The Portland Thorns were facing the undefeated Kansas City Current in a game with major table implications. After the opening day disaster, the home side was out to exact revenge.
The Thorns' years-long incompetence with set pieces/balls in the air is becoming tragicomedy; Yesterday, KC scored when one unmarked player in front of goal received the cross, and headed the ball to another unmarked player directly in front of Hogan for the flick-on goal. Whatever marking scheme they're being coached to use should be investigated and banned by FIFA.
In the first LaBonta goal Hubly and Payne got their assignments messed up, both dropping back to mark LaBonta leaving Chawinga wide open for the Cooper cross.
Only when it’s obvious that the ball will reach Chawinga does Hubly move towards her, uncovering LaBonta (who’s got position on Payne) but too late to close down Chawinga.
Hubly ends up stranded, marking no one, as Chawinga heads on for LaBonta to flick past Payne.
Add in Muller failing to close down Cooper (repeatedly!) and there we are.
So the overall tactics AND individual errors combine to ship crap goals. Ugh.
Out of town all weekend and missed the game. Think the DVR'd version is getting deleted!
This roster with this coach is a slightly above league average 4th-6th place team, and I'd guess that's where they end up. The biggest thing I've learned through half the season is that the NWSL has leveled up its top half pretty much across the board, and "a few stars and a great home atmosphere" ain't gonna cut it anymore.
It's a good thing that the teams that took things seriously (KC, Gotham, Washington, and Orlando to an extent) are a cut above --and laying smackdowns on teams-- because it's showing the rest of the league that there's a new standard now and average ain't good enough. Not putting the kibosh on this season by any means because anything (good or bad) can happen, but this offseason is really going to show us how the Bhathals plan to operate and I'm nervous/excited to see what happens!
(And, of course, thank goodness Soph signed that damn contract)
Short story long, she was so frustrated all game with Beckie. Visibly could see it multiple times in the first half from my seat. Kept passing backward, missed the pass, took a poor shot, or just turned the ball over. All. Game. Long. Came out at half. And Izzy was what you’d expect as a winger…what we’ve known forever now. Jessie is not an attacking mid. Also came off at half. Hina potm and maybe the only Thorn to have shown up awake today. Still unmoved by Galeball….in fact, please make it end, I’m ready to have a real coach now.
Also also yes we really need off-season acquisitions in all lines, multiple starting.
I watched Hina closely through the match and literally only saw one of her many many passes get blocked or deflected. She was constantly and consistently on the grind the whole game, and afterwards I saw her giving lots of hugs, big smile - she is so rad. Definitely potm for me
Current "only allow(ed) seven passes into the box on the road at Providence Park."
and:
"... Portland Thorns are the last member of the distinct top five teams that headline the NWSL standings right now. The Thorns have lost just two of their last 10 matches, only losing to the Pride and the Current in that stretch. They're a trophy threat, but they're not an Orlando or a Kansas City-level threat."
That sounds pretty accurate, last member of the top five. I could see us sneaking into 4th place or even 3rd, or contrariwise dropping to 6th, but 5th is roughly who we are. Need some better players, especially better depth to cover for the inevitable injuries.
It’s gonna be hard to watch this one again because it says some hard things about what we are; a flawed team that’s several players and a head coach below the league’s top step.
I’m guessing we finish above the red line but barring a three-game tear or lucky streak get knocked out short of the star. The big question to me is; what do the Bhathals do then?
ISTM the coaching is still Job One. Aiden Gibson pointed out on the match thread that the common factor through the Norris/Gale tenure is a lack of real identity, lack of tactical cohesion short of “Smith scores four”. That’s pretty much the nutshell.
So the big thing will be to find someone to provide that direction and then follow up with the roster building that gaffer maps out to construct the squad that can make the plan a reality.
The rest of this season? Let’s enjoy the wins we get, hope for the best, and see what happens. Who knows? Maybe the lightning will strike the way it did in 2017…
That is the way I am approaching this. The better team won, a much better team. There is a lot for the Bhathals to unpack here. There are players that may not be as good as advertised by management or the coaching staff, key injuries, players that are aging out, tactics that are not as effective as they need to be, a roster overload in some positions and way too thin in others and recruiting that seems to be insufficiently broadband.
Yeah these and a lot of other things for the team owners to consider.
Coaching is totally job one! And in time for some roster building in the offseason, if not the summer window.
When the huge improvement in the coaching boils down to, "The new coach got out of the players' way", it should be clear there's work to be done. I hope the Bhathals can see this.
Meanwhile, as you say, there are still pleasures to be enjoyed this season even if a fourth star is unlikely (Hah!) to be among them.
Not just no but fffuuuuuucccckkkkknnnoooooo. Her low block style 1) relies on defending quality we do not remotely have, 2) is ugly and boring as hell when it works, and 3) wastes her forwards' minutes, which for a team with Smith would be an offense before God and humankind.
As Aiden points out, Henderson is a stats geek who doesn’t really know this league. Arguing with him about this would be like speaking German to a cat.
Rifer, OTOH, should know better. Stoney would need to replace the entire midfield and backline save for Coffey and Muller or a Stoney Thorns would lose every match 0-3. Her defend-and-counter style won’t work with this squad AND will waste Smith, and Rifer should know that.
Management is not confined by any sort of rules, outside of what's in their contract(s). If the Bhathals sign Sir Alex Ferguson tomorrow they can 86 Ken (provided they pay out his contract terms) and install the new gaffer that day.
Players, tho...that's a different story, and that will be the hardest workaround...
Yeah, how does waiving players mid-season work if they all have to have contracts before the season starts? I believe the shortest are only 1 year, but don’t they have to honor that contract? We have a lot to shed if we wanna pull in better talent in this summer window (and the off-season as well) but I have no idea how we (legally and humanely) thin out.
I think there are still guaranteed and non-guaranteed contracts. I've never been totally clear on how it works, but I think non-guaranteed contracts give the team more flexibility. Maybe someone who actually knows about this can enlighten us.
"SPA"...? Sales and purchase agreement? Sport performance assessment? Speed, power, agility? None of these quite fit, and I can't find any other sports- or contract-related meanings that fit either. Please enlighten.
Do we think Adrian Gonzalez might already want a HC position? I wouldn't mind it....I'd even wait until the end of the season if he wants to marinate in Giraldez for a bit.
Y'all he looks like Ian Mackaye so I might be biased lol, but also he is good and playing a similar style to what I think would work here...he’s imparted a very clear vision (and executed it) with a very young roster in a very short time period, in this league that can be very unforgiving to new coaches. The way he plays also demands a quick and strong playmaker so my hope is we’d acquire that. :)
Y’all…we’re gonna get Casey Stoney ball here in Portland aren’t we lol. Bhathals prob only see “won coach of the year, won the shield, great coach” because that’s all we get in the media. I hope KK knows better but I don’t know that she does…again does she know our vision? What IS that? Generally, I’d say high pressing/attacking football and Stoneyball that is not.
I don’t see that happening. KK, Mike Smith, and Mike Norris will be heavily involved with Lisa and Alex. They’ll dig deep into metrics and see the lack of offensive/attacking metrics from SDW.
Lisa Bhathal Merage has not shied away from the ambitions for the club and I think they’ll end up with someone else who is very accomplished and suited for the role.
I'd like to see a new top-flight GM have a role in the new coaching hire. I don't trust KK and not sure about Smith and Norris if the team's current condition and trajectory is any indication.
I really hope so, Stoney has not done well with that team. SDW was built well, they have a generational talent in Naomi Girma, good back line solid goalie, better than decent midfield with Shaw as another excellent player and Alex Morgan. But I think despite winning the Shield they have underperformed with the talent they have. Surprising timing but they must have someone lined up.
Even if the Bhathals know nothing else about soccer, I hope that they see that SDW is doing worse than we are this season, despite a roster that's more-or-less on the same level, and don't consider her.
As you've said, there are plenty of coaches available to choose from at the moment, and we don't need to recycle someone who isn't a good fit.
People in the comments calling for the Thorns to call her up lmao. Please for the love of god NO. Overall SD have better attacking pieces than we do and still can’t get them to score lol.
That Shield win (more of a Portland collapse and a lack of other challengers) last year did a number on people. They scored 31 goals all season. Her style is soulless. She's wasting Jaedyn Shaw.
I get that it seems a little rash --and it really is, especially after they extended her in the offseason-- but I'd be excited if I was a Wave fan.
