Now I know that I'm not a crazy paranoid fan. Gio has lost this team and will never win it back. Safe to assume Moreno isn’t the only one disgruntled. This probably explains why he didn’t start yesterday.
For jazzy it was the start of the year. i dont remember the game but the 1st game he served his "ban" was the 0-0 game at home vs the Galaxy with the exciting end where bingham injured himself near the end and rasmussen ended in goal and I thought at least that was the end of binghams carrer (in a very timbers-y way). After that gio knew Sulte wasn't gonna cut it so he had almost no option but to start jazzy again
As much as Gio should be fired, Ned also needs to go. Sure many of the roster issues are on GW, however one of Ned's first acts was to extend Gio's contract after failing to reach playoffs.
My feeling is we need to get some outside hires and clean house, there's way too many Timbers old boys in the club.
Ned has some notable failures, most notably CB. But I find it hard to judge him because of the mess around him and the FO’s slow and sloppy way of filling his role and office.
We need a Lagerway like guy to come in here as an executive and get this organization going right. If that means replacing Ned, I’m fine with it, but it’s not exactly fair to Ned, IMO.
Yeah, but his first act was reward Gio with a new contract despite failing to make playoffs. It was just a bone headed move given that it was a lot of risk to take on. The smart move would have been to look at Gio's contract at the end of this season.
So given that firing Gio now looks like a million dollar cost, I'm not sure why the person who made that decision should get more goes. Plus I'm not sold on Ned's success in his previous roles as Technical Director and Director of Scouting. He just seems to fail upwards.
He didn't start that deal. These deals don't go down in just a week or something. One year of not making the playoffs with a bad squad after a strong coaching start here isn't ridiculous. In fact pulling a deal in the works for a guy with one bad season would be ridiculous.
Ned has been talked about as being very well regarded among his front office peers around the league, for what it's worth. And now it's his show as the not-interim, so at this point he should be firing Gio and building the coaching staff that he wants as well as the team that he wants.
This is what happens when you hire some random former player WHO HAS NO EXPERIENCE for such an important role. Hiring Ned was always a stupid, low probability of success, gamble. Probably Peregrine Sports just trying to moneyball the front office and stepping on a rake instead.
I’d really like to know how Niezgoda and Mabiala are on the team still. At some level it’s a failure on Ned regardless. But if this wasn’t like a demand from either FO or Gio and Ned’s mistake was weak leadership, it’s especially damning for him.
I don't know why people think you can just walk out of every bad contract. Roster rules don't allow that. Signing Niezgoda was a good move on paper when it was made and Mabiala basically carried us to MLS Cup in 2021 (two playoff goals). Those were gambles that didn't pay off (re-signing Blanco was madness, though. No idea what they were thinking.)
You can only make one contract go **poof** per year and even then you are on the hook for that money, so unless MP just wants to flat out lose a million dollars (plus whatever transfer fees are left), Ned can't just write off Niezgoda's contract. The only player the Timbers have ever amnestied as far as I know was Ricketts, but that was a $250k contract that they had to pay out and really they only paid out a small part of that b/c Orlando picked up the contract at a lower price point and the Timbers only had to pay the difference.
The amnesty clause is really just not used by MLS teams and especially not on high-earning players.
For two years they decided not to use it though, and it literally screwed this season. Imagine amnestying Blanco last year and Niezgoda this year. 2 max cap hit TAM/DP players could completely change this team. Yeah it costs the organization a lot which is why they didn't do it, but bad roster moves led to a lot of this situation. GW probably helped blow up things on his way out.
We have an amnesty clause we can use on those 2 as well as Blanco which would give us a lot of cap flexibility. But that would mean they have to still pay them. My guess is MP doesn't want to take the financial hit.
And there is no way a player who makes what Blanco or Niezgoda makes is going to be amnestied with 14 games left in their contracts. I'm willing to give Ned more time, but if he pulls out the amnesty card on one of those two now, the time I'm willing to give him will shorten very dramatically, because that would be stupid as hell.
I know that it's only one. But Blanco is making $1.5 million a year and he was quoted at the beginning of the season that he could barely walk up the stairs. How's he going to play effective soccer? That's a lot of TAM now we could use.
LAFC hired a former player with no previous experience at all and that worked out great. Cincinnati hired someone with no former experience and they’re the best team in the league. I’m not sure what problem there is with Neds lack of experience when other teams have shown it’s perfectly viable
I think it's too soon to judge Grabavoy. He had six years experience scouting and recruiting players for the Timbers before he was named acting GM and then hired for that role. For months he did both his old job and new one, and only recently got help by hiring Jack Dodd as technical director. Was he qualified to be GM? We really don't know yet, and he clearly has been dealing with a mess of problems. (New CEO, Heather Davis, should be under the spotlight, too.)
By the way, LAFC's Steve Cherundulo had nearly six years of coaching experience in Germany and then a year as head coach of the Las Vegas USL team. Cincy's Pat Noonan was an assistant coach for Jim Curtin at Philadelphia for three years. Curtin has been very public in praising him.
I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing Cherundulo and Noonan came into better run and better financed operations than Grabavoy. They definitely weren't dealing with serious scandals.
I also have heard, albeit third-hand, that the Timbers have basically next to nothing in the way of analytics or data analysis, compared to other teams. They have a very small analytics staff, where almost every other team in the league is staffing those areas up and trying to squeeze as much out of as much data as they can.
Until the Timbers catch up with that, they'll always be operating at a handicap.
Yeah there was some article that came out awhile back stating how each team in MLS handled their analytics. It stated that we don’t have a staff, we just use Stat Bomb to get the stats for us. Which is better than nothing (some teams have nothing), but I’d rather have humans
Not talking about Cherundulo or Noonan, but rather John Thorrington and Chris Albright. Albright had a few more years of experience being an assistant GM at Philly but Thorrington had none. But your point stands, LAFC and Cinci are two of the top spenders in the league
Well, I guess both those teams also have competent front offices to back up inexperienced technical directors. So let me clarify -- it was always a gamble to hire someone with no experience when his only support system would be a fucking dumpster fire front office.
So would an experienced GM make much of a difference with said dumpster fire front office? Ned has had only a month or two as GM with proper staff at hand, it’s wayyyyyy to early to judge him
I always want what is best for the team and that means someone from a organization like Ajax or bvb. Like I said in another post. But to me it seems like Ned's biggest downside is probably coming up through the Timbers FO. The guy won't say no to MP or give an honest assessment of what is best for the team. Cause how he thought extending gio was a good idea, is beyond me. Especially after last season. So either he was overruled by MP or he makes shit mistakes
I'm sorry but if you're stepping into a new job and that deal which was obviously started a long time ago is coming to fruition you're not going to step back and rock the boat and pull the rug on a guy who was still under contract for this season. This is an organizational issue.
