Still not great but I'll focus on some bright spots.
-Three in the back seems to be working better than four. Not perfect, but better and we someone in defense to be organizing the back line and holding the line accountable. If someone steps up to be that leader I think we'll see improvement.
-Jona had some bite that we haven't seen prime Seba. We need more of that from the team.
Three at the back would have been great if the stupid fucking manager would have stuck with it. I have no idea why he thought it was a good idea to change was seemed to be working okay - it wasn't dominating the game, but it was working pretty well. There was no reason to change. And yet here we are, with a clueless manager doing stupid things for no reason. And it's costing the team a lot.
Also keep in mind that weeks with three games are always tough, especially when the final two games are only three days apart (like Wed. and Sat. this week). The rotation needed in the starting eleven and subs is a significant challenge.
I mean it was “more of the same” in one way - a few brief defensive lapses led to goals against.
But aside from that this was a totally different team than I’ve seen lately. For the most part (not 100.0% of course but for the most part), tonight the Timbers looked and played like they actually wanted to be there. Like they cared. Like they gave a flying F about winning.
And I’ll take that over what we’ve seen most of the season so far.
What annoys me the most is Neville in post game saying that we lost because of individual errors and the Minnesota keeper. The second one maybe, but Phil… we are the first team in MLS HISTORY to give up multiple goals in 10 games straight. That is outrageously terrible. That is not individual errors, that is tactics. Last game we had the Mabiala thing yeah, but this game we were lucky to not concede more goals. This team does not know how to clog up passing lanes and put pressure on the ball. We drop our line and do not track runners. It honestly feels like we’re coached to only pressure someone if they have the ball, because if there’s a player open who doesn’t have the ball, we just don’t bother marking them at all, and that gives them an easy target to pass to. It’s not that the players aren’t playing with enough intensity (that is a big problem too), but more that they don’t seem to be told what to do on the field without the ball. And Phil doesn’t seem to recognize it, which makes me feel that it won’t get any better. This isn’t about the defenders, this is about the ENTIRE team needing to know how defend. Defense starts with the forwards, not the defenders. And none of them know how to do that.
Formation was good, I hope we keep playing it, but please play Evander as a 10 in a 3-4-1-2 and not next to Chara in a 3-4-3. It doesn’t work, he’s not an 8 in that formation. Ayala played great, he should be starting over Paredes imo, Paredes was quite poor both on offense and defense this game and hasn’t been that good overall this year (18 touches, 5/8 accurate passes, 0 tackles, 1/3 ground duels won… woof). Taking Ayala off and shifting Evander back I don’t think lost us the game because we weren’t playing well before that, but it didn’t help. Asprilla was rough at wingback, his defense was very poor and he didn’t do much on offense.
But really to me the players are not to blame, this just felt like more of the same to me. We scored a great first goal but it never felt like it would last. No off the ball movement on offense, and no defensive organization on defense. Missing Moreno hurt but having him on the field likely wouldn’t have made the difference with the way Phil has us playing. Ref was terrible but again, also not why we lost. We got very lucky that they didn’t review the pk shout on Kamal Miller. We had a few chances to equalize at the end, but I’ll be honest, until we stop leaking goals, getting points here and there won’t really feel like much
"What annoys me the most is Neville in post game saying that we lost because of individual errors and the Minnesota keeper."
If we've learned anything at all about him this season, it's that Tactical Genius Phil Neville will never, ever take responsibility for anything going wrong. It's always either his players, either not playing hard enough or making mistakes, or the other team's players playing better. If they'd just play perfectly and play super hard, TGPN's vision would be realized and the Timbers would be good! Just listen to him!
I think a 3-4-3 works defensively. Last night the two forwards were running their butts off trying to apply pressure up top in the 3-4-1-2. And Minnesota worked through it without too much problem. With two wings it balances out and makes it harder to pass through, imo. Evander would work as an 8 if you had a guy like Antony on the right to stretch the field in a 3-4-3. I agree that Paredes really struggled. It was tough for him to find outlets. Moreno would be good in that role. Not that the 3-4-1-2 didn't work. Rodriguez, or Mora or Mosquera put in their chances, Phil looks like a genius ;)
I'll give Minnesota credit, they played hard. They were physical. And for the most part, the Timbers battled, too. Phil seems like he is still figuring the team out, and we're way past that point. We need results now.
Two goals a game is given up is unacceptable. I think you have to look everywhere, and I would probably start at the keeper position.
We were never in a 3-4-1-2. We were in a 3-5-2. Look at the midfield 3 heat map. Evander was mostly center left. Hardly stepping out to an advanced position. It was ayala who was center and he didn't go forward either. The problem wasn't the formation, it was the execution of the formation. Ayala should have been center left and Evander should have been pushed center and in front of ayala and Paredes. That way he could become a quick outlet and link between the midfield and forwards. The point of a two striker system is so you don't not isolate your striker. Especially when you are under pressure. It leads to quick turnovers as soon as you get on the ball. Look at this Stat, what does it tell you.
