He's a keeper at least...and there are several others. Next year will be rebuilding, hopefully with a new coach who's able to create a system that gets the best out of his players. There's a lot of raw talent on the roster, but no heart anymore. I love Gio as a person, but the rest of the league has improved and teams have figured out how to beat the Timbers, even at P Park. I have been a STH since long before MLS, but I am sad to say this might be the last season, unless there are some big improvements in management and performance.
The roster has some points in role players and players that should be depth like Asprilla. McGraw, Bravo, Mosquera, Moreno, and Ivacic to name a few. But the top down players aren’t good. Yimmi was never amazing but he’s injured all season basically, Blanco is not what he was, and Niezgoda has been bad for 2-3 years. That’s 3 max cap TAM or DP players not making a difference and you have one of them you can ditch for cap relief they refuse to use. Add to that Evander starting slow and adjusting to the league and playing with a mostly bad mls level attack and you get not even a handful of goals over 9 games. Even the players know we don’t have the talent. Gio aside, a fantastic manager would be lucky to make the playoffs with this shitty squad. You can’t have 3 top level max cap hit players just not contributing and rely on depth and one DP and be any good I. This league especially when you have no depth at CB.
I'll like to ask the Gio apologists where the line in the sand is. Is it when we're completely healthy? When there is roster turnover - if, when, hopefully? - or is it when and most likely we miss playoffs? Or maybe get the wooden spoon?
Today on the Timbers subreddit - mentioned this on the game thread - that some folks kept sticking to the injury line. Then threr's the talent explanation. Gio has a say in the roster and he clearly didn't see a problem with not using trying to offload Mabs, Niezgoda, etc. during the offseason. He was also just fine trading away Tulioma to get money for Ayala, if I'm correct. He's not blameless with thr roster construction, alright? And we've had injuries practically every season. He could have said something about the training staff or just like asked wthat the hell was up.
Today's lineup was dire. And his subs were a cry for help. Yo, Gio: what's up with playing Loria and Mabs instead of starting Mosquera and then shifting Miller to cb and taking Mabs out at the half? There's also starting Boli and Niezgoda together - I have no idea what Goda does at training in order to still get pt but I suspect its partially injuries and he's better than what we've got - except for Boli.
That 2nd half was a meltdown just like the last 5 or so minutues of the first half. I'm not intersted in whatever Gio says postgame. Unless it is to say that he's resigning. If MP even still gives a damn about the team, he wil fire Gio NOW. Not wait untill th end of the seaso; we've missed playoffs again; and gotten the first pick in the draft. Hell, do we even have a first round pick next year?
At least the announcers didn't mention Antonion Conte. That's apparently just one suggestion for TFC's next ocach. Meanwhile, we'lll falling behind with a lower level coach whose managerial ability has been overmatched by a rapidly improving league.
I was first in line for the apologies and the injuries. I am done. The line is crossed. It happened when we stopped competing. That was the line for me. It was a couple games ago that it really started to wane. But today it never felt like we could win.
Gio deserves plenty of criticism for the current form. But, roster construction? There was a large contingent of the fan base that was #PayValeri that was probably a good reason Jebo was shipped to make cap room. And medical staff with injuries is above Gio's pay grade.
I've said this before and I still feel it's true. This is either Gio's roster and he's responsible or he has very little say in the roster and therefore isn't a manager, but just a game-day sideline coach. Either way he needs to be replaced with a proper manager.
Ned "taking the blame" doesn't mean that Gio didn't agree to get rid of Tui and replace him with "thoughts and prayers"
Both Gio and Ned intended to replace Tuiloma. I don’t think they would’ve gotten rid of Bill if they didn’t think they could land a CB in the winter. We tried to get Araujo, but his club wasn’t willing to deal (man what a big help he would’ve been for this season though). The biggest mistake in my opinion that Gio has made in the whole center back thing is not playing Miller over Mabiala at CB when needed. I think he’s a perfectly adequate player to step in and fill in, and if he had there’s a decent chance we’d have a few more points right now
Not to put a wet blanket on the new signing, but I noticed Araujo isn't particularly big (5-11 and 161 pounds - Paredes' size!), so I hope he can deal with this league.
He also can play right back. I wonder if he will get the Miller treatment and not play CB - LOL.
Chara? He is big. Gotta big heart. He's got thighs the size of Western Cedar tree trunks. He's not tall, and thus, he doesn't play on the back line, where he isn't required to head the ball clear. That said, I hope you're right about Araujo.
For every person here complaining about Gio or saying he needs to go.
This roster sucks, and that’s not to say Gio is great or anything but who the hell do you this piss poor ownership group is going to get to make it better? They couldn’t even replace Grabavoys position for like 6 months and took forever to give him the GM job. You have 3 TAM/DP players that for various reasons aren’t playing or aren’t performing yet they refuse to amnesty one and get a better 9 or attacking piece. Just a completely unambitious organization from the top down. Yes GW left the roster in a bad state. So you think they’re going to come in here and hire a guy who is literally going to do better while knowing the organization is a complete shit show from the top down. When I see these results I don’t immediately think Gio out (although that may need to happen too) but I think Merrit should sell the team and let a group who can handle business step in. Until then you’re likely not getting a better coach, but even if you did, you might barely squeak into the playoffs with this squad.
There’s a reason Zuparic said that other teams bring in better players and we don’t have the talent. He’s right and the club has made bad decisions for years when it comes to roster moves. Fernandez, was a big chance and it blew up on them. Signing Yimmi was deeply unambitious. Niezgoda was a big risk. Mabiala being on a longer contract. Trading Ebobisse. Selling Bill without being in someone else. I’ve been saying it all season but this isn’t a good team with functionally one DP and missing some TAM players that are or could be serious contributors. The FO and organization messed up and if you ask that same organization to bring in a new coach just good luck on them being any good. I know if I was a fantastic coach they’d want the organization would be very low on my list of clubs to work for.
One of the things I look at when I watch this team play is that it seems devoid of any difference makers, at least on the offensive side. Maybe Evander will get there (I think he can), but when I saw him running the counter and watch him basically dribble the ball into the CB instead of passing it to one of the other 4-5 open players, it's just frustrating. If it had been Blanco or Valeri in 2017-21, that would have been a goal. Both Valeri and Blanco could put the team on their backs and get us the needed goal.
Also, who's the one the pitch leader on this team? Diego is a great lead by example guy and always has. But where is the Ridgy organizing the set pieces and telling which guy is marking which. Who is the steady presence guy like Jewsbury that can pull a guy aside and talk to them when needed?
I think Zup was 100% correct in his assessment and glad he called the organization out. I'm hoping when the dead weight comes off the books next year, we see this team get more ambitious. But maybe MP is content with just having the Thorns be good.
MP isn’t going to own the thorns so hopefully he’s either ready to pony up the cash or sell. The organization has suffered under really poor leadership though.
These are fair points. Gio made two finals with middle tier (at best) squads. That’s impressive. Ever since Fernandez flamed out I really wanted to see him with Evander level talent.
He has it now and nothing is happening. The lineup has been inconsistent with injuries and availabilities, but when we have Evander, Moreno, and Boli starting most of a run of 7 games in which we score three goals, I’m pointing my finger at Gio. He has no creativity. I think his usefulness is expired.
