Really gotta get this one in Louisville- Feels like a must win given these absences, Soph’s injury, and the brutal end of season schedule. Louisville’s an underrated side, but there are maassssive gaps in their usual 11. Norris can’t afford to fuck around and not start Hina and Crystal Saturday.
God would it be have been awesome if we had taken Messiah Bright. I was happy with Izzy on draft day, but happily would have taken Bright as well- just a completely different athletic and skill profile and she’s crushing it. Happy she’s at Orlando where she can start full time.
I was happy with Izzy too, but in hindsight, Messiah Bright was such a better fit for the Thorns. I thought maybe getting a player with aerial prowess was a real win for a team lacking, but her inability to adapt to our type of play (or the speed of the league) has been super disappointing. The type of 9 she is fits better with Hatch and Morgan-type systems. I don’t know her full capabilities yet, but she seems to lack the ability to play-make (and her first touch is stone) and just wants a ball in behind or crossed into her head and that’s just not how we play. Bright definitely would have fit much more seamlessly. But yeah, she would’ve really been hurting for minutes here, or would’ve been asked to play wide out of position.
I really would not be surprised to see Izzy go during the expansion draft. She went to Santa Clara and I’ve heard Aly Wagner talk so much about her on numerous occasions and how much she loves her play (Wagner also was a SC Bronco.) Wouldn’t be surprised if Bay FC had their eyes on her for selection or a possible deal. Same with Tegan McGrady, who is from San Jose and has expressed a want to eventually play back in her hometown (and doesn’t play here.)
Speaking of other NWSL players I wish we had…do you have a top 5 of gettable players you love to see at the Thorns? Like obvs not Debinha or players like her that would impossible to acquire…but maybe rookies, newbs, lesser knows? Would be curious to see everyone pick like 1-2 from each team.
Yeah I think the optimistic view -- which I share to a certain extent-- is that the current squad is (somehow) still good enough IF the main three and Soph are re-signed and Becky plays another year. Everything is linked though, so who knows what those three are thinking. At some point the club has to show some ambition, but it’s remarkable how well the roster was built in the Parsons era lol.
But yeah...even Racing got out there with the Pickett/Erceg trade and have managed to extend Demelo. Oddly enough, I’d say Seattle have been standing pat about as much as the the Thorns- They added Sonnett and Bennett but nothing through the draft....and now they’re on the edge of the playoffs with ACFC charging.
Player wise? There's a definite lack of good CBs in NWSL (why I've defended Hubly), but there's some wing options I'd take:
- Milliet, Ally Watt, Iffy (or whatever Gotham attacker is inevitably left out), Gareis (really, really like her), Salmon (still mostly riding the bench), Ella Stevens, Charley (hard to see a place for her in LA), Speckmaier.
Phuoc IIRC is high on Izzy's future, having watched her a good deal at practice and such, but she's clearly not gelled during games yet. I'd be careful about tossing out the forward with the bathwater just yet.
I was vociferously on Team Hocking and boggled at the Reyes selection, but she's proven quite the catch and I've stopped pondering the impact of Penelope's scoring chops in a Thorns uni. With the way she's rounding into form, Nighswonger could yet be the cream of the 2023 crop (sooo close at #4). OTOH I look at some of the other rounds 1 & 2 names and wonder where they even are now?
Yeah one of the reasons I was pro-Reyes (aside from her being an awesome prospect at a position of need) is because it’s rare that non-elite attacking college players make a difference in the NWSL....it’s why Bright vs. Izzy is somewhat frustrating in hindsight: Sometimes you just have to have an upside shot, and Bright had those potentially elite traits in a way Izzy very much does not. It’s the same reason why many of us are clamoring for more Betfort time: She’s fast and strong, so she at least has a basis for success.
Now, I’m not necessarily dismissing Izzy (I don’t think she’s been given a fair shake position-wise), but it’s crucial to note that even mildly successful NWSL strikers *need to have at least one elite elite trait* and usually those are pace or skill related. Izzy’s was finishing and positioning in college.... and that’s just an extremely narrow beam to be able to walk in NWSL and still find success. It’s kinda Bethany Balcer and no one else in that archetype.
I wonder if ACFC knew this was a farce when they signed her- she just wanted to play for the national team, but Vlatko told her she had to play for a club, so she signed, played one game, then got "hurt" to rest up for the WWC, then retired. If i were an ACFC fan, i don't think i'd be an Ertz fan. I won't miss the many old-guard USWNT'ers practically-open disrespect for their NWSL clubs...
Was thinking the same thing. I’m sure she knew that she’d be done after the WC regardless but needed to get some club minutes to justify the call up. Still would have thought she’d play out the season especially given ACFC is playing well, but I guess not.
Tbf, she did play seven matches at 82 minutes/match...so it’s not like she just played a game and then took off.