Paredes had 18 touches 5/8 passing with 63% completion. Ayala had 42 touches 16/24 and 64% completion. That's a struggle to link up and connect with the forwards. If you look at Evander heat map you will see he was mostly on the left and lined with the midfield 5. He wasn't a link between play and that's why we struggled. The only thing that we got right was the quick direct passes on turnover. That's exactly what you want in a two forward formation. Quick counters to the forwards, but if you can't find those opportunities, you need someone to get on the ball and transition forward. It forces defenders to peel off and leave their space, allowing lanes for your forwards and wingbacks.
yeah, I knew it was a 3-5-2. I don't know what I was thinking there!
It seemed like they were set up to counter, but they didn't know exactly where to spring the trap to get the turnover. What I saw were the forwards running hard and covering a ton of ground. It seemed kinda pointless. Instead, Phil should say chill forwards and invite them in and then make it impossible to get through the middle of the field and force some long balls over the top to win the ball back, or force the ball into a place on the field where you can spring a trap. I seem to remember a few times they swarmed in the middle but had trouble winning the ball. Yes, coaching! No one seems to be on the same page.
Yes, moving Evander centrally would have been good, and that could be thought of as a 3-4-1-2 or a 3-5-2 with two dms. I think Evander mostly has a free role, anyway, but if he is not on the ball a lot, then we do struggle.
I'm just tired of the experimentation each week and want to see some results.
Well said. I have been saying the same thing for years about our pressing. It's been an issue from gio to now.
I have also been calling for the 3-4-1-2 formation with Evander further up the field to link with mora and Jonathan. But the players in that midfield 4 need to win their duels. Like you said, Paredes didn't do that. Ayala and chara are my first choices in that midfield duo. If you also look at masquera, he has completed only 24% of his crosses. That is not great when a majority of his attacking prowess is crosses around the box. That leads me to believe it's time to give Moreno a shot at the RWB. If you look at his heat map against SJ, he was tracking way back on defense. If you look at his stats this year in comparison to JDM, Moreno is beating him in tackles, blocked shots, aerial duels won, ground duels won, successful dribbles, and dribbled past him. (Not allowing players to dribble past him) as for JDM he is beats him in interception and clearances. Which makes sense since he has been deeper in a 4 back system. But with a 3 back system and us looking to maintain possession and put pressure higher up, Moreno would be better in that RWB position, until JDM steps it up and matures in his defensive responsibilities. Because I can recount at least 3 goals that have come from JDM ball watching and not tracking his runner.
Mosquera has a 24% crosser rating on the year. Mosquera also has been caught ball watching on multiple goals conceded this year.
Moreno has actually played very well this year on both sides of the ball. He has been playing the RM role and has one of the highest ratings on the squad. In the rm role he has the same responsibilities as a RWB. It is worth a chance to see how he does. Caden Clark played as a RB and he had a better game than mosquera. He used to play as a 10. Not only is it a coaches job to adjust the formation and tactics to fit the opponent, but it is also the coaches job to find solutions if all pieces don't fit. So you look at the players attributes and see where they can be most effective.
If you've paid any attention to my posts I have wanted Mosquera to take a seat for a long time.
If Moreno could learn how to cross, he might make a good wing back. Do we have to wait for him to get better in that department while the forwards are starved of service? I could totally see coach saying hey Santi, you're playing wingback, and he says ok. And then he keeps cheating in toward the middle of the field like some kind of gravitational pull has taken hold leaving the wide area alone. Asprilla could work there, though. He can cross, and score. I've said E Miller could work there many times. The guy gets judged playing the left all the time but the guy scored a goal against SKC on the right and then he gets benched. In fact, I'd put E Miller at the top of the list. Moreno for me is more of an 8, mainly because he's not technical on the outside like he is on the inside. Miller is going to play defense and clear headers out on the back side. I can't see Moreno doing that. Mosquera is a liability on defense and not worth the occasional offense.
Couldn't disagree more that this was "more of the same old 2024 Timbers." I saw a team that fought all the way through, showing none of the listlessness that infected the team from weeks past all the way through the first half of Wednesday's match. And we got through their defenses just as often and just as dramatically as they got through ours, just without the positive result we needed and they got. That's the way the ball bounces sometimes. I do think it was a mistake to take Mora off, but you won't find me calling for Phil's head on a plate. Watching a loss like this was more exciting than watching some of Gio's wins. Let's give him a full season.
Full season? No. His subs and tactics lost us the game. He should have gone like for like and kept the same formation. He could have gone mora for Nathan. Antony for asprilla. Williamson for Evander. E.miller for araujo. Chara for ayala or chara. Instead he went to the back 4 that has made us the second worst defensive team in the league. As soon as he did, we gave up two goals again. He confused tired players for "formation not working" when it was just needing to be like for like subs. That's bad coaching.
