all night and he throwing his long balls at him because we had no midfield.
3. Not able to fix the defense all year even through he brought his own central defender
4. Imposing his style on a bunch of South American players....
He needs to go, and the guy who hired him needs to go as well
4. Imposing his style on a bunch of South American players....
Wait! We have a style of play? I thought it was more we put 11 players out there and they figure out what to do.
"run around like a drunken baby giraffe" is a style
HAHAHA
Last night was the first time I have heard Phil say "I take full responsibility" all season. He usually just swipes at his players and their mentality. I don't give him credit for finally saying this; it's more like where the hell has it been all season? it's never been solely down to the players, and it's rarely if ever down to "mentality".
It is what followed after saying that. Those were empty words.
His words are always empty, and as I say, I don't credit him for saying those particular words last night. They don't mean anything after a whole season of him saying "blah blah blah mentality blah blah blah" or whatever.
Aye!
When I root, I root for the Timbers.
Until Paulson sells, I don't root.
It wasn’t a good year, but it was a fun year in my opinion. Or at least interesting when not fun. Until these last few weeks and last night’s exclamation point.
Hard to think there wasn’t some sort of Borchers or Jewsbury to add at some point. If Evander isn’t back it’ll be hard to rally up enthusiasm. Hopefully we can hold on to the little bit of progress we’ve made since Gio left.
"Under a chorus of boos, the Timbers went into the locker room facing the worst halftime deficit they had seen the entire season."
It should be noted that that chorus of boos was aimed squarely at Phil Neville, who it should also be noted jogged very quickly off the pitch, ahead of all his players. When the players came to the tunnel, there was no booing. There wasn't a thunderous ovation, but there was half-hearted applause.
The problems last night were symptomatic of the problems that have plagued the Timbers for 3 seasons. The recruitment of players has led to a squad that doesn't have a cohesive game model.
We rely on attacking players going on a streak of form, however when that streak breaks down then there is no plan B.
If the last 3 years are anything to go by, then we'll see little happen in the off-season - a few outs here and there and then we'll hit March and have a rough spring, a resurgent summer with a new attacking player signed in May.
One of the things I wonder about most strongly is which of the two really good GK's we have in house right now is gonna leave? The one who sat on the bench most of the season behind the supposed clear #1, or the supposed clear #1 who was benched for no obvious reason for the last three games of the season including a playoff game, which is where he's supposed to be at his best?
To be clear: I like them both and either way it goes, the Timbers will be OK (unless they both bail out of frustration). I just think that GK is one of the situations that Phil hasn't handled at all well this season, and it's going to cost the Timbers a really good player either way it shakes out.
Folks argued all season that it was a good problem to have - two good goal keepers. And it is, unless the understudy plays well over a significant stretch and causes questions to be raised when the no. 1's numbers are not good. I think Pantemis earned the right to start Wednesday. What would any coach do? If a player is hot, you go with the hot player, or do you ride and die with the other guy who, like I said, his numbers were not good? Other factors are how the locker room takes it. Does it unsettle the squad to go with Pantemis? (It didn't seem to against Seattle) Sadly, the result did not go in his favor. The defense definitely let him down, and to be fair, I am reappraising Crepeau, who I often blamed. Who is better? I still lean Pantemis, and I think the team will get some interest from him from around the league. I guess you could shop both and see what you can get and go with the best offer. Having both on the team next year will be a distraction. Personally, I think Pantemis deserves a payday after this season.
I mean, it is a good problem to have - and like you, I am also kinda taking another look at Crepeau. He definitely took a step back from his LAFC form. Whether that's down to a post-really-bad-injury "he'll never be the same" sort of thing, who knows, and he's still quite good, for sure; he just wasn't AS good as he was with LAFC.