(Also, this has Cami Ashton written all over it lmao)
Well, yes, but not without Ellis wanting her to do it as her first test of loyalty, like Pettigrew and Voldemort.
Speaking of which, wouldn't it be hilarious if Ashton turned around and hired Potter? I've heard the Longs were pissed that Potter was shaking them off. Ashton had to can him. But Ashton's days were numbered once Vlatko was hired. Or so I've heard.
She doesn’t even play Jaedyn Shaw 😭 But McCaskill can’t be moved. Of course we have Sophia but she actually has a better overall attack than we do currently and they still can’t score. They have like 10 forwards on that roster and still can’t put something together. I don’t understand how people don’t understand we don’t want that here (and Sophia won’t either.)
Also agree about Ashton lmao, that’s the first thing I thought of lol…
I am thankful that the Thorns have not been one of the 10 clubs she’s been at in this league lol. How’s about Lo’eau Labonta for Fleming…1/4 the price and better suited to this league. Her family is from Hawaii…
Also, she can play sufferball with reasonable success because she has a top five CB in the world in Girma, a fringe NTer in Dahlkemper, and an excellent keeper in Sheridan. Are people just ignoring that??
Fwiw, I do think their midfield talent sucks and the rest of their fleet of forwards are average at best....but it still should look much better than it does.
lol yeah said that to you in a diff comment just now. We don’t have the defenders to play Stoneyball here lol.
I think their midfield would be much better and they’d be winning more games if Shaw had been playing the 10 all season. Also still think they have plenty of fine attacking options up too. I said this elsewhere but I still think overall she has a better offense there than here just because we have NO offense besides Sophia. I dunno, I guess it’s hard to compare. We have 1 best player in league and not much else (and I still think our attacking mid isn’t a starter) and they have a fine fleet of forwards capable of lots of goals, with a star up and coming 10. And that’s on top of a mostly great defensive unit. And she still can’t figure it out!
Maybe that Rita Guarino was tied to them, then. Dammit SD, this is gonna make it harder to determine which coaches might actually be interested in us now lol. Also, Bhathals better know they have competition now, and San Diego is one hell of a draw for a coach. Also please Bhathals, NO on Stoney.
So is Chris Henderson! Good lord do they know that Stoneyball has become a meme on twitter because of how painful it is?! lol. Her brand of football is so vastly opposite of the brand of attacking football this club has mostly been known for. I can’t do defend and then kick and run here…I can’t lol. We don’t even have the defenders to make her style work lmao. Hope people are pushing back!
I almost never reply on Twitter lol, but I had to respond to Rifer.
Also, I've written about the Wave more than almost every non-Thorns team this season which means I've watched and rewatched their games almost every weekend, and it's more than just sufferball: it's a total mess. She has no idea what she's doing with her attacking pieces.
sufferball in itself isn't necessarily bad (Hayes does it when necessary, eg)...as you say, it's the complete lack of an attacking plan. That game against Seattle, when Seattle were down to 10, was illustrative. No ideas or imagination.
I'd heard rumors that Cami Ashton was headed for Wave, but coming in and swinging the ax her second week on the job is impressive even for her!
I always thought Stoney was likely to flame out there. She talks too much and is too free with her opinion. That's fine if your're Stephen A Smith, not fine if you're coaching in the NWSL. Eventually players will tune out and team will underperform. Parsons was a victim of that kind of thing in Washington too, though in his case he was shouting all the time.
I don't mind Stoney's talk so much cause her points were usually correct and often in defense of her players (i.e schedule critiques etc).
Her tactics are not very player-friendly though, and I wouldn't be surprised if a certain group of players got frustrated with the way she had them playing.
This gets a like from me because it reminds me of John Cleese's classic bit from his Oxford days, about an English couple so mortified by displays of emotion they could only say, to each other, "One loves one."
Haley Raso is leaving Real Madrid for a team she can get more playing time with. She is rumored to be going back to England and that makes sense prior to Paris.
But what about the Thorns? The US doesn’t seem to be favored by the Aussies, but I think Thorns fans would love to be seeing Ribbons flying at PP.
I saw that too. Much as I very much loved her here at the time, I personally don’t think we need to retread that path, now that she’s 7 or so years older. Soph needs higher ambition from the FO for her attacking partners. She’d be nice as a depth piece for sure, but I don’t think wasting an int’l spot (another one!) on a player who will/should be on the bench is smart. This FO needs to move away from nostalgia hires and signings and pay attention to this (very different) modern NWSL league.
Also, while Thorns fans have warm feelings toward Raso I'm not sure she has warm feelings toward the team. She wasn't happy with the way her 2018 back injury was handled by the team.
Well, the part visible to the public included being stretchered off the field without a backboard, even though it was apparent even on TV that it was probably a back injury, and then being left on the stretcher on the sideline in serious pain for a long time before being loaded into an ambulance. (It happened in DC, so that part may not have been entirely on the Thorns.) During this time not only was she in pain, she was also seriously concerned that she might never play, or possibly walk, again. Not a fond memory I'm sure.
I got that feeling too. She was angry. But nostalgia got the better of me. We can do better and she needs a team where she can be a full time starter. The Thorns need to shoot for the best player in next year’s draft.
But yeah Raso, she was fun to watch especially her battles with Rachel Daly and of course the color coordinated ribbons.
The Matildas got the message a few years ago to play in Europe. Tony Gustavsson wanted them playing there and he moved all their training camps there. I don't know if that's still the case, tho.
It sure looks like it, as only Van Egmond, Torpey, and Vine (NWSL), and Heyman and Yallop (Aussie W-League) are playing outside of Europe (UK, France, Sweden)
The rebuild needs to start now, not in the off season. Starting with a new GM and HC now. We need a group can assess the team's current roster and needs accurately and put together a plan to hit the ground running at seasons end. Enough is enough. It's clear this management group is sub-par.
Why is KK supposedly tenured? What exactly has she done to achieve this status? Connections? It would be nice if those connections led to positive and tangible results.
I saw that recently (during the int'l break) that KK was in Switzerland starting this new fifa club management program where they only accept 40 applicants/yr and it's an 18 month program. She posted on IG about it...if the Bhathals are investing $$$ into career training for KK, I very much doubt she goes anywhere soon unfortunately.
Ok, well, new PR / whatever position it is, then. I have a feeling that injuries are going to give her a pass this season, anyway. I'm already looking forward to the off-season where I hope big changes happen, both in the front office and on the field. Looking forward to new kits, too. The current kits feel like a curse.
Tough game for the Thorns. KC is no joke, and they came out and showed why they are top of the league. Right now the Thorns are in the second tier, and need everyone to get healthy to challenge to top of the table. The injuries are not small ones, but it is showing that the depth simply isn't there for the team. Part of that is the larger league, the increased interest in Women's soccer, but part of it is the team hasn't done a great job of identifying or developing talent. This is where the coaching staff needs to really step up, as does the FO. It has to get better for the next stage of NWSL for the Thorns.
Well, we have 4 strikers and now 2 wingers with Weaver out. One of those wingers is famous for not scoring and the other is stapled to the bench for some reason. Good thing we also have 5 goalkeepers. We also lack offensive mids to support the forward group. This roster construction alone is a fireable offense, IMO. Totally predictable results. I can't imagine Sophia is too happy about the utter lack of support.
Agree on all points, and because Hina has to play so far back because we have no other player who can play in the pivot with Sam, we lose out on all of her creativity closer to goal to create for others. We’ve shed so much talent without replacing over the years, and kinda yeah, predictable is right. Feel like we’ve been yelling this into the void for multiple years now about the depth drying up on this team.
On the flip side, you gotta be happy, like ecstatic, with the Müeller/Payne/Obaze backline upgrades. Dias seemed like a reasonable pickup who might yet pan out. The Weaverknee is just plain bad luck. No FO on this planet would fire a Christine Sinclair at the pasture gate. Let's save the pitchforks for the real battles.
I consider the Mueller / Kuikka "exchange" a wash. Different players but about the same quality. And we got nothing for Kuikka supposedly because KK screwed up. Payne is nice, but if we already have two starting backs in Mueller and Reyes, then she is a luxury. Yes, she brings things to the pitch that Reyes doesn't, but one of them is still on the bench while the other is playing. Obaze was a great pickup, but CB was pretty far down on the list of needs. I get what you're saying about Sinc, but either find a different role for her or limit her minutes. Or maybe don't hire/promote two Canadian coaches (well, three including Wilkinson) who probably feel pressure to play Sinc more than they should due to her legend status.