Yeah, it was a blunder to try to get overly defensive 1-1 and then he shot himself in the foot because he couldn’t make changes to bring on much firepower after they conceded again. You can maybe sit back 2 goals up and bring on a guy like Antony to try to get in behind but he switched it up and the timbers really didn’t threaten too much till they went down a man and they were throwing everyone forward. 1 goal down with 30+ minutes left wasn’t a time to make that shift. I think even Mora for Antony and keeping Rodriguez up top would have made more sense. Williamson should have come on for Paredes.
Phil should count himself lucky if he makes it halfway if these results continue. You don’t spend the many millions of dollars in players and get a new coach to have much much worse results.
I really think us fans just better buckle up and realize Phil is going to be here the entire season. Merritt is not the firing type. Had any of us did 1/10th the stuff Wilkinson or Golub did, we'd he given our last paycheck and a box to clean out our stuff. Phil is going to have to get caught handing out dope to Lincoln high school kids to get fired this year. Merritt had to swallow his pride with DeBella and he's not doing it twice.
It's not even that MP "isn't the firing type". It's more that no team will fire a coach after 14 games; to put it in a phrase a lot of people hate, that's just not a big enough sample size. He'll be given at least a season, unless they get to like July and they're still without a win and things are catastrophic.
He never should have been hired, but he was, and we're stuck with him now until probably at least this time next season, unfortunately. But you know who is fireable? The rest of the coaching staff, starting with defensive "coach" Liam Ridgewell.
I don’t know who we should add but we still don’t appear to have the right defensive players. Kamal Miller is the only new defender and he gets beaten on occasion in each game. Fans already knew Mabiala was a liability. Zach McGraw might return to good play. Zuparic always battles and provides better cover than most of our players. Even when Bravo returns to the lineup, we still have a very similar defense to the one that couldn’t stop the other team most of last year. Araujo is getting more playing time and perhaps he will work out. Mosquera needs to play midfielder, but even then his defensive efforts are inconsistent. Equally important is that the Timbers can’t escape their defensive third for huge stretches of matches.
Last week three in the back didn’t work and changed at half. This time 3 at the backed worked but he shouldn’t have changed the formation. All of a sudden Minn had a ton of space. If we let a team operate endlessly, freely in front of our 18, they will score guaranteed. Are we the only team in the league that can’t high press? Minn spent no time in front of their goal. I love the runs in behind but the fact is we couldn’t control the ball and they scored 2 goals again. Phil usually plays front foot, behind or ahead, breath of fresh air compared to past coaches. But he played defense and this one is on him. The three back was awesome in the first half and we had each others back. Minn had no answer.
I have to disagree. if you look at the stats and even the eye test, the 3 back system was working last week. we were dominating possession. we had complete control and limited SJ chances. The problem was not from the run of play. SJ scored from a set piece and from a complete gaff by Mabiala. other than those issues we were not exposed at all. when we changed to the 4 back system it pushed Evander forward and put extra defensive cover in the midfield with Paredes. If Paredes would play much more like a holding midfielder, he would be pivotal to the teams success.
reading comments from Reddit and the game thread, I agree that Evander needs to be around the box, Chara and Paredes need to lock down the defensive duties in the midfield. I also saw someone say Moreno and Antony should play as wing backs. that is an interesting idea and i would actually like to see how that would work out.
The fundamental problem is defensive organization. The constant shifting of formation and players won't help with that. For me it starts with how do we defend if we have Mosquera and Bravo. Mosquera's defensive abilities in a back four is the root cause, that affects everything else.
The option would appear to be a back 3, however I don't think we have the players to play that system.
Ultimately it comes down to our roster construction, where we acquired players without a real understanding of who they are and how they fit in the Timbers system because what is the Timbers system of play?
Without changes to the roster and I don't think we have room to make changes, then we are kinda stuck with what we have and I don't think changing coaches solves anything right now.
This was always going to be somewhat of a work-in-progress season, for sure. As you allude to, Ned inherited a mess from GW, and that will take several windows to untangle. But a competent coach would be able to take this pile of players and make something slightly more coherent out of it than what we've seen so far this year. Just look at what Miles Joseph did in his short stint last year.
I'm not saying Miles should have gotten the job full time, necessarily, but it's a manager's job to maximize the talent he has at his disposal, not to try to manage to a style his team can't play in hopes they'll someday figure it out. Phil doesn't seem willing to do that - he's just shuffling the same guys around and yet trying to play them in a way they aren't really capable of, and when he hits on something that sort of works - three at the back - he doesn't really trust it and then he changes it again, and the wheels fall off.
you didn't mention the biggest impact on the game...phil's tactical change to four at the back, after which we gave up two goals. otherwise, good recap.
