Yeah she was excellent in the second half, especially her covering work since Kling was getting beat like a drum and Izzy kept getting caught upfield. Sometimes you can tell pretty quickly when CBs have it just by how they carry themselves and she's clearly gonna be good (and already is).
I'm happy that Thorns play Whitecaps in Vancouver. I hope Sinc plays that entire match. I mean, how cool for Whitecaps Elite Girls to get to play the GOAT at home? Hoping Fleming also plays with her.
1) Ken might just have found a venue his "tactics" can succeed in.
2) I think it's difficult - and "risky" in the sense of having too much confidence in form or fit - to infer anything more from this than "CA is nowhere near the level of even a midtable NWSL club".
3) That said, the Thorns didn't look especially sharp. The midfield was the usual muddled mess, and the forward line, as you point out, was what happens when you put CFs on the wings and sit your wingers. So...
4) Fun for all, but I'm not sure this shows us a way to beat Washington this Saturday...
They're not going to beat good teams like Washington without some good xG luck until they improve pretty substantially in multiple areas.
I'm not going to get too upset about results the rest of the season, but Gale HAS to have shown that he can make this team look functional by the end of it or else I'm not really sure what they do with him. Which is the place they put themselves in by hiring him needlessly midseason instead of letting the season play out, so I don't really have any sympathy for Leblanc. If he's truly not a competent coach, he'll be her cross to bear.
They looked much better — if not as good as six games in a row might suggest— during that streak. Schedule was part of it, but they were undeniably playing much better. Specifically in the Seattle and Spirit home games.
He really just played the 3-4-3 in summer cup tho....and combined with no Coffey/Fleming/Soph, I don't think there was all that much to take from it. The biggest thing I noticed in the Bay game is that (intentionally or not), the shape was much more similar to what it was under Norris than it was in the first 6 games under Gale. Single pivot with 5 high vs. double pivot with four high. 4-3-3 instead of 4-2-3-1. Finishing my Thorns portion of my recap tonight so I'll see if the pass maps bear that out.
Hmm the shape kinda seems like it has aspects of both, just by the eye test....but I'm not really sure why. He wasn't really using our actual wingers in the summer cup either (mostly bc we didn't have many F options.) He was having Kling and Mackenzie play those outside channels if I remember correctly....Mackenzie was used more as a winger but then we had 3 9's again, no? One fullback is still always high, so it still kinda looks like a 3 back a lot of the time. Lately, the whole team often compresses the lines horizontally so much, that it's SO easy for the other team to bypass like 2 lines (at least) from a simple ball through or over. I noticed they looked really compressed last night, and remember seeing that in the summer cup as well.
But honestly, that's just a guess because I haven't been able to figure out what he doing since he's been here....the beginning it was most obvious because the changes he made from Norris generally was...double pivot Hina, and keep fullbacks lower. I dunno...this season has been a tactical shitshow so it makes me doubt what I even *think* I'm seeing...
Would def love to see what you come out with, because it's all kinda clear as mud for me...
No, we were not sharp. Some of that is the weird lineup, but CA outshot us by a LOT and we're lucky to have come away with a 3-1 win. You can't count on a brace from Sinc to win matches, and CA had their chances in the 2nd half to make this one close.
You can count on Sinc if you give her that kind of time and space, tho. Old and slow, she can sink those kinds of putts in her sleep. Helps if your keeper makes rec league mistakes, too.
Rob hasn’t done anything to prove wrong the belief he’s not doing a good job. Our midfield is a mess regardless of who is playing in it. So it’s definitely a coaching issue. There doesn’t seem to be a proper structure or setup. He talked about having a good shape last night but I’m not really sure what the shape was. Tbh thorns were lucky America isn’t good at scoring because they had their chances. Also, what’s his deal with not playing wingers? He played three 9’s yesterday. I thought we established that Izzy is not a wide player. On the positive side it’s good to finally have an aerial threat in Turner. We’ve been missing that for years . That should help set pieces hopefully
I didn't manage to watch the game on TV until the 75th minute. The announcer kept saying that it looked like the Thorns were only interested in seeing the game out. What appeared to me is that the Thorns were trying to help CA score a second goal.
Seeing a game out means passing accuracy, i.e. possession. The Thorns' passing game simply sucked. Over hit. Passes easily intercepted. Off the mark. If CA was in the NWSL, they'd likely be very near the bottom.
I'm happy to hear that the Thorns finally scored on a corner kick. It seems like years since the last one.
From the eye test ( haven’t seen the data) it seems like the thorns passes have gotten progressively worse. It’s not just the sloppiness and the giveaways it’s the way people are not on the same page. You would see Marie make a run and literally no one would be around. Players coming in and just having preventable giveaways. Not being able to identify a clear style of play or shape is so frustrating. The talent of the team is better than what they are getting from Rob. It was great to see Turner score.
Can someone just ask Rob what style of play they are playing? Or I guess trying to play. There is nothing clear about his coaching or what they are trying to do. Everyone is just so confused about what is happening. It reminds me of the dysfunction of vlatko and his time in the USWNT
It looks like preseason! When talented players ALL look poor....it's the coaching. Lately, it looks worse than Norrisball honestly. With Gale, I honestly have no idea what kind of football he's trying to play...
The style (if you can call it that) of soccer practiced by Gale's predecessor and former boss, Mike Norris. Characterized by rigidity in coaching and confusion on the part of the players about their individual roles.
I'm just not sure what the Thorns are trying to do philosophically. Are they a playing out of the back, possession team? If so they're quite bad at it! Are they a counter-attacking, counter-pressing team? If so they need a better shape off the ball and a better co-ordinated press.
I would hope we have a better idea after Gale became the permanent coach but if anything it's become more muddled. I actually left yesterday's game really unenthused, because the Thorns were just *bad*...outshot for the fifth consecutive game, and outside of Gotham, it's not like they're being outshot by big powerhouses.