However, for games like last night we can also look at the complete failure of roster construction. I don’t know what goes to Ned there because, as you said, the executives above him have been as effective as Niezgoda in staffing the GM and its office.
One DP who’s still adjusting to the league is the talent needed? I feel like the jury is still out on Evander but trade our attack with any top teams (LAFC, SEA[gross], STL, CIN) and they’re immediately borderline playoff teams. He does t have talent. No good team has one good DP and 4 players on max cap hit TAM/DP(Niezgoda, Blanco, Mabiala, Chara) who just aren’t good or can’t produce. So they bring in a CB late who hopefully will help, and maybe a young winger (2024 move) and Boli as a 9 who isn’t a starting quality MLS striker. I hope he sticks around and as a backup but he’s not a starter on a good mls side.
Gio may not be the guy long term but a bad attacking roster is going to produce bad attacking results pretty much regardless of manager. If the team was serious they’d drop Niezgoda or one of the other DP players and bring in a string starting quality 9 on the way to a bigger rebuild in 2024. I just think a bad roster is not going to magically make a good team with a good manager. I would have hoped for better even with this squad but we all should have known it was bad because it was bad last year and all they did was add a playmaker despite chance creation not being their biggest issue.
You can't just "drop" a player though. You have to buy them out, and while that gets a team cap relief, it still costs them the player's salary. Niezgoda's contract expires at the end of the season; there's literally no reason to drop him now, because the new #9 you (and we) want would cost money on top of that money, so you're essentially paying twice for one roster spot.
All the non-Evander DP's are out of contract at the end of the season. It would be hard to find a reason to buy Niezgoda out now, because among other reasons, they're not one #9 away from being a Cup contender, and there isn't just a vending machine with a stock of elite #9's waiting for the Timbers to put their coins into. It would be a pretty big waste of money to drop a DP now and panic-buy someone else when this season is basically shot anyway.
I would expect the Timbers to do a lot of work this winter when they have several million in cap space clearing up (Niezgoda, Blanco, Y Chara represent almost $1.5M in cap space alone, depending on how much TAM Y Chara was bought down by), and Mabiala and Asprilla are almost another million.
Some of these guys will obviously re-sign, but this is all the contracts the Timbers have that are expiring at the end of the season:
I believe a front four with Evander, a ~developed (if inconsistent) Moreno, and an IN-FORM Boli (who I’ll agree would be great depth in a perfect world) is not a bad attacking roster at all. Especially if JDM is in.
The biggest problem for Gio with me is playing back foot, counter soccer for all but 10 minutes of every third game. I haven’t checked this week but until recently at least we were dead last in possession. It can win. I’m very tired of it. Again our front four, in my opinion, is capable of much, much more.
It won’t be blue skies if Gio is fired in season. In my opinion he has overachieved with weak and hamstrung rosters. These days it doesn’t feel like he’s coaching to talent. Outside of a stretch here and there it still feels like he’s just trying to recapture the precise counters of the peak Blanco era to mostly bad results, and almost entirely ugly results.
The front four isn't good. Evander might end up being really good. Moreno could also be very good. Both had injuries at the beginning of the season and Evander is new to the league. Boli is a guy who was playing top flight Hungarian league which is a step down from MLS and had 28 goals in 84 appearances. He's got some of the right attributes for the league in terms of his athleticism and he works, but he's just not a starting level 9 in MLS. Then you have a rotating cast filling in the "other spot" in Asprilla who I like, but has always been a bit up and down, or maybe Yimmi is healthy once in a blue moon and he's ok.
Good MLS teams have at least 2 good DPs, a couple TAM veterans who are good, and some young U22 or Homegrown talent that are good that haven't quite earned a big check yet. The timbers have a few good players, but they're a miss on several TAM/DP players and basically a couple injuries has rendered the attack useless.
I would like to see the team play a different style, but I don't also see them being built around possession soccer. If so you'd need an 8 who can really control tempo and wingers who can drop back and create overloads with fullbacks and CMs. It' snot really impossible, but I think most teams would be happy to cede some possession to Portland and let them try to break down an organized defense. I still think the bigger issues is talent and leadership by star players. I think this team would be way better with a solid DP 9, and a better DP winger than Chara.
Boli, who has 4 goals in the past 7 games in a bad offense as you say and is in the 84th percentile for non penalty goals in MLS despite being completely new to the league, isn’t MLS starting caliber? He might not be elite but he’s definitely starting caliber. He only has one less goal than Jebo despite playing literally half as many minutes. He’s got one more goal than Cucho in much less time. The guy is good. He’s not starting caliber for a championship winning side, but he’s absolutely starting caliber for MLS in general. We’re lucky to have him, him and Evander are carrying the offense
That’s fair but I still would like to see how he looks after 2000 minutes. Niezgoda also scored quite a bit early on. The one thing I will say about Boli is he has a high work rate and tries hard to check up when needed and makes runs when needed. His touch and movement sometimes still don’t seem “elite”. I’d still rather see a DP9 up top.
Of all the problems the Timbers roster has right now, Franck Boli is absolutely not one of them. He's outproducing every single Timber DP right now for a fraction of the cost.
"Good MLS teams have at least 2 good DPs, a couple TAM veterans who are good, and some young U22 or Homegrown talent that are good that haven't quite earned a big check yet"
The Timbers have one good DP, a decent amount of young talent, and some half-decent TAM guys. They're not that far off from being a lot better, but those DP contracts are destroying the ability to improve the team until this winter.
Yes, the roster does suck. A new coach won't magically make this team good. But I have to believe that a new coach might at least, as I've said before, turn some of these 4-1 losses into 2-1 losses or 2-2 draws, and at the very least produce some entertaining soccer. Gio has lost the ability to even do that.
"You have 3 TAM/DP players that for various reasons aren’t playing or aren’t performing yet they refuse to amnesty one"
Those three players are all out of contract at the end of this season. There's no way the Timbers are going to amnesty a player who will be gone in three months anyway; that's a huge waste of money for a move that won't do a whole lot to move the needle this season.
"They couldn’t even replace Grabavoys position for like 6 months and took forever to give him the GM job."
Just more anecdotal evidence for me that MP is checked out, and doesn't give a shit about his toy any more. He'll never sell because his ego likes being a sports team owner, but he seems to have decided that things are just gonna do what they do, and so be it. I believe this rot is intentional, and it's infuriating.
I agree with all points. A new coach maybe gets a bit better results but without better talent you’re just slowing down the sinking ship. Plus what actually good or better manager would step into this shit show right now? Hey I’d love to step into a job where I’m expected to get results with basically 1 DP and basically the rest of the attack as role players with some key players injured? So sure, I get that the team doesn’t want to amnesty a player who will be off the books next year anyway but if they wanted to me competitive they’d spend the money. I would also say if you’re throwing away 2023 why not give the coach a chance with a good roster if that’s the plan. The last two years the roster hasn’t been good enough. The years before that Gio got good results albeit I haven’t always liked his managing decisions and have questioned if he’s the answer. I guess that remains to be seen but I just think no manager is making this team good with its current roster.