I don't agree with this. At this point I would keep Ned, I think he has made some good moves to set the club up for the future. The young players who have come on the past two years have been really good (or show great potential), and the veteran pickups have been solid. Have there been mistakes? Of course, and every GM will have them.
This coming offseason is when the real moves are going to be critical. With the money coming off the books, we need to bring in the right players to revamp this team. Finding a Chara replacement is crucial, recreating the offense is now paramount, finding another wing-back is important. This is a make or break offseason, where the team can catapult itself to the top or wallow in mediocrity.
If it is Gio or Santi to leave. see ya Gio. Many on here have realized how poorly the team is mismanaged and a complete lack of team identity. Understand where Santi is coming from. Evander must be kicking himself right about now.
It feels like things have been worse for a couple seasons or more now with no sign of getting better. We've seen numerous injuries, we have a grossly under-performing team, and now we have players who are no longer able to grow and deal with the issues at hand. The roster has undergone change, but the issues remain. Time to look at other reasons for failure and make changes.
This all presupposes that ownership wants to make those changes. I am seeing plenty of evidence that he does not. He's just sitting on his investment waiting to cash it out one of these days.
Is making the playoffs / final a good metric for overall performance ? In the last decade PTFC made the playoffs five times, and of those five times made the finals three and of those three won it once. As we all know.
Only Toronto have tied this performance, and only Seattle have beaten it, meaning over the past decade we've had better results than any other MLS team except Seattle and Toronto.
For what it's worth, Savarese has been head coach for the past five seasons, during which we've made the playoffs three times, getting to the final twice.
Do you reckon the decline has just been last season and then this season? Or does it go back further? Seems like it could turn around next season. This one, we're definitely sinking.
Timbers won MLS is Back in 2020. It may not be "the big one", but it is a trophy that ended a season and marked that season's champion.
I do not in any way think that should buy Gio time or save his job, but he has won a trophy with the Timbers.
Also a Cascadia Cup, and potentially a second this year. Which again should absolutely not save his job, but when he leaves, as they used to say on game shows, he won't leave empty-handed.
I don't really think that matters. People could look at his record, bare bones, and figure he isn't a total liability, and his performance isn't lowering the organization's valuation, so there's no reason to fire him.
Right. Almost by definition, the people who post here are more deeply invested in the Timbers than a vast majority of the fan base. While neither approach is wrong or bad - people can fan how they want, after all - the more casual fan looks at Gio's resume and sees:
- Two MLS Cup final appearances
- A team that makes the playoffs more often than it doesn't
- A handful of fun-to-watch players
- A coach that says and does all the right non-coaching things (salutes the fans, wears scarves, seems to know the history, talks positively about the community, etc)
- yeah, they had a bad season so far, but (points at all the other stuff on this list) I'll give him a minute to figure it out
(many of us on this board have given him that minute at this point, and know he won't figure it out, but the lesser-engaged fan probably hasn't)
and then thinks "yeah, Gio's a perfectly good coach". And again, by the most surface-y of metrics, he is. It's only when you look a little harder that the cracks start to show, or if you watch every single game and can see the patterns developing over the last two or 2.5 seasons that you realize he's not fit for purpose.
Rather than strictly see this as a Gio issue, although it's clear he has lost the locker room, this is an organizational issue.
The organization suffered from a poor GM in GW (even if he made some good deals) and a poor president of soccer operations. The cultural climate within the organization was by all reports BAD. Merrit basically sacrificed GW and Golub to save himself. A strong leader who wasn't culpable in any of their fireable offenses wouldn't step back, but would step forward and take a more active role to right and fix the culture. Instead he's retreated and distanced himself from the organization to protect the brand.
Then you look at what was left from the 6 months behind new FO. There's not a lot great that GW left this team with. You have several overpaid/underperforming players, but also who is the veteran leadership on this team. Mabs is on the bench. Chara is more of a long term club great player but personality wise he's not the locker room leader it seems. Zuparic is definitely honest, but I don't see him leading the team. In past years you'd see guys like Ridgewell, or Valeri, or even Blanco. Now I don't know who that is, and guys who would/should be aren't really playing.
Then you have a coach who's struggling with the locker room and getting performances from a fairly talent depleted team. Add to that a guy who's in negotiations with a team for a contract extension, but whose performance has been inconsistent and not bought in. He doesn't agree with the way he's played or rated. Not uncommon for someone to not get what they want contract wise and basically try to leave a probably bad situation. You can't keep underperforming players on contract and not bring guys who can by performance and experience lead the team. A young guy who's playing a lot, leading the team in assists, not liking how he is and has to play, is definitely going to want more $ and definitely going to want to leave after being benched a single game. I'd like to see Santi criticized as much for his performances as anyone else, as they've been under what he's capable of. However, if he's been in negotiations, isn't getting the $ and he's not getting on with Gio, then going public is a move to force the FOs hand.
However, the organization is likely not going to fire Gio (even if they should) and then hire a new coach who's going to be much better. I don't think most coaches would want to step into this organization right now. That said Gio can't stay around and have a winning organization without a roster clear out to get guys that want to buy in to his team. However, I think until Merrit steps out and the team is under new ownership you're not going to see the organization succeed like it should or could. Also it makes you wonder what exactly cause Porter to leave. He left on his own accord and you know it's a thing where he thought the organization was screwed.
Nagbe also came back from the Gold Cup and was requesting basically a 100% raise and would have made him a DP. Nagbe was sold after Porter walked, but it seemed to make sense to me at the time because Porter leaving was pretty out of nowhere.
Yes Nagbe was sold after Porter left, but it was soon after, and undoubtedly Porter knew the sale was in the works. I strongly suspect Porter was very much against the sale - he and Nagbe had a longtime special relationship, going back to Darlington's mid-teens - and when Porter couldn't stop the sale, he walked out.
I don't think selling Nagbe was even necessarily the wrong move. We needed a good 8 but our defense was so bad we couldn't play him there anyway, and salary cap/roster restrictions were undoubtedly a factor. Nagbe's good but not as good as he looks. He doesn't have the attitude.
I’ll take a stab at this. Gio isn’t going to be fired because the FO needs him to take the hits while the roster quality is reduced/depleted. You can’t bring in a new guy if that is the intention. So extend Gio while selling off Bill T, selling off Jebo, refuse to pay Clark, Jazzy has a large contract, so bring in Bingham and give him some starts while #1 is healthy (according to him, and I believe him). You get the idea. Porter’s exit was so sudden and unexpected. I wonder if Caleb saw what Gio can’t see (or sees and is going along with it.)
This is the first time in Timbers recent history I can remember where a young player asked to be traded because he was under-appreciated. It's a bad precedent, and I agree, there are more players who are disaffected. It's clear Gio has lost the confidence of the team, and you can see it from the way they play, no heart, no fire. His problem is he can't get the players to develop the considerable talent many of them have. No wonder they are dissatisfied. Sorry to say this, but he needs to go now before more damage is done. But I fear the rot is a lot deeper. This will take a long time to work through. Meantime, I hope Moreno will give the situation some time.