Yeah we didn’t shift to a four until Araujo came off in the 85th minute. When the subs came in the 58th minute, Chara came on for Paredes (like for like) and Miller came on for Mora. Asprilla moved up to striker next to Jonathon and Miller played wingback, which just doesn’t fit him at all. If we had shifted to a back four, Mosquera would’ve been higher, Asprilla or Jonathon would’ve been on the wing, Eric would’ve been deeper, and Araujo would’ve been playing like a right back, and I saw none of those things
The games continue to be interesting at least. I kind of like Phil, in spite of myself—and I can see how he charmed Merritt’s rich kid pants off. At this point though (if there was any doubt from when we were all pissed he got hired) he has to prove he can not suck. Because he sucks. This was going to be a tough one, no doubt, but Phil himself left a point out there.
League-wide it was pretty underwhelming coach hires. But man this looks silly. Most especially when it finally looks like you’re going to be serious about the roster after several years. Somehow freaking Colorado looks much smarter than us. And that’s an ownership that literally doesn’t care.
miles joseph proved his tactical chops and had the team working hard. from where we were to where he took us (albeit one point short), miles was the obvious choice.
Gotta agree on this. Miles was the right, and obvious choice. Could he have sustained what he was doing over a full season? Idk, maybe, maybe not, but he deserved the chance to prove he could after what he showed last year.
I'm not sure I would call him the "obvious" choice, but he absolutely should have been on any shortlist and, in hindsight, should have been a much stronger candidate than the one that ended up getting the job.
I will go first, but am not happy with Phil. One at least they play attacking soccer that is generally fun to watch. After years of boring gio ball that left me wanting to gouge my eyes out Soni didn't have to watch such crap, it gives me some hope. But then he pulls crap like last night which I believe cost us points and I am in a better then we were but not good enough place.
I don't find being the second team with most goals against as entertaining soccer, thus, this is no better. We do not play well. We score goals, but we don't play well, we play actually quite defensively (without defending!) If all I care is for scoring then I'll watch basketball. And I would argue that at least 2 results this year were 100% Evander, 0% coaching. We are lucky to be where we are.
Gio was bad the last 1-2 years, but the team had some very good moments before that, and we reached a final, won a trophy.... etc, and he always took responsibility... If not gone shortly, Phil has a lot to do to match that. So I am in the no better than before, let's go for another option.
Articulate and well spoken? Do you watch the post game? No look at camera, finger inside the nose over and over (if you watch few of them you will notice), takes no responsibility, ever.... I disagree strongly.
I mean, of course they're gonna sue, that's just standard business. But!
"DaBella also claims that the sponsorship deal with the Timbers would have generated about $75 million in revenue for the company over its first three years and a total of $358 million over 10 years."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA c'mon now
How on earth would they have made $25M/year in additional revenue from this deal?
Also, from the suit, we can find out how much they paid:
"DaBella said it paid the Timbers a total of $1.8 million in two payments of $900,000 in December and in February. But those payments together only accounted for half of the total sponsorship amount, making the full deal worth $3.6 million."
So it can probably be assumed that Tillamook paid somewhat less than that? Not sure if they just paid a make-good on the balance DaBella would have owed, or if they struck their own deal or what, but Tillamook probably got a bargain here.
On the plus side for DaBella, I have lived in Oregon for 27 years now, most in the Portland area. I worked literally across the street from one of their main offices for 14 years, and have driven by that office twice daily for the last 3+ years at my latest job, and I had never heard of them before this year.
But now that I know more about them as a company, if I ever have a need for (looks it up again) roofing services, I will never go anywhere near them for that service.
So things changed maybe when subs were made, not the formation which I originally thought. The 3 back at the start of the game in my opinion clogged the middle and increased the width making the flanks less penetrable. I don’t think Minn got much unless they managed to get in the corners. When individuals got beat; there was coverage. I thought Phil was indirectly criticizing our goal keeper when he was complimenting theirs in the post game comments. Actually, their first goal was from a very sharp angle. I think Phil has instilled fight by trying to get a new generation of players, post Valeri and Blanco, to play for their team, the best city and supporters. This somewhat young team has to get that and stop the dumb mistakes and will see what happens. Im tired if the word “Hope” also but Hopefully, we’ll see good stuff.
Still not great but I'll focus on some bright spots.
-Three in the back seems to be working better than four. Not perfect, but better and we someone in defense to be organizing the back line and holding the line accountable. If someone steps up to be that leader I think we'll see improvement.
-Jona had some bite that we haven't seen prime Seba. We need more of that from the team.
Three at the back would have been great if the stupid fucking manager would have stuck with it. I have no idea why he thought it was a good idea to change was seemed to be working okay - it wasn't dominating the game, but it was working pretty well. There was no reason to change. And yet here we are, with a clueless manager doing stupid things for no reason. And it's costing the team a lot.