You go all conservative with a 4-4-2. You put two "wingers" out there (Loria and Moreno) who don't provide much service and put an extra burden on Caliskan and a 36-year-old midfielder to hold down the midfield. What are you thinking Gio? Go for the draw?
Why not go with your usual 4-2-3-1 and put Moreno at the 10 and put Boli at a wing and Niezgoda at the point and for gods sake, no more Loria. (I would have gone with Fogaca).
What are you thinking Gio? I thought we already knew that Mabiala was done, and yet you start him. His giveaway led to the first goal. I'm not sure what involvement he had on the second because my apple tv feed was all screwed up, but all I know is that goals happen when he plays.
Bad job Ivavcic on the fourth goal - come out for goodness sakes.
The first half was the worst soccer I've seen in a long time. No possession - just boot it up. Wow. I hadn't seen that style since 2012. We are horrible. We couldn't win any second balls. It was just ugly. Nothing to write home about.
I said last week that Gio needed to chase the games because of the hole they were in, and he waits until he's down 2-0 and the 6oth minute to chase the game. Gio??? What the hell?
In this league, with the low bar for playoffs, you are never out until well after match day 25, sometimes as late as 34. But making the playoffs with this dumpster fire would be a pyrrhic victory (ba dum dum), unearned and probably convince management we were on the right track. Every team in the league deals with injuries, suspensions, national team call ups, but for us we think this is the reason for the really bad performances. It isn’t, it is coaching and roster construction. Could the roster be better? Sure, but even then I wouldn’t trust it to perform at maximum capacity.
Boli is the only guy on this team who looks the part. Good on him. Zuparic I’ll give credit to as he is consistent. I love Diego Chara, but he has shown his age this year and playing aside a rookie is not going to get it done. Bravo, Mosquera and Moreno should be much better, but constantly having to cover for weak spots diminishes their effectiveness and potential.
About half of this roster needs to be turned over. We have been passed by, lapped by the league and it is like we don’t see it. New ideas are needed on the sidelines too. It is just depressing to watch green and gold be so poor just about every week and then lie to myself that “maybe next week it will be better”.
"We have been passed by, lapped by the league and it is like we don’t see it."
Or, worse, MP sees it and does not give a shit. Which means we're stuck where we are.
I've said it before and I stick with it - this was always gonna be a rough season. This off season is going to be absolutely crucial for the Timbers, the roster can be significantly upgraded with some big money coming off the books. The question is will MP sign off on that level of rebuild, or is he just gonna still play the petulant baby and run his toy into the ground?
What did we do? Cheer too loud? I personally go to all the games I can manage, sing myself hoarse, contribute to the 107ist, and even go round back to meet the players, bump fists and offer them words of encouragement in person. Not sure what else to do here...
I see no prestige in being the team owner of a on-field wreck that will go into worse financial shape from diminishing attendance and fewer STH's in 2024. Stating that MP is content with running the team into the ground is a crazy concept, especially considering the ownership ego issue and wealth loss as an outcome.
The long-term problem for MP is that he knows squat about the technical side of soccer and up until recently had GW to obscure that fact. His new GM, Grabavoy, trained by flying around looking for cheap buys from second tier teams in S.America. Can he master the GM job and turn the organization around? Who knows? We don't even know how much of the current player mess is based on Grabavoy past rec's to management.
Our GM is probably hobbled by the fear that a replacement for Gio is a huge deal with very high risk. And his boss is hunkered down and wants no public visibility. So, he's new and it's all on his shoulders...
I guess I didn't mean "running the team into the ground" literally. I guess a more accurate way to describe it is "he'll still own the team but he won't ever significantly improve it".
He'll keep the Timbers ticking over at this level forever, because his initial $35M investment is currently, if Forbes is to be believed, worth over $650M, and with interest in MLS only growing in the next few years, that number will also grow. So MP's not going to try to destroy it; he's just going to put in the bare minimum amount of investment and sweat equity so that when he does cash out, it will be for even more than that.
I actually think Ned can do a good job, but I also think MP doesn't give him the resources - time, additional scouting depth, analytics, whatever - to be as successful as we all want him and the Timbers to be. MP's not interested, seemingly, in improving what he's got in a substantive way, and that's the most frustrating part of all of this to me.
Sincere question — what evidence do you have to support your view that Ned can do a good job? He seems like a great guy. But also a guy that was hired with zero, nil, nada, zilch experience in that role. Kind of a classic FO move — hire some random player or person because we know him.
I want him to succeed. But I’d rather PTFC had someone in that role with a proven record of succeeding. This club can’t afford to be Ned’s learning curve.
The moves he's made so far have been pretty good given the financial constraints he has. Boli has been a surprise, Miller is the kind of unspectacular-yet-solid guy that every MLS roster needs one of and that the Timbers haven't had since Zarek, and while I don't know how much hand he had in Evander (big deals take a long time and that may have been GW's baby to start with), he got that one done too.
So far, his only glaringly huge mistake was selling off Tuiloma, but he kinda had to do that because of the salary cap mess he inherited, thanks to GW's win-now approach, which GW paired with not being very good at identifying player who would do that. And his idea of giving raises to players who maybe didn't deserve them.
Who knows? Maybe Ned will suck when the team is fully under his control. But he's made decent moves given his limitations so far, and I'm just naive enough to hope that with more cap room/freedom, he'll keep doing the same.
Ned was reported to be one of the best #2s in the league. In recent years, people in #2 positions (assistant to the GM or coach) have done very well when given the chance. Cincinnati took Chris Albright and Pat Noonan from Philly (their assistant GM and assistant coach respectively) and put them in charge, and they turned the worst team in league history to potentially the best team in league history. Neither of them had any previous experience beyond being assistants. Miami took Chris Henderson, assistant GM in Seattle, and put him in charge, and he’s done good work. Miami are still shackled by mistakes from the previous group in charge and are terrible, but Henderson has done an insane amount of work to change things up there, and several key injuries are killing them. Atlanta took Gonzalo Pineda from Seattle (assistant coach) and he’s doing okay.
Ned isn’t the flashiest hire but it’s not like you just pick up someone who has tons of experience being a GM in MLS. They aren’t very common, and most of them have jobs. Many teams have GMs that had no prior experience. Hell, John Thorrington, GM of LAFC, had just retired from playing when he was appointed, and he went on and casually helped build one of the best constructed rosters ever. He had zero experience. A proven track record is great, but it’s not necessary
All the evidence we have is Tom Bogert saying Ned was one of the best and most respected assistant GM’s in the league, and for now that will have to do. Now that we’ve hired Jack Dodd who has lots of experience in Toronto to assist Ned, let’s see how they do
A gm is resposnible for negotiations with players and clubs over players. Meaning, contracts and transfers costs. The real issue with player scouting is the head scout. That person is responsible for finding the hidden gem and seeing the talent that hasn't fully shown itself.
Appreciate you responding. I hear what you're saying about the potential capital gains for owners in MLS, and maybe MP sees the increases in team value greatly exceeding inflation for a while yet. So- you and I better hope that MP sees valuations plateauing soon. Or we'll live with a Mike Ashley/Newcastle Utd type situation for years to come.
