Wish we could post photos here, but a reason to say "awwe" is Sarah Lowden posted a picture of her and Broon getting coffee this morning. Glad they are keeping in touch with Becky. Hopefully offering her a job. :)
I would love to see Sauerbrunn, Sinclair, or Kling get that last assistant position. Frankly, I’d be open to funding either of their coaching licenses if they doesn’t have one if I were Argoos.
Our latest discussion post has found it's way down the list so I'm just posting here for Thorns news now because it's the newest!
Anyways...Thorns Sighting!
Just saw Jessie Fleming with (and I'm like 90% sure) Olivia Athens walking around at the PSU farmers market. Makes sense, they do have UCLA ties. Gotta be the 7th or so Thorn I've seen at the market in the last year.
Anyways...Olivia Athens was let go from Seattle Reign during the offseason and is a free agent. She's a midfielder who isn't from the PNW (but, from CA.) Not sure why else she'd be in Portland, but if I were a betting gal, we've picked her up. For those who used to watch a lot of college soccer, does Athens play as more of an 8 or a pure 10? I seem to kinda remember her as a 10 or in a more attacking role, and I think that's where Harvey deployed her as well...but I can't quite remember. If she's a pure 10....well, that would be def unnecessary considering we have a glut of those already when we don't play with one. But, we do still need coverage in other areas of midfield if she's got some defensive chops.
Our group wound up volunteering alongside Jeff Agoos the other day at the food bank. Nothing really to take away from it, we left him in peace since it wasn’t the time or the place to bug someone, but kind of like when we caught the same train as KK and her family going up to watch the Seattle match last year, just one of those fun moments of it still being a smaller city, public figures stand out.
That train ride is still one of my favorites for an afternoon mariners game. Catch the 6:45am and get to Seattle a little after 10. Take the 5:40 or 7:50pm train home depending on whether you want to spend some time in downtown Seattle.
Need to do the Portland to Bellingham again. It’s pretty.
I'm pretty sure there's just a picture of Olivia Athens when you look up "roster filler" in the dictionary, but she is a better backup 8 than anything we have.
Well yeah I wasn't expecting any real excitement with a backup 8 lol. But I wasn't sure if she was an 8 or more of a 10. We very much needed a backup 8 because, well, we don't have any? Lol. Hirst (6), Athens (8) and OWK (6/10) would be the deep bench/backups in mf. Give her a year and see how she does.
"Earned second-team All-Pacific-Region and All-Pac-12 honors … Played and started 19 games … Ranked third on the team in scoring with four goals and 10 points … Scored the game-winning goal in overtime to beat ASU … Netted the game-winner against USC, her third career goal and second game-winner against the Trojans … Totaled one goal and one assist in the wins over CSUN and Oregon State … Both assists were on game-winners."
Can't get any of the UCLA summary vids to play but maybe there are full game vids somewhere? Guess attacking mid, as her sr year she took 26 shots. Something I hadn't considered is Reilyn Turner was a teammate.
It does seem like we already have too many midfielders? We have: Fleming (8/10), Moultrie (8/10), Wade-Katoa (10), Todin (9/10), Coffey (6/8/10), Hina (8/10?), Hirst (6), Castellanos (9, 10), McKenzie (8)... I may be a little off and obviously not all of them are starters at their nominal position. 6 still seems like the place where we have the least depth in midfield, 10 the most. I don't know Olivia Athens at all, though I may have seen her play for Seattle if she was ever in the lineup against us. Maybe she's a depth upgrade over Wade-Katoa, Hirst, or McKenzie? I don't think we have too many more roster spots available?
I would say neither Mallie or Tordin are actually midfielders (McKenzie in particular has played pretty exclusively at CB or wingback when she's gotten minutes), Castellanos is probably going to play on the wing, and Wade-Katoa is still injured. They would have 22 active players + OWK on the SEI if they signed Athens, so still four spots to fill if they're so inclined.
"I may be a little off and obviously not all of them are starters at their nominal position." I was trying to cover myself lol
I was including players than can or have played in some positions before and are nominally midfielders. I forgot that Wade-Katoa is injured and on the SEI list.
From that perspective, I can see how we are still a little thin at more defensive 8s, especially if McKenzie is being converted to CB. That makes me feel slightly better about center back depth though.
There are too many players I haven't seen enough of yet.
Tordin played most upfront in a striker role for Princeton, but she has good dribbling skills and her passing statistics were better than most. Her Xg and Xa are impressive if not inflated by her league.
McKenzie ended her career at Georgia as a FB.
Castellanos is being brought here as an inverted forward. If she plays the 10, I believe it is because we’ve transitioned to a 4-4-2 and we’d need bodies if we did that.
Athens would be a decent depth signing. Then again, she could have just been in town visiting friends or living with friends while she figures her next career step.
Some of those players don't play in midfield though (McKenzie- more of a FB/CB/WB), Tordin (more of a striker/false 9), and Deyna is listed as a F (or would be a 10.) We do still need a backup 8...Hirst is Sam's backup. OWK played a 6 in college for 3 years, but then as an attacking mid her senior year when she was pretty prolific (and I think what we signed her for.) Like kielbj mentioned, we have several hybrid 8/10 players but having a clearly defensive/box-to-box 8 in a backup role is still a need for this roster.
See my reply to kielbj above. I've debated Deyna elsewhere. I know how she's listed but I also know where she said she prefers to play, so I'm playing wait and see and splitting the difference. I didn't listen to the whole roster, just plays who *can* play certain midfield positions. I didn't know/remember about OWK having played as a 6. Sound like she's out for the season anyway, but her versatility may be a plus in the future.
I think OWK will actually be off of it soon. She's been in training and her knee injury wasn't an ACL. It was just considered an SEI because it was at the end of the season. But, I think she could be fine come the start of the season or shortly after. But yeah, she did play DM in college, but it's been a while. So we do have coverage at the 6 behind Sam (although I wish it were better *quality*) and we have plenty of attacking mids. But, I think we only have 2 players capable of playing as a true 8 (Fleming and Hina), so having at least 1 depth player behind them is good/needed imo. Yes, Sam could play an 8, but she will always be in the 6 if she's on the field. And yeah again, McKenzie certainly isn't an 8, nor is she even a mf. She played on the wing and then I think once at CB at the very end of a game because of an injury.