Well I think this is the issue and has been all season- They have a midfield full of generally un-athletic technicians who want to have the ball, but the shape is vertical. They then play nines on the wing so the vertical doesn't work either. They can't play short and build because everyone is pushed high, but the long ball is ineffective because they don't have anybody who's a threat in behind outside of Smith. Defensively, I have no idea what the shape is and I'm not sure they do either. It's incredibly uncoordinated and easy to break down because the gaps between the forwards and the midfielders are huge. It looks like a zone in basketball where no one knows where they're supposed to be.
Gale talked about finding the "balance" after the Bay match....but that doesn't really mean anything if there isn't clear direction.
Of our 4 best midfielders (Coffey, Sugita, Fleming, Moultrie), I am reluctant to say anything about the midfielders that the Thorns should or shouldn't have without seeing them play under a different (better) coach. I think the four of them are talented players, and should be kept. Three of them start, one for depth off the bench. A bad coach would make any team look bad no matter how much talent it had.
I am tired about the long-ball stuff, especially because it surprises no one on the opposition. Now and then, sure. But nearly all the time, it's just wasteful of possession. We don't have a Tierna Davidson that can hit those accurately whenever the time is right, scaring the crap out of the opponents back line.
So, is that a roster problem or a tactics problem?
Although I'd love to find a way to best utlize the strengths of what we have, my hunch is that it's a roster problem, and it really starts in the midfield. I think changing the roster would allow us to get clearer on tactics.
To my mind, at least one of our 4 unathletic technicians has to go. It can't be Coffey (untouchable), and I don't think it should be Sugita (so versatile).
So that brings me to Moultrie and/or Fleming.
I think Moultrie would be the easier to move because she's younger, probably cheaper, and still has upside. I keep thinking about Utah, but I'm not sure she fits there for the talent they have and what they're doing. Europe might actually be the best move.
OTOH, Fleming is in her prime and has the pedigree but hasn't wowed for most of her time at Chelsea or Portland. I do believe that with the right circumstance should would be a top-level player. I mean, we've all seen her impact for Canada, and close to half of that starting XI (Sheridan, Gilles, Lawrence, Buchanan) could start anywhere in the world.
IF we had a coach that had a clear identity, you could make a better argument that it's a roster problem. Take Giraldez, for instance, who has completely iced Hatch out in Washington because she's not versatile enough to do what he wants to do. I personally still think that a good coach should be able to make an incredibly talented midfield like that work, but I haven't seen it from Gale. To my eyes, he's playing to the opposite of what all of them are good at.
But also, regardless of style and coach, all four can't all start and still play where they're best. I don't think it's the end of the world to rotate, but if they do decide they have to get rid of one of them (I don't think this is super likely), my vote would be Moultrie. I know she's still only 18, but the current version of her is such a limited player. She's real good when she's locked in, but she doesn't really offer anything defensively, no pace, can't play wide, and ---while this is more me judging than fact-- doesn't seem to work anywhere near as hard out of possession as Fleming and Hina. I was really frustrated with her against Bay.
Yeah, Liv is starting to become pretty one dimensional tbh. I think she has a really good trait in her ability to make second-player runs but she's becoming ineffective in the #10 position because it's easier to dispossess her.
Although she's not alone, Moultrie seems to be regressing this year. It hurts to think how her development as a player, between her age 16-18 years, has been stunted by poor coaching, and where she could be now if she'd been in a better situation.
Yeah, I would be delighted to find a better 10 and let Moultrie go elsewhere tbh. Would've loved to trade her for Sentnor! Does she wanna go live at the beach a while and we can trade for Shaw? But even still....I feel like Liv is overvalued within the club and is going to start for as long as she's here, because she's literally been waiting years behind Sinc. I'd be fine with finding a v good int'l 10, and having Liv be a sub, but I just don't see that happening. The only way we upgrade that position is if Liv leaves...
I should say that think Hina would be a good 10, but we would need a mobile and athletic 8 who could do a lot of the dirty work in the middle so Hina was free to just create. I don't think Jessie is that player, nor do we have that player on this roster.
As it stands though...our midfield is just not well-thought out for what each of their strengths are. Liv HAS to be central, and she HAS to have 0 defensive duties....she is a pretty limited player already at 18 because of her pace and her (lack of) offball movement, and doesn't work anywhere but as a central 10. And, even then, she's not starting 10 level. Not for a lot of teams, tbh.
I really don’t think the ten is Hina’s best position because she’s best playmaking from deep positions and she doesn’t actually *want* to stay high. I also don’t think we need a ten: we already have one too many high level midfielders to fit them all into a 4-3-3, that’s why Liv gets shunted wide.
There’s really no reason why a good coach can’t make Fleming-Coffey-Hina work. Fleming’s not big, but she’s an insane athlete and should be able to play as a shuttling 8 just like she does for Canada…..which is why it’s so frustrating that they can’t figure it out.
one of the few good Gale adjustments was taking Hina and putting her deep. One reason why the Thorns passing has been worse in recent weeks has been changing that imo
Yeah I felt the same last night. My partner and I were sitting in GA last night rather than our usual STH seats in 113, and he literally fell asleep in the second half because of how little action there was in CA's defensive half. It's just BORING and unfun to watch. We both were just exactly that...unenthused and not confident it's going to change anytime soon.
I also don't understand why he allergic to playing actual wingers. Seems like we can deduce he isn't trying to be a counterattacking team, I guess, since we're not using quick wingers? Also, Sinc doesn't allow for a coordinated press. So then...yeah, what is it? We certainly aren't playing ANY sort of possession ball...nor do we have the defensive until to really do that.
I agree that it appears even more muddled than it was before the Summer Cup...when he changed the shape from what it was prior. Being outshot by a bad CA side is embarrassing, but moreso, the product on the field that is being broadcast is embarrassing for the club.
From Taylor Vincent: "Rob Gale on Morgan Weaver's return to play timeline 'She's definitely getting closer. We're continuing to build... she's made good progress into the training, starting to get some opposition working there.'"
Wouldn't be the *worst* thing in the world if she just takes the year off tbh. Get her extension done (hopefully already is) and we'll see ya next year.
