I think Betfort has more upside at this point than Hubly, who by now is basically a finished product. I'd be willing to part with Hubs to facilitate roster protection.
I think Betfort has more upside at this point than Hubly, who by now is basically a finished product. I'd be willing to part with Hubs to facilitate roster protection.
I know we’ve had this argument before lol, but I still find it absolutely bizarre you value Betfort anywhere near Hubly.
The only way protecting Betfort makes any sense at all is if you’re *incredibly* high on her potential as a real, legitimate backup striker (which I am not), and even then it doesn’t really make a ton of sense to me. There’s literally a Betfort on every team in the league, including the Thorns! I’d just as well bet on Izzy, who is two years younger and never really got a real chance this season. Otherwise, you’re picking a player who has shown nothing more than occasional flashes over one who is extremely experienced, recently made a best 11 team, was an iron woman on a team that won a championship, and never gets injured. Good CBs don't grow on trees!
No, they don't grow on trees, and that's kinda the point.
Hubly has been here since 2016, going through years of conversion-and-development. I think she took a clear step back this year, and he has returned to being our 3rd CB when the others are healthy. She's going on 30, and we need to focus on upgrading the backline.
Conversely, I'm going to remind you of something the current conversion-and-development project did this year with the 18 y/o midfielder who just got her first callups to the Nats:
- There’s an argument she’s the one of the worst backup forwards we’ve ever had! From 2017-2022: I’d take Nadia, Foord, Charley, AMC, rookie Weaver, and maybe even the Lussi/Everett combo over her. It’s an active position of weakness right now!
- That goal was great. I’m also not sure showing one of the two league goals she scored this season really does that much for me.
- I don’t really agree Hubly took a step back any more than Natu, Menges, or Kling...all of whom have looked pretty dreadful under Norris.
- Of course Betfort has more "upside" than Hubly. The question is why would we protect a fringe player who might kinda sorta end up being fine over one we know is capable of playing well in an important role? It’s not like we’re talking about keeping Kelli over Moultrie here.
- 30 is hardly old, especially for a CB.
I’d like Betfort to stick around. I’ll also be real disappointed if she’s our backup striker next season.
We're going to go around and around here. Let's try something else:
- With her first regular playing time, Betfort visibly improved. She also did what Norris wanted her to do once Smith went down -- that is, provide high pressure. Betfort's work rate is off the charts.
- It's damn hard to convert to a successful forward. I once watched Caitlin Foord completely flop in a 1-on-1 session with Mark Parsons, in which he provided only light positional marking and there was no one in goal. When I say "flop," I don't think she put 25% percent of her shots on frame.
- 30 is not old for CB, but it is for a CB who has stopped improving and who took a big step backward last year, including in work rate. I think you're forgetting the number of times she didn't hustle back on defense, didn't hustle over to her mark, misplayed balls out of sheer casualness, and absolutely cost the team. That goal from Betfort - which is all touch and speed - came after Hubly put the entire team in a dreadful hole with that red card.
- If the Betfort experiment doesn't work out, she can reconvert to CB. However, Hubly is what she is -- a former forward converted to CB who doesn't hustle all the time on the pitch, who makes really dumb mistakes, and doesn't always care to settle the ball or pass well.
If I have to decide between a B/B- that has already reached their peak and a C/C+ who is still on their way up, fewer years on the clock, costs less, and who has greater athleticism, hustle, and the ability to reconvert to CB if needed, that's where I stand IF IT COMES TO THAT.
I agree, there's several backup 9's I'd probably take in the league over Betfort and I'd only protect her if we had maybe 13 protection spots lol. I think we could probably find better elsewhere, be it the draft or a transfer. I think it'd be great if she was here next season but I wouldn't be too bummed if she wasn't and I'd absolutely not protect her over Hubly. I mean, shoot, Messiah Bright was drafted in the 3rd round and is up for ROTY. But she still doesn't always start. I think the drop at our 6 and our 9 positions are the steepest on this team, and I think they should still attempt to rectify that, regardless of who starts there. Hell, I'd take Tess Boade over Betfort. I'd take any of Gotham's second strikers. Chicago even has one that I'd rather have (though I swear I can't tell the difference between like 5 of their players so I'm not sure of names.) We can do better, and we need to with our current 9 being a top international and likely away often.
Well, pointing to Messiah Bright in the 3rd round just means that other teams who didn't select her failed in the draft, at least so far. Which is also par for the course, as far more drafted players in all sports don't pan out.