Also keep in mind that weeks with three games are always tough, especially when the final two games are only three days apart (like Wed. and Sat. this week). The rotation needed in the starting eleven and subs is a significant challenge.
It's the same challenge that every team in the league faces.
I mean it was “more of the same” in one way - a few brief defensive lapses led to goals against.
But aside from that this was a totally different team than I’ve seen lately. For the most part (not 100.0% of course but for the most part), tonight the Timbers looked and played like they actually wanted to be there. Like they cared. Like they gave a flying F about winning.
And I’ll take that over what we’ve seen most of the season so far.
Oddly I'll take that loss over the Seattle loss. They went down fighting. It didn't look like a hopeless cause.
100%.
What annoys me the most is Neville in post game saying that we lost because of individual errors and the Minnesota keeper. The second one maybe, but Phil… we are the first team in MLS HISTORY to give up multiple goals in 10 games straight. That is outrageously terrible. That is not individual errors, that is tactics. Last game we had the Mabiala thing yeah, but this game we were lucky to not concede more goals. This team does not know how to clog up passing lanes and put pressure on the ball. We drop our line and do not track runners. It honestly feels like we’re coached to only pressure someone if they have the ball, because if there’s a player open who doesn’t have the ball, we just don’t bother marking them at all, and that gives them an easy target to pass to. It’s not that the players aren’t playing with enough intensity (that is a big problem too), but more that they don’t seem to be told what to do on the field without the ball. And Phil doesn’t seem to recognize it, which makes me feel that it won’t get any better. This isn’t about the defenders, this is about the ENTIRE team needing to know how defend. Defense starts with the forwards, not the defenders. And none of them know how to do that.
Formation was good, I hope we keep playing it, but please play Evander as a 10 in a 3-4-1-2 and not next to Chara in a 3-4-3. It doesn’t work, he’s not an 8 in that formation. Ayala played great, he should be starting over Paredes imo, Paredes was quite poor both on offense and defense this game and hasn’t been that good overall this year (18 touches, 5/8 accurate passes, 0 tackles, 1/3 ground duels won… woof). Taking Ayala off and shifting Evander back I don’t think lost us the game because we weren’t playing well before that, but it didn’t help. Asprilla was rough at wingback, his defense was very poor and he didn’t do much on offense.
But really to me the players are not to blame, this just felt like more of the same to me. We scored a great first goal but it never felt like it would last. No off the ball movement on offense, and no defensive organization on defense. Missing Moreno hurt but having him on the field likely wouldn’t have made the difference with the way Phil has us playing. Ref was terrible but again, also not why we lost. We got very lucky that they didn’t review the pk shout on Kamal Miller. We had a few chances to equalize at the end, but I’ll be honest, until we stop leaking goals, getting points here and there won’t really feel like much
"What annoys me the most is Neville in post game saying that we lost because of individual errors and the Minnesota keeper."
If we've learned anything at all about him this season, it's that Tactical Genius Phil Neville will never, ever take responsibility for anything going wrong. It's always either his players, either not playing hard enough or making mistakes, or the other team's players playing better. If they'd just play perfectly and play super hard, TGPN's vision would be realized and the Timbers would be good! Just listen to him!
sigh.
I think a 3-4-3 works defensively. Last night the two forwards were running their butts off trying to apply pressure up top in the 3-4-1-2. And Minnesota worked through it without too much problem. With two wings it balances out and makes it harder to pass through, imo. Evander would work as an 8 if you had a guy like Antony on the right to stretch the field in a 3-4-3. I agree that Paredes really struggled. It was tough for him to find outlets. Moreno would be good in that role. Not that the 3-4-1-2 didn't work. Rodriguez, or Mora or Mosquera put in their chances, Phil looks like a genius ;)
I'll give Minnesota credit, they played hard. They were physical. And for the most part, the Timbers battled, too. Phil seems like he is still figuring the team out, and we're way past that point. We need results now.
Two goals a game is given up is unacceptable. I think you have to look everywhere, and I would probably start at the keeper position.
We were never in a 3-4-1-2. We were in a 3-5-2. Look at the midfield 3 heat map. Evander was mostly center left. Hardly stepping out to an advanced position. It was ayala who was center and he didn't go forward either. The problem wasn't the formation, it was the execution of the formation. Ayala should have been center left and Evander should have been pushed center and in front of ayala and Paredes. That way he could become a quick outlet and link between the midfield and forwards. The point of a two striker system is so you don't not isolate your striker. Especially when you are under pressure. It leads to quick turnovers as soon as you get on the ball. Look at this Stat, what does it tell you.