Well, at least the Thorns are... Um... Okay, never mind.
Yeah, they're still high in the table, but the last couple matches have been brutally bad, and they've been playing below their (insanely good) roster's potential all year.
As a Colombian Thorns fan, I can't but root for the US to flame out in the first round and Colombia to win it all. A USWNT victory tour would wreck the Thorns season.
The uswnt isn't winning the wc. They will get 3rd or lower. I'm calling it now. I honestly even doubt that. No press, Pugh, saurbrunn, and I can't spell the forwards name but she is Brazilian/american. And is our only players rated top 10 in the world. And to be honest I have not seen the uswnt play worse in my life than under vlatko.
This season Farfan has played in 21 matches for Dallas and started in most. He's scored once and has two assists. Current market value: $2 million-plus. Named once to MLS Team of the Matchday.
Cascante, out injured in the early part of the season, has two goals and four assists for Austin. He's started in 11 matches and received a 3-year contract extension in April. Named to Team of the Matchday three times. Also valued at $2 million-plus.
There are very few things in this world that make me truly upset. I’m a very level headed guy and I always look to the positive side of things. But man, I am fucking IRATE. I don’t care how underwhelming he’s been this season, this guy is a damn star. Last season wasn’t a fluke. Moreno is extraordinarily talented, and we’d be foolish to let him go.
“Moreno also takes issue with how he is utilized in coach Giovanni Savarese’s system, sources said”
Has the system changed from last year? He was amazing last year, so why does he take issue with it now? I don’t know. It’s confusing. This gives me pause, I’m not gonna lie. But I trust Moreno more than I trust Gio, who’s proven to not be getting the best out of his players.
“If we don’t have everyone pushing and putting the effort the same way, it’s going to be always difficult,” Savarese said Saturday. “Particular players don’t join the other guys that are giving everything on the field.”
So it’s clear that several players are not buying into Gio’s game plan. This is not the first time this has happened. The players need a new voice, because if there’s no buy in, the team will never be very good.
I hope Gio can work his magic mending relationships in the past. He’s done it many times before. But hearing a player formally request a trade feels different. “The club has made multiple attempts this season to work towards contract improvements with no outcome.” It feels like this relationship has been cracked all season and it hasn’t been fixed, and I don’t see that changing. And the worst part is, it feels like the club is seeing this as more of a problem with Moreno than Gio. If we get rid of Moreno, and then the team gets worse and we fire Gio at the end of the season... what are we doing? We need to get rid of Gio NOW so the players can buy in again
Players aren't buying into Gio's tactics for the same reason many of us aren't, because they're not working and haven't for the better part of 1.5 seasons now. Williamson, Zup, and now Santi taking the nuclear option are all cries for help.
Part of Moreno's problems and no doubt his frustrations, his he has had to adapt and play numerous roles. I'm sure his best role is as an attacking winger, driving at opponents. It's just not clear how Gio wants to attack - and this has been a problem for a few seasons now.
Moreno’s situation involves a variety of factors. He’s had to play several positions due to the team’s rotating list of injuries. He’s had to try to excel without key contributors like Evander, Mora, Blanco, and Y. Chara, which has put more pressure and focus on his play. His play has been significantly less inspiring this year and he hasn’t scored a goal. In addition, I suspect that he has people here and abroad telling him that he has the talent to play elsewhere, which has him looking to move on rather than committing his efforts to his current team. All of these factors are more difficult for a younger player, especially playing somewhere other than his home nation.
I don’t think he’s been amazing at all tbh. Serviceable at best. He’s got pace and can get forward but his passing in the final third is god awful and his shots are nearly just as bad. Yimmy bumps him out of the starting lineup when he returns and while I do think he’s a great guy to come off the bench for the final 30, if he wants to leave than let him go.
If you’re describing him this year, sure. Last year? He was incredible. He’s such a creative player, he has great vision and the technical ability to pick out any pass he wants.
Yimmi bumps him out of the starting lineup, and not Asprilla/Loria? How? Despite having zero goals, Moreno has more goal contributions than both of them combined, as well as much better overall play
Yeah I’m sorry man I just don’t feel the same. I think he’s better on the ball than Melano (not by much) and he’s pretty good at controlling the ball but I would argue till the day I die that he can pick out any pass he wants. We’ve had countless plays this season where Santi has been in advanced positions, on goal, and made just the most god awful pass you almost can’t believe it. Last season he was better but the same frustrations were there. All pace, no quality. His shot is poor, his passing is below average. Not convinced he’s worth keeping especially if he’s a headache. I do think the one area he shines is controlling the ball and keeping possession…until he’s in the attacking third, which for a guy like him is where his bread is buttered
I’d keep Asprilla over him no doubt. And Loria is a midfield, not a winger or attacking player but I’m also not a big fan of Loria as well so you wouldn’t see me argue in his favor. When I think incredible I think of unstoppable, all star caliber players. He’s not that. He’s also better than a fringe MLS player which might be what my words are making him out to be, so maybe I’m being a little harsh in my criticism but I also don’t think he’s a franchise caliber player. He’s like a lot of MLS guys, he’s there, he’ll give you a bit of magic once or twice a year and other than that he’ll be largely forgettable.
I'm kind of with you, TAti. I've never quite understood why lots of people are so bullish on him. He's obviously got pace and technical skills. But he's never been a player I've seen put those attributes together in a way that consistently changes games. All the speed and fancy ball skills in the world mean nothing if they don't result in goals, assists, or consistent attacking threat. Is Santi more dangerous, more effective, than he was when he arrived? Not really. If anything, it seems he's regressed. Is that more of a Gio problem or a Santi problem? I'm trending towards the former.
I don’t think Ned needs to go necessarily and I don’t seem him as Timber. He played one year and I identify him more with RSL. People have been on Gio for years and I was always a fence sitter. Benching players for attitude is for the lower levels where Gio use to coach. At this level, its on the coach and it finally caught up to him with players saying what many fans have said for years. The excuses have been many, stadium remodel, COVID, bad schedules, injuries. We’ve had budget coaches, a college coach, USL coach. It’s time to go big and the excuses have run out.
This news doesn't surprise me. You could see the body language for awhile.
I think it's simple. He's a 10 or even an 8 in a 4-3-3. He is not a winger. I repeat, not a winger. Why has he regressed? Because he doesn't want to play winger because he really doesn't do what a winger does best - take on guys in the final third, cross or shoot, create his own shot.
Moreno's skill set is excellent touch and dribbling and good passer and he can shoot from in front of the goal outward.
Along comes Evander when Moreno was already a good 10 for the club. Evander doesn't have the pace that Moreno has, and for my money I would have liked to see Evander's pick as an actual winger. But, we have Evander, who is all right but is not as electric as a Moreno in the middle, in my opinion, just from pace and dribble alone. I suppose you could use them both as 8s in a 4-3-3.