Sounds like McKenzie could play and maybe has played as a defensive 8 before but it also that it would probably be best to consider her center back, fullback, or wingback depth. By the time we get to our third choice 8, I'd be worried anyway, but we're thin somewhere too.
Differentiating defensive vs offensive 8s, thinking about what players' true positions are, and knowing how much space we still have gives me a better sense of the need for another defensive 8. Athens' passing is statically good but it doesn't look like she's great in progression/carries. Defensive stats also pretty solid, so a ball winner who can restart an attack. I'll allow it.
I think McKenzie did play a little at DM in college, but I'm not sure about the 8. I think she was also a winger lol. But I don't recall seeing her in midfield at all here. She seems kinda like a swiss army knife type player though! Always nice to have at least one. Athens probably wouldn't see the field a ton, but I do like that she's always been an excellent passer. Dropped balls in mf have been a dagger to this team in recent years. So long as she can just be safe and steady...that's nice to wrap up a game with.
CA as in California lol, not Canada. No int'l spot needed.
Also just went and looked at her IG and she follows the Thorns now. If she can play in central midfield, I'd say it's likely. Imo it's a better plan than that college 8 we were initially linked to who would cost an int'l spot. Maybe they're trying to keep that open because they have a target in mind, or want flexibility in the summer.
Reminder that Substack gives us the ability to "mute" or "block" specific users, which would be an easy fix if, say, a troll appeared to try to foul the vibe...
Presuming she takes to the new position it can only help. Guessing Hayes appreciates demonstrable positional flexibility, especially when the big tournaments arrive.
Europe does a lot of things better than the US in general, but racism and transphobia even among the more liberal leaning white Europeans is, I would say, far more normalized and accepted than it is in the same sort of spaces here.
I love her as a player and have long wanted her stateside. Not so much now. I realize there is controversy on this, but it is frightening how out in the open this type of behavior is now.
I wonder if leagues have a policy when this is in question. I’d be mortified if a player on our team did that
You don't have anything new or interesting to say. Your opinion isn't diverse. It's boilerplate. It's the same ignorant take that chuckleheads parrot all over the comments section of OregonLive. It isn't insightful or helpful.
You want diversity of opinion? Try asking Black women, immigrants, LGBTQIA+ people, the houseless, refugees, foreigners, and others who don't have their voices heard and faces seen all over mainstream media all the time.
Every accusation is a confession. Conservatives talk about playing victim, special privileges, etc. but always look for some excuse to feel oppressed and don't say shit about things like legacy admissions to Ivy League schools, interning at a company owned by a friend of their father, going into the family business, inheriting the family home, etc. Hypocrites.
Thanks for the passionate reply, Nicholas. It’s always good to hear that I’m not the only one who thinks about these issues—though perhaps a bit more nuance could go a long way. I see your point about diversifying perspectives, but it feels like you’re dismissing different viewpoints as if they’re all the same, which doesn’t really help the conversation. People can be critical of Portland's direction and still care deeply about those who are often overlooked. It’s not about ‘playing victim,’ but about finding solutions to actual issues, not simply shouting down anyone who dares to ask questions. Also, would love to hear more from you on legacy admissions—seems like an odd tangent but could be a great conversation starter.
“A bit more nuance?” Go revisit your original comment and initial reply to me.
“…dismissing different viewpoints.” No, just yours. I gave you a lengthy list of different perspectives you might tune into.
“….finding solutions to actual issues…” Poverty, trauma, mental health, ignorance, disability, lack of access to education and heath care, etc. are root causes of issues. The “solutions” that many, most, but admittedly not all people who share your tone propose exacerbate rather than ameliorate those problems.
“…shouting down…” Dude, I didn’t even resort to all caps. You mischaracterized what I said. You set the tone. Or did you not mean to be snarky and throw shade when you casually threw an entire city under the bus as if everywhere in town is as unsafe as the worst time and place to be.
Start by asking actual questions next time instead of a rhetorical question meant to throw shade, which is especially galling when now you’re trying to feign civility and DARVO this so I’m the baddy because I didn’t sufficiently coddle your whiddle fee fees.
There’s not a great conversation to be had with you. You tried to do a drive by here. I don’t buy your sincerity or sensibility. You haven’t made any case that you’re worth trying to engage with any further. Maybe you should have learned something before you barged in to casually drop a deuce on my adopted city.
I feel that you're frustrated, and I didn’t mean to dismiss your points. I’m here to engage, not shut down the conversation. We don’t see eye to eye on everything, but I’m genuinely interested in understanding the issues people face, especially those often overlooked.
I’m not parroting conservative talking points; I want a thoughtful discussion, and I think we can challenge each other to dig deeper into these topics as long as we can show each other respect and not ire.
Lol thanks for your answers Trail33. They were moreso hypothetical random questions at the top of my head to Javier because I presume they don’t know anything about women’s soccer, this Thorns roster, and is here in bad faith to argue about “Portland bad” because it looks like that’s what they spend a lot of their time doing (in looking at their substack activity.)
Giving them a chance to prove me wrong and show that they’re here in good faith to talk about women’s soccer, and this Thorns team, in particular. There are sooo many other places to go complain about Portland elsewhere (and looks like they already know where those places are.)
I know, but was hoping for discussion that doesn’t talk about how crappy it is to live in a city There are things about living in Portland that aren’t as good as they were a decade or two ago.
As a big Thorns fan, I’m really concerned about ensuring a safe environment for recruiting and retaining top talent. While I’m not a soccer expert, I do love taking my three daughters to games when I can. So that’s another reason I’m concerned about what’s happened to Portland. Anyway here’s a few possibilities.
Athens as backup 8: Athens could work, but Moultrie might be the preferred option for that role due to her established playmaking ability.
Formation switch: A 4-4-2 limits Coffey’s potential, a 4-3-3 might push Castellanos out of her best position, and a 4-2-3-1 could leave Sugita or Fleming underused on the wings.
Starting CB duo: Hiatt and Obaze seem like the likely pair, though depth could be an issue if Daiane doesn’t step up.
Goalkeeper: Bixby is the likely starter, though if there are issues with the goalie coach relationship, someone else might get a shot.