Yeah, I think if Ertz had said to most clubs in the league, "Want me to play a few games for you, even if I don't finish out the season?", the answer would have been a resounding "Yes please!". Not necessarily the Thorns, because Sam Coffey, but even here having Ertz might have freed up Coffey to use her passing skills farther forward. And for most other teams it would be a no-brainer.
Feel similarly, and guess her contract was priced accordingly.
Big Julie fan and am glad she retires having completed the comeback from the double-whammy of injury then momhood. Her last USWNT game was the Olympics bronze match, prior to her 2023 return.
Hard to name another player who works harder and as effectively as peak Julie.
The Thorns are probably being intentionally vague for two reasons:
1. It leaves pressure off of Smith. If you say she's out for 4-6 weeks and it turns out to be 6-8 you get all kind of "did she have a setback" etc questions
2. Your opponent for the week (okay probably not Louisville) has to think...well what if Smith is available?
Yeah exactly my thinking about "week-to-week". Teams keep player availability info as secret as they can just so the opposition can't gain an edge, however small. Sauerbrunn is "week-to-week", isn't she? And has been for weeks and weeks?
Yeah seriously, Laura Harvey is the queen of secretive injury roster gatekeeping to the point where it’s almost funny to see how she obfuscates about injury questions in pre-match pressers.
That would be damn effective, I'd say. But I'd prefer a Weaver - Betfort - Dunn front line with Hina at the #10. Even w/o Soph, that attack could score on any team in the world.
Sprains are graded I (minor), II (moderate), and III (severe).
What they're describing is a moderate sprain (aka partial ligament tear)., because that's what fits a week-to-week timeline.
What might actually be the case is that she's had a severe sprain (aka total ligament rupture) but not letting on that that's the situation. I hope not, but such roster gamesmanship is not out of the question. They're always going to wait as late in the week as possible to announce whether she's on the matchday roster.
I don't think we see her for the rest of the regular season. Perhaps we'll see her for the playoffs. I laid out a possible timeline above.
My uneducated guess is between 1 and 2 based on the timeline. Usually if it is 3, there is a discussion of surgery to quicken the recovery (though I don’t think any athlete should do this path).
Chicago sale complete- Add another team to the rapidly growing list of clubs (ACFC, Washingon, KC, SD, Gotham, and Chicago at a minimum) that will likely be more ambitious and aggressive than the Thorns this offseason. Really can't overstate the importance of Portland's wrapping up before 2024.
On point 3: we simply _must_ have a high-end young CB signing. While Menges seems fully recovered and has good football to give still, Becky is very probably gone at season's end and Hubly, wonderful teammate and person though she may be, is depth quality. Depth is always good, and we need more in some positions, but that's our big staring 11 need going forward.
Agreed- my two priorities for off season signings are a CB (young or in their prime, but ready to start) and a right winger.
College soccer heads, are there any decent CB prospects? I tend to prefer young CBs are homegrown cause I prefer not to spend a ton of money on non-proven defenders, but they need a new one regardless.
I can't help with college prospects (I don't keep up with that all that well), but I reiterate my idea that the FO should have a go at getting Rion Ishikawa away from Urawa Red Diamonds. Only 20, but several caps with the senior JWNT (including WWC23, but only one match), starts for the holding WE League champions, 5'8", and comes out of the insanely good Japanese youth system.
Besides, that would take a really good young player away from Urawa, which is better for my Tokyo Verdy Beleza! =P
Yeah, I’m right here with you for positional needs I wanna see (and in that order.) That’s assuming Sinc is either on the bench, or, well….because I don’t wanna see Hina benched because she’s currently being shunted to that RW spot.
Starting quality CB is a must. Just saw Jamaican int’l CB Plumptre (who was a free agent) possibly going to United. She was pretty good in the WC. I’m just like…KK, I really hope you talked to some agents while you were on vacation.
I, too, fear really falling behind. The process is already underway, and we haven’t really updated our squad in years, so yeah this sale needs to be done yesterday. Staff, as well as players are being picked up by other teams and I hope we’re not just gonna settle for the scraps after everyone’s upgraded their rosters by the time Thorns’ checkbooks have been freed up for use again. Gotham, NC, Spirit, Orlando, KC, ACFC, SDW, Houston… all have picked up big name players recently (and throughout the season.) Chicago is about to really upgrade in the off-season (and get Mal Swanson back.) Us, OL Reign, and Racing are kinda the few teams standing pat, and both have still been renewing contracts and OL Reign have got some new players in this season. Portland and Chicago has done the least, I’d say, and we’re about to be left in the dust. Thankfully our roster has been able to carry us, but yeah, gonna need to start doing a lot more to retain players and keep (at least!) level with the other investments in the league. Can’t afford another wasted off-season….