Paredes had 18 touches 5/8 passing with 63% completion. Ayala had 42 touches 16/24 and 64% completion. That's a struggle to link up and connect with the forwards. If you look at Evander heat map you will see he was mostly on the left and lined with the midfield 5. He wasn't a link between play and that's why we struggled. The only thing that we got right was the quick direct passes on turnover. That's exactly what you want in a two forward formation. Quick counters to the forwards, but if you can't find those opportunities, you need someone to get on the ball and transition forward. It forces defenders to peel off and leave their space, allowing lanes for your forwards and wingbacks.
yeah, I knew it was a 3-5-2. I don't know what I was thinking there!
It seemed like they were set up to counter, but they didn't know exactly where to spring the trap to get the turnover. What I saw were the forwards running hard and covering a ton of ground. It seemed kinda pointless. Instead, Phil should say chill forwards and invite them in and then make it impossible to get through the middle of the field and force some long balls over the top to win the ball back, or force the ball into a place on the field where you can spring a trap. I seem to remember a few times they swarmed in the middle but had trouble winning the ball. Yes, coaching! No one seems to be on the same page.
Yes, moving Evander centrally would have been good, and that could be thought of as a 3-4-1-2 or a 3-5-2 with two dms. I think Evander mostly has a free role, anyway, but if he is not on the ball a lot, then we do struggle.
I'm just tired of the experimentation each week and want to see some results.
Well said. I have been saying the same thing for years about our pressing. It's been an issue from gio to now.
I have also been calling for the 3-4-1-2 formation with Evander further up the field to link with mora and Jonathan. But the players in that midfield 4 need to win their duels. Like you said, Paredes didn't do that. Ayala and chara are my first choices in that midfield duo. If you also look at masquera, he has completed only 24% of his crosses. That is not great when a majority of his attacking prowess is crosses around the box. That leads me to believe it's time to give Moreno a shot at the RWB. If you look at his heat map against SJ, he was tracking way back on defense. If you look at his stats this year in comparison to JDM, Moreno is beating him in tackles, blocked shots, aerial duels won, ground duels won, successful dribbles, and dribbled past him. (Not allowing players to dribble past him) as for JDM he is beats him in interception and clearances. Which makes sense since he has been deeper in a 4 back system. But with a 3 back system and us looking to maintain possession and put pressure higher up, Moreno would be better in that RWB position, until JDM steps it up and matures in his defensive responsibilities. Because I can recount at least 3 goals that have come from JDM ball watching and not tracking his runner.
I'm not sure Moreno would work as a wing back. He can't really cross all that well.
Mosquera has a 24% crosser rating on the year. Mosquera also has been caught ball watching on multiple goals conceded this year.
Moreno has actually played very well this year on both sides of the ball. He has been playing the RM role and has one of the highest ratings on the squad. In the rm role he has the same responsibilities as a RWB. It is worth a chance to see how he does. Caden Clark played as a RB and he had a better game than mosquera. He used to play as a 10. Not only is it a coaches job to adjust the formation and tactics to fit the opponent, but it is also the coaches job to find solutions if all pieces don't fit. So you look at the players attributes and see where they can be most effective.
If you've paid any attention to my posts I have wanted Mosquera to take a seat for a long time.
If Moreno could learn how to cross, he might make a good wing back. Do we have to wait for him to get better in that department while the forwards are starved of service? I could totally see coach saying hey Santi, you're playing wingback, and he says ok. And then he keeps cheating in toward the middle of the field like some kind of gravitational pull has taken hold leaving the wide area alone. Asprilla could work there, though. He can cross, and score. I've said E Miller could work there many times. The guy gets judged playing the left all the time but the guy scored a goal against SKC on the right and then he gets benched. In fact, I'd put E Miller at the top of the list. Moreno for me is more of an 8, mainly because he's not technical on the outside like he is on the inside. Miller is going to play defense and clear headers out on the back side. I can't see Moreno doing that. Mosquera is a liability on defense and not worth the occasional offense.
Couldn't disagree more that this was "more of the same old 2024 Timbers." I saw a team that fought all the way through, showing none of the listlessness that infected the team from weeks past all the way through the first half of Wednesday's match. And we got through their defenses just as often and just as dramatically as they got through ours, just without the positive result we needed and they got. That's the way the ball bounces sometimes. I do think it was a mistake to take Mora off, but you won't find me calling for Phil's head on a plate. Watching a loss like this was more exciting than watching some of Gio's wins. Let's give him a full season.
Full season? No. His subs and tactics lost us the game. He should have gone like for like and kept the same formation. He could have gone mora for Nathan. Antony for asprilla. Williamson for Evander. E.miller for araujo. Chara for ayala or chara. Instead he went to the back 4 that has made us the second worst defensive team in the league. As soon as he did, we gave up two goals again. He confused tired players for "formation not working" when it was just needing to be like for like subs. That's bad coaching.