But I also am not one who thinks a goalkeeper is 100% responsible for a team's - or a defense's - results. Like, Wednesday, Pantemis was hung out to dry for probably all five of the goals (I can't really bring myself to rewatch yet), so none were solely "his fault" as such. I'm not sure Crepeau would have done any better - particularly on the chip, which was out of Pantemis' reach, and Pantemis has a height advantage over Crepeau.
It is going to be an interesting off season, for sure.
I was a goalkeeper in high school and college and have always considered myself a keen observer of goalkeeper play. To me the best keepers have always been those who 1) Take positioning seriously 2) Have unreal reaction times 3) Yell at their defenders frequently.
I think Pantemis is better at #1, Crépeau has the advantage on #2, but neither one is particularly strong on #3. The lack of communication between defenders, and between the defenders and the keeper, has been obvious for a few years now, and it reared it's ugly head in full force on Wednesday night. You really need either a strong-mouthed keeper or a defender to keep things in order on the back line, and we haven't had either for awhile now.
I disagree with your assessment on number two. Pantemis gets down quicker and shoots off his line quicker. And the numbers back it up as does the eye test. The difference is crepeau gets beat low and oantemis gets beat maybe more mid range
So I'm not on social media and also this cursed platform doesn't allow for posting of screenshots/images, but for those who are on social media, Evander took an absolute blowtorch to the front office last night.
This club is broken. MP needs to sell.
Ok. Unpopular opinion coming. In the last game of the season, the team didn’t show up. Not the defense and certainly not the offense. Our three top goal scorers have been MIA for the last 4 games or more. It could be coincidence, or a bad vibe in the locker room. It’s very conceivable players have a beef with Neville for some reason and it’s very likely Neville just isn’t that great a coach. But here’s the thing, a beef with the front office should not dictate whether a professional athlete decides to compete on the pitch in the last match. Did Vancouver have a plan to deal with our offensive threats? Sure. Was Neville out coached? Probably. But that’s happened many times this season and it’s not resulted in a 5 nil blowout. The players on the pitch have some responsibility here. Pointing to mystery grievances with the front office as the excuse for not bringing it in the final match is really weak sauce, in my opinion. If Evander is unhappy here, he needs to ask for a trade. I hope his beefs with whomever in the front office aren’t leading to a poisonous atmosphere in the locker room. Again, I’m not saying folks grievances with Neville, Paulson and Grabavoy aren’t founded. I’m saying there’s a time and place to make that point. The last match on the home pitch isn’t it.
Oh, I 100% agree that the team didn't show up. I also agree that the team shoulders some blame. because they needed to be ready to play. My theory is not that the team acted like petulant children on Wednesday and decided not to play because of some grudges.
But! it's also not hard to see how, after a long season of dealing with a bunch of shit that is a constant source of frustration, a player could easily just be like 'you know what, I'm not gonna'. And it's also not hard to see how that could snowball when it's 2-0 early. I'm not saying it's done on purpose; it's just...have you ever had a bad, super-bad, really frustrating day at work after a long stretch of frustrating days? They may not have done it on purpose, but it's kinda easy to see how that situation can develop.
And there's where your "Was Neville out coached?" thing comes in to play. If Neville was a coach with a plan, no matter how badly things were going on the pitch, there'd be a game plan, a "coach said to do THIS, so I'm gonna do THIS and we'll see if that can dig us out of this mess". There's no real evidence, over the course of this season, that Neville has done that. So the players are left to their own devices to try to mentality their way out of things, and if their mentality isn't good, for whatever reason, well, you get Wednesday night.
"I hope his beefs with whomever in the front office aren’t leading to a poisonous atmosphere in the locker room"
From what I'm seeing yesterday, it's not just Evander; he's just the one who's seemingly giving voice to what a lot of Timbers have been feeling for a long time. And for what it's worth, Evander stepped up and took the blame for the loss yesterday in the midst of his beef, so he's not just dropping bombs and not looking back.