Oh, I guess I just considered that 3rd round. 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, ect... but yeah, there was more than 10 teams in the league. Still, end of the 2nd! Many teams will def want a re-do. I'm still sad we got rid of Ryan for Reyes. Only time will tell if that was actually a good decision....
Yeah, in hindsight I think MB fits our system and play style a lot more than D'Aquila and I'm sad we didn't take her instead, but that's the draft for ya....my point is just that the bar to find better than Betfort isn't that high, and I think we could and should. I just don't see enough in her skillset to be our primary goalscorer every time Soph is out for int'l duty (or if, say, Soph is injured.) Like I said, I'd be happy if she's still around but I wouldn't protect her. I like her energy, but I prefer a more tactical player to one that's just big/strong. Her touch is really poor also, and that doesn't work when she's asked to play a back-to-goal/holdup 9. Honestly wish they'd try her more on the wing. I don't hate having her as a winger sub as much as a sub for the 9 behind Soph. She played there a couple times and I thought it was when she looked her best. Not as a lone 9. In the game I'm thinking of, she beat/muscled Po off the ball/to the touchline all night and sent some really pretty crosses in from the RW. And we can still use her as a high-pressing sub. More of that instead!
I actually think the opposite. I think her touch is pretty good, certainly for a player of her size and speed, but she's still figuring out how to play at that speed. You can get away with a lot if you're that big and fast, tho -- I mean, look at Jessica McDonald, who I think generally has a brutal first touch but damn if she hasn't produced offensively!
I think Betfort's first touch is no worse now than Weaver's was when she came into the league. And it's taken a couple of years for Weaver to get to the level where she is now.
More often than not, what I see in terms of Betfort's touch is her leaving a pass just a bit short because she's trying not to hit it too hard, but that will get sorted out. The ideas are definitely there.
Like I said in response to kielj, she's doing better as a substitute forward (at least for what we're doing) than anyone else we've had here in a long time, probably since Nadim and Raso here. Which means, of course, they don't grow on trees. We've had Caitlin Foord, AMC, and Adriana Leon as substitute forwards, and I think Betfort has potential to be better here than any of them did here. But *potential* is the operative word.
I think Betfort has more upside at this point than Hubly, who by now is basically a finished product. I'd be willing to part with Hubs to facilitate roster protection.
I know we’ve had this argument before lol, but I still find it absolutely bizarre you value Betfort anywhere near Hubly.
The only way protecting Betfort makes any sense at all is if you’re *incredibly* high on her potential as a real, legitimate backup striker (which I am not), and even then it doesn’t really make a ton of sense to me. There’s literally a Betfort on every team in the league, including the Thorns! I’d just as well bet on Izzy, who is two years younger and never really got a real chance this season. Otherwise, you’re picking a player who has shown nothing more than occasional flashes over one who is extremely experienced, recently made a best 11 team, was an iron woman on a team that won a championship, and never gets injured. Good CBs don't grow on trees!
No, they don't grow on trees, and that's kinda the point.
Hubly has been here since 2016, going through years of conversion-and-development. I think she took a clear step back this year, and he has returned to being our 3rd CB when the others are healthy. She's going on 30, and we need to focus on upgrading the backline.
Conversely, I'm going to remind you of something the current conversion-and-development project did this year with the 18 y/o midfielder who just got her first callups to the Nats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1CxQzVZffo
That wasn't an accident, it was a glimpse of what's possible.
She's a better substitute at forward than we've had in a long time, and I'd like to see to see what she does with another year here.
If I have to focus on who I think still has more upside, I'll take Betfort.
I mean, a few things:
- There’s an argument she’s the one of the worst backup forwards we’ve ever had! From 2017-2022: I’d take Nadia, Foord, Charley, AMC, rookie Weaver, and maybe even the Lussi/Everett combo over her. It’s an active position of weakness right now!
- That goal was great. I’m also not sure showing one of the two league goals she scored this season really does that much for me.
- I don’t really agree Hubly took a step back any more than Natu, Menges, or Kling...all of whom have looked pretty dreadful under Norris.
- Of course Betfort has more "upside" than Hubly. The question is why would we protect a fringe player who might kinda sorta end up being fine over one we know is capable of playing well in an important role? It’s not like we’re talking about keeping Kelli over Moultrie here.
- 30 is hardly old, especially for a CB.
I’d like Betfort to stick around. I’ll also be real disappointed if she’s our backup striker next season.