Thinking it through, should we hope that, operationally, the club craters badly - thereby eating into that huge valuation - causing MP to sell? There'll be new-buyer hesitation if the team's an on-pitch disaster and has low gameday revenue. The second wave of owners in MLS won't get those easy cap gains and will want it to be a viable business. And who will they be? Are we like the fans of most Premier League teams - we don't care how sketchy the next owners are as long as they're floating in cash?
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. I'm in Minnesota to visit family this week, so I got tickets for my wife and me to see the match. What I saw horrified me. It was every bit as bad as the past two matches against Chicago and NYCFC. Lack of coherency, lack of effort, and PTFC looked shellshocked, as if they were completely unprepared for what hit them.
I understand injuries, suspensions, short turn-arounds, etc. Yes, that does place stresses on the coaching staff and players. That said, I don't know that I've seen a side less prepared and less aggressive. The last 50 minutes were embarrassing.
This is largely the same side that went to MLS Cup Final in 2021. Now it's barely a shadow of that squad. I think it's time to look at a new voice on the sideline to shake things up.
"This is largely the same side that went to MLS Cup Final in 2021"
What people seem to forget about that 2021 squad - and I'm not accusing you of doing this, I'm just making the point - is that they weren't all that good. They only had four wins by July 1 (same as this season), and all of 7 by the end of August. They got hot at exactly the right time, nearly ran the table down the stretch (winning 10 of their last 13), and a few upsets elsewhere in the playoffs got the higher seeds out of the way and kinda greased the skids for them to make the final. But 2021 was not exactly Gio's best work, and it's only gotten worse from there.
"I hear Bob Bradley's out of a job"
I'm down. He's a good coach who likes a project, and that is exactly what the Timbers are right now. But, and I'm only half-kidding when I say this, literally any sentient human would probably get a better performance out of this team than Gio at this point.
Bradley ain't it. He has failed with two of the largest squad payrolls in the league. He is a "old school" coach with no ability to adapt. No thanks. The only established coaches I would want is Jesse marsch or Viera. Which I think both are beyond coaching in mls again.
If it were me and I was the owner. I would be going to BVB, RB Leipzig, Ajax, Barcelona and looking down the line for a coach from their academy teams. Find a coach that has been trained to develop young players, play a modern style, and have a good understanding of building and maintaining a "brand." Find a coach that has a history with these teams. One that has been in the system for awhile and has learned everything they need to. Those clubs are so large that they have a lot of coaches who are never given a chance to the top because of the many people ahead of them. You could find a guy or girl that has been in the "system" for awhile but is waiting for their chance in line. Go and find those hidden gems. find out who has the experience but is tired of waiting. Someone who is tired of being a supporting coach and wants a chance to be THE coach. Now they have the training regiments. They know what it takes to develop top players and being a culture of winning. Being an elite club. They would bring that elite mentality and winning ways to our club and implement it into our brand. Bvb and Ajax are my preferred teams to dig into. They have a history of developing world class players and having great communication and relationships with the fans. They are always competitive and always looking to adapt to new styles.
I would love Vieira but he's pretty entrenched at CP now I think. I've always been on board with Marsch too. But I also in a way would love a young coach like you're describing. I'm just unsure how many of them would come to MLS, but I'd love to find out if at least one would.
Viera is without a job right now. He was linked with leeds and the usmnt but no other rumors of being linked with anyone else. Neither leeds or usmnt chose him.
I think marsch will stay in Europe. Probably somewhere in Germany.
As for getting a coach from the bvb and Ajax coaching buffet that they have. Anyone would come for the right price and opportunity. If you are an assistant coach in and academy team, you aren't making a lot of money. You could even look at some of the supporting staff members on the bench. Maybe even the guy under the assistant coach. These are coaching staffs that have been together for a long time. The experience that they have down the bench is huge. Go and interview these coaches. see if their style, system and understanding of the game align with yours.
I'm pretty sure that an assistant or 2nd assistant on the bvb academy team, that has been a 2nd assistant for years, would love to have the opportunity to be a head coach. A head coach in one of the largest markets in the world. Substantially increasing your exposure over being a supporting role coach on an academy team. While also substantially increasing your wage. We not only need a coach but we need someone who creates a foundation for who we are as a club. To build a "brand" and give it a clear identity. That in itself could also be a big negotiation piece. They can build culture and brand in their image. Based on its success would lead to bigger opportunities. It's not a hard sell.
I didn't watch this one since I refuse to pay for that crap service MLS and Apple are putting out. Over the last 2 years it seems that PTFC, and to an extent MLS, has worked really hard to get people to stop being fans. From 2011-2022 I could count the number of games I missed on two hands. If I wasn't in the stadium (usually 4-6 games a season) I watched every game, whether live or on replay when I was busy. This season I've missed a bunch of games. I watch the games when they're on Apple TV free or the few that were broadcast, I did watch one game on a sketchy stream. I have refused to attend in-stadium games because I don't want to financially support an abuser.
The antics of the FO over the last few years, the dismissal of any wrongdoing by MP (essentially blaming the sexual misconduct on the team being made up of women, agreeing to sell only the Thorns), the new CEO being invisible and changing nothing, the lack signing any defensive players in the off season, the absolute garbage coaching from Gio, the constant list of injured players (why is everyone getting hurt?), the on-field displays of unwatchable soccer. It all adds up to turn someone who was a die-hard fan into a casual "if it's on and I have nothing better to do I'll watch it, otherwise I'll catch the lowlights later" fan.
MLS hiding it's entire market behind a paywall in the years before major marketing of the game in this country is a gamble for sure. They probably think that the hype from the world cup will increase viewership, but I feel that the market is there for the taking, and whoever sets up a good TV deal will gain the most fans, be it Premier league, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc. casuals will stick to what's accessible and become less casual. Anyway I've strayed way off topic.
Tomorrow's game in Colorado is behind the paywall and during my July 4th BBQ, so I'll catch the lowlight here again. Then it's a bit of a break to get healthy, or injure some more players in training, and another paywall game vs Crew maybe I'll find a stream, maybe I'll read a book. The San Jose and Tigres games are both on FS1 so I'll catch them.
I understand the performance based complaints but why are you complaining about a pay wall? All leagues are behind a pay wall. Bundasliga is ESPN. Epl is peacock. Champions league is Paramount+. I have all of them because I watch a lot of soccer. But if you only watch mls than why should paying to watch the team matter? Unless you just don't have the money to spend on it. Which happens to a lot of people but you don't need to mad about paying for a subscription, which I'm sure you do with a lot of other things, I'm sure.
For me it's not about paying for "a" subscription. It's about paying for "another" subscription.
As you mention, all leagues are behind a paywall, and the PL is technically behind three - Peacock for the league, Paramount+ for PL teams in the Champions League, ESPN+ for FA Cup. It's getting tiresome - and not cheap - to pay for yet another streaming service; I'm a STH so I get MLS on Apple free this year, but when they stop giving it to us free I will probably have to drop another streaming service if I want to pay for MLS on Apple.