Such great news, and hopefully a quick(ish) and full recovery! I'm not convinced that this means the team is going to drop in the standings. Getting back Sugita and Dunn will help a lot, as will the return of Becky and Hubly. With only three games in September we should be okay, and the gauntlet of Louisville, OL Reign and San Diego doesn't look so challenging right now.
Also, Louisville will be hurting for players this weekend. Savannah Demelo is out because of accumulated yellows, Carson Pickett and Jaelin Howell are already said to be out this weekend due to injury, and Nadia Nadim will be a last minute decision because of injury (and would likely play limited minutes if she did play.) They also have a Challenge Cup semi-final game against OL Reign (in Seattle) midweek just after their game against the Thorns. Should be a must-win 3 points for us because it's not gonna get any easier for the rest of the season.
OL Reign and SDW will be tough games, despite some rough results lately on their part....although SDW seems to have found form again. With how we've been playing (very inconsistently), those feel like they could be a coin flip.
Not glad to hear Loovull's banged up but it's still helpful in evening out the inherent disadvantage from traveling to the Other Coast and playing before...dozens of engaged and hostile fans. There's also the distraction of the adjacent highway traffic, a very weird stadium feature.
It should be the most complete Thorns starting XI since before the nats left for Australia. Right, coach?
I think they can. No doubt Smith is great AND important to the team, but we beat NCC down a player and SS only played 30 mins. We were a poor call away from beating Washington on the road with SS only playing 30 minutes again. Getting back Sugita and Dunn should help offset the loss of Sm(vp)ith for a while. The Reign are going to be difficult, but we get them at home. We also get San Diego at home, but we should have better defensive depth by then. I'm feeling pretty good about where we are at. Could be better, but we still have a lot of talent on this team.
I'm sure there's a continuum of sprain severity; some Grade I sprains are worse than others, and ditto for Grade II and III. It sounds like Smith is in the range of severer Grade I to milder Grade II.
Maybe we will get lucky, though. Grade I is generally 1-3 week recovery time. That could be described as "week to week." Let's hope. In that case, we might see her for Sept 30 match. Sept 16 seems like it's pushing it.
Thanks for all the research and info. Be great if she’s available for end of regular season game(s) or playoffs, but just hope for the best for her well being now.
Where are you getting that it's likely grade 2? There’s been no description of the specifics injury at all to my knowledge, tho correct me if there is. Just because the symptoms looked painful on the field and they were (rightly) cautious with handling doesn’t necessarily mean it’s one of the higher two grades.
Regardless, “mild” generally implies “less severe.” I would think we’d see her for the first playoff round if she responds well to treatment.
I'm getting from medical sources and knowledge of sports injuries to ligaments in the knees and ankles, in basketball and soccer.
There is no such thing as a "mild" sprain. That's not the medical terminology or taxonomy.
The medical grading is minor, moderate, and severe. That's Grade I, II, and III, respectively. Grade II is partial tear, and Grade III is full rupture.
The facts that they're describing her as "week to week" and that she was put in an immobilizing brace and on crutches all align with a Grade II sprain, which is a partial tear and which is a 4-6 week timeline.
A minor sprain does not indicate week-to-week or any of the treatment steps that we have all seen. Only a moderate or severe sprain indicates such timelines and treatment.
We have to fill in for ourselves because they're not actually giving us the correct medical diagnosis and terminology. From experience, I assume that's being done intentionally.
FWIW, I had a Grade 1 MCL sprain in college playing IM soccer. It was *exceptionally* painful (I thought it was much worse at the time), but the recovery time was only 3 weeks. They gave me ice, crutches, and a brace......and I'm not a highly valuable pro athlete.
I tend to agree we won't see her until the playoffs, but I don't know that that means that the team is being deliberately obfuscatory. Is there a history of Thorns medical malpractice outside of the Pierre thing I'm forgetting?
Yeah, to me it sounds like a grade 1 sprain. Rocky's was considered moderate, which I'd say was a grade 2 because she didn't need surgery...though sometimes grade 2 sprains need surgery. Grade 3 is full rupture and surgery, generally, for a pro soccer player. A "mild" sprain with a week-to-week timeline sounds exactly in-line with a grade 1 minor sprain, imo. It all depends on how her MCL responds to PT. Could be a couple weeks, could be a month, it kinda just depends. I imagine she could return by the San Diego game.
When Keira Walsh went down in the WC, she said "I've done my knee" and was stretchered off...everyone feared the worst (it looked bad), and then I think she was playing like a week and a half later. I think first reactions from players are to fear the worst given the ACL epidemic...
Right- Time out can vary tremendously based on individual recovery time. Also, "week to week" implies a multi-week (likely 3-4) timeline- It just means she'll get evaluated "week to week." I doubt they'll rush her back tho, so either last game or playoffs seems most likely.