I think it was just a fool hardy plan of pressing and bombing forward when a more conservative approach would have been in order, like up in Seattle. Let the game slow down and allow your team to build or counter. When they tried to press and Vancouver slipped through a few times, and were allowed to get some early balls in, we had trouble defending. I doubt Vancouver would have been too threatening had we had more guys behind the ball. Phil went for it, like he usually does, but in the playoffs, teams are primed and don't allow comebacks as easily as they do when they are in the middle of a season and there's a lot of rotation, etc. Vancouver hadn't played real well up until this point, but they were missing a boatload of guys in the few weeks prior to the match. I don't have an issue with Ned; I have more of an issue with Phil and have little faith that he is going to outcoach teams or have his team better prepared.
What did he say?
His first tweet was "First, I want to apologize to all the fans who, on a Wednesday night, dropped everything to support us. It’s really hard to lose the way we did. The truth is, losing is not in our plans, but we have to deal with it." Which is fairly standard disappointed-athlete stuff. Then he turned both barrels on the FO:
"Portland fans do not deserve the people who have power over this club. People who say they are men but do not keep their word. People who are only there when the team wins. Unfortunately, these are things we have no control over"
"What happens off the field reflects on the field"
Well damn. More than enough track record to take Evander at his word here. I’m guessing it’s roster help and hoping it isn’t something worse he’s referring to off the field.
FO isn’t smart or, at least at the top, very decent.
Yeah, saw those quotes. But, what do they mean? Who is Evander talking about? What men did not keep what word? How did that contribute to an embarrassing effort on the pitch?
Combine what Evander said with Neville saying, “But I also have seen signs over the last three or four weeks of one or two players — maybe more than one or two — just quitting on each other, quitting on the team, quitting on the club", and it seems we may have major rift between some players (Evander?) and the coach.
What a cluster.
That's just it - we don't know. We may never know. But there is clearly a lot of dysfunction behind the scenes, and I think it's reasonable to assume that that dysfunction starts at the top. MP's "step back" may mean that he literally does not give a shit what happens at "his" team any more, and he just lets things fester and rot and never bothers to solve problems or intervene, or it may mean that he's still letting toxic people do toxic things.
We don't know, but it's clearly still a mess and the house still clearly needs to be cleaned.
Merritt’s step away ended when he became the face of the Neville hire. I believe his hands are still all over everything. At least he spent this year. But doofus isn’t very good at this.
The team has needed to be sold at least since the scandals broke about MP and the front office. New ownership doesn't doesn't automatically solve all problems (e.g. the Thorns) but it at least can provide a more solid foundation for improvement over time. I like MP when I met him a few years ago when he came to Bend to meet with our local supporters group. He was engaging and enthusiastic. He promised we'd have a grass field some day. Now, this mess is what we have and he's nowhere to be seen.
It sounds like Evander put words to what we saw on the field.
I'm glad Evander said it. The problems that have turned this team into a shell of it's former glory over the last 3 years are clearly off the field. The passion and energy that made this club so special have been badly drained, and how we've ended up with Phil Neville blaming everybody but himself for the shambles that the Timbers have become. And he's just the most obvious symptom of a club that's lost it's way.
As for last night's debacle that I fortunately couldn't attend, it wasn't the result that bothered me as much as the fact that the team didn't even seem like they cared about the game and never tried. I could name a few players that seemed completely checked-out from the opening whistle but the problems with this club right now run much deeper.
Evander stating what needed to be said is a very good start.
Neville has always blamed everybody but himself. He was a whiney little jerk when he coached the English women's national team (a job that he had no qualifications for and should never have held) and he's still the same here. I never liked the hire but tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. The whole coaching staff needs to go and Paulson needs to sell.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with Phil for at least another season, almost no matter what else happens - no way Ned's gonna admit defeat on that front after only one season. If next season starts as catastrophically as this season did, it might be reasonable to fire him, but as it sits now, he's not going anywhere. Nor is MP, annoyingly.