To extend your metaphor, my closet can physically hold only so many shoes. If some new shoes come in, I have to choose whether to stack them in the corner of the room or get rid of some to get more space in my closet.
Or, in real world terms: money is finite. $14.99 monthly subscriptions are fine; if I need six subscriptions to six separate services to watch all the soccer I'd like to watch, though, all of a sudden I'm paying $90 a month. Many people, including myself, can't or won't do that.
That move to Apple has completely cut me off from MLS, after years of watching games. You can't even watch in a bar unless they have Apple TV. Bad move.
Colorado is probably already counting on three points. Hopefully they’ll be overconfident. I mean why not? Timbers can’t beat anyone. At least the Timbers won’t be overconfident!
I hate talking about the team when they don’t play well. Shit sucks. Chara getting an own goal stings, no one deserves it less than him. Starting Mabiala instead of Mosquera (and sliding Miller to CB) was the wrong call. Niezgoda sometimes looked decent but you just never ever get the sense that he’s going to score or assist.
I thought Caliskan played well, especially for a guy making his first start in that game. Needed to keep his shots down but that’s ok. Made some good tackles. Loria was also decent. Boli was good as usual. Moreno was cutting inside a lot and looked quite good, seemed like he was instructed to cut in and be more of a 10 at times, and I thought he did that well enough. I thought Bravo was good too, made plenty of mistakes but always plays with heart and determination. So many times he received the ball and had no one to pass to, forcing him to do something that eventually gave the ball away. Miller played very well at CB, we need to be playing him over Mabiala there. Nathan provided a spark when he came on, as usual.
I don’t got much else. Just wanted to highlight some performances that I thought were decent given the context of the overall performance (basically the bar for decent is low)
I can’t wait for the Columbus game when Araujo will be available, as will Yimmi, Blanco, and Asprilla. And hopefully McGraw, depends how well Canada do in the gold cup I think. But I’m excited for Araujo
Blanco's washed. Depending on him for more than 10 min a game would be silly. I love the guy, but he just needs to ride off into the sunset and claim the accolades he deserves from an adoring fanbase, and not keep trying and keep hobbling around hoping for the best.
“When I look at other teams, they have more quality players. They pay more for players, and they bring more quality players. We need to, because competition is really hard. We have problems with injuries, and that’s why I think we need more quality players. If we are healthy, we have a good team. But this year, even one game we haven’t played with our best eleven. It’s always something that happens.”
Very blunt but I think that just sort of comes with being from Eastern Europe, they can be very blunt with their English
Roster construction on this team is all over the place. Niezgoda is probably done with this team at this point. Mora still not fully fit. Chara is a god, but his body is getting up there on mileage. Defense continues to give up too many goals.
I mean look at the other DPs in the league. Minnesota got Pukki. You tell me we are using duct tape and pulling guys off benches in Hungary. I think that the team needs additional/new investment to keep it in competition in this league. The spending when compared to other teams is just so far below what is needed.
Gio is a good coach, but it may be time for a change.
"Caleb is sitting on the sidelines and available."
Please no. Caleb was the right coach at the right time when he was here, but his Columbus tenure didn't go all that well. One MLS Cup...and two consecutive missed playoffs. and he's currently unemployed, as you note.
Nostalgia is not the way I'd like to rebuild the Timbers. Upgrade the payroll, upgrade the coach, get better at scouting talent so that the upgraded payroll is put to good use. The Timbers have a LOT of work to do in the next season or two.
The money spent is not lower than most others. We are in the top half. The issue is the coach. Gio has not got the best out of or helped develope the young talent we got on our team. Bravo and Moreno have gotten worse. Ayala can't stay healthy. Masquera will probably leave in the off-season. Among other issues. Like wasting dp spots on players that have never been dp level players. Or players over the hill.
Thing is, the Timbers have the resources, the talent, and the fanbase, they should be 1960's Elvis. But the soccer equivalent of Tom Parker runs the Timbers, so instead, they're fat, drug-addled 70's Vegas Elvis. It's a shame.
Respect for Boli. Dude puts in an honest shift.
He's a keeper at least...and there are several others. Next year will be rebuilding, hopefully with a new coach who's able to create a system that gets the best out of his players. There's a lot of raw talent on the roster, but no heart anymore. I love Gio as a person, but the rest of the league has improved and teams have figured out how to beat the Timbers, even at P Park. I have been a STH since long before MLS, but I am sad to say this might be the last season, unless there are some big improvements in management and performance.
The roster has some points in role players and players that should be depth like Asprilla. McGraw, Bravo, Mosquera, Moreno, and Ivacic to name a few. But the top down players aren’t good. Yimmi was never amazing but he’s injured all season basically, Blanco is not what he was, and Niezgoda has been bad for 2-3 years. That’s 3 max cap TAM or DP players not making a difference and you have one of them you can ditch for cap relief they refuse to use. Add to that Evander starting slow and adjusting to the league and playing with a mostly bad mls level attack and you get not even a handful of goals over 9 games. Even the players know we don’t have the talent. Gio aside, a fantastic manager would be lucky to make the playoffs with this shitty squad. You can’t have 3 top level max cap hit players just not contributing and rely on depth and one DP and be any good I. This league especially when you have no depth at CB.
No heart, or should I say no alpha dogs. They all seem to be milquetoast out there.
I'll like to ask the Gio apologists where the line in the sand is. Is it when we're completely healthy? When there is roster turnover - if, when, hopefully? - or is it when and most likely we miss playoffs? Or maybe get the wooden spoon?
Today on the Timbers subreddit - mentioned this on the game thread - that some folks kept sticking to the injury line. Then threr's the talent explanation. Gio has a say in the roster and he clearly didn't see a problem with not using trying to offload Mabs, Niezgoda, etc. during the offseason. He was also just fine trading away Tulioma to get money for Ayala, if I'm correct. He's not blameless with thr roster construction, alright? And we've had injuries practically every season. He could have said something about the training staff or just like asked wthat the hell was up.
Today's lineup was dire. And his subs were a cry for help. Yo, Gio: what's up with playing Loria and Mabs instead of starting Mosquera and then shifting Miller to cb and taking Mabs out at the half? There's also starting Boli and Niezgoda together - I have no idea what Goda does at training in order to still get pt but I suspect its partially injuries and he's better than what we've got - except for Boli.
That 2nd half was a meltdown just like the last 5 or so minutues of the first half. I'm not intersted in whatever Gio says postgame. Unless it is to say that he's resigning. If MP even still gives a damn about the team, he wil fire Gio NOW. Not wait untill th end of the seaso; we've missed playoffs again; and gotten the first pick in the draft. Hell, do we even have a first round pick next year?
At least the announcers didn't mention Antonion Conte. That's apparently just one suggestion for TFC's next ocach. Meanwhile, we'lll falling behind with a lower level coach whose managerial ability has been overmatched by a rapidly improving league.
I was first in line for the apologies and the injuries. I am done. The line is crossed. It happened when we stopped competing. That was the line for me. It was a couple games ago that it really started to wane. But today it never felt like we could win.
Gio is so over his head it’s not even funny. He seems like a great human, and I wish him well. I just never want to see him on the touch line again.