Hey Thornie….I just found a scouting report…Is this your astute carefully crafted handiwork? Scouting Report: Portland Thorns
Overview: The Portland Thorns are essentially the chosen ones of soccer—this isn’t just a team, it’s an otherworldly phenomenon. Every time they step on the field, they’re rewriting the very laws of physics. Forget tactics, forget strategy—the Thorns ARE the strategy. When Christine Sinclair touches the ball, it’s like the universe holds its breath, waiting for her to do something that literally no one else on earth could ever pull off. And don’t even get me started on Sophia Smith—I’m pretty sure she’s playing soccer at a higher dimension than the rest of us, like, I don’t know, a parallel universe where goals just appear because she thinks about them. The rest of the league is just there to watch Portland perform miracles on the pitch.
Defense: Oh my goodness. The Thorns’ defense doesn’t even defend the way normal teams do—they’re basically above defending. Becky Sauerbrunn doesn’t need to mark opponents; she just stares at them, and they instantly forget how to play soccer. That’s the kind of psychic energy she brings. Kelli Hubly? She doesn’t clear the ball. She summons the ball into another dimension. The forwards on the other team just stop and blink, unable to comprehend that the ball has disappeared into thin air. When Bella Bixby is in goal, there’s no need for saves. The ball just knows better than to approach her. If any ball dares to get close, she gives it a look, and it instantly retreats back to its own half. The Thorns’ defense doesn’t just stop goals—they psychologically intimidate them into not existing.
Midfield: Sam Coffey isn’t just a midfielder; she’s some sort of soccer sorceress who literally casts passes into the future, knowing exactly where her teammates will be three steps ahead. Time and space bend around her, and she can pass through defenders by merely thinking about the ball. Angela Salem doesn’t just win the ball—she summons it out of thin air, then redirects it into perfect through balls with no look passes that are so precise, they seem to pass through dimensions. Hina Sugita isn’t even playing soccer; she’s conducting the game with a mystical staff, calling forth perfect assists that defy every known law of physics. The midfield doesn’t control possession; they own it, like they’re the rulers of a vast empire of soccer.
Attack: The Thorns’ attack is the greatest display of offensive firepower that the world has ever witnessed. Sophia Smith doesn’t run with the ball; she teleports through defenders like a soccer-playing superhero. When she shoots, it’s as if the ball is drawn to the net by some magical force—gravity has no effect on her. Every time she lines up for a shot, the goalposts themselves move just to make room for her shots. Michaela Abam doesn’t need to dribble—she dances with the ball and hypnotizes defenders into believing they’re not allowed to tackle her. Meanwhile, Christine Sinclair doesn’t shoot; she bends the fabric of space-time and places the ball perfectly into the net, like she’s playing soccer in a dream world where everything goes her way.
Manager: Mike Norris is no ordinary coach—he’s actually a soccer prophet. I’m convinced he can predict the future. Every tactical shift he makes is somehow perfect, even if it doesn’t make sense. Need a goal? Mike Norris makes a substitution, and boom—two goals. Need to defend a lead? He just stares at the other team, and they forget how to attack. I’m pretty sure he’s unlocked the secret to soccer immortality, and it involves bending reality to his will. His strategy? Simple: “Let’s play a 7-1-2 formation. The other team won’t even know what hit them.” And guess what? It works. The Thorns don’t follow conventional strategies because they’re playing an entirely different game—one where they always win.
Conclusion: The Portland Thorns are not just a soccer team—they are the very embodiment of perfection on the field. The way they play soccer defies every known rule, every convention, every expectation. They don’t need tactics, they don’t need strategy—they just need to show up and let the magic happen. Watching them play is like witnessing a soccer game written in the stars. If you’re not in awe of what they’re doing, you’re not watching soccer. You’re watching history unfold in real-time.
Christ, Portland is still one of the safest major US cities. This is absurd. Y'all sound like cowards and clearly don't remember or weren't here before the 90s. Even acknowledging how crime has gotten relatively worse in the past few years, it generally isn't random and is usually in places the players wouldn't be, unless they're into clubbing in Chinatown. Furthermore, if people are going to criticize, they should at least address the root causes and propose actual solutions instead of just clutching their pearls, complaining, and making things worse by doing counterproductive things like hurting people even more.
For the record, it's in Hillsboro at a former Nike facility.
Nichola, It’s “one of the safest” so we shouldn’t care about the massive increase? I don’t get why Portland has so many crime apologists who like to say “but it used to be so much worse so let’s tolerate it”. Seems like we would want to improve it, not just live with the new status quo. Just a thought.
Respond to what I've actually said, not what you imagine or wish I said.
"Even acknowledging how crime has gotten relatively worse in the past few years, it generally isn't random and is usually in places the players wouldn't be, unless they're into clubbing in Chinatown. Furthermore, if people are going to criticize, they should at least address the root causes and propose actual solutions instead of just clutching their pearls, complaining, and making things worse by doing counterproductive things like hurting people even more."
Here are some ideas of things we can do:
1. Fund Portland street response.
2. Make public transportation free at the point of use and ubiquitous. People shouldn't have to go more than x# blocks (I'll leave it to experts to know exactly how many) to catch frequent service transit.
3. More express bus only lanes.
4. More bike lanes
5. Bury the MAX in many places so we can run more trains through tunnels and get rid of gridlock on bridges and downtown, where cars can't be added and trains not made longer because they must otherwise fit between traffic signals. This will also minimize weather-related disruptions, which are increasingly common given climate change.
6. Stop enforcing absentee ownership of property in some or all cases to prevent AirBnBs and landlords from leaving property vacant.
7. Institute a land value tax of some kind
8. Implement a universal basic income of some kind. Should probably be pegged to cost of living. A "minimum wage" was ALWAYS intended to be a living wage. Look at the language of the original laws. If flipping burgers is only supposed to be for school kids or the elderly, why are fast food places open during school or in the middle of the night?
9. Provide universal health care, including mental health and substance abuse treatment
10. Provide universal education at least through a bachelor's degree or skilled trade certification of some kind. Work with organizations to fund more advanced degrees, ongoing (re)training, etc.
11. Pursue avenues of restorative and transformative justice so criminals actually get rehabilitated, reducing the amount of recidivism and ongoing costs associated with prison
12. Outlaw prison labor
13. Reform 401Ks and other retirement plans to prevent financiers from taking undue risks with people's investments. There are any number of ways we should probably reform investing in general but I'm not an expert on this. My inclination is to withdraw privileges rather than creating new laws.
14. Build an alternative to policing beyond Portland Street Response. Yes, that ultimately means defunding Portland Police Bureau and allocating those resources to alternatives. Current PPB officers can apply for new jobs similar to or even the same as those that will be eliminated. They're going to have to be vetted better to make sure they aren't sociopaths, wife-beaters, racists, pick me minorities, etc.