Thankfully we have multiple international breaks over the next couple months (never thought I'd say that lol), so I'm not even sure she'll miss the rest of the regular season. I've had former teammates come back from mild sprains in a couple weeks, but yeah, as mentioned it's highly variable. Week-to-week means exactly that- that there's no "by the book" recovery time needing to be instituted and that it'll be dependent on how she's individually feeling, both mentally and physically. I don't want her to be rushed back at all, but I'd bet she's training again within a month barring any setbacks.
I was hoping Soph’s injury was going to be like Kiera’s. I think Walsh played every game of the WC but didn’t seem to be at her best(which is probably best 6 in the world right now according to Sam Coffey).
Smith even at 75% is pretty awesome. But this team I think is still loaded if the right players are on the field in their best position. There is no need to rush Soph’s recovery.
That being said, I agree that reading into ice and crutches is probably not warranted given that on the sideline they are just trying to stabilize things until they can get a proper medical treatment, so they probably go for overkill *in case* it is a severe injury.
“Week to week” suggests that Gr.3 is ruled out; that’s weekS to a month minimum and monthS more likely.
But that still leaves a partial tear (Gr.2) which leaves her in rehab for 3-5 weeks minimum. So unless this really is a Gr.1 I wouldn’t expect to see her until October.
I’d just as soon the team is conservative. Smith is a generational talent, and I’d hate to see her reinjure this scrapping for points with freaking Orlando…
Yeah, with only a couple games in that window, it would seem smart to get the extra PT and training in for her...a month seems pretty generous if it's only grade 1. Wouldn't be surprised to see her back for minutes against SDW if all heals well.
Rocky's was listed as a moderate MCL sprain and she fit that timeline pretty closely (6wks) and was back playing at the WC, albeit wasn't quite herself yet at that point.
Although, this Louisville game is a should-win, especially with Demelo out, as well as possibly Howell, Pickett, and Nadim. OL Reign always seems to show up against the Thorns at PP, and without Sophia I worry about that one. At least she won't be getting beat up for useless USWNT games in the September window.
Week-to-week on what should have been described as a Grade II sprain (moderate/partial tear).
I'm guessing the regular season finale is the soonest we see her, and that Portland would dearly love to have a 1st-Round bye and not have to call on her until the end of October.
Smith's Injury Remaining Matches (days/weeks until scheduled match):
Okay, okay, okay. Breathe. Could be worse. I can finally sleep again.
Is it legal to get her to sign a five year contract with us while she’s on painkillers?
"What is your name?"
"I am the Batman."
"Okay, we're good to go. Sign here, and here, and here...okay, thanks! Keep the pen, please."
Haha! I snorted. Always glad when you come back around to STF for some comic relief!
It’s interesting, I feel like I have much less to say about actual soccer than off-field shenanigans!
Soph's post on twitter: "feeling all the love & healing vibes. no injury is good news but thankful it wasn’t worse. be back soon"
Really gotta get this one in Louisville- Feels like a must win given these absences, Soph’s injury, and the brutal end of season schedule. Louisville’s an underrated side, but there are maassssive gaps in their usual 11. Norris can’t afford to fuck around and not start Hina and Crystal Saturday.
https://twitter.com/tayvincent6/status/1697275347530813609?s=20
It seems Portland is 5-0 versus Loovull, allowing a cumulative total of [checks notes] 1 goal. Let's make that 6, so as not to disturb the cosmos.
This is obviously great news. I hope they won't rush her back and risk reinjury. I'm suddenly a bigger fan of the challenge cup.
OT: Weaver and Coffey named to NWSL Team of the Month. Orlando (!) and KC had three players each (Franch was one) on the list.
God would it be have been awesome if we had taken Messiah Bright. I was happy with Izzy on draft day, but happily would have taken Bright as well- just a completely different athletic and skill profile and she’s crushing it. Happy she’s at Orlando where she can start full time.
I was happy with Izzy too, but in hindsight, Messiah Bright was such a better fit for the Thorns. I thought maybe getting a player with aerial prowess was a real win for a team lacking, but her inability to adapt to our type of play (or the speed of the league) has been super disappointing. The type of 9 she is fits better with Hatch and Morgan-type systems. I don’t know her full capabilities yet, but she seems to lack the ability to play-make (and her first touch is stone) and just wants a ball in behind or crossed into her head and that’s just not how we play. Bright definitely would have fit much more seamlessly. But yeah, she would’ve really been hurting for minutes here, or would’ve been asked to play wide out of position.