In Gale's presser last night, he said "after her substantial surgery and injury"...so that seems to indicate it wasn't just a small tweak or easy surgery. I don't know why they only put her on the D45 list....45 days from her injury (May 1st) would have been June 14th. Instead, it's been 127 days! I guess they hoped she'd be back at the end of the season, so it wasn't an SEI....
But yeah, if they knew it was a substantial injury in May, I question why the hell weren't we trying to do more to get Soph help on offense (besides a couple rookies) in this summer window. It's really her all by herself.
Sounds to me that the injury wasn't so bad initially but her recovery has taken longer than expected, which is unfortunately the norm in woso. Maybe also because there isn't a middle ground between SEI and 45 day?
And, again, I think it's fine to wait to make big moves until the offseason......but then they have to actually make them lol.
Yeah, that's what I meant...that they probably hoped she'd be back before the season ended (May is still p early!) and there isn't an in-between designation.
Sounds like she had a serious surgery, though, imo...only 45 days after any "substantial" knee surgery because of a substantial injury (his words)? Seems unlikely. More like somewhere between 45 days and SEI. Even Rocky had a grade 2 MCL sprain and missed like 6-7 weeks...
I am ok waiting also. The season is lost atp...I'm hopeful they stink it up enough to shed some FO/coaching weight but not so bad that they have players questioning the direction of things completely lol...
Kozal's not going to see a lot of time there. Tampa have a very good keeper. Then again, maybe Tampa's keeper won't be there much longer. She's really showed out in her first two matches.
Yeah, didn't she just win keeper of the month or something? I'm kinda surprised she went there, of all teams....no point in her going on loan to also sit on the bench. I'm sure at least 1 of the other USL teams could use a keeper upgrade so she could start.
I believe their keeper is Kaylan Marckese, who has already been around the block. Confident that she's the only player who can say they've both started a Champion's league knockout stage match for Arsenal and played in the USLSL!
No, they've been playing Ashley Orkus, and she's the closest thing there is to a breakout star in USLSL. 13 saves, including on a PK, and only 1 concession (against Dallas, who were definitely the better side in the opening match). She's single-handedly kept Tampa in both matches. Orkus is 25, was 3-time winner of SEC Keeper of the Year. She's from Alabama, and the USLSL is trying to build with some attention to having players on rosters with some sort of "regional" connection.
My hunch is that Orkus has played well enough to get a gig somewhere else come January, but I have no info for that. I've just watched both of Tampa's games so far and she's the only reason they're even in them. The PbP crew narratives have focused on her play, in particular. BTW, USLSL are using some of the same folks as NWSL. I heard Gary Bailey on one of the Carolina matches.
I think it means the Thorns would like to keep her, but wanna let her develop her minutes, since being a #3 in NWSL means very little (if any) time. Otherwise, they could've just waived her and let her sign with USL. She seems to have some decent skill, so I'm down for a loan for her!
Honestly think they should've loaned Izzy out to a USL team as well, so she could actually get some development minutes in her actual position. She can't hit the broad side of a barn as it stands, so it'd be nice to see if that would improve with more consistent minutes in the 9.
ROFL. Last night (during 2nd half stoppage time), the announcer claimed that she hit the ball with a bend on it trying to hit the top corner of the goal. (The shot went into the stands). During all replays I focus on what the ball does after it is struck (focusing on those pentagons). There was no way that ball was bending...and what crossed my mind was, "She can't hit the board side of a barn."
I think the players that don’t get consistent minutes should definitely go on loan. The likes of Katoa, Izzy ( they need to see if she has an ability to score), Payton because she doesn’t get minutes. Hirst if she’s staying because you could definitely see she hasn’t played. Whether it’s the A league or Usl they need to develop elsewhere. They won’t get all that much game time this season
Bixby went on loan when she was younger. If you are the primary backup, I don’t think it makes sense Linnehan seems to be playing quite a bit. I’m just not sure about whether Izzy is an NWSL player
With Izzy it’s been two seasons and she’s not been a major impact. But Gale plays her out of position so I don’t know how to judge that. Now Turner is here and she can play as the backup 9. With Kozal if the plan was to have several gks it was better to loan her out earlier in the year instead of just collecting gks. It’s clear they weren’t going to play her. With Payton I know she was slightly injured but why isn’t she playing now? I don’t know if it’s Robs stubbornness not to play two wingers or he doesn’t trust her yet. Has she played a full game yet? I don’t think so. Not even in throw away games like the summer cup. In a team that needs wingers desperately I don’t why she hasn’t featured more
I think Hirst HAS to stay...because we have no backup for Sam and she needs to be relieved at the ends of games, if possible.
Otherwise, yeah if we have other players who are kinda stuck behind starters, they should go develop elsewhere. Loans can be revoked from the club at any point, so if there was an injury, we could get them back immediately.
Was she? I was sitting in GA last night and borderline falling asleep because all of the action was on the other side of the pitch lol... I couldn't really see well enough either. Well...that's good news! She's big! I hope she's somewhat mobile too.
Just heard this last night, and it seemed appropriate to what we've discussed about our midfield full of "unathletic technicians."
Pat Riley, who knows a thing or two about winning championships as a coach and as an executive, also knows a bit about team chemistry and roster construction. He's credited with coining "overlap is a silent killer."
Famously, Pat also cautioned about the "Disease of Me" or the "Disease of More" spreading on championship teams -- players sometimes want more money, a larger role, or other things that show they're beginning to put "me" about "we."
Calvin Booth, who put together the championship-winning Denver Nuggets, has recited the "overlap is a silent killer" insight.
Booth points to when JJ Reddick and Chris Paul formed the Lob City Clippers backcourt and says "Both have the requisite skills for the position, and both were kind of undersized," therefore lacking the ability to space the floor (despite both being excellent catch-and-shoot shooters) and neither of them being great perimeter defenders (though Paul was better than Reddick, and both worked hard).
At the beginning of this season, I pointed to the historical example of George McGinness and Dr J, two great individual scorers, playing together in Philadelphia. The Sixers finally really clicked when they traded McGinness for Bobby Jones, a totally different kind of forward who put defense first and didn't need the ball to succeed.