15. Encourage people to take caregiver roles in nursing, counseling, public health, education, public safety, crime prevention, crime investigation, etc. by not treating them like garbage, paying them well, training them, supporting them, etc.
16. Eliminate loopholes that allow the super wealthy and corporations to avoid paying taxes, export jobs, offshore their money, etc.
17. Allow freedom of movement and punish actual crime, not the potential crime imagined to arise from where people are coming from or where they live.
Incidentally, police don't often prevent or solve crimes. They often make things worse. They often do nothing. I believe (someone can check the facts on this) that they take in more revenue in civil asset forfeiture than crimes like burglary, theft, shoplifting, etc. cost society. Maybe it's only one of those categories. I'm not doing your homework for you. Look up how many untested rape kits different places have. Check out clearance rates and compare those to the actual number of convictions, factor in recidivism, etc.
It's actually cheaper to be proactive and help people than it is to simply punish them. We want people to contribute to society, not just be de facto slave labor.
Check out the Marshall Project for a wealth of information on the criminal justice system. There are academic articles, news reports, studies, a ton of evidence.
It occurs to me that you probably can't infer what the positive impacts of a lot of these suggestions will be, so please ask if it isn't clear to you what result I expect to come of them.
Other considerations with respect to lowering rents and housing costs:
Zoning reform to allow more mixed use developments so light industrial, manufacturing, retail can better coexist with residential buildings.
Streamline permitting to make development more efficient and cheap.
Standardize permitting, licensing, zoning, etc. requirements so they are easier to understand, more consistent, and can all be acquired in fewer steps and locations.
Encourage more high density and multi-use buildings so people don't have to travel as far, or at all, for work. Improving public transit reduces the need for parking. Parking lots and garages are a lot of wasted space and cause a lot of problems. More people using public transit is safer in many ways. More people out and about on the streets going to businesses and parks means more eyes which means more safety. Jane Jacobs talks about these things.
It's problematic to try to reduce the cost of housing when our society necessitates the ownership of property as an investment, as part of people's retirement plans, and as long as cities rely on property tax revenues to fund essential services, like education. We need to change how we approach paying for such things so we don't create perverse incentives to monetize and profit from shelter.
Nike "So Win" ad: You can't spell Sophia Wilson without it.
I think this might be our new Soph tifo, and maybe her new nickname too.
Yay! Soph in a Super Bowl ad.
I only turned it on out of morbid curiosity about the “bug” everyone is complaining about.
https://x.com/nike/status/1888761352757600538?s=46
Will wager the song royalties were as expensive as the shoot. Great spot, way to go, Nike.
Wow our Soph! Thanks for posting that.
Wish we could post photos here, but a reason to say "awwe" is Sarah Lowden posted a picture of her and Broon getting coffee this morning. Glad they are keeping in touch with Becky. Hopefully offering her a job. :)
I would love to see Sauerbrunn, Sinclair, or Kling get that last assistant position. Frankly, I’d be open to funding either of their coaching licenses if they doesn’t have one if I were Argoos.
'Tis a shame (in two ways) Ang Salem isn't available, given she's coaching at Bay. Her working with the midfield could be a good thing for Thorns.
"Becky for the Defense" would be both a good teevee series title and a meaningful role for Thorns.
Our latest discussion post has found it's way down the list so I'm just posting here for Thorns news now because it's the newest!
Anyways...Thorns Sighting!
Just saw Jessie Fleming with (and I'm like 90% sure) Olivia Athens walking around at the PSU farmers market. Makes sense, they do have UCLA ties. Gotta be the 7th or so Thorn I've seen at the market in the last year.
Anyways...Olivia Athens was let go from Seattle Reign during the offseason and is a free agent. She's a midfielder who isn't from the PNW (but, from CA.) Not sure why else she'd be in Portland, but if I were a betting gal, we've picked her up. For those who used to watch a lot of college soccer, does Athens play as more of an 8 or a pure 10? I seem to kinda remember her as a 10 or in a more attacking role, and I think that's where Harvey deployed her as well...but I can't quite remember. If she's a pure 10....well, that would be def unnecessary considering we have a glut of those already when we don't play with one. But, we do still need coverage in other areas of midfield if she's got some defensive chops.
Our group wound up volunteering alongside Jeff Agoos the other day at the food bank. Nothing really to take away from it, we left him in peace since it wasn’t the time or the place to bug someone, but kind of like when we caught the same train as KK and her family going up to watch the Seattle match last year, just one of those fun moments of it still being a smaller city, public figures stand out.
Cool he’s already making time to volunteer after being here for such a short time.
That train ride is still one of my favorites for an afternoon mariners game. Catch the 6:45am and get to Seattle a little after 10. Take the 5:40 or 7:50pm train home depending on whether you want to spend some time in downtown Seattle.
Need to do the Portland to Bellingham again. It’s pretty.
I'm pretty sure there's just a picture of Olivia Athens when you look up "roster filler" in the dictionary, but she is a better backup 8 than anything we have.
Well yeah I wasn't expecting any real excitement with a backup 8 lol. But I wasn't sure if she was an 8 or more of a 10. We very much needed a backup 8 because, well, we don't have any? Lol. Hirst (6), Athens (8) and OWK (6/10) would be the deep bench/backups in mf. Give her a year and see how she does.
Pretty cool. For a mid she was clutch. Sr season:
"Earned second-team All-Pacific-Region and All-Pac-12 honors … Played and started 19 games … Ranked third on the team in scoring with four goals and 10 points … Scored the game-winning goal in overtime to beat ASU … Netted the game-winner against USC, her third career goal and second game-winner against the Trojans … Totaled one goal and one assist in the wins over CSUN and Oregon State … Both assists were on game-winners."
Think this is sophomore year highlights.
https://youtu.be/q3xjMFwB-aM?si=VZLlvLDB3LvbhELZ
Can she play 6/8? Or she predominantly more of an attacking midfielder?
Can't get any of the UCLA summary vids to play but maybe there are full game vids somewhere? Guess attacking mid, as her sr year she took 26 shots. Something I hadn't considered is Reilyn Turner was a teammate.
All of a sudden UCLA very well represented up here.