Yup. The thing that bugged me the most was that the Timbers were literally gifted a home game out of nowhere, handed a golden opportunity to advance in a playoff that by all rights they shouldn't even have been in, and they couldn't even be bothered to show up for the handout they were given. It's an embarrassment and they should all be pretty fucking disgusted with themselves today.
Last night was just the culmination of what we've seen brewing over the past four or five games. A lot of players have just seemed to be checked out. Maybe there are problems beyond Neville's continual reference to players needed to have the proper "mentality" to win as opposed to maybe a proper game plan?
It sounds like there absolutely are. We as outsiders will probably never know what those might be, but that whole "mentality" BS is a symptom of a clubhouse/front office that just isn't working.
Yeah, I'm not scapegoating Phil really - I was against the hire from day one, and nothing I've seen this season has changed my opinion of him. He is what he is. But this team's problems, as you say, are way bigger than a coach who lacks the people skills to get the best out of an underperforming group of, particularly, defenders.
And yeah, good on Evander for sure - also, how damning is it that a guy who has only been here that small amount of time sees that much cancer this quickly?
"Either way, it goes up to the top."
100%. I am also not quite sure that Ned is the problem - after all, Ned brought in Evander and Jonathan, and he has said that the team will have money to spend this winter. So the player acquisition part of the front office itself doesn't seem to be a problem? Maybe?
Which leaves the rest of the front office, i.e. MP and co. I have no idea what the front office does for a living, like, what working there entails every day, but it seems like it's still a fairly problematic place, and those problems won't stop until MP sells.
Just some thoughts.
Roster: deadweight
Paredes, Williamson, Loria, mcgraw (who i was high on) need to go. They are dead weight. These are players who have been here and you can count the number of above average games they had this year on one hand. There is zero accountability in this team. None of these players have proven they can be average or better mls players and all have peaked on the team. They need to go. Period. Because if it's between them and a young player that hasn't hit his peak, I am taking a young players. They could develop into superstars. They could not. We don't know but that's alot better than knowing what we got and it isn't good.
Roster: the defense
The entire defense besides surname needs to go.
K. Miller is literally just a younger mabiala. He has the athleticism of a lamppost. He isn't quick. Isn't goal dangerous. He isn't even close to the best cb on the team. (I would say surname and zuparic are better) k Miller is taking up a good chunk of salary especially for someone who was brought into the team based on Neville nepotism. The coach literally asked for him and he ended up being benched. How bad do have to be friends with the coach and lose your position.
Aurajo did better than the year before but when you are better than the year before and still on one of the worst defenses in the league. It says it all. He isn't good enough.
Zuparic I think is the best cb we have based on sample size but just like aurajo, you just put up one of the worst defensive performances in mls over the season. He has been here for years and we have missed the playoffs for the last 3. It's time for accountability. Goodbye.
Masquera and bravo. Both young players and I like giving young players chances on the off chance they become something special. But ffs bravo seriously has had to be one of the worst and most liable defenders over the last two years. Always out of position. Always fouling or making dumb decisions around the box.
Masquera. I don't like him. He had the athletic attributes to be a good player but ffs how many times have I watched him completely lose his mark. How many times have I seen the simplest 1, 2 between players completely take him out of a play.
These two guys are wingbacks but here is the thing. We don't play a system that benefits wingbacks. We need traditional fullbacks if we are going to play with a 4 man back line. Because neither one of these guys are good defenders. They are low IQ wingbacks. End of story. Which means they continually read the situation wrong and leave our defense out to dry. Why we never went to a 3 back system is beyond me.
In the end we need accountability and one of the worst defensive performances as a whole should say it's time to completely revamp the defense around surname and get some defense first fullbacks. what I mean by that is fullbacks that have excellent defensive numbers first, not offensive. Offense wins games but defense wins championships. As proven this year.