While I get the value of having players whom you can rotate during a long season with a crowded schedule, especially given the reality of injuries and unavailability, I am back to thinking that our midfield situation needs to be addressed, because we're dealing with the "silent killer" known as "overlap."
In my opinion this is an apt analogy with some differences consider soccer. First being that the out-fielders (i.e. not counting GK) is ten players, twice as many as five in basketball. That's to say that looking at the midfield by itself excludes the defenders and forwards the midfield has to provide "service" to.
Where I appreciate the analogy is that, in soccer, one of the concerns has to do with whether these three or four all make the same runs, and are they organized in such a way that one of them are clearly defensive minded and the other two offensive minded. Watching the Thorns, I get concerned that Coffey is too often too far forward and therefore not helping the back line enough -- although I love watching her involved in the attack.
Fleming, on the other hand, should be the one 75% focused in serving the forwards.
I can't tell whether it's the coaching or a failure to communicate amongst the midfielders or communication in real time between the lines. Or maybe Gale talks to much, and therefore the players can't communicate amongst themselves.
On that note, a few years ago when it first became possible for Formula One drivers to able to talk to the people in the pits by radio, a driver named Kimi Räikkönen was driving a car that most times was not competitive. But in one race he took the lead with only a handful of laps to go. People watching on TV (like me) are enabled to hear some of these radio communications. At one point Kimi said to the people on his team in the pits, "Stop talking to me. I know what I'm doing." It was hilarious, given that Räikkönen had in prior seasons won the championship. I wonder if Gale talks too much during the game.
Yep. I feel like she's always been underrated. But she's much much better than D'Aquila, and it's a good opportunistic way to bring up the floor with our F depth. She can play backup 9, but she can also play wider, and I think she's played in midfield too? She's a good utility F that I much prefer over D'Aquila (who isn't at all.) She's also got experience in the league...Not counting Sinc, we have a pretty young and inexperienced front line and she's a good middle. Still think we'd need to go big in the offseason with a very clear starting winger....but then I'd be sufficiently happy with our F corps.
Hmmm...prob just a bitter Dash commenter. She seems like a really nice (and talented!) gal who got traded from her hometown team (who was winning everything at the time) to go mire in the pit that is Houston without so much as being given a head's up before she was already traded. And that franchise is dismantling. Their coach literally disappeared and hasn't been back in months! I'd prob have a bad attitude also.
She got better when she went to KC also. She kinda reminds me of a Shea Groom, but without the assault lol. Really good aerial presence and able to find those spaces. Aggressive. A good utility forward that can play multiple positions and can still perform well being a bench player. Fast. Underrated a bit. Experience at a bargain. Certainly better and more flexible than D'Aquila imo. I'd swap 'em in a heartbeat.
I see the pregnant part as a secondary consideration. Alex knows that she's no longer the player she used to be. Pregnant or not, she knows when she's seen her last WNT appearance. For quite a while, she hasn't done a lot for her club team either. I give kudos to those that leave when the writing is clearly on the wall, which is to say retiring on their own terms rather than being shown the door.
Or we could say that she got pregnant at the perfect time.
I think so too. She needs a slower pace and more room, but if she has those things she can still be deadly. Plus, she still clearly loves the game and loves teaching-by-doing. It would be a great thing for her, Vancouver, the NSL, Canada, everybody.
Not really a bad idea if your still somewhat capable as a role player and not pregnant and mothering or being a wife. Alex is in such a different place altogether.
Is a 2nd tier women's league anything like other sports where you get a ton of fast, athletic, out-of-control players who can't harness the finesse needed to go further? Because that's USL Championship in a nutshell. I've seen a dozen yellows, three reds, and two coaches carded in a single match.
It was an article about ESPN on EI articles. I thought it was going to promote information exchange, but it sounds like they are trying to replace writers
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to downplay it...I just meant I thought someone posted some asshole comment or something. I didn't see the article mentioned, but from what I can infer, I agree all of it is bullshit.
Obaze deserves some love for her work in the 2nd half to keep it from getting to 3-2.
Yeah she was excellent in the second half, especially her covering work since Kling was getting beat like a drum and Izzy kept getting caught upfield. Sometimes you can tell pretty quickly when CBs have it just by how they carry themselves and she's clearly gonna be good (and already is).
Sinc's celebration was one for the ages, but I really loved her finding Muller after the second goal and saying to her "That was really good!"
One of my favorite things about Sinclair is her excitement and praise for other players.
I'm happy that Thorns play Whitecaps in Vancouver. I hope Sinc plays that entire match. I mean, how cool for Whitecaps Elite Girls to get to play the GOAT at home? Hoping Fleming also plays with her.
I'm going to need the Thorns to visit the Christine Sinclair Community Center while they are up in Vancouver.
Muller's acquisition and diming Sinc was maybe the game highlight for me, competing with Liv and Reilyn's connection on that beautiful corner.
So...
1) Ken might just have found a venue his "tactics" can succeed in.
2) I think it's difficult - and "risky" in the sense of having too much confidence in form or fit - to infer anything more from this than "CA is nowhere near the level of even a midtable NWSL club".
3) That said, the Thorns didn't look especially sharp. The midfield was the usual muddled mess, and the forward line, as you point out, was what happens when you put CFs on the wings and sit your wingers. So...
4) Fun for all, but I'm not sure this shows us a way to beat Washington this Saturday...
They're not going to beat good teams like Washington without some good xG luck until they improve pretty substantially in multiple areas.
I'm not going to get too upset about results the rest of the season, but Gale HAS to have shown that he can make this team look functional by the end of it or else I'm not really sure what they do with him. Which is the place they put themselves in by hiring him needlessly midseason instead of letting the season play out, so I don't really have any sympathy for Leblanc. If he's truly not a competent coach, he'll be her cross to bear.
The Old Gringo!
What do you think is the difference between the winning streak and now?
The schedule. The only arguably decent team we beat in that run was Washington at home 2-1.
They looked much better — if not as good as six games in a row might suggest— during that streak. Schedule was part of it, but they were undeniably playing much better. Specifically in the Seattle and Spirit home games.