It does seem like we already have too many midfielders? We have: Fleming (8/10), Moultrie (8/10), Wade-Katoa (10), Todin (9/10), Coffey (6/8/10), Hina (8/10?), Hirst (6), Castellanos (9, 10), McKenzie (8)... I may be a little off and obviously not all of them are starters at their nominal position. 6 still seems like the place where we have the least depth in midfield, 10 the most. I don't know Olivia Athens at all, though I may have seen her play for Seattle if she was ever in the lineup against us. Maybe she's a depth upgrade over Wade-Katoa, Hirst, or McKenzie? I don't think we have too many more roster spots available?
I would say neither Mallie or Tordin are actually midfielders (McKenzie in particular has played pretty exclusively at CB or wingback when she's gotten minutes), Castellanos is probably going to play on the wing, and Wade-Katoa is still injured. They would have 22 active players + OWK on the SEI if they signed Athens, so still four spots to fill if they're so inclined.
We have a lot of hybrid 8/10 types, but Athens has been more of a defensive 8 in the pros which is where our gap is. Here's her fbref: https://fbref.com/en/players/0b22aae8/scout/365_f1/Olivia-Athens-Scouting-Report
"I may be a little off and obviously not all of them are starters at their nominal position." I was trying to cover myself lol
I was including players than can or have played in some positions before and are nominally midfielders. I forgot that Wade-Katoa is injured and on the SEI list.
My chart, excluding Wade-Katoa, is basically:
10 - Moultrie, Fleming, Hina, Castellanos, Tordin, Coffey
8 - Fleming, Hina, Coffey, McKenzie
6 - Coffey, Hirst
From that perspective, I can see how we are still a little thin at more defensive 8s, especially if McKenzie is being converted to CB. That makes me feel slightly better about center back depth though.
There are too many players I haven't seen enough of yet.
Edit: I am encouraged by Athens' scouting report.
Tordin played most upfront in a striker role for Princeton, but she has good dribbling skills and her passing statistics were better than most. Her Xg and Xa are impressive if not inflated by her league.
McKenzie ended her career at Georgia as a FB.
Castellanos is being brought here as an inverted forward. If she plays the 10, I believe it is because we’ve transitioned to a 4-4-2 and we’d need bodies if we did that.
Athens would be a decent depth signing. Then again, she could have just been in town visiting friends or living with friends while she figures her next career step.
Some of those players don't play in midfield though (McKenzie- more of a FB/CB/WB), Tordin (more of a striker/false 9), and Deyna is listed as a F (or would be a 10.) We do still need a backup 8...Hirst is Sam's backup. OWK played a 6 in college for 3 years, but then as an attacking mid her senior year when she was pretty prolific (and I think what we signed her for.) Like kielbj mentioned, we have several hybrid 8/10 players but having a clearly defensive/box-to-box 8 in a backup role is still a need for this roster.
See my reply to kielbj above. I've debated Deyna elsewhere. I know how she's listed but I also know where she said she prefers to play, so I'm playing wait and see and splitting the difference. I didn't listen to the whole roster, just plays who *can* play certain midfield positions. I didn't know/remember about OWK having played as a 6. Sound like she's out for the season anyway, but her versatility may be a plus in the future.
I think OWK will actually be off of it soon. She's been in training and her knee injury wasn't an ACL. It was just considered an SEI because it was at the end of the season. But, I think she could be fine come the start of the season or shortly after. But yeah, she did play DM in college, but it's been a while. So we do have coverage at the 6 behind Sam (although I wish it were better *quality*) and we have plenty of attacking mids. But, I think we only have 2 players capable of playing as a true 8 (Fleming and Hina), so having at least 1 depth player behind them is good/needed imo. Yes, Sam could play an 8, but she will always be in the 6 if she's on the field. And yeah again, McKenzie certainly isn't an 8, nor is she even a mf. She played on the wing and then I think once at CB at the very end of a game because of an injury.
Good to know about OWK.
Sounds like McKenzie could play and maybe has played as a defensive 8 before but it also that it would probably be best to consider her center back, fullback, or wingback depth. By the time we get to our third choice 8, I'd be worried anyway, but we're thin somewhere too.
Differentiating defensive vs offensive 8s, thinking about what players' true positions are, and knowing how much space we still have gives me a better sense of the need for another defensive 8. Athens' passing is statically good but it doesn't look like she's great in progression/carries. Defensive stats also pretty solid, so a ball winner who can restart an attack. I'll allow it.
I think McKenzie did play a little at DM in college, but I'm not sure about the 8. I think she was also a winger lol. But I don't recall seeing her in midfield at all here. She seems kinda like a swiss army knife type player though! Always nice to have at least one. Athens probably wouldn't see the field a ton, but I do like that she's always been an excellent passer. Dropped balls in mf have been a dagger to this team in recent years. So long as she can just be safe and steady...that's nice to wrap up a game with.
Good work!! I wonder if she’d take up an int spot
CA as in California lol, not Canada. No int'l spot needed.
Also just went and looked at her IG and she follows the Thorns now. If she can play in central midfield, I'd say it's likely. Imo it's a better plan than that college 8 we were initially linked to who would cost an int'l spot. Maybe they're trying to keep that open because they have a target in mind, or want flexibility in the summer.
3 mf's named Olivia would be funny.
Oh THAT CA!
Three MF-ing Olivias!
I think that everytime I write mf when I mean midfielder lol. Always in a Samuel L. Jackson voice.
I think I need to get a kit that says BAD MFER
When Runner Girl was still Soccer Girl she was on a team with three Sophies, which gave coach fits when they were on the field at the same time.
she's American
Menlo-Atherton High School is kind of another planet, but 'Murcan anyway.
Reminder that Substack gives us the ability to "mute" or "block" specific users, which would be an easy fix if, say, a troll appeared to try to foul the vibe...
I'm gonna be SERIOUSLY pissed if I find out that "Javier" is Nicholas Garner's burner account for hosting a dialogue with an imagined interlocutor.
Nicholas did mention Sartre, after all.
Lots a philosophes have used such a device. Here it's Javier : Glaucon :: Nicholas : Socrates
(just kidding - trying to lighten the mood of the board. as everybody around here already knows, I'm a "midgaret" in the Norwegian style)
Ever since Bill & Ted I only hear that as So-crates in my noggin.
Preach, Tobin! Preach!
https://www.instagram.com/re__inc/reel/DGA8aIUsIcC/
Adaptability in coaching, Nighswonger edition.
https://x.com/EmilyHerbertUK/status/1888639576597533005
Wonder what that's like?