I really would not be surprised to see Izzy go during the expansion draft. She went to Santa Clara and I’ve heard Aly Wagner talk so much about her on numerous occasions and how much she loves her play (Wagner also was a SC Bronco.) Wouldn’t be surprised if Bay FC had their eyes on her for selection or a possible deal. Same with Tegan McGrady, who is from San Jose and has expressed a want to eventually play back in her hometown (and doesn’t play here.)
Speaking of other NWSL players I wish we had…do you have a top 5 of gettable players you love to see at the Thorns? Like obvs not Debinha or players like her that would impossible to acquire…but maybe rookies, newbs, lesser knows? Would be curious to see everyone pick like 1-2 from each team.
Yeah I think the optimistic view -- which I share to a certain extent-- is that the current squad is (somehow) still good enough IF the main three and Soph are re-signed and Becky plays another year. Everything is linked though, so who knows what those three are thinking. At some point the club has to show some ambition, but it’s remarkable how well the roster was built in the Parsons era lol.
But yeah...even Racing got out there with the Pickett/Erceg trade and have managed to extend Demelo. Oddly enough, I’d say Seattle have been standing pat about as much as the the Thorns- They added Sonnett and Bennett but nothing through the draft....and now they’re on the edge of the playoffs with ACFC charging.
Player wise? There's a definite lack of good CBs in NWSL (why I've defended Hubly), but there's some wing options I'd take:
- Milliet, Ally Watt, Iffy (or whatever Gotham attacker is inevitably left out), Gareis (really, really like her), Salmon (still mostly riding the bench), Ella Stevens, Charley (hard to see a place for her in LA), Speckmaier.
Phuoc IIRC is high on Izzy's future, having watched her a good deal at practice and such, but she's clearly not gelled during games yet. I'd be careful about tossing out the forward with the bathwater just yet.
I was vociferously on Team Hocking and boggled at the Reyes selection, but she's proven quite the catch and I've stopped pondering the impact of Penelope's scoring chops in a Thorns uni. With the way she's rounding into form, Nighswonger could yet be the cream of the 2023 crop (sooo close at #4). OTOH I look at some of the other rounds 1 & 2 names and wonder where they even are now?
Yeah one of the reasons I was pro-Reyes (aside from her being an awesome prospect at a position of need) is because it’s rare that non-elite attacking college players make a difference in the NWSL....it’s why Bright vs. Izzy is somewhat frustrating in hindsight: Sometimes you just have to have an upside shot, and Bright had those potentially elite traits in a way Izzy very much does not. It’s the same reason why many of us are clamoring for more Betfort time: She’s fast and strong, so she at least has a basis for success.
Now, I’m not necessarily dismissing Izzy (I don’t think she’s been given a fair shake position-wise), but it’s crucial to note that even mildly successful NWSL strikers *need to have at least one elite elite trait* and usually those are pace or skill related. Izzy’s was finishing and positioning in college.... and that’s just an extremely narrow beam to be able to walk in NWSL and still find success. It’s kinda Bethany Balcer and no one else in that archetype.
Izzy brings an aerial component the Thorns barely possess. IDK how it's incorporated but it could sure help things if done right.
Well-earned, the both of them!
https://twitter.com/julieertz/status/1697274573899845755?s=20
lolACFC. Good thing they signed Mandy, I guess!
(Congrats Julie, ofc)
Glad she came back to basically only play the Thorns at PP and cause us to lose 2 points we would've probably otherwise gotten lol.
I wonder if ACFC knew this was a farce when they signed her- she just wanted to play for the national team, but Vlatko told her she had to play for a club, so she signed, played one game, then got "hurt" to rest up for the WWC, then retired. If i were an ACFC fan, i don't think i'd be an Ertz fan. I won't miss the many old-guard USWNT'ers practically-open disrespect for their NWSL clubs...
Was thinking the same thing. I’m sure she knew that she’d be done after the WC regardless but needed to get some club minutes to justify the call up. Still would have thought she’d play out the season especially given ACFC is playing well, but I guess not.
Tbf, she did play seven matches at 82 minutes/match...so it’s not like she just played a game and then took off.
Oh wow, didn't realize she played that much. Could've sworn I only saw her in like 2 games lol.
oh, my bad, i didn't realize she actually played that much for ACFC while she was there- okay, that's not as bad as what i had in my head.
Yeah, I think if Ertz had said to most clubs in the league, "Want me to play a few games for you, even if I don't finish out the season?", the answer would have been a resounding "Yes please!". Not necessarily the Thorns, because Sam Coffey, but even here having Ertz might have freed up Coffey to use her passing skills farther forward. And for most other teams it would be a no-brainer.
Feel similarly, and guess her contract was priced accordingly.
Big Julie fan and am glad she retires having completed the comeback from the double-whammy of injury then momhood. Her last USWNT game was the Olympics bronze match, prior to her 2023 return.
Hard to name another player who works harder and as effectively as peak Julie.