It's really been the tweaks he's made starting with Summer Cup that has brought them down into a whole new level of suck...
He really just played the 3-4-3 in summer cup tho....and combined with no Coffey/Fleming/Soph, I don't think there was all that much to take from it. The biggest thing I noticed in the Bay game is that (intentionally or not), the shape was much more similar to what it was under Norris than it was in the first 6 games under Gale. Single pivot with 5 high vs. double pivot with four high. 4-3-3 instead of 4-2-3-1. Finishing my Thorns portion of my recap tonight so I'll see if the pass maps bear that out.
Hmm the shape kinda seems like it has aspects of both, just by the eye test....but I'm not really sure why. He wasn't really using our actual wingers in the summer cup either (mostly bc we didn't have many F options.) He was having Kling and Mackenzie play those outside channels if I remember correctly....Mackenzie was used more as a winger but then we had 3 9's again, no? One fullback is still always high, so it still kinda looks like a 3 back a lot of the time. Lately, the whole team often compresses the lines horizontally so much, that it's SO easy for the other team to bypass like 2 lines (at least) from a simple ball through or over. I noticed they looked really compressed last night, and remember seeing that in the summer cup as well.
But honestly, that's just a guess because I haven't been able to figure out what he doing since he's been here....the beginning it was most obvious because the changes he made from Norris generally was...double pivot Hina, and keep fullbacks lower. I dunno...this season has been a tactical shitshow so it makes me doubt what I even *think* I'm seeing...
Would def love to see what you come out with, because it's all kinda clear as mud for me...
No, we were not sharp. Some of that is the weird lineup, but CA outshot us by a LOT and we're lucky to have come away with a 3-1 win. You can't count on a brace from Sinc to win matches, and CA had their chances in the 2nd half to make this one close.
You can count on Sinc if you give her that kind of time and space, tho. Old and slow, she can sink those kinds of putts in her sleep. Helps if your keeper makes rec league mistakes, too.
Yep. Which is why I think she should head north and play in the Canadian league until she's ready to hang em up for good.
Rob hasn’t done anything to prove wrong the belief he’s not doing a good job. Our midfield is a mess regardless of who is playing in it. So it’s definitely a coaching issue. There doesn’t seem to be a proper structure or setup. He talked about having a good shape last night but I’m not really sure what the shape was. Tbh thorns were lucky America isn’t good at scoring because they had their chances. Also, what’s his deal with not playing wingers? He played three 9’s yesterday. I thought we established that Izzy is not a wide player. On the positive side it’s good to finally have an aerial threat in Turner. We’ve been missing that for years . That should help set pieces hopefully
I didn't manage to watch the game on TV until the 75th minute. The announcer kept saying that it looked like the Thorns were only interested in seeing the game out. What appeared to me is that the Thorns were trying to help CA score a second goal.
Seeing a game out means passing accuracy, i.e. possession. The Thorns' passing game simply sucked. Over hit. Passes easily intercepted. Off the mark. If CA was in the NWSL, they'd likely be very near the bottom.
I'm happy to hear that the Thorns finally scored on a corner kick. It seems like years since the last one.
From the eye test ( haven’t seen the data) it seems like the thorns passes have gotten progressively worse. It’s not just the sloppiness and the giveaways it’s the way people are not on the same page. You would see Marie make a run and literally no one would be around. Players coming in and just having preventable giveaways. Not being able to identify a clear style of play or shape is so frustrating. The talent of the team is better than what they are getting from Rob. It was great to see Turner score.
" it’s the way people are not on the same page"
"Not being able to identify a clear style of play or shape is so frustrating."
Exactly. Better said than I did.
And it's MID-SEASON!
If you missed the first half, you saw nothing good outside of Obaze and maybe Mueller
Can someone just ask Rob what style of play they are playing? Or I guess trying to play. There is nothing clear about his coaching or what they are trying to do. Everyone is just so confused about what is happening. It reminds me of the dysfunction of vlatko and his time in the USWNT
It looks like preseason! When talented players ALL look poor....it's the coaching. Lately, it looks worse than Norrisball honestly. With Gale, I honestly have no idea what kind of football he's trying to play...
The fans and the players are equally as confused. Let this Rob experience end this season. New coach is needed
And I imagine it reminds us all of Norrisball.
I hate to ask (because it makes me feel uninformed), but what is "Norrisball?"
The style (if you can call it that) of soccer practiced by Gale's predecessor and former boss, Mike Norris. Characterized by rigidity in coaching and confusion on the part of the players about their individual roles.
Oh, yeah. That guy. I agree. He's also on my "need to clean house" list.
Can anyone give me a good reason for why Sarina Wiegman would be at the Thorns game last night? (Photo on LeBlanc’s Instagram stories)
Schadenfreude?
If she shows up at other national teamer matches I think we can say examining the competition.
I'm just not sure what the Thorns are trying to do philosophically. Are they a playing out of the back, possession team? If so they're quite bad at it! Are they a counter-attacking, counter-pressing team? If so they need a better shape off the ball and a better co-ordinated press.
I would hope we have a better idea after Gale became the permanent coach but if anything it's become more muddled. I actually left yesterday's game really unenthused, because the Thorns were just *bad*...outshot for the fifth consecutive game, and outside of Gotham, it's not like they're being outshot by big powerhouses.
Well I think this is the issue and has been all season- They have a midfield full of generally un-athletic technicians who want to have the ball, but the shape is vertical. They then play nines on the wing so the vertical doesn't work either. They can't play short and build because everyone is pushed high, but the long ball is ineffective because they don't have anybody who's a threat in behind outside of Smith. Defensively, I have no idea what the shape is and I'm not sure they do either. It's incredibly uncoordinated and easy to break down because the gaps between the forwards and the midfielders are huge. It looks like a zone in basketball where no one knows where they're supposed to be.
Gale talked about finding the "balance" after the Bay match....but that doesn't really mean anything if there isn't clear direction.