Nah, Ned took full responsibility for shipping Bill away.
https://www.heraldandnews.com/sports/portland-timbers-shift-focus-to-summer-transfer-window-after-pursuing-additional-defender/article_459ef176-e3a4-11ed-8aca-d70c2aed8987.html
Gio deserves plenty of criticism for the current form. But, roster construction? There was a large contingent of the fan base that was #PayValeri that was probably a good reason Jebo was shipped to make cap room. And medical staff with injuries is above Gio's pay grade.
I've said this before and I still feel it's true. This is either Gio's roster and he's responsible or he has very little say in the roster and therefore isn't a manager, but just a game-day sideline coach. Either way he needs to be replaced with a proper manager.
Ned "taking the blame" doesn't mean that Gio didn't agree to get rid of Tui and replace him with "thoughts and prayers"
Both Gio and Ned intended to replace Tuiloma. I don’t think they would’ve gotten rid of Bill if they didn’t think they could land a CB in the winter. We tried to get Araujo, but his club wasn’t willing to deal (man what a big help he would’ve been for this season though). The biggest mistake in my opinion that Gio has made in the whole center back thing is not playing Miller over Mabiala at CB when needed. I think he’s a perfectly adequate player to step in and fill in, and if he had there’s a decent chance we’d have a few more points right now
Not to put a wet blanket on the new signing, but I noticed Araujo isn't particularly big (5-11 and 161 pounds - Paredes' size!), so I hope he can deal with this league.
He also can play right back. I wonder if he will get the Miller treatment and not play CB - LOL.
Tuiloma is only 5’ 10” and 174 lbs, and that didn’t seem to matter. I think he’ll be fine
You know who else isn't very big? Diego Chara. He deals with the league fine, and I think Araujo will as well.
Chara? He is big. Gotta big heart. He's got thighs the size of Western Cedar tree trunks. He's not tall, and thus, he doesn't play on the back line, where he isn't required to head the ball clear. That said, I hope you're right about Araujo.
For every person here complaining about Gio or saying he needs to go.
This roster sucks, and that’s not to say Gio is great or anything but who the hell do you this piss poor ownership group is going to get to make it better? They couldn’t even replace Grabavoys position for like 6 months and took forever to give him the GM job. You have 3 TAM/DP players that for various reasons aren’t playing or aren’t performing yet they refuse to amnesty one and get a better 9 or attacking piece. Just a completely unambitious organization from the top down. Yes GW left the roster in a bad state. So you think they’re going to come in here and hire a guy who is literally going to do better while knowing the organization is a complete shit show from the top down. When I see these results I don’t immediately think Gio out (although that may need to happen too) but I think Merrit should sell the team and let a group who can handle business step in. Until then you’re likely not getting a better coach, but even if you did, you might barely squeak into the playoffs with this squad.
There’s a reason Zuparic said that other teams bring in better players and we don’t have the talent. He’s right and the club has made bad decisions for years when it comes to roster moves. Fernandez, was a big chance and it blew up on them. Signing Yimmi was deeply unambitious. Niezgoda was a big risk. Mabiala being on a longer contract. Trading Ebobisse. Selling Bill without being in someone else. I’ve been saying it all season but this isn’t a good team with functionally one DP and missing some TAM players that are or could be serious contributors. The FO and organization messed up and if you ask that same organization to bring in a new coach just good luck on them being any good. I know if I was a fantastic coach they’d want the organization would be very low on my list of clubs to work for.
One of the things I look at when I watch this team play is that it seems devoid of any difference makers, at least on the offensive side. Maybe Evander will get there (I think he can), but when I saw him running the counter and watch him basically dribble the ball into the CB instead of passing it to one of the other 4-5 open players, it's just frustrating. If it had been Blanco or Valeri in 2017-21, that would have been a goal. Both Valeri and Blanco could put the team on their backs and get us the needed goal.
Also, who's the one the pitch leader on this team? Diego is a great lead by example guy and always has. But where is the Ridgy organizing the set pieces and telling which guy is marking which. Who is the steady presence guy like Jewsbury that can pull a guy aside and talk to them when needed?
I think Zup was 100% correct in his assessment and glad he called the organization out. I'm hoping when the dead weight comes off the books next year, we see this team get more ambitious. But maybe MP is content with just having the Thorns be good.
MP isn’t going to own the thorns so hopefully he’s either ready to pony up the cash or sell. The organization has suffered under really poor leadership though.
These are fair points. Gio made two finals with middle tier (at best) squads. That’s impressive. Ever since Fernandez flamed out I really wanted to see him with Evander level talent.
He has it now and nothing is happening. The lineup has been inconsistent with injuries and availabilities, but when we have Evander, Moreno, and Boli starting most of a run of 7 games in which we score three goals, I’m pointing my finger at Gio. He has no creativity. I think his usefulness is expired.
However, for games like last night we can also look at the complete failure of roster construction. I don’t know what goes to Ned there because, as you said, the executives above him have been as effective as Niezgoda in staffing the GM and its office.
One DP who’s still adjusting to the league is the talent needed? I feel like the jury is still out on Evander but trade our attack with any top teams (LAFC, SEA[gross], STL, CIN) and they’re immediately borderline playoff teams. He does t have talent. No good team has one good DP and 4 players on max cap hit TAM/DP(Niezgoda, Blanco, Mabiala, Chara) who just aren’t good or can’t produce. So they bring in a CB late who hopefully will help, and maybe a young winger (2024 move) and Boli as a 9 who isn’t a starting quality MLS striker. I hope he sticks around and as a backup but he’s not a starter on a good mls side.
Gio may not be the guy long term but a bad attacking roster is going to produce bad attacking results pretty much regardless of manager. If the team was serious they’d drop Niezgoda or one of the other DP players and bring in a string starting quality 9 on the way to a bigger rebuild in 2024. I just think a bad roster is not going to magically make a good team with a good manager. I would have hoped for better even with this squad but we all should have known it was bad because it was bad last year and all they did was add a playmaker despite chance creation not being their biggest issue.
You can't just "drop" a player though. You have to buy them out, and while that gets a team cap relief, it still costs them the player's salary. Niezgoda's contract expires at the end of the season; there's literally no reason to drop him now, because the new #9 you (and we) want would cost money on top of that money, so you're essentially paying twice for one roster spot.
All the non-Evander DP's are out of contract at the end of the season. It would be hard to find a reason to buy Niezgoda out now, because among other reasons, they're not one #9 away from being a Cup contender, and there isn't just a vending machine with a stock of elite #9's waiting for the Timbers to put their coins into. It would be a pretty big waste of money to drop a DP now and panic-buy someone else when this season is basically shot anyway.
I would expect the Timbers to do a lot of work this winter when they have several million in cap space clearing up (Niezgoda, Blanco, Y Chara represent almost $1.5M in cap space alone, depending on how much TAM Y Chara was bought down by), and Mabiala and Asprilla are almost another million.
Some of these guys will obviously re-sign, but this is all the contracts the Timbers have that are expiring at the end of the season:
https://www.capology.com/club/portland-timbers/salaries/2023/
And while it isn't dollar for dollar obviously, that list represents a LOT of cap space to play with for next season.