If I were Moreno, I'd be pissed too to be used as a winger when his future really is as a 10 or an 8.
And Evander is an 8. He's said so himself. I'd be open to experimenting with Santi in the CAM role with Evander and Chara behind him. But, even if Santi isn't a winger, he's one of our better players on the wing. He's better there than Loria. He's often better than Asprilla before October. He was better than Yimmi last season and has been this season by default. He's better than a broken Blanco. And our forwards are mediocre to terrible too.
I've said elsewhere that we keep bringing in talented players, then play them out of position because, even though it isn't their natural or preferred position, they're still the best option there. We play Diego Chara as a 6 when he's an 8 (still one of the best 6s in the league...). We play Evander as a 10 when he's an 8. We tried playing Williamson as a 10 (admittedly his original position) when he's an 8 (at the MLS level). We played Nagbe as a 9 or 10 when he's an 8. We've played Blanco as a winger when he's a 10. We played Asprilla as a 9. We played Valeri as a 10 until we had to play him higher up, essentially as a second striker, when his defensive deficits and lack of pace started catching up with him, and nobody else could score a freaking goal. We've been playing Mosquera as a winger. We play Niezgoda as a lone forward. I know some of this is due to injuries but a lot of it is just poor decisions.
This club seems obsessed with signing box-to-box midfielders, then expecting them to score tons of goals or win lots of duels and tackles. It's ridiculous. Or just thinking sheer talent (or in the case of Melano, speed) translates into technical ability. Too many of our players lack the required mentality, whether that's creativity, cooperation, aggressiveness, leadership, communication, discipline....
That said, players have to be positionally flexible to an extent and everyone should be defending. Everyone should be able to take a decent shot when the opportunity arises. They're paid to try even when it seems futile and they're pissed off. But, I guess we get what we pay for.
I’m curious why you say Evander is an 8. I know that’s where he played in Denmark but he plays like a prototypical number 10. He does not have the work rate or physical presence to be an 8. His best attributes are his vision and technical ability to play any pass he wants, and his ability to score. That’s a 10 to me... Where did he say he was an 8? I feel like I remember him saying something different.
And we’ve always played Williamson as an 8 outside of a few games here and there out of necessity
A quick review of some videos and transcripts hasn't found the quote I'm looking for but I'm confident in my recollection. I just see him more as a transition player than a more purely attacking player, a shuttler. I admittedly don't think he's strong enough on defense to be the best at 8. Williamson has had a learning curve there too. You're right that he's good on the ball, dribbling, in possession, and is good at passing. Those are qualities of a good 8 as well. His work rate may be more about where and how he's being asked to play now than his general disposition. I hope that's the case. He's got 5 goals so far, which is respectable, especially under the circumstances, but I'm not that blown away by his attacking prowess so far.
CAMs/10s are arguably a bit antiquated, which we ran into with Valeri, so this might be a bit of a pointless discussion. It's a position where it's important to defend as well. Maybe Evander is better at pressing than winning tackles, so 10 could be a better fit than 8 for him. I'm mostly just saying it's weird how we keep bringing players in who started at one position, then try move them into another instead of just signing players with a history at that position. Also weird how sometimes we don't try to move players to other positions when they might perform better there.
And I don't want to overstate brief experiments with players out of positions indicates some kind of trend with a particular player. You're right that Williamson didn't get many looks outside the 8. Again, it's the trend of signing players like him who started in one position, then putting them in another. Sometimes it works though. I feel like Spencer thought Diego Chara was going to be more of a 10, or at least more of an attacking 8. That was a long time ago though...
I agree with about 98 percent. After seeing him all these years, I'd say Asprilla is more of a 9, actually, and Blanco was effective as a winger. Maybe they saw Santi like Blanco was on the wing, but Santi really can't cross, especially on the left side, whereas Blanco could take guys to the endline and cross or shoot.
Well, Moreno is Columbian and I believe that Gio favors players who like him are of Italian ancestry, especially the Argentines.
Which is why PTFC have had issues since Valeri, a fellow Italian by descent, left the club.
My theory is, Gio doesn't connect with players like Moreno, and might even have some skin in the game when it comes to the Argentina v. Columbian soccer rivalry.
And there is the historically wrought history between Venezuela and Columbia to consider as well.
I listened to a recent episode, within the last week, and the SMIP guys really came off as Gio apologists. Admittedly one data point. But they just regurgitated Gio’s post-match comments about players not giving their all without even asking questions about Gio’s leadership. It seems like PTFC is far enough along on this skid that SMIP should be turning their gaze, at least a bit of side eye, at Gio instead of just amplifying Gio throwing players under the bus. I thought it was really weak and unbalanced.
I listen every week. The hosts, Ryan Clark and Chris Rifer, have been increasingly critical of the play and failure to bring in new players. Today’s episode is very pointed about how Moreno going public points to deeper problems, including Gio’s leadership. They also discuss whether he’ll be fired. Lots of perspective and context for how the team arrived at this point.
#GIOOUT
can fans join the "season ending injury report"? Asking for a friend...
Now I know that I'm not a crazy paranoid fan. Gio has lost this team and will never win it back. Safe to assume Moreno isn’t the only one disgruntled. This probably explains why he didn’t start yesterday.
Well Ivacic has had run ins with Gio and notably Zuparic said some things recently about the roster and quality of his team mates.
True. Williamson too.
Where did y’all see these comments/ statements?
Williamson called out gio last year going into the playoffs.
Zuparic saidsomething after the Minnesota game.
Moreno just asked to be transferred
I can't remember when ivacic said something but I remember he did.
For jazzy it was the start of the year. i dont remember the game but the 1st game he served his "ban" was the 0-0 game at home vs the Galaxy with the exciting end where bingham injured himself near the end and rasmussen ended in goal and I thought at least that was the end of binghams carrer (in a very timbers-y way). After that gio knew Sulte wasn't gonna cut it so he had almost no option but to start jazzy again
We then threw Rasmussen in goal for the last 90 seconds. Still the highlight of the year, closely followed by Asprilla’s bike
Gio at the Lost & Found counter: "Has any one turned in a locker room?"
I feel like he started losing them last year, when he didn't exactly deny the Venezia rumors.
As much as Gio should be fired, Ned also needs to go. Sure many of the roster issues are on GW, however one of Ned's first acts was to extend Gio's contract after failing to reach playoffs.
My feeling is we need to get some outside hires and clean house, there's way too many Timbers old boys in the club.
Ned has some notable failures, most notably CB. But I find it hard to judge him because of the mess around him and the FO’s slow and sloppy way of filling his role and office.
We need a Lagerway like guy to come in here as an executive and get this organization going right. If that means replacing Ned, I’m fine with it, but it’s not exactly fair to Ned, IMO.