Of our 4 best midfielders (Coffey, Sugita, Fleming, Moultrie), I am reluctant to say anything about the midfielders that the Thorns should or shouldn't have without seeing them play under a different (better) coach. I think the four of them are talented players, and should be kept. Three of them start, one for depth off the bench. A bad coach would make any team look bad no matter how much talent it had.
I am tired about the long-ball stuff, especially because it surprises no one on the opposition. Now and then, sure. But nearly all the time, it's just wasteful of possession. We don't have a Tierna Davidson that can hit those accurately whenever the time is right, scaring the crap out of the opponents back line.
So, is that a roster problem or a tactics problem?
Although I'd love to find a way to best utlize the strengths of what we have, my hunch is that it's a roster problem, and it really starts in the midfield. I think changing the roster would allow us to get clearer on tactics.
To my mind, at least one of our 4 unathletic technicians has to go. It can't be Coffey (untouchable), and I don't think it should be Sugita (so versatile).
So that brings me to Moultrie and/or Fleming.
I think Moultrie would be the easier to move because she's younger, probably cheaper, and still has upside. I keep thinking about Utah, but I'm not sure she fits there for the talent they have and what they're doing. Europe might actually be the best move.
OTOH, Fleming is in her prime and has the pedigree but hasn't wowed for most of her time at Chelsea or Portland. I do believe that with the right circumstance should would be a top-level player. I mean, we've all seen her impact for Canada, and close to half of that starting XI (Sheridan, Gilles, Lawrence, Buchanan) could start anywhere in the world.
IF we had a coach that had a clear identity, you could make a better argument that it's a roster problem. Take Giraldez, for instance, who has completely iced Hatch out in Washington because she's not versatile enough to do what he wants to do. I personally still think that a good coach should be able to make an incredibly talented midfield like that work, but I haven't seen it from Gale. To my eyes, he's playing to the opposite of what all of them are good at.
But also, regardless of style and coach, all four can't all start and still play where they're best. I don't think it's the end of the world to rotate, but if they do decide they have to get rid of one of them (I don't think this is super likely), my vote would be Moultrie. I know she's still only 18, but the current version of her is such a limited player. She's real good when she's locked in, but she doesn't really offer anything defensively, no pace, can't play wide, and ---while this is more me judging than fact-- doesn't seem to work anywhere near as hard out of possession as Fleming and Hina. I was really frustrated with her against Bay.
Yeah, Liv is starting to become pretty one dimensional tbh. I think she has a really good trait in her ability to make second-player runs but she's becoming ineffective in the #10 position because it's easier to dispossess her.
Although she's not alone, Moultrie seems to be regressing this year. It hurts to think how her development as a player, between her age 16-18 years, has been stunted by poor coaching, and where she could be now if she'd been in a better situation.
Yeah, I would be delighted to find a better 10 and let Moultrie go elsewhere tbh. Would've loved to trade her for Sentnor! Does she wanna go live at the beach a while and we can trade for Shaw? But even still....I feel like Liv is overvalued within the club and is going to start for as long as she's here, because she's literally been waiting years behind Sinc. I'd be fine with finding a v good int'l 10, and having Liv be a sub, but I just don't see that happening. The only way we upgrade that position is if Liv leaves...
I should say that think Hina would be a good 10, but we would need a mobile and athletic 8 who could do a lot of the dirty work in the middle so Hina was free to just create. I don't think Jessie is that player, nor do we have that player on this roster.
As it stands though...our midfield is just not well-thought out for what each of their strengths are. Liv HAS to be central, and she HAS to have 0 defensive duties....she is a pretty limited player already at 18 because of her pace and her (lack of) offball movement, and doesn't work anywhere but as a central 10. And, even then, she's not starting 10 level. Not for a lot of teams, tbh.
I really don’t think the ten is Hina’s best position because she’s best playmaking from deep positions and she doesn’t actually *want* to stay high. I also don’t think we need a ten: we already have one too many high level midfielders to fit them all into a 4-3-3, that’s why Liv gets shunted wide.
There’s really no reason why a good coach can’t make Fleming-Coffey-Hina work. Fleming’s not big, but she’s an insane athlete and should be able to play as a shuttling 8 just like she does for Canada…..which is why it’s so frustrating that they can’t figure it out.
one of the few good Gale adjustments was taking Hina and putting her deep. One reason why the Thorns passing has been worse in recent weeks has been changing that imo
Yeah I felt the same last night. My partner and I were sitting in GA last night rather than our usual STH seats in 113, and he literally fell asleep in the second half because of how little action there was in CA's defensive half. It's just BORING and unfun to watch. We both were just exactly that...unenthused and not confident it's going to change anytime soon.
I also don't understand why he allergic to playing actual wingers. Seems like we can deduce he isn't trying to be a counterattacking team, I guess, since we're not using quick wingers? Also, Sinc doesn't allow for a coordinated press. So then...yeah, what is it? We certainly aren't playing ANY sort of possession ball...nor do we have the defensive until to really do that.
I agree that it appears even more muddled than it was before the Summer Cup...when he changed the shape from what it was prior. Being outshot by a bad CA side is embarrassing, but moreso, the product on the field that is being broadcast is embarrassing for the club.
Kozal loaned to Tampa
(Really gonna need a Weaver update of some sort at some point btw!)
From Taylor Vincent: "Rob Gale on Morgan Weaver's return to play timeline 'She's definitely getting closer. We're continuing to build... she's made good progress into the training, starting to get some opposition working there.'"
https://x.com/tayvincent6/status/1831550271673266450
Sorry, should have been more specific- An update about whether or not they picked up her option, extended her, both, or let her become a FA.
That would be good to know too! I do wonder what Weaver's injury was though, but I also respect her decision to not share it publicly.
Am getting big Zeno's Paradox vibes on Morgan's return in CY '24.
And I really want to be wrong.
Wouldn't be the *worst* thing in the world if she just takes the year off tbh. Get her extension done (hopefully already is) and we'll see ya next year.
In Gale's presser last night, he said "after her substantial surgery and injury"...so that seems to indicate it wasn't just a small tweak or easy surgery. I don't know why they only put her on the D45 list....45 days from her injury (May 1st) would have been June 14th. Instead, it's been 127 days! I guess they hoped she'd be back at the end of the season, so it wasn't an SEI....