The Thorns are probably being intentionally vague for two reasons:
1. It leaves pressure off of Smith. If you say she's out for 4-6 weeks and it turns out to be 6-8 you get all kind of "did she have a setback" etc questions
2. Your opponent for the week (okay probably not Louisville) has to think...well what if Smith is available?
Yeah exactly my thinking about "week-to-week". Teams keep player availability info as secret as they can just so the opposition can't gain an edge, however small. Sauerbrunn is "week-to-week", isn't she? And has been for weeks and weeks?
Yeah seriously, Laura Harvey is the queen of secretive injury roster gatekeeping to the point where it’s almost funny to see how she obfuscates about injury questions in pre-match pressers.
put her on ice until the playoffs. play crystal at forward for a while.
Will be crushed if I don't get a Weaver-Sugita-Betfort front line at some point. Put Crystal in Sinc's spot (whatever that spot is in theory).
That would be damn effective, I'd say. But I'd prefer a Weaver - Betfort - Dunn front line with Hina at the #10. Even w/o Soph, that attack could score on any team in the world.
https://health.usf.edu/medicine/orthopaedic/patientcare/~/media/F2DC9B91E294433396ABE669358CAC1E.ashx
There is no such thing as a "mild sprain":
Sprains are graded I (minor), II (moderate), and III (severe).
What they're describing is a moderate sprain (aka partial ligament tear)., because that's what fits a week-to-week timeline.
What might actually be the case is that she's had a severe sprain (aka total ligament rupture) but not letting on that that's the situation. I hope not, but such roster gamesmanship is not out of the question. They're always going to wait as late in the week as possible to announce whether she's on the matchday roster.
I don't think we see her for the rest of the regular season. Perhaps we'll see her for the playoffs. I laid out a possible timeline above.
My uneducated guess is between 1 and 2 based on the timeline. Usually if it is 3, there is a discussion of surgery to quicken the recovery (though I don’t think any athlete should do this path).
Any is better than none. Hope to see her on the pitch this year.
Apparently even Grade III (total rupture) doesn't usually require surgery. But it's a much longer timeline to return than a Grade II.
https://twitter.com/itsmeglinehan/status/1697704884705845487?s=20
Chicago sale complete- Add another team to the rapidly growing list of clubs (ACFC, Washingon, KC, SD, Gotham, and Chicago at a minimum) that will likely be more ambitious and aggressive than the Thorns this offseason. Really can't overstate the importance of Portland's wrapping up before 2024.
Key roster management items riding on the sale:
1. Soph's contract / her willingness to extend.
2. Kuikka, Dunn, and Moultrie's contracts.
3. Any new signings.
On point 3: we simply _must_ have a high-end young CB signing. While Menges seems fully recovered and has good football to give still, Becky is very probably gone at season's end and Hubly, wonderful teammate and person though she may be, is depth quality. Depth is always good, and we need more in some positions, but that's our big staring 11 need going forward.
Agreed- my two priorities for off season signings are a CB (young or in their prime, but ready to start) and a right winger.
College soccer heads, are there any decent CB prospects? I tend to prefer young CBs are homegrown cause I prefer not to spend a ton of money on non-proven defenders, but they need a new one regardless.
I can't help with college prospects (I don't keep up with that all that well), but I reiterate my idea that the FO should have a go at getting Rion Ishikawa away from Urawa Red Diamonds. Only 20, but several caps with the senior JWNT (including WWC23, but only one match), starts for the holding WE League champions, 5'8", and comes out of the insanely good Japanese youth system.
Besides, that would take a really good young player away from Urawa, which is better for my Tokyo Verdy Beleza! =P
Yeah, I’m right here with you for positional needs I wanna see (and in that order.) That’s assuming Sinc is either on the bench, or, well….because I don’t wanna see Hina benched because she’s currently being shunted to that RW spot.
Starting quality CB is a must. Just saw Jamaican int’l CB Plumptre (who was a free agent) possibly going to United. She was pretty good in the WC. I’m just like…KK, I really hope you talked to some agents while you were on vacation.
I, too, fear really falling behind. The process is already underway, and we haven’t really updated our squad in years, so yeah this sale needs to be done yesterday. Staff, as well as players are being picked up by other teams and I hope we’re not just gonna settle for the scraps after everyone’s upgraded their rosters by the time Thorns’ checkbooks have been freed up for use again. Gotham, NC, Spirit, Orlando, KC, ACFC, SDW, Houston… all have picked up big name players recently (and throughout the season.) Chicago is about to really upgrade in the off-season (and get Mal Swanson back.) Us, OL Reign, and Racing are kinda the few teams standing pat, and both have still been renewing contracts and OL Reign have got some new players in this season. Portland and Chicago has done the least, I’d say, and we’re about to be left in the dust. Thankfully our roster has been able to carry us, but yeah, gonna need to start doing a lot more to retain players and keep (at least!) level with the other investments in the league. Can’t afford another wasted off-season….