Oh, I think we know what that's like. We've had full years of Norrisey and Kenbo playing people out of position.
It's true and sadly not in a "let's experiment" or "this isn't working right now, switch!" way.
Wonder if that helps or hurts her national team chances?
Presuming she takes to the new position it can only help. Guessing Hayes appreciates demonstrable positional flexibility, especially when the big tournaments arrive.
Was just noticing how much the new Chicago Stars crest looks like the old NWSL league crest.
Was also reminded of this: the NASL featured Pele, Best, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Chinaglia and Wegerle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_Soccer_League_(1968%E2%80%931984)_players
Hey everybody, look at the Thorns content that's available for free over here!
https://www.allforxi.com/2025/2/6/24360169/raj-sports-announce-150-million-state-of-the-art-portland-thorns-and-portland-wnba-training-facility
https://www.allforxi.com/2025/2/10/24362649/sophia-wilson-smith-in-nikes-first-super-bowl-ad-in-27-years-nwsl-portland-thorns-baonpdx-uswnt-ptfc
https://www.allforxi.com/2025/1/24/24350883/deyna-castellanos-signs-with-portland-thorns-after-parting-ways-with-bay-fc-to-become-free-agent
I thought you had to pay to get this kind of coverage. Nope! Heck, you can even comment for free too!
SBNation. Stumptown Footy. All sounds familiar somehow...
Who kicks into my Go Fund Me to help me get a Javier 00 kit?
Let the troll RIP.
I want to get a 2024 primary kit with BADMFER as the name. What number goes with that?
666
Not quite on par with Muhammad Ali, but she stood her ground and won in court. Good for Sam!
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/feb/11/sam-kerr-found-not-guilty-of-racially-aggravated-harassment-of-police-officer-ntwnfb
The video isn't a good look.
https://youtu.be/hed7Ih58uN8
WTF? We live in really odd times. How can she think this is acceptable?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/33300839/barcelona-mapi-leon-espanyol-daniela-caracas-football-gesture-comment/amp/
Famous Leons, Ranked:
Leon Russell
Leon Redbone
Leon Spinks
Leon "Bull" Durham
Adriana Leon
Sugar Ray Leon(ard)
Leon(ard) Cohen
Le(o)na Horne
Leon Jaworski
Leon Panetta
Kings of Leon
Leon Restaurants (UK fast food chain)
Ponce de Leon
Leon(a) Helmsley
Leon Trotsky
Leon(id) Breznev
...
...
Mapi Leon, Javier (tie)
Europe does a lot of things better than the US in general, but racism and transphobia even among the more liberal leaning white Europeans is, I would say, far more normalized and accepted than it is in the same sort of spaces here.
We are catching up quickly
Good god. Given everything else haunting women's Futbol Espania they need this nonsense like a bunch of cranial drains.
I love her as a player and have long wanted her stateside. Not so much now. I realize there is controversy on this, but it is frightening how out in the open this type of behavior is now.
I wonder if leagues have a policy when this is in question. I’d be mortified if a player on our team did that
Her response
https://x.com/barcafem/status/1889054544320942406?s=46
Interesting. I wish we had more gun laws in Portland…or at the very least enforce the ones we do have.
Will it be located in Portland or the safer suburbs such as Beaverton?
The important thing is that you’ve found a new Substack to troll. Welcome!
I almost didn't make it to brunch dodging all those bullets!
I know, I had trouble leaving the house when I saw a building tagged with the word “VEGAN”
Thank you. Not trolling though. It’s just tough for some Portlanders to hear a diversity of opinions.
Okay, here's a diversity of opinion:
Naomi Girma went to Chelsea because she felt safer with the UK's more strict gun laws.
More diversity of opinions: I haven't stopped giggling about that whole "Midgaret" thing since you wrote it last week.
You don't have anything new or interesting to say. Your opinion isn't diverse. It's boilerplate. It's the same ignorant take that chuckleheads parrot all over the comments section of OregonLive. It isn't insightful or helpful.
You want diversity of opinion? Try asking Black women, immigrants, LGBTQIA+ people, the houseless, refugees, foreigners, and others who don't have their voices heard and faces seen all over mainstream media all the time.
Every accusation is a confession. Conservatives talk about playing victim, special privileges, etc. but always look for some excuse to feel oppressed and don't say shit about things like legacy admissions to Ivy League schools, interning at a company owned by a friend of their father, going into the family business, inheriting the family home, etc. Hypocrites.
Thanks for the passionate reply, Nicholas. It’s always good to hear that I’m not the only one who thinks about these issues—though perhaps a bit more nuance could go a long way. I see your point about diversifying perspectives, but it feels like you’re dismissing different viewpoints as if they’re all the same, which doesn’t really help the conversation. People can be critical of Portland's direction and still care deeply about those who are often overlooked. It’s not about ‘playing victim,’ but about finding solutions to actual issues, not simply shouting down anyone who dares to ask questions. Also, would love to hear more from you on legacy admissions—seems like an odd tangent but could be a great conversation starter.
“A bit more nuance?” Go revisit your original comment and initial reply to me.
“…dismissing different viewpoints.” No, just yours. I gave you a lengthy list of different perspectives you might tune into.
“….finding solutions to actual issues…” Poverty, trauma, mental health, ignorance, disability, lack of access to education and heath care, etc. are root causes of issues. The “solutions” that many, most, but admittedly not all people who share your tone propose exacerbate rather than ameliorate those problems.
“…shouting down…” Dude, I didn’t even resort to all caps. You mischaracterized what I said. You set the tone. Or did you not mean to be snarky and throw shade when you casually threw an entire city under the bus as if everywhere in town is as unsafe as the worst time and place to be.
Start by asking actual questions next time instead of a rhetorical question meant to throw shade, which is especially galling when now you’re trying to feign civility and DARVO this so I’m the baddy because I didn’t sufficiently coddle your whiddle fee fees.
There’s not a great conversation to be had with you. You tried to do a drive by here. I don’t buy your sincerity or sensibility. You haven’t made any case that you’re worth trying to engage with any further. Maybe you should have learned something before you barged in to casually drop a deuce on my adopted city.
I feel that you're frustrated, and I didn’t mean to dismiss your points. I’m here to engage, not shut down the conversation. We don’t see eye to eye on everything, but I’m genuinely interested in understanding the issues people face, especially those often overlooked.