I feel like the Thorns are taking on water with all of the missteps and the league is getting better and passing us by. Not sure what the point is in saving up consternation for an even worse future situation (which feels like the trajectory).
There is no doubt things could have gone differently than they have, and I certainly agree that we have not made good use of our assets. I think of the starting 11 v Orlando in the heat and it's as if Gale had conceded the three points before the anthem and just wanted to go home. But that's not to say that we have done nothing right.
I have to hope that the coach search does not have Gale on the short list, and the only Canadians left to consider are Priestman (we could do worse) and Moscato (whose c.v. is pretty thin). If we hire Gale, or someone else convenient (.e.g Parsons, Stoney), then it's pitchforks time for sure. I do feel like our lack of a confident, competent manager has set us back several years and the roster building the new gaffer will have to do is now more than could be done in one window.
It seems we fans just have to be patient right now - we don't have a new coach to criticize or idolize, nor are we in the transfer window when we could realistically fix some roster issues. It's frustrating that we have no insight into those processes, but I can't see how the searches and scouting could be done in a transparent fashion.
Not much different from Orlando, which is even more reliant on Banda. But neither holds a candle to KC, both on total goals scored or distribution across the squad
The headline doesn't do justice to the quotes. Tabitha says the parents *beat her* for playing soccer. Also, had to play against boys from the earliest age. She took Temwa with her to play. One wonders if Temwa received the same treatment.
So far I’m not seeing “MIA”. She’s “here”: she’s working. What I’m guessing you mean is “show up as advertised”, show up as the game-changer her CWNT palmares says she is…and I’m guessing “that’s not who she is at the club level”. I think what we’re seeing is what we’ve got.
That’s a bit disappointing if you see her international c.v. as her base level. But I’m increasingly convinced it’s not. I think she’s a journeywoman midfielder, and what she’s doing now IS what she can do. So the trick is the gaffer needs to find a use for her as that, or let the GM know she’s superfluous to requirements and start shopping for trades.
Thanks for the thoughts. I keep waiting and waiting- thinking there will be some magic moment where all the excitement attached to her is manifest. I do like the description of a “journeywoman midfielder” for her. And we def need more than that.
Any actual idea what she's making, or, more specifically, how much cap space her contract takes up? I mean, we've got a bunch of veteran players like Sauerbrunn and Sinclair who have to be sitting on fat contracts. So I could see Fleming being expensive but not "that expensive" when put alongside the others as a cap hit...
Well when KK signed Janine Beckie, I remember it reported by media at the time as being one of the largest salaries in the league (which…?)
Makes me thing Jessie is more. If we paid that sort of transfer fee for her…I’m guessing we also took a major cap hit. Jessie is Canadian royalty, so I’m guessing she’s on a fat contract.
No idea, as "The NWSL agrees that a Player’s salary shall not be disclosed to third parties by the NWSL or its Teams without the prior, written consent of the NWSLPA."
However, Spotrac has info about contract status of all players. Generally fairly reliable.
Fleming is under contract through 2026, then becomes a restricted FA.
Interestingly, Hubs, Becky, and Bixby are out of contract after 2024 and become unrestricted FAs. We hold Payne's NWSL rights for 2025, but she too is OOC.
Smith has a player option for 2026, which makes this offseason and how next year goes absolutely crucial.
Also: SO proud of Sam, man. Got her chance last season and absolutely locked down the starting six position on one of the best national teams in the world. Very cool!
I can’t imagine how fulfilled and excited she feels. Being a player who DIDN’T come up in the youth system, I bet it feels like an incredible milestone. And she absolutely earned and deserves it.
This is the exact roster I wrote out myself! I really wanted Krueger to go. Watched in the most recent Gotham v Spirit match and she was v good. Crystal didn’t play well (and hasn’t really had a great season with Gotham) but I thought her flexibility was always gonna win out on a short roster since she can actually play on all three lines. Wish Korbin wasn’t there, but they do need more defensive/box to box coverage. Personally would’ve preferred Yohannes (or Herschfelt!), but didn’t think KA would be omitted considering her consistent inclusion. Anyways…Soph and Coffey are gonna be playing a lot of minutes lol.
Thinking more about the Stoney firing because of how explosive the reaction was:
- People are really mad about firing Stoney the person -- a very popular former player who is outspoken about player treatment and LGBTQ rights, and moved her family across the world and got a long term extension recently-- which is coloring their attitude towards her coaching.
- On the other hand, the media are acting as though her coaching was elite. The amount of points she won the shield with last season --37-- is EASILY the fewest it's ever taken to win. The next closest is the Reign winning with 40 the year before, but the average is closer to 45. I don't want to take away from the Shield win entirely because it's still an impressive feat, but the league was an absolute mess last season. SD's relative defensive stability made them best of a bad bunch.
- She finished 4th in the WSL three times in three years with United. Not like she overachieved there.
- There's not an "elite tier" of woso coaches established yet outside of Hayes like there are with the men, so media are racing to put coaches they like in that tier. Not sure what Stoney has done to even be thought about as an elite coach, but I've seen a lot of people putting her there,
All in all: Really weird! I think it's a slightly reactive firing given she HAS had the Wave in a really good spot for most of her tenure, and I don't think it's great from SD from a people-management perspective especially given the prickly reputations of Ellis and Ashton, but the reaction to the move has been bizarre.
It does feel like Angel City has underperformed under Stoney, and being a good person can only take you so far (see: Norris, Mike). I'm actually a bit surprised this didn't happen earlier, though of course the Shield was a major score for her.
Wait, so now Ellis is saying that Ashton wasn’t even involved? So they fired Stoney without input from the person they just hired to run the team? Seems like bad process!
Well, that answers the question of whether it was the collective we or the royal we.
The problem with the lack of patience is that this is a parity league. It's very easy to have an off year.
Still, you've gotta know when the coach isn't getting through to the players anymore, isn't meeting expectations, isn't utilizing the available talent to its highest result, etc.
Yeah, and to be clear, I want to distinguish between my thoughts on Stoney the coach and how SD went about the process:
- I don't think Stoney is an elevating coach. I agree with SD's desire to bring in someone better. I don't get the love *for her coaching abilities*.
- I think the process is pretty crap, especially given Ashton wasn't consulted (or was, but is now being protected because of her rep, which might be worse).
- I agree with the general consensus and don't love that Stoney was fired months after she signed an extension. That's not great from a communication perspective and feels rash. That said, the human element wouldn't even be brought up in, say, the NFL/NBA/MLS, for better or worse.
TBF, I don't think it's as much a roster construction issue as it is a coaching issue first, and then just the fact they are an expansion club with unlucky injuries in key areas. Their midfield is def v light. Oshoala has been...not good, and that's pretty unexpected. Kundananji has been average. That's more on the scouting....but the personnel decisions with the rest of the roster are pretty good, and you'd expect them to be gelling a lot better than they are....but yeah, they can't get their F's to score and the tactics have been pretty bad. They have a lot of really good players, though, imo....the back end of their roster is better than the back end of our roster.
But you're right, I'm just desperate to be rid of KK honestly...
The knowledgeable folks from whom I'd heard "Karina is terrible at her job" have yet to be wrong about any of the things they've told me about players and coaches -- who would do well, who would not, and why. So, take that for whatever it's worth.
I think things are going to have to get way worse than they are now for that to happen. And it's going to have to be clear that it's her, not the coach.
I'm not super impressed with LeBlanc, but I have liked some of her moves., What I want to see is what happens in the offseason after a full season of Bhathals ownership. Up to this point I blame a lot on the loooong hiatus because of the pending sale. The sale was completed during the offseason, of course, but a lot of arrangements need to be lined up far in advance.
Just being honest. Again, I'm still trying to be patient....I don't think she did enough the first couple years she was here, and well, I know a bit too much about some other stuff to not color my opinions of her (incl players disliking her)...but you're right, I'm inclined to really see what she can do in this summer window and offseason, fully supported. She's got a lot of dead weight to shed, though, and we seem to keep adding more of it rather than losing it. It's going to need to be an offseason for the books if she wants to crack the top of the league next year...we have good foundational pieces but we have quite a ways to go to touch those top 4 teams now. Winning the Championship really came at the worst time, because we weren't able to capitalize on it at all like other clubs would. No one wanted to come to Portland at that time. We need to fill a lot of holes in our starting XI now, as well as really bring the floor up with our depth. Sinc, and potentially Kling and Becky retiring will def take some cap space off the books, but it'll also take a ton of leadership as well. There's other large contracts that also may not be here next year (like Beckie, as rumored) to take off the books, so they really ought to have a sizeable amount of $$$ to work with.