Roster: goalkeepers
I honestly think crepeau will go. I don't base it on a bad season. I think he will go because he had a really really good copa america. Most of the times when that happens in a major tournament, a lot of suitors come calling and so does the money. Pantemis showed he could be an excellent keeper. An above average keeper, and his performances should give our FO confidence in making a deal happen if some good offers come in for crepeau. And maybe that's why he didn't play the last 3 games. Maybe he is already "gone."
Roster: midfield and forwards
Ayala had a great year and I am glad he continues to improve. With all his injuries I didn't have faith in him. I thought it was a risk to count on him (two major injuries), chara (time will catch him) and Paredes (not consistent and below average) to run the midfield. But I am glad he stayed healthy. He had some really good games and some not so good but he is still young and has obviously not peaked.
Chara had his final good season last year. You see there is a rule. Every older player will have one last banger of a season before they leap off the mountain. Valeri did in 2018? (I think it was 2018. Maybe later) blanco also did the year before we resigned him but like clockwork you see a drop the very next season and then it goes down, down, and down. I think that is exactly where chara is.its not just the physical side. It's the mental side. Chara just made bad decisions all year round. Valeri and blanco did the same thing as they started to age out. So are we seeing the end of chara as a catalyst in the midfield. I think so. I think it's time to put him on the bench and find his replacements now...not tomorrow.
Our young guys Moreno and Antony. I really think Moreno took strides this year. Over the last two years you saw flashes of growth followed by inconsistency and bad performances. But this year it really looked like Moreno came into his own. Like you can start to see older players flame out with bad performances and irregular decisions. There is a point when you see maturity just click in and a player becomes a man within the game. No longer a boy. I really do feel like this was Morenos year. His confidence and decision making took a step forward and rather than playing alongside mora, Jonathan, Evander, it felt like he was becoming an integral part in that forward line. He had become a man playing with men in front of our eyes. Its the same jump i saw from chelsea pulisic to milan pulisic. His play syarted to mature. I really hope moreno can now continue to grow.
Antony reminds me of Moreno 2 seasons ago. Flashes of class and ability but man does he just make some of the dumbest decisions. Poor passes. Poor choices. Missed opportunities. Maybe it will come with time but I would say it wasn't the best season for him but I won't give up on him. He just needs to find that same moment of maturity and flip the switch. I feel like it's a couple seasons away though.
THE TRIUMVIRATE: Mora, Jonathan, Evander
I am gonna start with Evander. I got it wrong with him. I wasn't high on him. His lack of hustle. His lack of pace and power. Just the way he carried himself on the field really made me not think he was the right guy for this team. I didn't think we were gonna play the way I think we should with him. And we didn't, but he still brought us up to another level. He might not be the 10 I like and might not be able to play a high intensity, high press, quick movement all over the place, but no doubt his ability to read the game and his quality when on the ball is above 95% of all players in the league. He made a bad season enjoyable to watch. Even if results were infuriating. I had him wrong and I am glad I did.
Jonathan. I was glad we got him and unlike Evander I was right about him. Not that he was a first choice but because he was exactly what I thought he was. He is a veteran player with quality that we payed 5 million for. It wasn't a big investment and I still felt he had plenty to give. His 5 mil fee means we could potentially buy him down in a couple seasons if he starts to "age out" and spend on another dp without breaking the bank. I still believe he has 2 good seasons left in him before we start to see gradual decline.
Mora. Mora has to be comeback player of the year. He had a phenomenal season after two seasons of injuries. Especially at his age. When healthy he has been our best forward (maybe even when unhealthy. Niezgoda) but here is my concern. Are we gonna see the valeri, blanco, chara drop off? I'm just not confident that he will keep it up next year or even the year after and we are gonna end up riding out his mediocre years in hopes he catches form again. Like we did with valeri and blanco. Like we are now with chara. Now that could be a nihilistic approach. Maybe we get a couple solid year more from him, but I just don't know if it's a risk worth taking. We saw how bad our offense staggered over multiple seasons without a consistent striker threat. Jonathan hasn't been good as a striker, and toye had chances and came up with 0 goals 0 assists. So if mora does start to drop off or gets hurt, who do we have to be the guy? Maybe we start the season with mora but if mid-season hits and he isn't, I hope they pull the trigger and don't sit on there hands like they do every year.