I’m not parroting conservative talking points; I want a thoughtful discussion, and I think we can challenge each other to dig deeper into these topics as long as we can show each other respect and not ire.
Me, I like shallots and chives.
Oh, wait, I thought you said "diversity of onions."
Why discriminate? It’s time to open your mind, heart and mouth to all Alliums.
Let's not do the intensely lame and mostly BS Portland catastrophizing thing here please.
Wherever the most Cybertrucks are; that's what you gotta avoid. Guessing Lake Oswego.
ETA I have a crime story. Local church was burgled and set afire last night. The name: Casa Fuego de Dios Church
A buddy of mine did get gently rear-ended by a cybertruck in the parking lot of the LO Burgerville not too long ago
So you prefer to bury your head in the sand?
If you’re interested here is some data: https://www.portland.gov/omf/documents/2022-pdx-problem-analysis/download
Go away
Why so intolerant Brian? Love and acceptance conquers all.
Javier, what I really wanna know is what you think about the possibility of Olivia Athens playing as a backup 8 with this roster?
What do you think about a switch from a 433 to a 442? What about a 4231?
In your opinion, who is the starting CB duo for this season?
What about GK? Who do you think will start the season?
Not trying to answer for the dangers of living near a metro area in this country, but here are some answers
1. Athens would be a good backup 8, but I assume they’d play Moultrie before her.
2. All formations have a player doing something that might not be their best role overall.
The 4-4-2 limits Coffey.
The 4-3-3 probably means that Castellanos is playing as inverted wing.
The 4-2-3-1 likely plays Sugita or Fleming in outside role.
3. I think it’s Hiatt and Obaze. I’m concerned about the depth unless they believe Daiane is solid.
4. I’d like to think Bixby, but considering the relationship with between the goalie coach and Arnold, my guess is it is Arnold
Lol thanks for your answers Trail33. They were moreso hypothetical random questions at the top of my head to Javier because I presume they don’t know anything about women’s soccer, this Thorns roster, and is here in bad faith to argue about “Portland bad” because it looks like that’s what they spend a lot of their time doing (in looking at their substack activity.)
Giving them a chance to prove me wrong and show that they’re here in good faith to talk about women’s soccer, and this Thorns team, in particular. There are sooo many other places to go complain about Portland elsewhere (and looks like they already know where those places are.)
I know, but was hoping for discussion that doesn’t talk about how crappy it is to live in a city There are things about living in Portland that aren’t as good as they were a decade or two ago.
As a big Thorns fan, I’m really concerned about ensuring a safe environment for recruiting and retaining top talent. While I’m not a soccer expert, I do love taking my three daughters to games when I can. So that’s another reason I’m concerned about what’s happened to Portland. Anyway here’s a few possibilities.
Athens as backup 8: Athens could work, but Moultrie might be the preferred option for that role due to her established playmaking ability.
Formation switch: A 4-4-2 limits Coffey’s potential, a 4-3-3 might push Castellanos out of her best position, and a 4-2-3-1 could leave Sugita or Fleming underused on the wings.
Starting CB duo: Hiatt and Obaze seem like the likely pair, though depth could be an issue if Daiane doesn’t step up.
Goalkeeper: Bixby is the likely starter, though if there are issues with the goalie coach relationship, someone else might get a shot.
I was gonna report this for trolling, but then I realized it was just a hackneyed take. You do you. We'll go around you.
Hey Thornie….I just found a scouting report…Is this your astute carefully crafted handiwork? Scouting Report: Portland Thorns
Overview: The Portland Thorns are essentially the chosen ones of soccer—this isn’t just a team, it’s an otherworldly phenomenon. Every time they step on the field, they’re rewriting the very laws of physics. Forget tactics, forget strategy—the Thorns ARE the strategy. When Christine Sinclair touches the ball, it’s like the universe holds its breath, waiting for her to do something that literally no one else on earth could ever pull off. And don’t even get me started on Sophia Smith—I’m pretty sure she’s playing soccer at a higher dimension than the rest of us, like, I don’t know, a parallel universe where goals just appear because she thinks about them. The rest of the league is just there to watch Portland perform miracles on the pitch.
Defense: Oh my goodness. The Thorns’ defense doesn’t even defend the way normal teams do—they’re basically above defending. Becky Sauerbrunn doesn’t need to mark opponents; she just stares at them, and they instantly forget how to play soccer. That’s the kind of psychic energy she brings. Kelli Hubly? She doesn’t clear the ball. She summons the ball into another dimension. The forwards on the other team just stop and blink, unable to comprehend that the ball has disappeared into thin air. When Bella Bixby is in goal, there’s no need for saves. The ball just knows better than to approach her. If any ball dares to get close, she gives it a look, and it instantly retreats back to its own half. The Thorns’ defense doesn’t just stop goals—they psychologically intimidate them into not existing.
Midfield: Sam Coffey isn’t just a midfielder; she’s some sort of soccer sorceress who literally casts passes into the future, knowing exactly where her teammates will be three steps ahead. Time and space bend around her, and she can pass through defenders by merely thinking about the ball. Angela Salem doesn’t just win the ball—she summons it out of thin air, then redirects it into perfect through balls with no look passes that are so precise, they seem to pass through dimensions. Hina Sugita isn’t even playing soccer; she’s conducting the game with a mystical staff, calling forth perfect assists that defy every known law of physics. The midfield doesn’t control possession; they own it, like they’re the rulers of a vast empire of soccer.
Attack: The Thorns’ attack is the greatest display of offensive firepower that the world has ever witnessed. Sophia Smith doesn’t run with the ball; she teleports through defenders like a soccer-playing superhero. When she shoots, it’s as if the ball is drawn to the net by some magical force—gravity has no effect on her. Every time she lines up for a shot, the goalposts themselves move just to make room for her shots. Michaela Abam doesn’t need to dribble—she dances with the ball and hypnotizes defenders into believing they’re not allowed to tackle her. Meanwhile, Christine Sinclair doesn’t shoot; she bends the fabric of space-time and places the ball perfectly into the net, like she’s playing soccer in a dream world where everything goes her way.