Such great news, and hopefully a quick(ish) and full recovery! I'm not convinced that this means the team is going to drop in the standings. Getting back Sugita and Dunn will help a lot, as will the return of Becky and Hubly. With only three games in September we should be okay, and the gauntlet of Louisville, OL Reign and San Diego doesn't look so challenging right now.
Also, Louisville will be hurting for players this weekend. Savannah Demelo is out because of accumulated yellows, Carson Pickett and Jaelin Howell are already said to be out this weekend due to injury, and Nadia Nadim will be a last minute decision because of injury (and would likely play limited minutes if she did play.) They also have a Challenge Cup semi-final game against OL Reign (in Seattle) midweek just after their game against the Thorns. Should be a must-win 3 points for us because it's not gonna get any easier for the rest of the season.
OL Reign and SDW will be tough games, despite some rough results lately on their part....although SDW seems to have found form again. With how we've been playing (very inconsistently), those feel like they could be a coin flip.
Not glad to hear Loovull's banged up but it's still helpful in evening out the inherent disadvantage from traveling to the Other Coast and playing before...dozens of engaged and hostile fans. There's also the distraction of the adjacent highway traffic, a very weird stadium feature.
It should be the most complete Thorns starting XI since before the nats left for Australia. Right, coach?
Assured playoff spot is at hand but home field is really, really worth battling for. They can keep Soph on comfy pillows until they begin, I think?
I think they can. No doubt Smith is great AND important to the team, but we beat NCC down a player and SS only played 30 mins. We were a poor call away from beating Washington on the road with SS only playing 30 minutes again. Getting back Sugita and Dunn should help offset the loss of Sm(vp)ith for a while. The Reign are going to be difficult, but we get them at home. We also get San Diego at home, but we should have better defensive depth by then. I'm feeling pretty good about where we are at. Could be better, but we still have a lot of talent on this team.
I'm sure there's a continuum of sprain severity; some Grade I sprains are worse than others, and ditto for Grade II and III. It sounds like Smith is in the range of severer Grade I to milder Grade II.
Just glad it’s not being flagged as definitive surgery.
Maybe we will get lucky, though. Grade I is generally 1-3 week recovery time. That could be described as "week to week." Let's hope. In that case, we might see her for Sept 30 match. Sept 16 seems like it's pushing it.
Here's more from Cleveland Clinic. What the Thorns put out there doesn't match medical grading, symptoms, prognosis.
If she's Grade II, she's probably 4-6 weeks. If she's Grade III, which is how it was actually treated/handled on matchday, it'll be longer than that.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21979-mcl-tear
Thanks for all the research and info. Be great if she’s available for end of regular season game(s) or playoffs, but just hope for the best for her well being now.
Where are you getting that it's likely grade 2? There’s been no description of the specifics injury at all to my knowledge, tho correct me if there is. Just because the symptoms looked painful on the field and they were (rightly) cautious with handling doesn’t necessarily mean it’s one of the higher two grades.
Regardless, “mild” generally implies “less severe.” I would think we’d see her for the first playoff round if she responds well to treatment.
I'm getting from medical sources and knowledge of sports injuries to ligaments in the knees and ankles, in basketball and soccer.
There is no such thing as a "mild" sprain. That's not the medical terminology or taxonomy.
The medical grading is minor, moderate, and severe. That's Grade I, II, and III, respectively. Grade II is partial tear, and Grade III is full rupture.
The facts that they're describing her as "week to week" and that she was put in an immobilizing brace and on crutches all align with a Grade II sprain, which is a partial tear and which is a 4-6 week timeline.
A minor sprain does not indicate week-to-week or any of the treatment steps that we have all seen. Only a moderate or severe sprain indicates such timelines and treatment.
We have to fill in for ourselves because they're not actually giving us the correct medical diagnosis and terminology. From experience, I assume that's being done intentionally.
I get the nomenclature issue, but I don't think an abundance of caution and care with how she was treated equates to severity. Ice and crutches are recommended for all grades, not just the higher 2-3. Also, while the official grades are 1, 2, and 3, MCL sprains are often described as mild or severe because there's a range of outcomes- Here's one example, but the Cleveland Clinic link you posted also uses "mild" for Grade 1: https://www.massgeneralbrigham.org/en/patient-care/services-and-specialties/sports-medicine/conditions/knee/mcl-injuries#:~:text=A%20grade%201%20MCL%20injury,likely%20be%20painful%20and%20tender.