Summary: off-season
Mora
Jonathan Evander Moreno
Ayala. ?
? Surname. ? ?
Pandemic
Bench:
Antony
Chara
Toye
K. Miller (nepo Neville guy)
This is really what I see as our best choices and who we should build the team around. Everyone else needs to go. Players who have hit there peak. Players who have been locker room issues in the past. Players who have been a part of 3 seasons of no post season run. You have to have players who not only challenge starters but can make a difference off the bench. We don't have it and the players we have especially on defense have proven year after year after year they just aren't good enough.
I've got similar thoughts, though it would make fewer changes. The area that simply needs the most attention is the defense, and it starts with Ridgewell. If he was really responsible for the defense he should be gone, no questions. I would blow up the defense, with the only possible exceptions of Bravo, Zuparic, and probably Surman. It is way too passive, and I don't know how possible it would be to change the whole mindset of the players who are here (and have been here for 2+ years). If you keep more than a couple of players they will revert to how they have been coached to play over the years. This is the area that needs to be addressed in the offseason.
I basically agree with everything you say here. K Miller could play LB at times, too. One guy you didn't mention is E Miller. I think he was a complete bargain and should get a pay raise. He's a solid pro. I think Paredes is good to have on the squad. He's a good squad guy. Of the dead weight, I'd keep him. I'm not as high on Moreno as you are, but he's gotten better. He loses the ball a lot, though. I think Rodriguez was fatigued and hampered by injury at the end of the year. Otherwise, he was slicing guys in the beginning and that was a solid pickup. Mora is not the guy to build around, though. We need a more dynamic forward, although, I think he was very good this year overall. He just faded, and it would've been nice to see Toye come off the bench, but his injury prevented that when we needed him most.
I watched as much of the presser as I could stomach. Ned and Phil both go HARD at Evander for his quotes.
They are self-righteous jackasses.
For one, if tearing into your club is so wrong and so bad, why is absolutely hammering an individual within it just? For another, Ned talks a real big game about culture but I have never, ever heard him take accountability for laughable failures in roster construction. A better man might at least acknowledge that contract talks and a baffling failure to do goddam anything about the shitty defense may have had some affect on Evander. Show some level of emotional maturity and accountability. I have never seen it from him. Not now and not when he came after fans for being a woke mob (blaming the victims of years of bullshit for a very natural response) after Phil was hired. If he is a token of the culture we’re trying to build, lord help us.
I am wildly disappointed in Ned’s work and his character. Phil’s manipulative bullshit about Evander being like a son to him as he also lit into him was also a piece of work. Last weekend was the black swan, as Phil always lays things on players’ failures. In fact maybe Evander was following their cultural lead.
I hope Evander walks and tells no one to ever come play here.
Our FO is infuriating.
When players think they are doing a favor to their teammates while playing, is the worst thing that could happen. The body language says it all. There's clearly a major disconnection and selfishness in this team, and it is compounded by Neville's blatant ineptitude whose job is also to make sure there is cohesiveness and unselfishness in his team. It seems redundant to remind that under his direction Miami was (the worst team) last in 2022. I was never fun of Evander who, while an above average player - I am too old to have witnessed other great and not so great players - it deepened the disconnection on the front instead of improving it. He has this clear affinity with Antony, who is not always a reliable teammate. It would suck to be a member of this team. I struggle in understanding why Grabavoy - and whoever agreed with him - about bringing Neville (therefore K Miller), who were part of that terrible Miami team, and instead they are now enjoying of good - rather excellent and sound - business decisions. Good for Inter Miami for recognizing what the problem was. I never saw fans leaving en masse way before the final whistle. That was the saddest thing I've' witnessed in my long-term support of the Timbers (even before Paulson became the owner). Sad, really sad...