Manager: Mike Norris is no ordinary coach—he’s actually a soccer prophet. I’m convinced he can predict the future. Every tactical shift he makes is somehow perfect, even if it doesn’t make sense. Need a goal? Mike Norris makes a substitution, and boom—two goals. Need to defend a lead? He just stares at the other team, and they forget how to attack. I’m pretty sure he’s unlocked the secret to soccer immortality, and it involves bending reality to his will. His strategy? Simple: “Let’s play a 7-1-2 formation. The other team won’t even know what hit them.” And guess what? It works. The Thorns don’t follow conventional strategies because they’re playing an entirely different game—one where they always win.
Conclusion: The Portland Thorns are not just a soccer team—they are the very embodiment of perfection on the field. The way they play soccer defies every known rule, every convention, every expectation. They don’t need tactics, they don’t need strategy—they just need to show up and let the magic happen. Watching them play is like witnessing a soccer game written in the stars. If you’re not in awe of what they’re doing, you’re not watching soccer. You’re watching history unfold in real-time.
Christ, Portland is still one of the safest major US cities. This is absurd. Y'all sound like cowards and clearly don't remember or weren't here before the 90s. Even acknowledging how crime has gotten relatively worse in the past few years, it generally isn't random and is usually in places the players wouldn't be, unless they're into clubbing in Chinatown. Furthermore, if people are going to criticize, they should at least address the root causes and propose actual solutions instead of just clutching their pearls, complaining, and making things worse by doing counterproductive things like hurting people even more.
For the record, it's in Hillsboro at a former Nike facility.
Nichola, It’s “one of the safest” so we shouldn’t care about the massive increase? I don’t get why Portland has so many crime apologists who like to say “but it used to be so much worse so let’s tolerate it”. Seems like we would want to improve it, not just live with the new status quo. Just a thought.
https://www.axios.com/local/portland/2023/10/30/oregon-crime-data-statistics-violent-police-shortage
Sir, this is a Wendy’s…
Respond to what I've actually said, not what you imagine or wish I said.
"Even acknowledging how crime has gotten relatively worse in the past few years, it generally isn't random and is usually in places the players wouldn't be, unless they're into clubbing in Chinatown. Furthermore, if people are going to criticize, they should at least address the root causes and propose actual solutions instead of just clutching their pearls, complaining, and making things worse by doing counterproductive things like hurting people even more."
Here are some ideas of things we can do:
1. Fund Portland street response.
2. Make public transportation free at the point of use and ubiquitous. People shouldn't have to go more than x# blocks (I'll leave it to experts to know exactly how many) to catch frequent service transit.
3. More express bus only lanes.
4. More bike lanes
5. Bury the MAX in many places so we can run more trains through tunnels and get rid of gridlock on bridges and downtown, where cars can't be added and trains not made longer because they must otherwise fit between traffic signals. This will also minimize weather-related disruptions, which are increasingly common given climate change.
6. Stop enforcing absentee ownership of property in some or all cases to prevent AirBnBs and landlords from leaving property vacant.
7. Institute a land value tax of some kind
8. Implement a universal basic income of some kind. Should probably be pegged to cost of living. A "minimum wage" was ALWAYS intended to be a living wage. Look at the language of the original laws. If flipping burgers is only supposed to be for school kids or the elderly, why are fast food places open during school or in the middle of the night?
9. Provide universal health care, including mental health and substance abuse treatment
10. Provide universal education at least through a bachelor's degree or skilled trade certification of some kind. Work with organizations to fund more advanced degrees, ongoing (re)training, etc.
11. Pursue avenues of restorative and transformative justice so criminals actually get rehabilitated, reducing the amount of recidivism and ongoing costs associated with prison
12. Outlaw prison labor
13. Reform 401Ks and other retirement plans to prevent financiers from taking undue risks with people's investments. There are any number of ways we should probably reform investing in general but I'm not an expert on this. My inclination is to withdraw privileges rather than creating new laws.
14. Build an alternative to policing beyond Portland Street Response. Yes, that ultimately means defunding Portland Police Bureau and allocating those resources to alternatives. Current PPB officers can apply for new jobs similar to or even the same as those that will be eliminated. They're going to have to be vetted better to make sure they aren't sociopaths, wife-beaters, racists, pick me minorities, etc.
15. Encourage people to take caregiver roles in nursing, counseling, public health, education, public safety, crime prevention, crime investigation, etc. by not treating them like garbage, paying them well, training them, supporting them, etc.
16. Eliminate loopholes that allow the super wealthy and corporations to avoid paying taxes, export jobs, offshore their money, etc.
17. Allow freedom of movement and punish actual crime, not the potential crime imagined to arise from where people are coming from or where they live.
Incidentally, police don't often prevent or solve crimes. They often make things worse. They often do nothing. I believe (someone can check the facts on this) that they take in more revenue in civil asset forfeiture than crimes like burglary, theft, shoplifting, etc. cost society. Maybe it's only one of those categories. I'm not doing your homework for you. Look up how many untested rape kits different places have. Check out clearance rates and compare those to the actual number of convictions, factor in recidivism, etc.
It's actually cheaper to be proactive and help people than it is to simply punish them. We want people to contribute to society, not just be de facto slave labor.
Check out the Marshall Project for a wealth of information on the criminal justice system. There are academic articles, news reports, studies, a ton of evidence.
Care like we do.
It occurs to me that you probably can't infer what the positive impacts of a lot of these suggestions will be, so please ask if it isn't clear to you what result I expect to come of them.
Other considerations with respect to lowering rents and housing costs:
Zoning reform to allow more mixed use developments so light industrial, manufacturing, retail can better coexist with residential buildings.
Streamline permitting to make development more efficient and cheap.
Standardize permitting, licensing, zoning, etc. requirements so they are easier to understand, more consistent, and can all be acquired in fewer steps and locations.
Oh, prevent landlords and property management companies from de facto colluding on pricing through use of software like RealPage. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-realpage-algorithmic-pricing-scheme-harms-millions-american-renters
Encourage more high density and multi-use buildings so people don't have to travel as far, or at all, for work. Improving public transit reduces the need for parking. Parking lots and garages are a lot of wasted space and cause a lot of problems. More people using public transit is safer in many ways. More people out and about on the streets going to businesses and parks means more eyes which means more safety. Jane Jacobs talks about these things.
It's problematic to try to reduce the cost of housing when our society necessitates the ownership of property as an investment, as part of people's retirement plans, and as long as cities rely on property tax revenues to fund essential services, like education. We need to change how we approach paying for such things so we don't create perverse incentives to monetize and profit from shelter.