Yeah, but his first act was reward Gio with a new contract despite failing to make playoffs. It was just a bone headed move given that it was a lot of risk to take on. The smart move would have been to look at Gio's contract at the end of this season.
So given that firing Gio now looks like a million dollar cost, I'm not sure why the person who made that decision should get more goes. Plus I'm not sold on Ned's success in his previous roles as Technical Director and Director of Scouting. He just seems to fail upwards.
He was acting GM at the time and I'm sure Paulson mandated it.
He didn't start that deal. These deals don't go down in just a week or something. One year of not making the playoffs with a bad squad after a strong coaching start here isn't ridiculous. In fact pulling a deal in the works for a guy with one bad season would be ridiculous.
Ned has been talked about as being very well regarded among his front office peers around the league, for what it's worth. And now it's his show as the not-interim, so at this point he should be firing Gio and building the coaching staff that he wants as well as the team that he wants.
This is what happens when you hire some random former player WHO HAS NO EXPERIENCE for such an important role. Hiring Ned was always a stupid, low probability of success, gamble. Probably Peregrine Sports just trying to moneyball the front office and stepping on a rake instead.
I’d really like to know how Niezgoda and Mabiala are on the team still. At some level it’s a failure on Ned regardless. But if this wasn’t like a demand from either FO or Gio and Ned’s mistake was weak leadership, it’s especially damning for him.
I don't know why people think you can just walk out of every bad contract. Roster rules don't allow that. Signing Niezgoda was a good move on paper when it was made and Mabiala basically carried us to MLS Cup in 2021 (two playoff goals). Those were gambles that didn't pay off (re-signing Blanco was madness, though. No idea what they were thinking.)
You can only make one contract go **poof** per year and even then you are on the hook for that money, so unless MP just wants to flat out lose a million dollars (plus whatever transfer fees are left), Ned can't just write off Niezgoda's contract. The only player the Timbers have ever amnestied as far as I know was Ricketts, but that was a $250k contract that they had to pay out and really they only paid out a small part of that b/c Orlando picked up the contract at a lower price point and the Timbers only had to pay the difference.
The amnesty clause is really just not used by MLS teams and especially not on high-earning players.
For two years they decided not to use it though, and it literally screwed this season. Imagine amnestying Blanco last year and Niezgoda this year. 2 max cap hit TAM/DP players could completely change this team. Yeah it costs the organization a lot which is why they didn't do it, but bad roster moves led to a lot of this situation. GW probably helped blow up things on his way out.
We have an amnesty clause we can use on those 2 as well as Blanco which would give us a lot of cap flexibility. But that would mean they have to still pay them. My guess is MP doesn't want to take the financial hit.
No, you can only use it on one player per season. We could’ve and should’ve done that, but we can’t just make every bad player go away
And there is no way a player who makes what Blanco or Niezgoda makes is going to be amnestied with 14 games left in their contracts. I'm willing to give Ned more time, but if he pulls out the amnesty card on one of those two now, the time I'm willing to give him will shorten very dramatically, because that would be stupid as hell.
I know that it's only one. But Blanco is making $1.5 million a year and he was quoted at the beginning of the season that he could barely walk up the stairs. How's he going to play effective soccer? That's a lot of TAM now we could use.
Edited to fix a derp on my part...
LAFC hired a former player with no previous experience at all and that worked out great. Cincinnati hired someone with no former experience and they’re the best team in the league. I’m not sure what problem there is with Neds lack of experience when other teams have shown it’s perfectly viable
I think it's too soon to judge Grabavoy. He had six years experience scouting and recruiting players for the Timbers before he was named acting GM and then hired for that role. For months he did both his old job and new one, and only recently got help by hiring Jack Dodd as technical director. Was he qualified to be GM? We really don't know yet, and he clearly has been dealing with a mess of problems. (New CEO, Heather Davis, should be under the spotlight, too.)
By the way, LAFC's Steve Cherundulo had nearly six years of coaching experience in Germany and then a year as head coach of the Las Vegas USL team. Cincy's Pat Noonan was an assistant coach for Jim Curtin at Philadelphia for three years. Curtin has been very public in praising him.
I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing Cherundulo and Noonan came into better run and better financed operations than Grabavoy. They definitely weren't dealing with serious scandals.
I also have heard, albeit third-hand, that the Timbers have basically next to nothing in the way of analytics or data analysis, compared to other teams. They have a very small analytics staff, where almost every other team in the league is staffing those areas up and trying to squeeze as much out of as much data as they can.
Until the Timbers catch up with that, they'll always be operating at a handicap.
Imagine supporting a team which goes all in on data and statistics. Couldn't be me
Yeah there was some article that came out awhile back stating how each team in MLS handled their analytics. It stated that we don’t have a staff, we just use Stat Bomb to get the stats for us. Which is better than nothing (some teams have nothing), but I’d rather have humans
Not talking about Cherundulo or Noonan, but rather John Thorrington and Chris Albright. Albright had a few more years of experience being an assistant GM at Philly but Thorrington had none. But your point stands, LAFC and Cinci are two of the top spenders in the league
Well, I guess both those teams also have competent front offices to back up inexperienced technical directors. So let me clarify -- it was always a gamble to hire someone with no experience when his only support system would be a fucking dumpster fire front office.
So would an experienced GM make much of a difference with said dumpster fire front office? Ned has had only a month or two as GM with proper staff at hand, it’s wayyyyyy to early to judge him
I always want what is best for the team and that means someone from a organization like Ajax or bvb. Like I said in another post. But to me it seems like Ned's biggest downside is probably coming up through the Timbers FO. The guy won't say no to MP or give an honest assessment of what is best for the team. Cause how he thought extending gio was a good idea, is beyond me. Especially after last season. So either he was overruled by MP or he makes shit mistakes
Ned has been:
(1) Director of scouting, 2016-2019
(2) Technical director, 2019-2022
(3) GM 2022 - present
One could argue he's been failing upwards...
I'm sorry but if you're stepping into a new job and that deal which was obviously started a long time ago is coming to fruition you're not going to step back and rock the boat and pull the rug on a guy who was still under contract for this season. This is an organizational issue.
I don't agree with this. At this point I would keep Ned, I think he has made some good moves to set the club up for the future. The young players who have come on the past two years have been really good (or show great potential), and the veteran pickups have been solid. Have there been mistakes? Of course, and every GM will have them.
This coming offseason is when the real moves are going to be critical. With the money coming off the books, we need to bring in the right players to revamp this team. Finding a Chara replacement is crucial, recreating the offense is now paramount, finding another wing-back is important. This is a make or break offseason, where the team can catapult itself to the top or wallow in mediocrity.
I wish I could Rec this 1000 times.
If it is Gio or Santi to leave. see ya Gio. Many on here have realized how poorly the team is mismanaged and a complete lack of team identity. Understand where Santi is coming from. Evander must be kicking himself right about now.