There's a lot to unpack there, but:
"Good for Inter Miami for recognizing what the problem was."
Literally the only reason they got rid of Neville was because Messi wanted Tata Martino to coach him again. They didn't fire Phil because he was bad, they fired him because he wasn't Tata Martino (and I don't say that as a defense of Phil Neville, it's just a fact). Miami's "sound business decisions" all revolve around Lionel Messi. That's not a replicable business model, and it'll be interesting to see how sound those decisions appear after 2025, when Messi retires, Suarez can't walk any more, and Inter Miami's 15 million Instagram followers all of a sudden vanish into thin air, leaving Miami right back where they were when Neville was their coach, but in a brand new stadium that nobody can afford tickets to.
So, anyone else remember when that team that shall not be named refunded season tickets holders with a credit for the next season after an embarrassing loss to LA? That was for a 4-0 regular season loss...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/390019-will-seattle-sounders-poor-play-refund-set-a-precedent.amp.html
I do not want a refund. I hate that as a thing people think is a reasonable expectation. That's like going to Las Vegas and demanding a refund because you put $100 in a slot machine and didn't get it back.
I want the club I follow to be better at what it does, top to bottom. And I want them to be ruthless about it. There is no reason the Timbers can't be one of the elite teams in this league - not monetary, not fanbase size, not one. MP just doesn't give enough of a damn to want to. If they can't or won't do that, I want current ownership to sell to someone who wants to make the club better.
I have to disagree about refunds. I'm a paying customer and if the product I buy is defective I want my money back. Obviously, that's not going to happen here. Your Vegas reference makes sense unless you're there playing on machines that aren't functioning properly. This team isn't functioning properly.
But that's how sports works - there's never a guarantee that a team is gonna win, whether the team is "functioning properly" or not. The degree of losing is not great, but I don't go into paying for a sporting event with the attitude of "if this is a blowout, I am entitled to my money back". I got exactly what I paid for - a completed sporting event. It didn't go the way I wanted, but that's beside the point.
Bad losses in sports happen, even with well-functioning teams - the 2001 Mariners won 116 games, and the regular season game from that season that always sticks with me is a game against Cleveland that they lost after blowing a 12 run lead in the 7th inning. Not once after that game did I think "I WANT A REFUND", because, well, sometimes shit happens.
Sorry but that is ludicrous, bordering on Karen logic and entitlement.
How is a loss - something most adults know is a possibility in literally every sporting event - a defective product?
When you bought that ticket how were you purchasing anything other than admission to the game?
Can you show anywhere in any of the fine print that you're not just buying a ticket to a game but a result that you find acceptable? Since when are results guaranteed, ever?
If you can't handle a loss, don't go to soccer games.
If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you without being insulting, perhaps you should stay away from here.
I don’t actually want a refund. However, if I buy tickets to watch a team play I have a right to expect them to play as well as they can. Our club did not do that. They breached “the contract”. By the same token, I have no idea why anyone would but a ticket to see the Blazers tanking. But if I were to do so, I’d know ahead of time they weren’t going to try to win. That wasn’t the case with the last Timbers game. I actually thought they were going to try to win.
lol gets triggered at being called a Karen for wanting a refund
I didn't remember that and I'd probably settle for at least getting the $288 I wasted for our 4 tickets last night. Meanwhile, I'm in the midst of a payment plan to cover the several thousand for next year's tickets.
I'm sorry but you got some wild takes. You deserve a refund for buying tickets to a bad team. (Your choice) or 288 for the wildcard game (your choice) and then complain about a payment plan of several thousand dollars for next year. (Your choice) ffs this is the attitude I hate from certain types of people. Absolutely no responsibility for THEIR CHOICES. Your not a victim. You are your own problem. You don't want people to call you out then grow up and act like an adult.