I really hope there's a holistic plan for their roster-building. That's all to say that we also need a good coach with a very clear plan, and (hopefully) the ability to work closely with KK to let her know the type of players to get to execute that vision. Withholding final judgement until preseason next year, but it's easy to become impatient while some clubs are doing all the right things when I feel like we've just been living in limbo and/or dying on the vine very slowly before our eyes over the last several seasons. Much of it, because we've basically had interim coaches for multiple years now + controversy + sale limbo. But again, tryyyyyying to be patient. :)
Yeah, Chicago got a start on us in terms of moving on because their sale happened so quickly. Seattle is behind because theirs took even longer, although they didn't have the untouchable stigma to the same degree.
Not this year, and very possibly not next year, but this too shall pass.
On the plus side, the reconstruction process should be interesting, and hopefully eventually satisfying, to watch. And as long as the Thorns continue to select players for character as well as skill, I will find them an easy team to root for, whatever the fortunes of the moment.
Wow, great post, my sentiments exactly. I just posted something similar before seeing this. I'll feel much better with a new GM. Less concerned about the coach at the moment. More concerned about roster management. Yes, getting the right coach that gets the most out of this roster is important, but getting the right players and managing the cap / assets is much more important, IMO.
I'm with you. I'd love a top, difference-making GM and I have my KK complaints --particular re: roster balance-- but this talk of her as the unmitigated disaster at fault for many of the Thorns' issues is just objectively untrue.
In reality, the most important parts of NWSL GMing is scouting (I've liked all the moves since the Bhathals took over), retaining stars (Soph signed a contract), and coach hiring (tbd).
Did you like the Fleming acquisition to a record deal? I mean, there have been what, maybe 5 or so moves since they took over (Soph's short-term deal plus 3 signings on defense that was not really a priority plus a record deal for Fleming that looks like a bust in terms of cost of acquisition and cost against the cap)? Are you including the Kuikka debacle? This same front office also hired / promoted the last two coaches who have turned out to be...not great. No, not an unmitigated disaster, but definitely moving in the wrong direction. Will Soph want to stick around with this incompetent roster balance? Things can take a turn for the worse quickly if you're not careful.
- I did like the Fleming deal when it happened and still do, though I understand I'm in the minority. Signing an in-her-prime Canadian captain with her pedigree was a no-brainer for me. I get it hasn't clicked yet --and who knows if it ever will, though "early disappointment" would be a much more accurate characterization than "bust" to describe her given her underlying metrics-- but let's not act like it was bad process. I'm going (to try) to not engage in anymore Fleming discourse until the end of the season.
- I love the Müller acquisition. A+ signing for me.
- Obaze hasn't played enough to get a complete grade, but I really liked what I saw from her and she (and Payne) are the exact type of young, high potential players I want the Thorns to bring in.
- I think most of us assumed Soph would test free agency. Getting that deal done when she had no reason to commit to even one more year is HUGE and shows SHE has trust in the process. That means something to me.
- I can't speak to the details of Kuikka deal, but I trust those who say KK screwed it up. That said, Natu was mediocre most of last season and Reyes has been a perfectly fine replacement.
- I don't like the roster balance, especially the dearth of wingers and the surplus of strikers and GKs. That needs to be improved.
- There is some dead weight on this roster that needs to be shed this offseason. I expect that some of it will be, and I will criticize the FO if it isn't.
- I don't blame KK *at all* for the Norris hire. That was a "keep stability" move after the RW incident with an owner that was never in a million years going to pay a new big name coach. The players themselves have expressed gratitude on that front, which matters to me too.
So, in summary: I don't think KK is particularly good, but I don't blame her for every issue. I think the signings have been mostly quite good. The team is not a disaster, it's just not as good as the very best teams. There is a lot of roster work to do to repair the damage of the last two years of the Paulson era when he shut and locked his pocketbook, and I've been very clear that I want to see how this next offseason plays out with real ownership support before I make a judgement on the FO. I know Thorns fans aren't used to down seasons and are prone to "the world is ending" hyperbole when the team isn't in the top three, but the league is in a better, more competitive place now and the Thorns were never going to fix every roster issue in one abbreviated offseason. I completely disagree that the Thorns are moving in the wrong direction. They've *been* moving in the wrong direction for three years and it takes time to turn the ship around. As I've said, I too would prefer if someone better than KK was captain of that ship, but I'm willing to give it until the end of the next offseason to see what the Bhathals do.
I honestly think their team building has been mostly fine. They’ve suffered mostly from their captain and starting six going down with an ACL games into the season and their stars taking some time to adapt to the league when a lot of people (myself included) thought they’d come in and be good right away. I think they’ll be alright long term
I dunno. They have been such a shitshow up to this point that I can't separate the injuries from the coaching from the lack of collective cohesion. I'm not impressed enough to be excited about Rushton, anyway. Haley Carter? Ohhellyes. Rushton? Enh, probably better than KK, but that's a goddamn low bar.
The Thorns' years-long incompetence with set pieces/balls in the air is becoming tragicomedy; Yesterday, KC scored when one unmarked player in front of goal received the cross, and headed the ball to another unmarked player directly in front of Hogan for the flick-on goal. Whatever marking scheme they're being coached to use should be investigated and banned by FIFA.
You don't think that hiring Norris, former set piece coach, as head coach, helped???
*sarcasm*
A lot of that is individual error.
In the first LaBonta goal Hubly and Payne got their assignments messed up, both dropping back to mark LaBonta leaving Chawinga wide open for the Cooper cross.
Only when it’s obvious that the ball will reach Chawinga does Hubly move towards her, uncovering LaBonta (who’s got position on Payne) but too late to close down Chawinga.
Hubly ends up stranded, marking no one, as Chawinga heads on for LaBonta to flick past Payne.
Add in Muller failing to close down Cooper (repeatedly!) and there we are.
So the overall tactics AND individual errors combine to ship crap goals. Ugh.
Out of town all weekend and missed the game. Think the DVR'd version is getting deleted!
This roster with this coach is a slightly above league average 4th-6th place team, and I'd guess that's where they end up. The biggest thing I've learned through half the season is that the NWSL has leveled up its top half pretty much across the board, and "a few stars and a great home atmosphere" ain't gonna cut it anymore.
It's a good thing that the teams that took things seriously (KC, Gotham, Washington, and Orlando to an extent) are a cut above --and laying smackdowns on teams-- because it's showing the rest of the league that there's a new standard now and average ain't good enough. Not putting the kibosh on this season by any means because anything (good or bad) can happen, but this offseason is really going to show us how the Bhathals plan to operate and I'm nervous/excited to see what happens!
(And, of course, thank goodness Soph signed that damn contract)
Short story long, she was so frustrated all game with Beckie. Visibly could see it multiple times in the first half from my seat. Kept passing backward, missed the pass, took a poor shot, or just turned the ball over. All. Game. Long. Came out at half. And Izzy was what you’d expect as a winger…what we’ve known forever now. Jessie is not an attacking mid. Also came off at half. Hina potm and maybe the only Thorn to have shown up awake today. Still unmoved by Galeball….in fact, please make it end, I’m ready to have a real coach now.
Also also yes we really need off-season acquisitions in all lines, multiple starting.
I watched Hina closely through the match and literally only saw one of her many many passes get blocked or deflected. She was constantly and consistently on the grind the whole game, and afterwards I saw her giving lots of hugs, big smile - she is so rad. Definitely potm for me
What ESPN Power Rankings say:
Current "only allow(ed) seven passes into the box on the road at Providence Park."
and:
"... Portland Thorns are the last member of the distinct top five teams that headline the NWSL standings right now. The Thorns have lost just two of their last 10 matches, only losing to the Pride and the Current in that stretch. They're a trophy threat, but they're not an Orlando or a Kansas City-level threat."
"a trophy threat" > atrophy threat
That sounds pretty accurate, last member of the top five. I could see us sneaking into 4th place or even 3rd, or contrariwise dropping to 6th, but 5th is roughly who we are. Need some better players, especially better depth to cover for the inevitable injuries.
We need a coach who makes better use of the players available.
And of course you're right that we need better depth.
It’s gonna be hard to watch this one again because it says some hard things about what we are; a flawed team that’s several players and a head coach below the league’s top step.
I’m guessing we finish above the red line but barring a three-game tear or lucky streak get knocked out short of the star. The big question to me is; what do the Bhathals do then?