What about Arjau?
I hope Araujo shows up v. Columbus, I want to see the look on his face
Just great. As if this season couldn't POSSIBLY get any worse, it has.
Just another reminder of something that those of us who have been long-time Mariners fans have known forever:
There is no floor.
Maybe things have to get worse in order to get better?
It feels like things have been worse for a couple seasons or more now with no sign of getting better. We've seen numerous injuries, we have a grossly under-performing team, and now we have players who are no longer able to grow and deal with the issues at hand. The roster has undergone change, but the issues remain. Time to look at other reasons for failure and make changes.
This all presupposes that ownership wants to make those changes. I am seeing plenty of evidence that he does not. He's just sitting on his investment waiting to cash it out one of these days.
Is making the playoffs / final a good metric for overall performance ? In the last decade PTFC made the playoffs five times, and of those five times made the finals three and of those three won it once. As we all know.
Only Toronto have tied this performance, and only Seattle have beaten it, meaning over the past decade we've had better results than any other MLS team except Seattle and Toronto.
For what it's worth, Savarese has been head coach for the past five seasons, during which we've made the playoffs three times, getting to the final twice.
Do you reckon the decline has just been last season and then this season? Or does it go back further? Seems like it could turn around next season. This one, we're definitely sinking.
2022 12th did not make playoffs
2021 7th made final, lost
2020 9th did not make playoffs
2019. 3rd made playoffs
2018 7th made final, lost
2017 11th did not make playoffs
2016 10th did not make playoffs
2015 5th won final
2014 10th did not make playoffs
It's not a bad record per se, but Gio has not won the big one.
Timbers won MLS is Back in 2020. It may not be "the big one", but it is a trophy that ended a season and marked that season's champion.
I do not in any way think that should buy Gio time or save his job, but he has won a trophy with the Timbers.
Also a Cascadia Cup, and potentially a second this year. Which again should absolutely not save his job, but when he leaves, as they used to say on game shows, he won't leave empty-handed.
I don't really think that matters. People could look at his record, bare bones, and figure he isn't a total liability, and his performance isn't lowering the organization's valuation, so there's no reason to fire him.
Right. Almost by definition, the people who post here are more deeply invested in the Timbers than a vast majority of the fan base. While neither approach is wrong or bad - people can fan how they want, after all - the more casual fan looks at Gio's resume and sees:
- Two MLS Cup final appearances
- A team that makes the playoffs more often than it doesn't
- A handful of fun-to-watch players
- A coach that says and does all the right non-coaching things (salutes the fans, wears scarves, seems to know the history, talks positively about the community, etc)
- yeah, they had a bad season so far, but (points at all the other stuff on this list) I'll give him a minute to figure it out
(many of us on this board have given him that minute at this point, and know he won't figure it out, but the lesser-engaged fan probably hasn't)
and then thinks "yeah, Gio's a perfectly good coach". And again, by the most surface-y of metrics, he is. It's only when you look a little harder that the cracks start to show, or if you watch every single game and can see the patterns developing over the last two or 2.5 seasons that you realize he's not fit for purpose.
In this case, I guess so.
Rather than strictly see this as a Gio issue, although it's clear he has lost the locker room, this is an organizational issue.
The organization suffered from a poor GM in GW (even if he made some good deals) and a poor president of soccer operations. The cultural climate within the organization was by all reports BAD. Merrit basically sacrificed GW and Golub to save himself. A strong leader who wasn't culpable in any of their fireable offenses wouldn't step back, but would step forward and take a more active role to right and fix the culture. Instead he's retreated and distanced himself from the organization to protect the brand.
Then you look at what was left from the 6 months behind new FO. There's not a lot great that GW left this team with. You have several overpaid/underperforming players, but also who is the veteran leadership on this team. Mabs is on the bench. Chara is more of a long term club great player but personality wise he's not the locker room leader it seems. Zuparic is definitely honest, but I don't see him leading the team. In past years you'd see guys like Ridgewell, or Valeri, or even Blanco. Now I don't know who that is, and guys who would/should be aren't really playing.
Then you have a coach who's struggling with the locker room and getting performances from a fairly talent depleted team. Add to that a guy who's in negotiations with a team for a contract extension, but whose performance has been inconsistent and not bought in. He doesn't agree with the way he's played or rated. Not uncommon for someone to not get what they want contract wise and basically try to leave a probably bad situation. You can't keep underperforming players on contract and not bring guys who can by performance and experience lead the team. A young guy who's playing a lot, leading the team in assists, not liking how he is and has to play, is definitely going to want more $ and definitely going to want to leave after being benched a single game. I'd like to see Santi criticized as much for his performances as anyone else, as they've been under what he's capable of. However, if he's been in negotiations, isn't getting the $ and he's not getting on with Gio, then going public is a move to force the FOs hand.
However, the organization is likely not going to fire Gio (even if they should) and then hire a new coach who's going to be much better. I don't think most coaches would want to step into this organization right now. That said Gio can't stay around and have a winning organization without a roster clear out to get guys that want to buy in to his team. However, I think until Merrit steps out and the team is under new ownership you're not going to see the organization succeed like it should or could. Also it makes you wonder what exactly cause Porter to leave. He left on his own accord and you know it's a thing where he thought the organization was screwed.
I bet Porter left because we wouldn't pay, then sold, Nagbe against Porter's wishes.
Nagbe also came back from the Gold Cup and was requesting basically a 100% raise and would have made him a DP. Nagbe was sold after Porter walked, but it seemed to make sense to me at the time because Porter leaving was pretty out of nowhere.
Yes Nagbe was sold after Porter left, but it was soon after, and undoubtedly Porter knew the sale was in the works. I strongly suspect Porter was very much against the sale - he and Nagbe had a longtime special relationship, going back to Darlington's mid-teens - and when Porter couldn't stop the sale, he walked out.
I don't think selling Nagbe was even necessarily the wrong move. We needed a good 8 but our defense was so bad we couldn't play him there anyway, and salary cap/roster restrictions were undoubtedly a factor. Nagbe's good but not as good as he looks. He doesn't have the attitude.
I’ll take a stab at this. Gio isn’t going to be fired because the FO needs him to take the hits while the roster quality is reduced/depleted. You can’t bring in a new guy if that is the intention. So extend Gio while selling off Bill T, selling off Jebo, refuse to pay Clark, Jazzy has a large contract, so bring in Bingham and give him some starts while #1 is healthy (according to him, and I believe him). You get the idea. Porter’s exit was so sudden and unexpected. I wonder if Caleb saw what Gio can’t see (or sees and is going along with it.)
Moreno, like Ebobisse, will flowers somewhere else. I love the guy, but Gio is not the coach for him...or for the team for that matter.