But yeah, if they knew it was a substantial injury in May, I question why the hell weren't we trying to do more to get Soph help on offense (besides a couple rookies) in this summer window. It's really her all by herself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceseg_h5kJI
Sounds to me that the injury wasn't so bad initially but her recovery has taken longer than expected, which is unfortunately the norm in woso. Maybe also because there isn't a middle ground between SEI and 45 day?
And, again, I think it's fine to wait to make big moves until the offseason......but then they have to actually make them lol.
Yeah, that's what I meant...that they probably hoped she'd be back before the season ended (May is still p early!) and there isn't an in-between designation.
Sounds like she had a serious surgery, though, imo...only 45 days after any "substantial" knee surgery because of a substantial injury (his words)? Seems unlikely. More like somewhere between 45 days and SEI. Even Rocky had a grade 2 MCL sprain and missed like 6-7 weeks...
I am ok waiting also. The season is lost atp...I'm hopeful they stink it up enough to shed some FO/coaching weight but not so bad that they have players questioning the direction of things completely lol...
Kozal's not going to see a lot of time there. Tampa have a very good keeper. Then again, maybe Tampa's keeper won't be there much longer. She's really showed out in her first two matches.
Yeah, didn't she just win keeper of the month or something? I'm kinda surprised she went there, of all teams....no point in her going on loan to also sit on the bench. I'm sure at least 1 of the other USL teams could use a keeper upgrade so she could start.
I believe their keeper is Kaylan Marckese, who has already been around the block. Confident that she's the only player who can say they've both started a Champion's league knockout stage match for Arsenal and played in the USLSL!
No, they've been playing Ashley Orkus, and she's the closest thing there is to a breakout star in USLSL. 13 saves, including on a PK, and only 1 concession (against Dallas, who were definitely the better side in the opening match). She's single-handedly kept Tampa in both matches. Orkus is 25, was 3-time winner of SEC Keeper of the Year. She's from Alabama, and the USLSL is trying to build with some attention to having players on rosters with some sort of "regional" connection.
Well then I'm really not sure what Kozal will be doing there if they have two starting level keepers already lol
True, but I'm also really not sure what Kozal will be doing HERE since we have 17 starting (?) level keepers already lol
Marckese is coming back from an ACL injury
My hunch is that Orkus has played well enough to get a gig somewhere else come January, but I have no info for that. I've just watched both of Tampa's games so far and she's the only reason they're even in them. The PbP crew narratives have focused on her play, in particular. BTW, USLSL are using some of the same folks as NWSL. I heard Gary Bailey on one of the Carolina matches.
Looks like Kozal is gone, good luck to her and wish her all the best. Now tell us what’s up with Weaver gosh darn it!
On loan to Tampa Bay!
I think it means the Thorns would like to keep her, but wanna let her develop her minutes, since being a #3 in NWSL means very little (if any) time. Otherwise, they could've just waived her and let her sign with USL. She seems to have some decent skill, so I'm down for a loan for her!
Honestly think they should've loaned Izzy out to a USL team as well, so she could actually get some development minutes in her actual position. She can't hit the broad side of a barn as it stands, so it'd be nice to see if that would improve with more consistent minutes in the 9.
"She can't hit the broad side of a barn."
ROFL. Last night (during 2nd half stoppage time), the announcer claimed that she hit the ball with a bend on it trying to hit the top corner of the goal. (The shot went into the stands). During all replays I focus on what the ball does after it is struck (focusing on those pentagons). There was no way that ball was bending...and what crossed my mind was, "She can't hit the board side of a barn."
I think the players that don’t get consistent minutes should definitely go on loan. The likes of Katoa, Izzy ( they need to see if she has an ability to score), Payton because she doesn’t get minutes. Hirst if she’s staying because you could definitely see she hasn’t played. Whether it’s the A league or Usl they need to develop elsewhere. They won’t get all that much game time this season
Bixby went on loan when she was younger. If you are the primary backup, I don’t think it makes sense Linnehan seems to be playing quite a bit. I’m just not sure about whether Izzy is an NWSL player
With Izzy it’s been two seasons and she’s not been a major impact. But Gale plays her out of position so I don’t know how to judge that. Now Turner is here and she can play as the backup 9. With Kozal if the plan was to have several gks it was better to loan her out earlier in the year instead of just collecting gks. It’s clear they weren’t going to play her. With Payton I know she was slightly injured but why isn’t she playing now? I don’t know if it’s Robs stubbornness not to play two wingers or he doesn’t trust her yet. Has she played a full game yet? I don’t think so. Not even in throw away games like the summer cup. In a team that needs wingers desperately I don’t why she hasn’t featured more
I think Hirst HAS to stay...because we have no backup for Sam and she needs to be relieved at the ends of games, if possible.
Otherwise, yeah if we have other players who are kinda stuck behind starters, they should go develop elsewhere. Loans can be revoked from the club at any point, so if there was an injury, we could get them back immediately.
(I actually kinda liked Hirst last night in the very little we saw of her, just cause she was extremely physical lol)
Was she? I was sitting in GA last night and borderline falling asleep because all of the action was on the other side of the pitch lol... I couldn't really see well enough either. Well...that's good news! She's big! I hope she's somewhat mobile too.
Not in any particularly meaningful way at all, but she was definitely a presence defensively.
For sure, if they offer Hirst another contract when the season is over she needs to go to the A league on a loan. For now she’s Coffey’s backup.
"Overlap is a silent killer."
Just heard this last night, and it seemed appropriate to what we've discussed about our midfield full of "unathletic technicians."
Pat Riley, who knows a thing or two about winning championships as a coach and as an executive, also knows a bit about team chemistry and roster construction. He's credited with coining "overlap is a silent killer."
Famously, Pat also cautioned about the "Disease of Me" or the "Disease of More" spreading on championship teams -- players sometimes want more money, a larger role, or other things that show they're beginning to put "me" about "we."