ISTM the coaching is still Job One. Aiden Gibson pointed out on the match thread that the common factor through the Norris/Gale tenure is a lack of real identity, lack of tactical cohesion short of “Smith scores four”. That’s pretty much the nutshell.
So the big thing will be to find someone to provide that direction and then follow up with the roster building that gaffer maps out to construct the squad that can make the plan a reality.
The rest of this season? Let’s enjoy the wins we get, hope for the best, and see what happens. Who knows? Maybe the lightning will strike the way it did in 2017…
That is the way I am approaching this. The better team won, a much better team. There is a lot for the Bhathals to unpack here. There are players that may not be as good as advertised by management or the coaching staff, key injuries, players that are aging out, tactics that are not as effective as they need to be, a roster overload in some positions and way too thin in others and recruiting that seems to be insufficiently broadband.
Yeah these and a lot of other things for the team owners to consider.
Coaching is totally job one! And in time for some roster building in the offseason, if not the summer window.
When the huge improvement in the coaching boils down to, "The new coach got out of the players' way", it should be clear there's work to be done. I hope the Bhathals can see this.
Meanwhile, as you say, there are still pleasures to be enjoyed this season even if a fourth star is unlikely (Hah!) to be among them.
So, Stoney is out at San Diego. Anyone want her for the Thorns?
Not just no but fffuuuuuucccckkkkknnnoooooo. Her low block style 1) relies on defending quality we do not remotely have, 2) is ugly and boring as hell when it works, and 3) wastes her forwards' minutes, which for a team with Smith would be an offense before God and humankind.
No. just no.
Can you go tell this to Chris Rifer and Chris Henderson on twitter lol
As Aiden points out, Henderson is a stats geek who doesn’t really know this league. Arguing with him about this would be like speaking German to a cat.
Rifer, OTOH, should know better. Stoney would need to replace the entire midfield and backline save for Coffey and Muller or a Stoney Thorns would lose every match 0-3. Her defend-and-counter style won’t work with this squad AND will waste Smith, and Rifer should know that.
I got a big laugh out of "German to a cat." They should make that the subtitle to a Henderson profile on NWSL+.
Yup, said as much to him! With Rifer I honestly think he doesn’t watch much NWSL other than Thorns games based on some of his takes.
Henderson doesn't actually watch ball
Can't say "fuck no" quick enough
Oh Please no!
wow, that's surprising
Id there a "transfer window" for coaches? Or is it just whenever the FO manages to find a decent candidate?
Management is not confined by any sort of rules, outside of what's in their contract(s). If the Bhathals sign Sir Alex Ferguson tomorrow they can 86 Ken (provided they pay out his contract terms) and install the new gaffer that day.
Players, tho...that's a different story, and that will be the hardest workaround...
Yeah, how does waiving players mid-season work if they all have to have contracts before the season starts? I believe the shortest are only 1 year, but don’t they have to honor that contract? We have a lot to shed if we wanna pull in better talent in this summer window (and the off-season as well) but I have no idea how we (legally and humanely) thin out.
I think there are still guaranteed and non-guaranteed contracts. I've never been totally clear on how it works, but I think non-guaranteed contracts give the team more flexibility. Maybe someone who actually knows about this can enlighten us.
1. Teams can waive semi-guaranteed SPAs for performance reasons or health reasons.
2. Teams cannot waive guaranteed SPAs for performance or health reasons.
3. We don't know which players are on semi-guaranteed SPAs because that information is (unsurprisingly) not public for some reason.
In any case, we take the player's cap hit for the whole season, don't we?
"SPA"...? Sales and purchase agreement? Sport performance assessment? Speed, power, agility? None of these quite fit, and I can't find any other sports- or contract-related meanings that fit either. Please enlighten.
Thanks. So it sounds like players on semi-guaranteed SPAs are basically at-will employees.
What a shock to have such a lack of transparency.!
Match report up: https://rivetingpdx.com/2024/06/26/thorns-fc-ten-minutes/
Do we think Adrian Gonzalez might already want a HC position? I wouldn't mind it....I'd even wait until the end of the season if he wants to marinate in Giraldez for a bit.
Y'all he looks like Ian Mackaye so I might be biased lol, but also he is good and playing a similar style to what I think would work here...he’s imparted a very clear vision (and executed it) with a very young roster in a very short time period, in this league that can be very unforgiving to new coaches. The way he plays also demands a quick and strong playmaker so my hope is we’d acquire that. :)
Gonzalez has obviously done a good job at Washington, although it's hard to know what the balance of his collaboration with Giraldez was.
I guess I would be tentatively positive pending learning more about him individually.
Y’all…we’re gonna get Casey Stoney ball here in Portland aren’t we lol. Bhathals prob only see “won coach of the year, won the shield, great coach” because that’s all we get in the media. I hope KK knows better but I don’t know that she does…again does she know our vision? What IS that? Generally, I’d say high pressing/attacking football and Stoneyball that is not.
I don’t see that happening. KK, Mike Smith, and Mike Norris will be heavily involved with Lisa and Alex. They’ll dig deep into metrics and see the lack of offensive/attacking metrics from SDW.
Lisa Bhathal Merage has not shied away from the ambitions for the club and I think they’ll end up with someone else who is very accomplished and suited for the role.
I sure hope you're right. Do you have anyone in particular in mind?
Let me collab on a piece with Melina and we can dive deeper into it.
I'll look forward to reading it.
I'd like to see a new top-flight GM have a role in the new coaching hire. I don't trust KK and not sure about Smith and Norris if the team's current condition and trajectory is any indication.
I really hope so, Stoney has not done well with that team. SDW was built well, they have a generational talent in Naomi Girma, good back line solid goalie, better than decent midfield with Shaw as another excellent player and Alex Morgan. But I think despite winning the Shield they have underperformed with the talent they have. Surprising timing but they must have someone lined up.
I think that's right. The Bhathals don't make decisions on emotion or feel. They look at data.
SoCal gonna SoCal, tho. Newport Beach is North San Diego.
Oh, surely there's someone available with a stronger connection to Canada...
Even if the Bhathals know nothing else about soccer, I hope that they see that SDW is doing worse than we are this season, despite a roster that's more-or-less on the same level, and don't consider her.
As you've said, there are plenty of coaches available to choose from at the moment, and we don't need to recycle someone who isn't a good fit.
Just imagine the marketing opportunities with the local dispensaries...
Wait, co-primary sponsors? Dispensaries + Tillamook?
Tagline: Her scheme sucks so bad you have to be stoned to get through a game.
https://x.com/sandiegowavefc/status/1805321638499479560
WOAH. This is *absolutely* the right decision, but I didn't think they'd do it half a season after winning the Shield!
People in the comments calling for the Thorns to call her up lmao. Please for the love of god NO. Overall SD have better attacking pieces than we do and still can’t get them to score lol.
That Shield win (more of a Portland collapse and a lack of other challengers) last year did a number on people. They scored 31 goals all season. Her style is soulless. She's wasting Jaedyn Shaw.
I get that it seems a little rash --and it really is, especially after they extended her in the offseason-- but I'd be excited if I was a Wave fan.
(Also, this has Cami Ashton written all over it lmao)
Well, yes, but not without Ellis wanting her to do it as her first test of loyalty, like Pettigrew and Voldemort.
Speaking of which, wouldn't it be hilarious if Ashton turned around and hired Potter? I've heard the Longs were pissed that Potter was shaking them off. Ashton had to can him. But Ashton's days were numbered once Vlatko was hired. Or so I've heard.
She doesn’t even play Jaedyn Shaw 😭 But McCaskill can’t be moved. Of course we have Sophia but she actually has a better overall attack than we do currently and they still can’t score. They have like 10 forwards on that roster and still can’t put something together. I don’t understand how people don’t understand we don’t want that here (and Sophia won’t either.)
Also agree about Ashton lmao, that’s the first thing I thought of lol…
McCaskill for Fleming. Who says no fastest? Or loudest?
I am thankful that the Thorns have not been one of the 10 clubs she’s been at in this league lol. How’s about Lo’eau Labonta for Fleming…1/4 the price and better suited to this league. Her family is from Hawaii…
Why would KC do that lol
Also, she can play sufferball with reasonable success because she has a top five CB in the world in Girma, a fringe NTer in Dahlkemper, and an excellent keeper in Sheridan. Are people just ignoring that??