This is the first time in Timbers recent history I can remember where a young player asked to be traded because he was under-appreciated. It's a bad precedent, and I agree, there are more players who are disaffected. It's clear Gio has lost the confidence of the team, and you can see it from the way they play, no heart, no fire. His problem is he can't get the players to develop the considerable talent many of them have. No wonder they are dissatisfied. Sorry to say this, but he needs to go now before more damage is done. But I fear the rot is a lot deeper. This will take a long time to work through. Meantime, I hope Moreno will give the situation some time.
I guess you don't consider Jeremy Ebobisse a "young player"?
My mistake! Of course, and an example of a player who left and has flourished and is reaching his potential. Gio did not know what to do with him.
Also Marco Farfan.
His 2023 Dairon Asprilla level of goals+assists per 90 has been really impressive...
This miserable season continues to just suck the life out of me.
Well, at least the Thorns are... Um... Okay, never mind.
Yeah, they're still high in the table, but the last couple matches have been brutally bad, and they've been playing below their (insanely good) roster's potential all year.
Not sure it's worth thinking anything about the Thorns form until their A roster is back from the WC. It's not the same team.
As a Colombian Thorns fan, I can't but root for the US to flame out in the first round and Colombia to win it all. A USWNT victory tour would wreck the Thorns season.
The uswnt isn't winning the wc. They will get 3rd or lower. I'm calling it now. I honestly even doubt that. No press, Pugh, saurbrunn, and I can't spell the forwards name but she is Brazilian/american. And is our only players rated top 10 in the world. And to be honest I have not seen the uswnt play worse in my life than under vlatko.
Gio Out!!!
Moreno surely must be just the tip of the discontent iceberg.
Farfan and Cascante wanted out, and both have improved significantly with other clubs. Now, respectively, with Dallas and Austin.
They have?
This season Farfan has played in 21 matches for Dallas and started in most. He's scored once and has two assists. Current market value: $2 million-plus. Named once to MLS Team of the Matchday.
Cascante, out injured in the early part of the season, has two goals and four assists for Austin. He's started in 11 matches and received a 3-year contract extension in April. Named to Team of the Matchday three times. Also valued at $2 million-plus.
Indeed
There are very few things in this world that make me truly upset. I’m a very level headed guy and I always look to the positive side of things. But man, I am fucking IRATE. I don’t care how underwhelming he’s been this season, this guy is a damn star. Last season wasn’t a fluke. Moreno is extraordinarily talented, and we’d be foolish to let him go.
“Moreno also takes issue with how he is utilized in coach Giovanni Savarese’s system, sources said”
Has the system changed from last year? He was amazing last year, so why does he take issue with it now? I don’t know. It’s confusing. This gives me pause, I’m not gonna lie. But I trust Moreno more than I trust Gio, who’s proven to not be getting the best out of his players.
“If we don’t have everyone pushing and putting the effort the same way, it’s going to be always difficult,” Savarese said Saturday. “Particular players don’t join the other guys that are giving everything on the field.”
So it’s clear that several players are not buying into Gio’s game plan. This is not the first time this has happened. The players need a new voice, because if there’s no buy in, the team will never be very good.
I hope Gio can work his magic mending relationships in the past. He’s done it many times before. But hearing a player formally request a trade feels different. “The club has made multiple attempts this season to work towards contract improvements with no outcome.” It feels like this relationship has been cracked all season and it hasn’t been fixed, and I don’t see that changing. And the worst part is, it feels like the club is seeing this as more of a problem with Moreno than Gio. If we get rid of Moreno, and then the team gets worse and we fire Gio at the end of the season... what are we doing? We need to get rid of Gio NOW so the players can buy in again
Players aren't buying into Gio's tactics for the same reason many of us aren't, because they're not working and haven't for the better part of 1.5 seasons now. Williamson, Zup, and now Santi taking the nuclear option are all cries for help.
Part of Moreno's problems and no doubt his frustrations, his he has had to adapt and play numerous roles. I'm sure his best role is as an attacking winger, driving at opponents. It's just not clear how Gio wants to attack - and this has been a problem for a few seasons now.
Moreno’s situation involves a variety of factors. He’s had to play several positions due to the team’s rotating list of injuries. He’s had to try to excel without key contributors like Evander, Mora, Blanco, and Y. Chara, which has put more pressure and focus on his play. His play has been significantly less inspiring this year and he hasn’t scored a goal. In addition, I suspect that he has people here and abroad telling him that he has the talent to play elsewhere, which has him looking to move on rather than committing his efforts to his current team. All of these factors are more difficult for a younger player, especially playing somewhere other than his home nation.
"I hope Gio can work his magic mending relationships"
NARRATOR VOICE: he can't
I don’t think he’s been amazing at all tbh. Serviceable at best. He’s got pace and can get forward but his passing in the final third is god awful and his shots are nearly just as bad. Yimmy bumps him out of the starting lineup when he returns and while I do think he’s a great guy to come off the bench for the final 30, if he wants to leave than let him go.
If you’re describing him this year, sure. Last year? He was incredible. He’s such a creative player, he has great vision and the technical ability to pick out any pass he wants.
Yimmi bumps him out of the starting lineup, and not Asprilla/Loria? How? Despite having zero goals, Moreno has more goal contributions than both of them combined, as well as much better overall play
Yeah I’m sorry man I just don’t feel the same. I think he’s better on the ball than Melano (not by much) and he’s pretty good at controlling the ball but I would argue till the day I die that he can pick out any pass he wants. We’ve had countless plays this season where Santi has been in advanced positions, on goal, and made just the most god awful pass you almost can’t believe it. Last season he was better but the same frustrations were there. All pace, no quality. His shot is poor, his passing is below average. Not convinced he’s worth keeping especially if he’s a headache. I do think the one area he shines is controlling the ball and keeping possession…until he’s in the attacking third, which for a guy like him is where his bread is buttered
I’d keep Asprilla over him no doubt. And Loria is a midfield, not a winger or attacking player but I’m also not a big fan of Loria as well so you wouldn’t see me argue in his favor. When I think incredible I think of unstoppable, all star caliber players. He’s not that. He’s also better than a fringe MLS player which might be what my words are making him out to be, so maybe I’m being a little harsh in my criticism but I also don’t think he’s a franchise caliber player. He’s like a lot of MLS guys, he’s there, he’ll give you a bit of magic once or twice a year and other than that he’ll be largely forgettable.
That won't be an issue because yimmi contract is up after this year.
I'm kind of with you, TAti. I've never quite understood why lots of people are so bullish on him. He's obviously got pace and technical skills. But he's never been a player I've seen put those attributes together in a way that consistently changes games. All the speed and fancy ball skills in the world mean nothing if they don't result in goals, assists, or consistent attacking threat. Is Santi more dangerous, more effective, than he was when he arrived? Not really. If anything, it seems he's regressed. Is that more of a Gio problem or a Santi problem? I'm trending towards the former.