Yeah, it was a blunder to try to get overly defensive 1-1 and then he shot himself in the foot because he couldn’t make changes to bring on much firepower after they conceded again. You can maybe sit back 2 goals up and bring on a guy like Antony to try to get in behind but he switched it up and the timbers really didn’t threaten too much till they went down a man and they were throwing everyone forward. 1 goal down with 30+ minutes left wasn’t a time to make that shift. I think even Mora for Antony and keeping Rodriguez up top would have made more sense. Williamson should have come on for Paredes.
Phil should count himself lucky if he makes it halfway if these results continue. You don’t spend the many millions of dollars in players and get a new coach to have much much worse results.
I really think us fans just better buckle up and realize Phil is going to be here the entire season. Merritt is not the firing type. Had any of us did 1/10th the stuff Wilkinson or Golub did, we'd he given our last paycheck and a box to clean out our stuff. Phil is going to have to get caught handing out dope to Lincoln high school kids to get fired this year. Merritt had to swallow his pride with DeBella and he's not doing it twice.
It's not even that MP "isn't the firing type". It's more that no team will fire a coach after 14 games; to put it in a phrase a lot of people hate, that's just not a big enough sample size. He'll be given at least a season, unless they get to like July and they're still without a win and things are catastrophic.
He never should have been hired, but he was, and we're stuck with him now until probably at least this time next season, unfortunately. But you know who is fireable? The rest of the coaching staff, starting with defensive "coach" Liam Ridgewell.
Phizzy has been riding on luck for a very, very long time.
I don’t know who we should add but we still don’t appear to have the right defensive players. Kamal Miller is the only new defender and he gets beaten on occasion in each game. Fans already knew Mabiala was a liability. Zach McGraw might return to good play. Zuparic always battles and provides better cover than most of our players. Even when Bravo returns to the lineup, we still have a very similar defense to the one that couldn’t stop the other team most of last year. Araujo is getting more playing time and perhaps he will work out. Mosquera needs to play midfielder, but even then his defensive efforts are inconsistent. Equally important is that the Timbers can’t escape their defensive third for huge stretches of matches.
Last week three in the back didn’t work and changed at half. This time 3 at the backed worked but he shouldn’t have changed the formation. All of a sudden Minn had a ton of space. If we let a team operate endlessly, freely in front of our 18, they will score guaranteed. Are we the only team in the league that can’t high press? Minn spent no time in front of their goal. I love the runs in behind but the fact is we couldn’t control the ball and they scored 2 goals again. Phil usually plays front foot, behind or ahead, breath of fresh air compared to past coaches. But he played defense and this one is on him. The three back was awesome in the first half and we had each others back. Minn had no answer.
I have to disagree. if you look at the stats and even the eye test, the 3 back system was working last week. we were dominating possession. we had complete control and limited SJ chances. The problem was not from the run of play. SJ scored from a set piece and from a complete gaff by Mabiala. other than those issues we were not exposed at all. when we changed to the 4 back system it pushed Evander forward and put extra defensive cover in the midfield with Paredes. If Paredes would play much more like a holding midfielder, he would be pivotal to the teams success.
reading comments from Reddit and the game thread, I agree that Evander needs to be around the box, Chara and Paredes need to lock down the defensive duties in the midfield. I also saw someone say Moreno and Antony should play as wing backs. that is an interesting idea and i would actually like to see how that would work out.
The fundamental problem is defensive organization. The constant shifting of formation and players won't help with that. For me it starts with how do we defend if we have Mosquera and Bravo. Mosquera's defensive abilities in a back four is the root cause, that affects everything else.
The option would appear to be a back 3, however I don't think we have the players to play that system.
Ultimately it comes down to our roster construction, where we acquired players without a real understanding of who they are and how they fit in the Timbers system because what is the Timbers system of play?
Without changes to the roster and I don't think we have room to make changes, then we are kinda stuck with what we have and I don't think changing coaches solves anything right now.
This was always going to be somewhat of a work-in-progress season, for sure. As you allude to, Ned inherited a mess from GW, and that will take several windows to untangle. But a competent coach would be able to take this pile of players and make something slightly more coherent out of it than what we've seen so far this year. Just look at what Miles Joseph did in his short stint last year.
I'm not saying Miles should have gotten the job full time, necessarily, but it's a manager's job to maximize the talent he has at his disposal, not to try to manage to a style his team can't play in hopes they'll someday figure it out. Phil doesn't seem willing to do that - he's just shuffling the same guys around and yet trying to play them in a way they aren't really capable of, and when he hits on something that sort of works - three at the back - he doesn't really trust it and then he changes it again, and the wheels fall off.
you didn't mention the biggest impact on the game...phil's tactical change to four at the back, after which we gave up two goals. otherwise, good recap.
Yeah we didn’t shift to a four until Araujo came off in the 85th minute. When the subs came in the 58th minute, Chara came on for Paredes (like for like) and Miller came on for Mora. Asprilla moved up to striker next to Jonathon and Miller played wingback, which just doesn’t fit him at all. If we had shifted to a back four, Mosquera would’ve been higher, Asprilla or Jonathon would’ve been on the wing, Eric would’ve been deeper, and Araujo would’ve been playing like a right back, and I saw none of those things
Am I missing something? It didn't change until the 85th minute or so when Araujo went out.
it cost us, big time!