We're going to go around and around here. Let's try something else:
- With her first regular playing time, Betfort visibly improved. She also did what Norris wanted her to do once Smith went down -- that is, provide high pressure. Betfort's work rate is off the charts.
- It's damn hard to convert to a successful forward. I once watched Caitlin Foord completely flop in a 1-on-1 session with Mark Parsons, in which he provided only light positional marking and there was no one in goal. When I say "flop," I don't think she put 25% percent of her shots on frame.
- 30 is not old for CB, but it is for a CB who has stopped improving and who took a big step backward last year, including in work rate. I think you're forgetting the number of times she didn't hustle back on defense, didn't hustle over to her mark, misplayed balls out of sheer casualness, and absolutely cost the team. That goal from Betfort - which is all touch and speed - came after Hubly put the entire team in a dreadful hole with that red card.
- If the Betfort experiment doesn't work out, she can reconvert to CB. However, Hubly is what she is -- a former forward converted to CB who doesn't hustle all the time on the pitch, who makes really dumb mistakes, and doesn't always care to settle the ball or pass well.
If I have to decide between a B/B- that has already reached their peak and a C/C+ who is still on their way up, fewer years on the clock, costs less, and who has greater athleticism, hustle, and the ability to reconvert to CB if needed, that's where I stand IF IT COMES TO THAT.
I agree, there's several backup 9's I'd probably take in the league over Betfort and I'd only protect her if we had maybe 13 protection spots lol. I think we could probably find better elsewhere, be it the draft or a transfer. I think it'd be great if she was here next season but I wouldn't be too bummed if she wasn't and I'd absolutely not protect her over Hubly. I mean, shoot, Messiah Bright was drafted in the 3rd round and is up for ROTY. But she still doesn't always start. I think the drop at our 6 and our 9 positions are the steepest on this team, and I think they should still attempt to rectify that, regardless of who starts there. Hell, I'd take Tess Boade over Betfort. I'd take any of Gotham's second strikers. Chicago even has one that I'd rather have (though I swear I can't tell the difference between like 5 of their players so I'm not sure of names.) We can do better, and we need to with our current 9 being a top international and likely away often.
Well, pointing to Messiah Bright in the 3rd round just means that other teams who didn't select her failed in the draft, at least so far. Which is also par for the course, as far more drafted players in all sports don't pan out.
Actually, Bright was picked #21 (2nd Round) -- I had to just look that up -- and I think there are a few teams that might want a re-do.
Oh, I guess I just considered that 3rd round. 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, ect... but yeah, there was more than 10 teams in the league. Still, end of the 2nd! Many teams will def want a re-do. I'm still sad we got rid of Ryan for Reyes. Only time will tell if that was actually a good decision....
Yeah, in hindsight I think MB fits our system and play style a lot more than D'Aquila and I'm sad we didn't take her instead, but that's the draft for ya....my point is just that the bar to find better than Betfort isn't that high, and I think we could and should. I just don't see enough in her skillset to be our primary goalscorer every time Soph is out for int'l duty (or if, say, Soph is injured.) Like I said, I'd be happy if she's still around but I wouldn't protect her. I like her energy, but I prefer a more tactical player to one that's just big/strong. Her touch is really poor also, and that doesn't work when she's asked to play a back-to-goal/holdup 9. Honestly wish they'd try her more on the wing. I don't hate having her as a winger sub as much as a sub for the 9 behind Soph. She played there a couple times and I thought it was when she looked her best. Not as a lone 9. In the game I'm thinking of, she beat/muscled Po off the ball/to the touchline all night and sent some really pretty crosses in from the RW. And we can still use her as a high-pressing sub. More of that instead!
I actually think the opposite. I think her touch is pretty good, certainly for a player of her size and speed, but she's still figuring out how to play at that speed. You can get away with a lot if you're that big and fast, tho -- I mean, look at Jessica McDonald, who I think generally has a brutal first touch but damn if she hasn't produced offensively!
I think Betfort's first touch is no worse now than Weaver's was when she came into the league. And it's taken a couple of years for Weaver to get to the level where she is now.
More often than not, what I see in terms of Betfort's touch is her leaving a pass just a bit short because she's trying not to hit it too hard, but that will get sorted out. The ideas are definitely there.
Like I said in response to kielj, she's doing better as a substitute forward (at least for what we're doing) than anyone else we've had here in a long time, probably since Nadim and Raso here. Which means, of course, they don't grow on trees. We've had Caitlin Foord, AMC, and Adriana Leon as substitute forwards, and I think Betfort has potential to be better here than any of them did here. But *potential* is the operative word.