I don’t think Ned needs to go necessarily and I don’t seem him as Timber. He played one year and I identify him more with RSL. People have been on Gio for years and I was always a fence sitter. Benching players for attitude is for the lower levels where Gio use to coach. At this level, its on the coach and it finally caught up to him with players saying what many fans have said for years. The excuses have been many, stadium remodel, COVID, bad schedules, injuries. We’ve had budget coaches, a college coach, USL coach. It’s time to go big and the excuses have run out.
This news doesn't surprise me. You could see the body language for awhile.
I think it's simple. He's a 10 or even an 8 in a 4-3-3. He is not a winger. I repeat, not a winger. Why has he regressed? Because he doesn't want to play winger because he really doesn't do what a winger does best - take on guys in the final third, cross or shoot, create his own shot.
Moreno's skill set is excellent touch and dribbling and good passer and he can shoot from in front of the goal outward.
Along comes Evander when Moreno was already a good 10 for the club. Evander doesn't have the pace that Moreno has, and for my money I would have liked to see Evander's pick as an actual winger. But, we have Evander, who is all right but is not as electric as a Moreno in the middle, in my opinion, just from pace and dribble alone. I suppose you could use them both as 8s in a 4-3-3.
If I were Moreno, I'd be pissed too to be used as a winger when his future really is as a 10 or an 8.
It was in
And Evander is an 8. He's said so himself. I'd be open to experimenting with Santi in the CAM role with Evander and Chara behind him. But, even if Santi isn't a winger, he's one of our better players on the wing. He's better there than Loria. He's often better than Asprilla before October. He was better than Yimmi last season and has been this season by default. He's better than a broken Blanco. And our forwards are mediocre to terrible too.
I've said elsewhere that we keep bringing in talented players, then play them out of position because, even though it isn't their natural or preferred position, they're still the best option there. We play Diego Chara as a 6 when he's an 8 (still one of the best 6s in the league...). We play Evander as a 10 when he's an 8. We tried playing Williamson as a 10 (admittedly his original position) when he's an 8 (at the MLS level). We played Nagbe as a 9 or 10 when he's an 8. We've played Blanco as a winger when he's a 10. We played Asprilla as a 9. We played Valeri as a 10 until we had to play him higher up, essentially as a second striker, when his defensive deficits and lack of pace started catching up with him, and nobody else could score a freaking goal. We've been playing Mosquera as a winger. We play Niezgoda as a lone forward. I know some of this is due to injuries but a lot of it is just poor decisions.
This club seems obsessed with signing box-to-box midfielders, then expecting them to score tons of goals or win lots of duels and tackles. It's ridiculous. Or just thinking sheer talent (or in the case of Melano, speed) translates into technical ability. Too many of our players lack the required mentality, whether that's creativity, cooperation, aggressiveness, leadership, communication, discipline....
That said, players have to be positionally flexible to an extent and everyone should be defending. Everyone should be able to take a decent shot when the opportunity arises. They're paid to try even when it seems futile and they're pissed off. But, I guess we get what we pay for.
I’m curious why you say Evander is an 8. I know that’s where he played in Denmark but he plays like a prototypical number 10. He does not have the work rate or physical presence to be an 8. His best attributes are his vision and technical ability to play any pass he wants, and his ability to score. That’s a 10 to me... Where did he say he was an 8? I feel like I remember him saying something different.
And we’ve always played Williamson as an 8 outside of a few games here and there out of necessity
A quick review of some videos and transcripts hasn't found the quote I'm looking for but I'm confident in my recollection. I just see him more as a transition player than a more purely attacking player, a shuttler. I admittedly don't think he's strong enough on defense to be the best at 8. Williamson has had a learning curve there too. You're right that he's good on the ball, dribbling, in possession, and is good at passing. Those are qualities of a good 8 as well. His work rate may be more about where and how he's being asked to play now than his general disposition. I hope that's the case. He's got 5 goals so far, which is respectable, especially under the circumstances, but I'm not that blown away by his attacking prowess so far.
CAMs/10s are arguably a bit antiquated, which we ran into with Valeri, so this might be a bit of a pointless discussion. It's a position where it's important to defend as well. Maybe Evander is better at pressing than winning tackles, so 10 could be a better fit than 8 for him. I'm mostly just saying it's weird how we keep bringing players in who started at one position, then try move them into another instead of just signing players with a history at that position. Also weird how sometimes we don't try to move players to other positions when they might perform better there.
And I don't want to overstate brief experiments with players out of positions indicates some kind of trend with a particular player. You're right that Williamson didn't get many looks outside the 8. Again, it's the trend of signing players like him who started in one position, then putting them in another. Sometimes it works though. I feel like Spencer thought Diego Chara was going to be more of a 10, or at least more of an attacking 8. That was a long time ago though...
100% correct statement on everything
I agree with about 98 percent. After seeing him all these years, I'd say Asprilla is more of a 9, actually, and Blanco was effective as a winger. Maybe they saw Santi like Blanco was on the wing, but Santi really can't cross, especially on the left side, whereas Blanco could take guys to the endline and cross or shoot.
Wut? Dude definitely played as a winger in Colombia (and basically fought with the coach/whined his way out of América on his way to the Timbers).
Well, if you say he is a winger, then he isn't that good for the reasons I've stated above.
Well, Moreno is Columbian and I believe that Gio favors players who like him are of Italian ancestry, especially the Argentines.
Which is why PTFC have had issues since Valeri, a fellow Italian by descent, left the club.
My theory is, Gio doesn't connect with players like Moreno, and might even have some skin in the game when it comes to the Argentina v. Columbian soccer rivalry.
And there is the historically wrought history between Venezuela and Columbia to consider as well.
Just a thought.
I recommend an emergency episode of "Soccer Made in Portland" podcast, focused on the Moreno story, its many potential implications and what's led up to all this turmoil. It's available on many podcast apps as well as via The Oregonian: https://www.oregonlive.com/podcasts/2023/07/soccer-made-in-portland-podcast-reaction-to-santiago-morenos-transfer-request.html
I listened to a recent episode, within the last week, and the SMIP guys really came off as Gio apologists. Admittedly one data point. But they just regurgitated Gio’s post-match comments about players not giving their all without even asking questions about Gio’s leadership. It seems like PTFC is far enough along on this skid that SMIP should be turning their gaze, at least a bit of side eye, at Gio instead of just amplifying Gio throwing players under the bus. I thought it was really weak and unbalanced.
Yeah, that wasn't my takeaway, they described PTFC as a ship that has already sunk.
That’s the way I heard it. Gio apologists when the thing is falling apart in front of their eyes. Ryan not so bad, but Rifer > ridiculous.
I listen every week. The hosts, Ryan Clark and Chris Rifer, have been increasingly critical of the play and failure to bring in new players. Today’s episode is very pointed about how Moreno going public points to deeper problems, including Gio’s leadership. They also discuss whether he’ll be fired. Lots of perspective and context for how the team arrived at this point.