Fwiw, I do think their midfield talent sucks and the rest of their fleet of forwards are average at best....but it still should look much better than it does.
lol yeah said that to you in a diff comment just now. We don’t have the defenders to play Stoneyball here lol.
I think their midfield would be much better and they’d be winning more games if Shaw had been playing the 10 all season. Also still think they have plenty of fine attacking options up too. I said this elsewhere but I still think overall she has a better offense there than here just because we have NO offense besides Sophia. I dunno, I guess it’s hard to compare. We have 1 best player in league and not much else (and I still think our attacking mid isn’t a starter) and they have a fine fleet of forwards capable of lots of goals, with a star up and coming 10. And that’s on top of a mostly great defensive unit. And she still can’t figure it out!
I'm seeing people giving her credit for a Challenge Cup? The one game pre-season match when half of each team were coming of Shebalieves? WAAT
HOLY!!! I am shocked.
Maybe that Rita Guarino was tied to them, then. Dammit SD, this is gonna make it harder to determine which coaches might actually be interested in us now lol. Also, Bhathals better know they have competition now, and San Diego is one hell of a draw for a coach. Also please Bhathals, NO on Stoney.
Rifer already calling for her on Twitter. Good god, do these people watch any Wave games at all??
So is Chris Henderson! Good lord do they know that Stoneyball has become a meme on twitter because of how painful it is?! lol. Her brand of football is so vastly opposite of the brand of attacking football this club has mostly been known for. I can’t do defend and then kick and run here…I can’t lol. We don’t even have the defenders to make her style work lmao. Hope people are pushing back!
I almost never reply on Twitter lol, but I had to respond to Rifer.
Also, I've written about the Wave more than almost every non-Thorns team this season which means I've watched and rewatched their games almost every weekend, and it's more than just sufferball: it's a total mess. She has no idea what she's doing with her attacking pieces.
sufferball in itself isn't necessarily bad (Hayes does it when necessary, eg)...as you say, it's the complete lack of an attacking plan. That game against Seattle, when Seattle were down to 10, was illustrative. No ideas or imagination.
Wait, are you talking about the Wave or the Thorns? /s
Bhathals are SoCal people, you have to remember. From Newport Beach. It's a possibility.
Wow! That is a big change, not something I would have expected. SD with Shaw and Girma is going to be a attractive location for coaches.
I'd heard rumors that Cami Ashton was headed for Wave, but coming in and swinging the ax her second week on the job is impressive even for her!
I always thought Stoney was likely to flame out there. She talks too much and is too free with her opinion. That's fine if your're Stephen A Smith, not fine if you're coaching in the NWSL. Eventually players will tune out and team will underperform. Parsons was a victim of that kind of thing in Washington too, though in his case he was shouting all the time.
I don't mind Stoney's talk so much cause her points were usually correct and often in defense of her players (i.e schedule critiques etc).
Her tactics are not very player-friendly though, and I wouldn't be surprised if a certain group of players got frustrated with the way she had them playing.
The Equalizer wrote a stinging takedown of Stoney's complaining that was posted shortly before she got sacked.
Yeah the reaction has been like SD committed war crimes by firing her. It's confusing the hell out of me!
"We felt a change was necessary at this time."
All the warmth one expects of a Jill Ellis statement. Guess it could have been "One feels..."
One wonders whether that was the collective we or the royal we.
This gets a like from me because it reminds me of John Cleese's classic bit from his Oxford days, about an English couple so mortified by displays of emotion they could only say, to each other, "One loves one."
Ellis + Ashton are about as soulless an FO duo as you can find lol
Must be one helluva org culture. Fun place to work!
Woah! Did not see that coming.
Haley Raso is leaving Real Madrid for a team she can get more playing time with. She is rumored to be going back to England and that makes sense prior to Paris.
But what about the Thorns? The US doesn’t seem to be favored by the Aussies, but I think Thorns fans would love to be seeing Ribbons flying at PP.
I love Raso, but she's well below the caliber of player the Thorns need to be going after.
I saw that too. Much as I very much loved her here at the time, I personally don’t think we need to retread that path, now that she’s 7 or so years older. Soph needs higher ambition from the FO for her attacking partners. She’d be nice as a depth piece for sure, but I don’t think wasting an int’l spot (another one!) on a player who will/should be on the bench is smart. This FO needs to move away from nostalgia hires and signings and pay attention to this (very different) modern NWSL league.
Also, while Thorns fans have warm feelings toward Raso I'm not sure she has warm feelings toward the team. She wasn't happy with the way her 2018 back injury was handled by the team.
Ohh I wonder what happened there?
Well, the part visible to the public included being stretchered off the field without a backboard, even though it was apparent even on TV that it was probably a back injury, and then being left on the stretcher on the sideline in serious pain for a long time before being loaded into an ambulance. (It happened in DC, so that part may not have been entirely on the Thorns.) During this time not only was she in pain, she was also seriously concerned that she might never play, or possibly walk, again. Not a fond memory I'm sure.
I got that feeling too. She was angry. But nostalgia got the better of me. We can do better and she needs a team where she can be a full time starter. The Thorns need to shoot for the best player in next year’s draft.
But yeah Raso, she was fun to watch especially her battles with Rachel Daly and of course the color coordinated ribbons.
The Matildas got the message a few years ago to play in Europe. Tony Gustavsson wanted them playing there and he moved all their training camps there. I don't know if that's still the case, tho.
It sure looks like it, as only Van Egmond, Torpey, and Vine (NWSL), and Heyman and Yallop (Aussie W-League) are playing outside of Europe (UK, France, Sweden)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_women%27s_national_soccer_team#Players
Juventus, PSG and LigaMX teams linked today and that makes sense.
LigaMX, please! Raso plays like a luchador!
The rebuild needs to start now, not in the off season. Starting with a new GM and HC now. We need a group can assess the team's current roster and needs accurately and put together a plan to hit the ground running at seasons end. Enough is enough. It's clear this management group is sub-par.
I don't think there's any way KK is going away any time soon. For the #kkout crowd, I think the best to hope for is a move "upstairs" a la Norris.
Why is KK supposedly tenured? What exactly has she done to achieve this status? Connections? It would be nice if those connections led to positive and tangible results.
I saw that recently (during the int'l break) that KK was in Switzerland starting this new fifa club management program where they only accept 40 applicants/yr and it's an 18 month program. She posted on IG about it...if the Bhathals are investing $$$ into career training for KK, I very much doubt she goes anywhere soon unfortunately.
So, they've decided that they like the person and personality and will pay to train her how to do the job.
Big mistake.
Ok, well, new PR / whatever position it is, then. I have a feeling that injuries are going to give her a pass this season, anyway. I'm already looking forward to the off-season where I hope big changes happen, both in the front office and on the field. Looking forward to new kits, too. The current kits feel like a curse.
Is it my imagination or are the kits progressively more orange each time we see them?
That's just the blood draining out of your head during Sunday's beatdown.
But there's nowhere for her to move "upstairs" -- she's the Prez of Soccer Operations. The only solution here is to hire a GM below her.
I think the rebuild is already happening, though. They're not going to hire a permanent HC to come in during the season, and the search continues.
As for the SD thing, I wonder if they're going to bring in Kilgore.
Well they need to invent a more upstairsy sounding title than President of Soccer and give that to her, haha.
Give her a community relations job...
Precisely. Invent a position-she could be the familiar face of the marketing team.
My guess? Tony Gustavsson, who already said he's leaving after the Olympics. He and Ellis have tons of history.
And he could bring Aussies and/or Swedes with him, maybe.
Tough game for the Thorns. KC is no joke, and they came out and showed why they are top of the league. Right now the Thorns are in the second tier, and need everyone to get healthy to challenge to top of the table. The injuries are not small ones, but it is showing that the depth simply isn't there for the team. Part of that is the larger league, the increased interest in Women's soccer, but part of it is the team hasn't done a great job of identifying or developing talent. This is where the coaching staff needs to really step up, as does the FO. It has to get better for the next stage of NWSL for the Thorns.
Has our scoring imbalance ever been this dire? Soph has as many goals as the next four, combined.
NAME P G
Sophia Smith 12 10
Janine Beckie 14 3
Olivia Moultrie 12 3
Sam Coffey 13 2
C Sinclair 13 2
Payton Linnehan 10 2
Hina Sugita 14 1
Ana Dias 8 1
Morgan Weaver 7 1
Izzy D'Aquila 6 1
Well, we have 4 strikers and now 2 wingers with Weaver out. One of those wingers is famous for not scoring and the other is stapled to the bench for some reason. Good thing we also have 5 goalkeepers. We also lack offensive mids to support the forward group. This roster construction alone is a fireable offense, IMO. Totally predictable results. I can't imagine Sophia is too happy about the utter lack of support.