So yeah, Ned has a big job to do this winter, but he'll also have the financial flexibility to do it.
I believe a front four with Evander, a ~developed (if inconsistent) Moreno, and an IN-FORM Boli (who I’ll agree would be great depth in a perfect world) is not a bad attacking roster at all. Especially if JDM is in.
The biggest problem for Gio with me is playing back foot, counter soccer for all but 10 minutes of every third game. I haven’t checked this week but until recently at least we were dead last in possession. It can win. I’m very tired of it. Again our front four, in my opinion, is capable of much, much more.
It won’t be blue skies if Gio is fired in season. In my opinion he has overachieved with weak and hamstrung rosters. These days it doesn’t feel like he’s coaching to talent. Outside of a stretch here and there it still feels like he’s just trying to recapture the precise counters of the peak Blanco era to mostly bad results, and almost entirely ugly results.
I say can him at the end of the year.
The front four isn't good. Evander might end up being really good. Moreno could also be very good. Both had injuries at the beginning of the season and Evander is new to the league. Boli is a guy who was playing top flight Hungarian league which is a step down from MLS and had 28 goals in 84 appearances. He's got some of the right attributes for the league in terms of his athleticism and he works, but he's just not a starting level 9 in MLS. Then you have a rotating cast filling in the "other spot" in Asprilla who I like, but has always been a bit up and down, or maybe Yimmi is healthy once in a blue moon and he's ok.
Good MLS teams have at least 2 good DPs, a couple TAM veterans who are good, and some young U22 or Homegrown talent that are good that haven't quite earned a big check yet. The timbers have a few good players, but they're a miss on several TAM/DP players and basically a couple injuries has rendered the attack useless.
I would like to see the team play a different style, but I don't also see them being built around possession soccer. If so you'd need an 8 who can really control tempo and wingers who can drop back and create overloads with fullbacks and CMs. It' snot really impossible, but I think most teams would be happy to cede some possession to Portland and let them try to break down an organized defense. I still think the bigger issues is talent and leadership by star players. I think this team would be way better with a solid DP 9, and a better DP winger than Chara.
Boli, who has 4 goals in the past 7 games in a bad offense as you say and is in the 84th percentile for non penalty goals in MLS despite being completely new to the league, isn’t MLS starting caliber? He might not be elite but he’s definitely starting caliber. He only has one less goal than Jebo despite playing literally half as many minutes. He’s got one more goal than Cucho in much less time. The guy is good. He’s not starting caliber for a championship winning side, but he’s absolutely starting caliber for MLS in general. We’re lucky to have him, him and Evander are carrying the offense
That’s fair but I still would like to see how he looks after 2000 minutes. Niezgoda also scored quite a bit early on. The one thing I will say about Boli is he has a high work rate and tries hard to check up when needed and makes runs when needed. His touch and movement sometimes still don’t seem “elite”. I’d still rather see a DP9 up top.
Of all the problems the Timbers roster has right now, Franck Boli is absolutely not one of them. He's outproducing every single Timber DP right now for a fraction of the cost.
"Good MLS teams have at least 2 good DPs, a couple TAM veterans who are good, and some young U22 or Homegrown talent that are good that haven't quite earned a big check yet"
The Timbers have one good DP, a decent amount of young talent, and some half-decent TAM guys. They're not that far off from being a lot better, but those DP contracts are destroying the ability to improve the team until this winter.
Yes, the roster does suck. A new coach won't magically make this team good. But I have to believe that a new coach might at least, as I've said before, turn some of these 4-1 losses into 2-1 losses or 2-2 draws, and at the very least produce some entertaining soccer. Gio has lost the ability to even do that.
"You have 3 TAM/DP players that for various reasons aren’t playing or aren’t performing yet they refuse to amnesty one"
Those three players are all out of contract at the end of this season. There's no way the Timbers are going to amnesty a player who will be gone in three months anyway; that's a huge waste of money for a move that won't do a whole lot to move the needle this season.
"They couldn’t even replace Grabavoys position for like 6 months and took forever to give him the GM job."
Just more anecdotal evidence for me that MP is checked out, and doesn't give a shit about his toy any more. He'll never sell because his ego likes being a sports team owner, but he seems to have decided that things are just gonna do what they do, and so be it. I believe this rot is intentional, and it's infuriating.
I agree with all points. A new coach maybe gets a bit better results but without better talent you’re just slowing down the sinking ship. Plus what actually good or better manager would step into this shit show right now? Hey I’d love to step into a job where I’m expected to get results with basically 1 DP and basically the rest of the attack as role players with some key players injured? So sure, I get that the team doesn’t want to amnesty a player who will be off the books next year anyway but if they wanted to me competitive they’d spend the money. I would also say if you’re throwing away 2023 why not give the coach a chance with a good roster if that’s the plan. The last two years the roster hasn’t been good enough. The years before that Gio got good results albeit I haven’t always liked his managing decisions and have questioned if he’s the answer. I guess that remains to be seen but I just think no manager is making this team good with its current roster.
Last sentence times one thousand.
Gio, what the hell.
You go all conservative with a 4-4-2. You put two "wingers" out there (Loria and Moreno) who don't provide much service and put an extra burden on Caliskan and a 36-year-old midfielder to hold down the midfield. What are you thinking Gio? Go for the draw?
Why not go with your usual 4-2-3-1 and put Moreno at the 10 and put Boli at a wing and Niezgoda at the point and for gods sake, no more Loria. (I would have gone with Fogaca).
What are you thinking Gio? I thought we already knew that Mabiala was done, and yet you start him. His giveaway led to the first goal. I'm not sure what involvement he had on the second because my apple tv feed was all screwed up, but all I know is that goals happen when he plays.
Bad job Ivavcic on the fourth goal - come out for goodness sakes.
The first half was the worst soccer I've seen in a long time. No possession - just boot it up. Wow. I hadn't seen that style since 2012. We are horrible. We couldn't win any second balls. It was just ugly. Nothing to write home about.
I said last week that Gio needed to chase the games because of the hole they were in, and he waits until he's down 2-0 and the 6oth minute to chase the game. Gio??? What the hell?
Put a fork in it.
Boli on the wing? Wut?
Gio Gotta Go.
In this league, with the low bar for playoffs, you are never out until well after match day 25, sometimes as late as 34. But making the playoffs with this dumpster fire would be a pyrrhic victory (ba dum dum), unearned and probably convince management we were on the right track. Every team in the league deals with injuries, suspensions, national team call ups, but for us we think this is the reason for the really bad performances. It isn’t, it is coaching and roster construction. Could the roster be better? Sure, but even then I wouldn’t trust it to perform at maximum capacity.
Boli is the only guy on this team who looks the part. Good on him. Zuparic I’ll give credit to as he is consistent. I love Diego Chara, but he has shown his age this year and playing aside a rookie is not going to get it done. Bravo, Mosquera and Moreno should be much better, but constantly having to cover for weak spots diminishes their effectiveness and potential.
About half of this roster needs to be turned over. We have been passed by, lapped by the league and it is like we don’t see it. New ideas are needed on the sidelines too. It is just depressing to watch green and gold be so poor just about every week and then lie to myself that “maybe next week it will be better”.