The games continue to be interesting at least. I kind of like Phil, in spite of myself—and I can see how he charmed Merritt’s rich kid pants off. At this point though (if there was any doubt from when we were all pissed he got hired) he has to prove he can not suck. Because he sucks. This was going to be a tough one, no doubt, but Phil himself left a point out there.
League-wide it was pretty underwhelming coach hires. But man this looks silly. Most especially when it finally looks like you’re going to be serious about the roster after several years. Somehow freaking Colorado looks much smarter than us. And that’s an ownership that literally doesn’t care.
miles joseph proved his tactical chops and had the team working hard. from where we were to where he took us (albeit one point short), miles was the obvious choice.
Gotta agree on this. Miles was the right, and obvious choice. Could he have sustained what he was doing over a full season? Idk, maybe, maybe not, but he deserved the chance to prove he could after what he showed last year.
I'm not sure I would call him the "obvious" choice, but he absolutely should have been on any shortlist and, in hindsight, should have been a much stronger candidate than the one that ended up getting the job.
Honest question, not intended to start an argument: what do you see about Phil that you "kind of like"?
I will go first, but am not happy with Phil. One at least they play attacking soccer that is generally fun to watch. After years of boring gio ball that left me wanting to gouge my eyes out Soni didn't have to watch such crap, it gives me some hope. But then he pulls crap like last night which I believe cost us points and I am in a better then we were but not good enough place.
I don't find being the second team with most goals against as entertaining soccer, thus, this is no better. We do not play well. We score goals, but we don't play well, we play actually quite defensively (without defending!) If all I care is for scoring then I'll watch basketball. And I would argue that at least 2 results this year were 100% Evander, 0% coaching. We are lucky to be where we are.
Gio was bad the last 1-2 years, but the team had some very good moments before that, and we reached a final, won a trophy.... etc, and he always took responsibility... If not gone shortly, Phil has a lot to do to match that. So I am in the no better than before, let's go for another option.
He is very charismatic articulate and well spoken. Good fashion sense. Good attitude. Says the right things. These are likeable qualities.
They are, I guess, but none of them are actually about soccer, which is kind of a problem?
Only a problem if you ignore the hoodie he rocked at the Minnesota game - soccer what's that? ;)
Articulate and well spoken? Do you watch the post game? No look at camera, finger inside the nose over and over (if you watch few of them you will notice), takes no responsibility, ever.... I disagree strongly.
In case any of you think there's a chance of seeing Messi play here, even if we get Miami at home next year, I don't ever think it would happen.
A good example of why: https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/40206568/messi-suarez-busquets-travel-miami
welp, so much for the idea of selling our seats for that game and covering our entire season ticket cost...hahaha.
It’s now official: We live in the stupidest timeline.
https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2024/05/dabella-sues-portland-timbers-after-team-drops-kit-sponsor-deal.html?outputType=amp
I mean, of course they're gonna sue, that's just standard business. But!
"DaBella also claims that the sponsorship deal with the Timbers would have generated about $75 million in revenue for the company over its first three years and a total of $358 million over 10 years."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA c'mon now
How on earth would they have made $25M/year in additional revenue from this deal?
Also, from the suit, we can find out how much they paid:
"DaBella said it paid the Timbers a total of $1.8 million in two payments of $900,000 in December and in February. But those payments together only accounted for half of the total sponsorship amount, making the full deal worth $3.6 million."
So it can probably be assumed that Tillamook paid somewhat less than that? Not sure if they just paid a make-good on the balance DaBella would have owed, or if they struck their own deal or what, but Tillamook probably got a bargain here.
On the plus side for DaBella, I have lived in Oregon for 27 years now, most in the Portland area. I worked literally across the street from one of their main offices for 14 years, and have driven by that office twice daily for the last 3+ years at my latest job, and I had never heard of them before this year.
But now that I know more about them as a company, if I ever have a need for (looks it up again) roofing services, I will never go anywhere near them for that service.
So things changed maybe when subs were made, not the formation which I originally thought. The 3 back at the start of the game in my opinion clogged the middle and increased the width making the flanks less penetrable. I don’t think Minn got much unless they managed to get in the corners. When individuals got beat; there was coverage. I thought Phil was indirectly criticizing our goal keeper when he was complimenting theirs in the post game comments. Actually, their first goal was from a very sharp angle. I think Phil has instilled fight by trying to get a new generation of players, post Valeri and Blanco, to play for their team, the best city and supporters. This somewhat young team has to get that and stop the dumb mistakes and will see what happens. Im tired if the word “Hope” also but Hopefully, we’ll see good stuff.