Agree on all points, and because Hina has to play so far back because we have no other player who can play in the pivot with Sam, we lose out on all of her creativity closer to goal to create for others. We’ve shed so much talent without replacing over the years, and kinda yeah, predictable is right. Feel like we’ve been yelling this into the void for multiple years now about the depth drying up on this team.
On the flip side, you gotta be happy, like ecstatic, with the Müeller/Payne/Obaze backline upgrades. Dias seemed like a reasonable pickup who might yet pan out. The Weaverknee is just plain bad luck. No FO on this planet would fire a Christine Sinclair at the pasture gate. Let's save the pitchforks for the real battles.
I consider the Mueller / Kuikka "exchange" a wash. Different players but about the same quality. And we got nothing for Kuikka supposedly because KK screwed up. Payne is nice, but if we already have two starting backs in Mueller and Reyes, then she is a luxury. Yes, she brings things to the pitch that Reyes doesn't, but one of them is still on the bench while the other is playing. Obaze was a great pickup, but CB was pretty far down on the list of needs. I get what you're saying about Sinc, but either find a different role for her or limit her minutes. Or maybe don't hire/promote two Canadian coaches (well, three including Wilkinson) who probably feel pressure to play Sinc more than they should due to her legend status.
I feel like the Thorns are taking on water with all of the missteps and the league is getting better and passing us by. Not sure what the point is in saving up consternation for an even worse future situation (which feels like the trajectory).
There is no doubt things could have gone differently than they have, and I certainly agree that we have not made good use of our assets. I think of the starting 11 v Orlando in the heat and it's as if Gale had conceded the three points before the anthem and just wanted to go home. But that's not to say that we have done nothing right.
I have to hope that the coach search does not have Gale on the short list, and the only Canadians left to consider are Priestman (we could do worse) and Moscato (whose c.v. is pretty thin). If we hire Gale, or someone else convenient (.e.g Parsons, Stoney), then it's pitchforks time for sure. I do feel like our lack of a confident, competent manager has set us back several years and the roster building the new gaffer will have to do is now more than could be done in one window.
It seems we fans just have to be patient right now - we don't have a new coach to criticize or idolize, nor are we in the transfer window when we could realistically fix some roster issues. It's frustrating that we have no insight into those processes, but I can't see how the searches and scouting could be done in a transparent fashion.
Not much different from Orlando, which is even more reliant on Banda. But neither holds a candle to KC, both on total goals scored or distribution across the squad
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/oct/18/psgs-tabitha-chawinga-my-parents-did-not-support-the-idea-of-me-playing-football
The headline doesn't do justice to the quotes. Tabitha says the parents *beat her* for playing soccer. Also, had to play against boys from the earliest age. She took Temwa with her to play. One wonders if Temwa received the same treatment.
The parents seem to have changed tune:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2356820341008816&set=a.970030383021159
Attitudes change when moolah pours in.
The Fabulous Moolah? Where?
Think Fleming is ever going to show up as an NWSL player? So much potential but not (yet) realized. What is her disconnect about??
So far I’m not seeing “MIA”. She’s “here”: she’s working. What I’m guessing you mean is “show up as advertised”, show up as the game-changer her CWNT palmares says she is…and I’m guessing “that’s not who she is at the club level”. I think what we’re seeing is what we’ve got.
That’s a bit disappointing if you see her international c.v. as her base level. But I’m increasingly convinced it’s not. I think she’s a journeywoman midfielder, and what she’s doing now IS what she can do. So the trick is the gaffer needs to find a use for her as that, or let the GM know she’s superfluous to requirements and start shopping for trades.
Thanks for the thoughts. I keep waiting and waiting- thinking there will be some magic moment where all the excitement attached to her is manifest. I do like the description of a “journeywoman midfielder” for her. And we def need more than that.
It depends. If we are paying her Gabby Provenzano wages? Then if she’s never more than a squad player? Fine. Everybody needs squad players.
If we’re paying her Sophia Smith money? Then no. We’re paying too much. She’s a cap hit we’re not getting value for.
My guess is it’s Door #2. But that’s just a guess.
Well, she's Door #2 for the roster construction, coaching, rotations, tactics, and quality of opposition she's facing so far.
I think we won't know for sure until this time next year.
Any actual idea what she's making, or, more specifically, how much cap space her contract takes up? I mean, we've got a bunch of veteran players like Sauerbrunn and Sinclair who have to be sitting on fat contracts. So I could see Fleming being expensive but not "that expensive" when put alongside the others as a cap hit...
Well when KK signed Janine Beckie, I remember it reported by media at the time as being one of the largest salaries in the league (which…?)
Makes me thing Jessie is more. If we paid that sort of transfer fee for her…I’m guessing we also took a major cap hit. Jessie is Canadian royalty, so I’m guessing she’s on a fat contract.
No idea, as "The NWSL agrees that a Player’s salary shall not be disclosed to third parties by the NWSL or its Teams without the prior, written consent of the NWSLPA."
However, Spotrac has info about contract status of all players. Generally fairly reliable.
https://www.spotrac.com/nwsl/portland-thorns-fc/cap/_/year/2024
Fleming is under contract through 2026, then becomes a restricted FA.
Interestingly, Hubs, Becky, and Bixby are out of contract after 2024 and become unrestricted FAs. We hold Payne's NWSL rights for 2025, but she too is OOC.
Smith has a player option for 2026, which makes this offseason and how next year goes absolutely crucial.
https://x.com/tayvincent6/status/1805979183052628161
Roster! Krueger gets Morgan’s spot pushing Dunn to the the wing, but everything else pretty much as expected. Soph and Macario the only nines.
Also: SO proud of Sam, man. Got her chance last season and absolutely locked down the starting six position on one of the best national teams in the world. Very cool!
I can’t imagine how fulfilled and excited she feels. Being a player who DIDN’T come up in the youth system, I bet it feels like an incredible milestone. And she absolutely earned and deserves it.
This is the exact roster I wrote out myself! I really wanted Krueger to go. Watched in the most recent Gotham v Spirit match and she was v good. Crystal didn’t play well (and hasn’t really had a great season with Gotham) but I thought her flexibility was always gonna win out on a short roster since she can actually play on all three lines. Wish Korbin wasn’t there, but they do need more defensive/box to box coverage. Personally would’ve preferred Yohannes (or Herschfelt!), but didn’t think KA would be omitted considering her consistent inclusion. Anyways…Soph and Coffey are gonna be playing a lot of minutes lol.
Thinking more about the Stoney firing because of how explosive the reaction was:
- People are really mad about firing Stoney the person -- a very popular former player who is outspoken about player treatment and LGBTQ rights, and moved her family across the world and got a long term extension recently-- which is coloring their attitude towards her coaching.
- On the other hand, the media are acting as though her coaching was elite. The amount of points she won the shield with last season --37-- is EASILY the fewest it's ever taken to win. The next closest is the Reign winning with 40 the year before, but the average is closer to 45. I don't want to take away from the Shield win entirely because it's still an impressive feat, but the league was an absolute mess last season. SD's relative defensive stability made them best of a bad bunch.
- She finished 4th in the WSL three times in three years with United. Not like she overachieved there.
- There's not an "elite tier" of woso coaches established yet outside of Hayes like there are with the men, so media are racing to put coaches they like in that tier. Not sure what Stoney has done to even be thought about as an elite coach, but I've seen a lot of people putting her there,
All in all: Really weird! I think it's a slightly reactive firing given she HAS had the Wave in a really good spot for most of her tenure, and I don't think it's great from SD from a people-management perspective especially given the prickly reputations of Ellis and Ashton, but the reaction to the move has been bizarre.
It does feel like Angel City has underperformed under Stoney, and being a good person can only take you so far (see: Norris, Mike). I'm actually a bit surprised this didn't happen earlier, though of course the Shield was a major score for her.
Wait, so now Ellis is saying that Ashton wasn’t even involved? So they fired Stoney without input from the person they just hired to run the team? Seems like bad process!
Well, that answers the question of whether it was the collective we or the royal we.
The problem with the lack of patience is that this is a parity league. It's very easy to have an off year.
Still, you've gotta know when the coach isn't getting through to the players anymore, isn't meeting expectations, isn't utilizing the available talent to its highest result, etc.