FWIW, I had a Grade 1 MCL sprain in college playing IM soccer. It was *exceptionally* painful (I thought it was much worse at the time), but the recovery time was only 3 weeks. They gave me ice, crutches, and a brace......and I'm not a highly valuable pro athlete.
I tend to agree we won't see her until the playoffs, but I don't know that that means that the team is being deliberately obfuscatory. Is there a history of Thorns medical malpractice outside of the Pierre thing I'm forgetting?
Yeah, to me it sounds like a grade 1 sprain. Rocky's was considered moderate, which I'd say was a grade 2 because she didn't need surgery...though sometimes grade 2 sprains need surgery. Grade 3 is full rupture and surgery, generally, for a pro soccer player. A "mild" sprain with a week-to-week timeline sounds exactly in-line with a grade 1 minor sprain, imo. It all depends on how her MCL responds to PT. Could be a couple weeks, could be a month, it kinda just depends. I imagine she could return by the San Diego game.
When Keira Walsh went down in the WC, she said "I've done my knee" and was stretchered off...everyone feared the worst (it looked bad), and then I think she was playing like a week and a half later. I think first reactions from players are to fear the worst given the ACL epidemic...
Right- Time out can vary tremendously based on individual recovery time. Also, "week to week" implies a multi-week (likely 3-4) timeline- It just means she'll get evaluated "week to week." I doubt they'll rush her back tho, so either last game or playoffs seems most likely.
Thankfully we have multiple international breaks over the next couple months (never thought I'd say that lol), so I'm not even sure she'll miss the rest of the regular season. I've had former teammates come back from mild sprains in a couple weeks, but yeah, as mentioned it's highly variable. Week-to-week means exactly that- that there's no "by the book" recovery time needing to be instituted and that it'll be dependent on how she's individually feeling, both mentally and physically. I don't want her to be rushed back at all, but I'd bet she's training again within a month barring any setbacks.
I was hoping Soph’s injury was going to be like Kiera’s. I think Walsh played every game of the WC but didn’t seem to be at her best(which is probably best 6 in the world right now according to Sam Coffey).
Smith even at 75% is pretty awesome. But this team I think is still loaded if the right players are on the field in their best position. There is no need to rush Soph’s recovery.
Phew that feels like good news.
Well... There was the whole Jake Gleeson thing with the Timbers. I imagine at the *doctor* level, it's probably the same doctors even though they have separate trainers. https://www.stumptownfooty.com/2020/7/6/21315142/former-timbers-keeper-jake-gleeson-files-10-2-million-lawsuit-against-team-doctors
That being said, I agree that reading into ice and crutches is probably not warranted given that on the sideline they are just trying to stabilize things until they can get a proper medical treatment, so they probably go for overkill *in case* it is a severe injury.
“Week to week” suggests that Gr.3 is ruled out; that’s weekS to a month minimum and monthS more likely.
But that still leaves a partial tear (Gr.2) which leaves her in rehab for 3-5 weeks minimum. So unless this really is a Gr.1 I wouldn’t expect to see her until October.
I'd say we don't see her til October even if it is Grade 1 tbh
I’d just as soon the team is conservative. Smith is a generational talent, and I’d hate to see her reinjure this scrapping for points with freaking Orlando…
Yeah, with only a couple games in that window, it would seem smart to get the extra PT and training in for her...a month seems pretty generous if it's only grade 1. Wouldn't be surprised to see her back for minutes against SDW if all heals well.
Rocky's was listed as a moderate MCL sprain and she fit that timeline pretty closely (6wks) and was back playing at the WC, albeit wasn't quite herself yet at that point.
Maybe if they win the next two they'd give her the 30th off just cause lol
Asking a lot of Mike Norris lol.
Although, this Louisville game is a should-win, especially with Demelo out, as well as possibly Howell, Pickett, and Nadim. OL Reign always seems to show up against the Thorns at PP, and without Sophia I worry about that one. At least she won't be getting beat up for useless USWNT games in the September window.
Re: missing USWNT games, sounds like a silver lining.
Maaaaaaaaaybe in that San Diego game on the 30th, if it's a grade one MCL sprain or whatever.
Week-to-week on what should have been described as a Grade II sprain (moderate/partial tear).
I'm guessing the regular season finale is the soonest we see her, and that Portland would dearly love to have a 1st-Round bye and not have to call on her until the end of October.
Smith's Injury Remaining Matches (days/weeks until scheduled match):
Regular Season:
Sept 2 (3 days)
Sept 16 (2.5 weeks)
Sept 30 (4.5 weeks)
Oct 7 (5.5 weeks)
October 15 (6.5 weeks)
Playoffs:
October 22/23 for #3-#6 (7.5 weeks)
October 29/20 Semifinals (8.5 weeks)
November 11 Championship (10.5 weeks)
Yeah... We're not getting a first round bye without Smith... Absolutely no way.