Calvin Booth, who put together the championship-winning Denver Nuggets, has recited the "overlap is a silent killer" insight.
Booth points to when JJ Reddick and Chris Paul formed the Lob City Clippers backcourt and says "Both have the requisite skills for the position, and both were kind of undersized," therefore lacking the ability to space the floor (despite both being excellent catch-and-shoot shooters) and neither of them being great perimeter defenders (though Paul was better than Reddick, and both worked hard).
At the beginning of this season, I pointed to the historical example of George McGinness and Dr J, two great individual scorers, playing together in Philadelphia. The Sixers finally really clicked when they traded McGinness for Bobby Jones, a totally different kind of forward who put defense first and didn't need the ball to succeed.
While I get the value of having players whom you can rotate during a long season with a crowded schedule, especially given the reality of injuries and unavailability, I am back to thinking that our midfield situation needs to be addressed, because we're dealing with the "silent killer" known as "overlap."
In my opinion this is an apt analogy with some differences consider soccer. First being that the out-fielders (i.e. not counting GK) is ten players, twice as many as five in basketball. That's to say that looking at the midfield by itself excludes the defenders and forwards the midfield has to provide "service" to.
Where I appreciate the analogy is that, in soccer, one of the concerns has to do with whether these three or four all make the same runs, and are they organized in such a way that one of them are clearly defensive minded and the other two offensive minded. Watching the Thorns, I get concerned that Coffey is too often too far forward and therefore not helping the back line enough -- although I love watching her involved in the attack.
Fleming, on the other hand, should be the one 75% focused in serving the forwards.
I can't tell whether it's the coaching or a failure to communicate amongst the midfielders or communication in real time between the lines. Or maybe Gale talks to much, and therefore the players can't communicate amongst themselves.
On that note, a few years ago when it first became possible for Formula One drivers to able to talk to the people in the pits by radio, a driver named Kimi Räikkönen was driving a car that most times was not competitive. But in one race he took the lead with only a handful of laps to go. People watching on TV (like me) are enabled to hear some of these radio communications. At one point Kimi said to the people on his team in the pits, "Stop talking to me. I know what I'm doing." It was hilarious, given that Räikkönen had in prior seasons won the championship. I wonder if Gale talks too much during the game.
This is helpful. Thank you for all of it.
Houston Dash continues to be a dumpster fire: https://x.com/theolloydhughes/status/1831785651496484994
(ps- I would sign Kizer now and let D'Aquila go at the end of the season if I were a GM!)
I would go get Kizer too. Aerial threat and someone who is ready to play with Smith now.
Yep. I feel like she's always been underrated. But she's much much better than D'Aquila, and it's a good opportunistic way to bring up the floor with our F depth. She can play backup 9, but she can also play wider, and I think she's played in midfield too? She's a good utility F that I much prefer over D'Aquila (who isn't at all.) She's also got experience in the league...Not counting Sinc, we have a pretty young and inexperienced front line and she's a good middle. Still think we'd need to go big in the offseason with a very clear starting winger....but then I'd be sufficiently happy with our F corps.
I see Debinha, Thorns Slayer, has signed with KC. 2 years + 2027 option. (Have I ever typed "2027" before?)
A commenter saying she had a horrible attitude. Well the new CBA should eliminate these type of events going forward.
Hmmm...prob just a bitter Dash commenter. She seems like a really nice (and talented!) gal who got traded from her hometown team (who was winning everything at the time) to go mire in the pit that is Houston without so much as being given a head's up before she was already traded. And that franchise is dismantling. Their coach literally disappeared and hasn't been back in months! I'd prob have a bad attitude also.
I bet she's off to Europe. The NWSL has uniformly treated her like shit.
Really has. Feel bad for her...I feel like she's a bit underrated, but I've always like her play.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Recall her putting in good shifts with Racing back when they were interesting. That's about all.
She got better when she went to KC also. She kinda reminds me of a Shea Groom, but without the assault lol. Really good aerial presence and able to find those spaces. Aggressive. A good utility forward that can play multiple positions and can still perform well being a bench player. Fast. Underrated a bit. Experience at a bargain. Certainly better and more flexible than D'Aquila imo. I'd swap 'em in a heartbeat.
In case anyone missed Gale's full presser last night:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceseg_h5kJI
Message to Christine Sinclair: Alex Morgan announced her retirement today. That is what I like to call, "Retiring on your own terms." A class act.
Please don't taint your legacy by having the management ask you in advance.
Is Sinc preggers?!?
Talk about surprising finishes.
I see the pregnant part as a secondary consideration. Alex knows that she's no longer the player she used to be. Pregnant or not, she knows when she's seen her last WNT appearance. For quite a while, she hasn't done a lot for her club team either. I give kudos to those that leave when the writing is clearly on the wall, which is to say retiring on their own terms rather than being shown the door.
Or we could say that she got pregnant at the perfect time.
I honestly think she's gonna go play up in Vancouver with the Rise in the new NSL.
I think so too. She needs a slower pace and more room, but if she has those things she can still be deadly. Plus, she still clearly loves the game and loves teaching-by-doing. It would be a great thing for her, Vancouver, the NSL, Canada, everybody.
Not really a bad idea if your still somewhat capable as a role player and not pregnant and mothering or being a wife. Alex is in such a different place altogether.
Is a 2nd tier women's league anything like other sports where you get a ton of fast, athletic, out-of-control players who can't harness the finesse needed to go further? Because that's USL Championship in a nutshell. I've seen a dozen yellows, three reds, and two coaches carded in a single match.
Sinc's tough but she's not crazy.
Fucking nasty work, that's what it is.
????
It was an article about ESPN on EI articles. I thought it was going to promote information exchange, but it sounds like they are trying to replace writers
Ahh, I see....yeah yuck. I thought I missed some drama or something lol.
It isn't directly Thorns-based, but it is big drama lol, a horrifically shitty thing to do on multiple levels.
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to downplay it...I just meant I thought someone posted some asshole comment or something. I didn't see the article mentioned, but from what I can infer, I agree all of it is bullshit.
I actually looked at it and deleted it so no one else would