Yeah, and to be clear, I want to distinguish between my thoughts on Stoney the coach and how SD went about the process:
- I don't think Stoney is an elevating coach. I agree with SD's desire to bring in someone better. I don't get the love *for her coaching abilities*.
- I think the process is pretty crap, especially given Ashton wasn't consulted (or was, but is now being protected because of her rep, which might be worse).
- I agree with the general consensus and don't love that Stoney was fired months after she signed an extension. That's not great from a communication perspective and feels rash. That said, the human element wouldn't even be brought up in, say, the NFL/NBA/MLS, for better or worse.
Lol man could you imagine having Ellis and Ashton above you and trying to just...do your job.
Yeah, either way is, uhm, not great lol. I have to say, it's nice to finally not be in the shitshow spotlight for once!
So just a fun lil news day today, huh? Here's another:
"🚨BREAKING🚨
#BayFC announced today that Lucy Rushton has resigned from her role as the club’s General Manager. #NWSL
The club has accepted her resignation, and Matt Potter will serve as head of football and interim sporting director."
Um....can the Bhathals hire her plz??
Bay obviously promoted Potter to prevent Ashton from hiring him just so she can fire him again.
Lol
Given how poorly the BFC team building looks now..? Hmm…
TBF, I don't think it's as much a roster construction issue as it is a coaching issue first, and then just the fact they are an expansion club with unlucky injuries in key areas. Their midfield is def v light. Oshoala has been...not good, and that's pretty unexpected. Kundananji has been average. That's more on the scouting....but the personnel decisions with the rest of the roster are pretty good, and you'd expect them to be gelling a lot better than they are....but yeah, they can't get their F's to score and the tactics have been pretty bad. They have a lot of really good players, though, imo....the back end of their roster is better than the back end of our roster.
But you're right, I'm just desperate to be rid of KK honestly...
The knowledgeable folks from whom I'd heard "Karina is terrible at her job" have yet to be wrong about any of the things they've told me about players and coaches -- who would do well, who would not, and why. So, take that for whatever it's worth.
"...desperate to be rid of KK ..."
I think things are going to have to get way worse than they are now for that to happen. And it's going to have to be clear that it's her, not the coach.
I'm not super impressed with LeBlanc, but I have liked some of her moves., What I want to see is what happens in the offseason after a full season of Bhathals ownership. Up to this point I blame a lot on the loooong hiatus because of the pending sale. The sale was completed during the offseason, of course, but a lot of arrangements need to be lined up far in advance.
Just being honest. Again, I'm still trying to be patient....I don't think she did enough the first couple years she was here, and well, I know a bit too much about some other stuff to not color my opinions of her (incl players disliking her)...but you're right, I'm inclined to really see what she can do in this summer window and offseason, fully supported. She's got a lot of dead weight to shed, though, and we seem to keep adding more of it rather than losing it. It's going to need to be an offseason for the books if she wants to crack the top of the league next year...we have good foundational pieces but we have quite a ways to go to touch those top 4 teams now. Winning the Championship really came at the worst time, because we weren't able to capitalize on it at all like other clubs would. No one wanted to come to Portland at that time. We need to fill a lot of holes in our starting XI now, as well as really bring the floor up with our depth. Sinc, and potentially Kling and Becky retiring will def take some cap space off the books, but it'll also take a ton of leadership as well. There's other large contracts that also may not be here next year (like Beckie, as rumored) to take off the books, so they really ought to have a sizeable amount of $$$ to work with.
I really hope there's a holistic plan for their roster-building. That's all to say that we also need a good coach with a very clear plan, and (hopefully) the ability to work closely with KK to let her know the type of players to get to execute that vision. Withholding final judgement until preseason next year, but it's easy to become impatient while some clubs are doing all the right things when I feel like we've just been living in limbo and/or dying on the vine very slowly before our eyes over the last several seasons. Much of it, because we've basically had interim coaches for multiple years now + controversy + sale limbo. But again, tryyyyyying to be patient. :)
Yeah, Chicago got a start on us in terms of moving on because their sale happened so quickly. Seattle is behind because theirs took even longer, although they didn't have the untouchable stigma to the same degree.
Not this year, and very possibly not next year, but this too shall pass.
On the plus side, the reconstruction process should be interesting, and hopefully eventually satisfying, to watch. And as long as the Thorns continue to select players for character as well as skill, I will find them an easy team to root for, whatever the fortunes of the moment.
Wow, great post, my sentiments exactly. I just posted something similar before seeing this. I'll feel much better with a new GM. Less concerned about the coach at the moment. More concerned about roster management. Yes, getting the right coach that gets the most out of this roster is important, but getting the right players and managing the cap / assets is much more important, IMO.
I'm with you. I'd love a top, difference-making GM and I have my KK complaints --particular re: roster balance-- but this talk of her as the unmitigated disaster at fault for many of the Thorns' issues is just objectively untrue.
In reality, the most important parts of NWSL GMing is scouting (I've liked all the moves since the Bhathals took over), retaining stars (Soph signed a contract), and coach hiring (tbd).
Did you like the Fleming acquisition to a record deal? I mean, there have been what, maybe 5 or so moves since they took over (Soph's short-term deal plus 3 signings on defense that was not really a priority plus a record deal for Fleming that looks like a bust in terms of cost of acquisition and cost against the cap)? Are you including the Kuikka debacle? This same front office also hired / promoted the last two coaches who have turned out to be...not great. No, not an unmitigated disaster, but definitely moving in the wrong direction. Will Soph want to stick around with this incompetent roster balance? Things can take a turn for the worse quickly if you're not careful.
Well:
- I did like the Fleming deal when it happened and still do, though I understand I'm in the minority. Signing an in-her-prime Canadian captain with her pedigree was a no-brainer for me. I get it hasn't clicked yet --and who knows if it ever will, though "early disappointment" would be a much more accurate characterization than "bust" to describe her given her underlying metrics-- but let's not act like it was bad process. I'm going (to try) to not engage in anymore Fleming discourse until the end of the season.
- I love the Müller acquisition. A+ signing for me.
- Obaze hasn't played enough to get a complete grade, but I really liked what I saw from her and she (and Payne) are the exact type of young, high potential players I want the Thorns to bring in.
- I think most of us assumed Soph would test free agency. Getting that deal done when she had no reason to commit to even one more year is HUGE and shows SHE has trust in the process. That means something to me.
- I can't speak to the details of Kuikka deal, but I trust those who say KK screwed it up. That said, Natu was mediocre most of last season and Reyes has been a perfectly fine replacement.
- I don't like the roster balance, especially the dearth of wingers and the surplus of strikers and GKs. That needs to be improved.
- There is some dead weight on this roster that needs to be shed this offseason. I expect that some of it will be, and I will criticize the FO if it isn't.
- I don't blame KK *at all* for the Norris hire. That was a "keep stability" move after the RW incident with an owner that was never in a million years going to pay a new big name coach. The players themselves have expressed gratitude on that front, which matters to me too.
So, in summary: I don't think KK is particularly good, but I don't blame her for every issue. I think the signings have been mostly quite good. The team is not a disaster, it's just not as good as the very best teams. There is a lot of roster work to do to repair the damage of the last two years of the Paulson era when he shut and locked his pocketbook, and I've been very clear that I want to see how this next offseason plays out with real ownership support before I make a judgement on the FO. I know Thorns fans aren't used to down seasons and are prone to "the world is ending" hyperbole when the team isn't in the top three, but the league is in a better, more competitive place now and the Thorns were never going to fix every roster issue in one abbreviated offseason. I completely disagree that the Thorns are moving in the wrong direction. They've *been* moving in the wrong direction for three years and it takes time to turn the ship around. As I've said, I too would prefer if someone better than KK was captain of that ship, but I'm willing to give it until the end of the next offseason to see what the Bhathals do.
Hope that was a good answer to your questions.
I honestly think their team building has been mostly fine. They’ve suffered mostly from their captain and starting six going down with an ACL games into the season and their stars taking some time to adapt to the league when a lot of people (myself included) thought they’d come in and be good right away. I think they’ll be alright long term
I dunno. They have been such a shitshow up to this point that I can't separate the injuries from the coaching from the lack of collective cohesion. I'm not impressed enough to be excited about Rushton, anyway. Haley Carter? Ohhellyes. Rushton? Enh, probably better than KK, but that's a goddamn low bar.
Yeah I'm not saying I'm interested in Rushton, but I'd personally put more blame on the players and the coach at this point.
Fair enough.