Ah, so love poking people like you. No, I’m not a victim. I’m a pissed off customer. Trying to educate you about the difference would be a waste of time. Would you buy tickets if you knew ahead of time that the team’s star player was going to dog it? Yeah, sounds like someone like you would.
can we rebuild the entire franchise yet? is it enough yet?
After listening to the ned and Phillips interview again. I think Moreno is gone. I'm actually pretty confident he is gone.
I don’t know how credible all this is. Obviously the instagram post happened. There’s an additional claim that Evander called out Grabavoy in front of the entire squad and coaches and Ned himself. Also claims an ongoing contract dispute that I was somehow unaware of. Among the weirdest things is that his post ended with ‘see you next year’ so hopefully that’s good.
https://www.goal.com/en-us/lists/portland-timbers-mls-mvp-favorite-evander-calls-out-people-who-have-power-over-club-after-thrashing-western-conference-wildcard-vancouver-whitecaps/bltf89fdb135a675e2a
Do we know if Ned Grabavoy's conference is live or will it be recorded? If it's live, any idea what time today? Friday, October 25th I mean.
Sooooooooooooo he had his presser. And he said words. And his words have pretty much torched any lingering faith I had in him. From Adam Susman's tweet (https://x.com/adam_susman/status/1849874990214283629?t=vIuwCREldGubJ8K0wRhsBg):
- The club plans to use its open U22 slot on a young attacker (because we all looked at the 2024 Timbers and said "scoring was a problem", right?)
- Ned highlighted the need for veteran players who know how to win (because there are a lot of U22 veteran players out there! Tons!)
- Targeting a top level midfielder in what should be a "busy" offseason (no notes, why not)
- Ned called Evander "selfish" for calling out the team publicly on Wednesday night (well, now you're calling out your team's best player publicly, so what does that make you?)
- Evander has been offered the biggest contract in club history. More contract talks will be had. (If I'm Evander, I'm making my way to another club ASAP after being called out publicly)
- Diego Chara is back (which is good, as long as his role evolves as his skills/speed decline)
- Timbers are bringing in a mental performance coach and a data analyst (about time they're catching up to the rest of the league on the data front)
I give Ned credit for bringing in the likes of Evander. But the more shit like this I see and hear, the more it seems like he's one of the problems. You can't simultaneously say the team needs veteran players who know how to win and then say you're using one of your biggest open roster slots on yet another kid! Those two things aren't the same!
This team is such a mess, I don't even know where to start.
LOL. Last year Ned called out the coaching instead of his own shitty work. Calling his turd roster good enough when we all saw what it was. Seems pretty selfish to me.
Clown. Even if Evander sucked I’d take his side here.
Ned and Merritt were made for each other. Our FO is garbage. Ned sucks at his job and he sucks on the mic.
Did he take any accountability, whatsoever? Evander at least did that.
I didn't actually watch or listen, all I know is those quotes in that tweet. But I would doubt that he took any accountability, from what I read. I was willing to defend Ned, and have defended him in the past, because he has brought in some good players. But I'm done. He needs to go, as does MP. But sadly, neither is likely to happen.
Last year he said all the talent was there for success. That was a joke and super disingenuous when they were looking to splash cash on attackers. I wonder what kind of comedy he’s got cooked up for this year as I don’t think he can throw the coach under the bus again.
Hope someone is there to ask tough questions.
I wonder if the TA would be willing to stage a sit out the first game of next season? I'm not in the TA anymore but I'd be willing to sacrifice our seats to make a statement about MP needing to go. Would anyone here be willing to join me?
It would take much more than the TA, in my opinion. It would take the people in the expensive seats no longer buying those expensive seats. TA seats are subsidized by the rest of the stadium; they're the cheapest seats in the place, and the Paulsons have proven over and over again that what they listen to is money, not people.
The TA makes the noise and brings the atmosphere, but the rich folk pay the bills. Get them to stop doing that, and the Paulsons might listen.