"We have been passed by, lapped by the league and it is like we don’t see it."
Or, worse, MP sees it and does not give a shit. Which means we're stuck where we are.
I've said it before and I stick with it - this was always gonna be a rough season. This off season is going to be absolutely crucial for the Timbers, the roster can be significantly upgraded with some big money coming off the books. The question is will MP sign off on that level of rebuild, or is he just gonna still play the petulant baby and run his toy into the ground?
i blame the timbers army!
What did we do? Cheer too loud? I personally go to all the games I can manage, sing myself hoarse, contribute to the 107ist, and even go round back to meet the players, bump fists and offer them words of encouragement in person. Not sure what else to do here...
Don't. You should blame MP for being a petulant baby who is so thin skinned he doesn't know how to handle criticism or tricky situations.
I see no prestige in being the team owner of a on-field wreck that will go into worse financial shape from diminishing attendance and fewer STH's in 2024. Stating that MP is content with running the team into the ground is a crazy concept, especially considering the ownership ego issue and wealth loss as an outcome.
The long-term problem for MP is that he knows squat about the technical side of soccer and up until recently had GW to obscure that fact. His new GM, Grabavoy, trained by flying around looking for cheap buys from second tier teams in S.America. Can he master the GM job and turn the organization around? Who knows? We don't even know how much of the current player mess is based on Grabavoy past rec's to management.
Our GM is probably hobbled by the fear that a replacement for Gio is a huge deal with very high risk. And his boss is hunkered down and wants no public visibility. So, he's new and it's all on his shoulders...
I guess I didn't mean "running the team into the ground" literally. I guess a more accurate way to describe it is "he'll still own the team but he won't ever significantly improve it".
He'll keep the Timbers ticking over at this level forever, because his initial $35M investment is currently, if Forbes is to be believed, worth over $650M, and with interest in MLS only growing in the next few years, that number will also grow. So MP's not going to try to destroy it; he's just going to put in the bare minimum amount of investment and sweat equity so that when he does cash out, it will be for even more than that.
I actually think Ned can do a good job, but I also think MP doesn't give him the resources - time, additional scouting depth, analytics, whatever - to be as successful as we all want him and the Timbers to be. MP's not interested, seemingly, in improving what he's got in a substantive way, and that's the most frustrating part of all of this to me.
Sincere question — what evidence do you have to support your view that Ned can do a good job? He seems like a great guy. But also a guy that was hired with zero, nil, nada, zilch experience in that role. Kind of a classic FO move — hire some random player or person because we know him.
I want him to succeed. But I’d rather PTFC had someone in that role with a proven record of succeeding. This club can’t afford to be Ned’s learning curve.
The moves he's made so far have been pretty good given the financial constraints he has. Boli has been a surprise, Miller is the kind of unspectacular-yet-solid guy that every MLS roster needs one of and that the Timbers haven't had since Zarek, and while I don't know how much hand he had in Evander (big deals take a long time and that may have been GW's baby to start with), he got that one done too.
So far, his only glaringly huge mistake was selling off Tuiloma, but he kinda had to do that because of the salary cap mess he inherited, thanks to GW's win-now approach, which GW paired with not being very good at identifying player who would do that. And his idea of giving raises to players who maybe didn't deserve them.
Who knows? Maybe Ned will suck when the team is fully under his control. But he's made decent moves given his limitations so far, and I'm just naive enough to hope that with more cap room/freedom, he'll keep doing the same.
Ned was reported to be one of the best #2s in the league. In recent years, people in #2 positions (assistant to the GM or coach) have done very well when given the chance. Cincinnati took Chris Albright and Pat Noonan from Philly (their assistant GM and assistant coach respectively) and put them in charge, and they turned the worst team in league history to potentially the best team in league history. Neither of them had any previous experience beyond being assistants. Miami took Chris Henderson, assistant GM in Seattle, and put him in charge, and he’s done good work. Miami are still shackled by mistakes from the previous group in charge and are terrible, but Henderson has done an insane amount of work to change things up there, and several key injuries are killing them. Atlanta took Gonzalo Pineda from Seattle (assistant coach) and he’s doing okay.
Ned isn’t the flashiest hire but it’s not like you just pick up someone who has tons of experience being a GM in MLS. They aren’t very common, and most of them have jobs. Many teams have GMs that had no prior experience. Hell, John Thorrington, GM of LAFC, had just retired from playing when he was appointed, and he went on and casually helped build one of the best constructed rosters ever. He had zero experience. A proven track record is great, but it’s not necessary
All the evidence we have is Tom Bogert saying Ned was one of the best and most respected assistant GM’s in the league, and for now that will have to do. Now that we’ve hired Jack Dodd who has lots of experience in Toronto to assist Ned, let’s see how they do
A gm is resposnible for negotiations with players and clubs over players. Meaning, contracts and transfers costs. The real issue with player scouting is the head scout. That person is responsible for finding the hidden gem and seeing the talent that hasn't fully shown itself.
Appreciate you responding. I hear what you're saying about the potential capital gains for owners in MLS, and maybe MP sees the increases in team value greatly exceeding inflation for a while yet. So- you and I better hope that MP sees valuations plateauing soon. Or we'll live with a Mike Ashley/Newcastle Utd type situation for years to come.
Thinking it through, should we hope that, operationally, the club craters badly - thereby eating into that huge valuation - causing MP to sell? There'll be new-buyer hesitation if the team's an on-pitch disaster and has low gameday revenue. The second wave of owners in MLS won't get those easy cap gains and will want it to be a viable business. And who will they be? Are we like the fans of most Premier League teams - we don't care how sketchy the next owners are as long as they're floating in cash?
I hope your gut feeling about Ned is accurate.
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. I'm in Minnesota to visit family this week, so I got tickets for my wife and me to see the match. What I saw horrified me. It was every bit as bad as the past two matches against Chicago and NYCFC. Lack of coherency, lack of effort, and PTFC looked shellshocked, as if they were completely unprepared for what hit them.
I understand injuries, suspensions, short turn-arounds, etc. Yes, that does place stresses on the coaching staff and players. That said, I don't know that I've seen a side less prepared and less aggressive. The last 50 minutes were embarrassing.
This is largely the same side that went to MLS Cup Final in 2021. Now it's barely a shadow of that squad. I think it's time to look at a new voice on the sideline to shake things up.
I hear Bob Bradley's out of a job....
"This is largely the same side that went to MLS Cup Final in 2021"
What people seem to forget about that 2021 squad - and I'm not accusing you of doing this, I'm just making the point - is that they weren't all that good. They only had four wins by July 1 (same as this season), and all of 7 by the end of August. They got hot at exactly the right time, nearly ran the table down the stretch (winning 10 of their last 13), and a few upsets elsewhere in the playoffs got the higher seeds out of the way and kinda greased the skids for them to make the final. But 2021 was not exactly Gio's best work, and it's only gotten worse from there.
"I hear Bob Bradley's out of a job"
I'm down. He's a good coach who likes a project, and that is exactly what the Timbers are right now. But, and I'm only half-kidding when I say this, literally any sentient human would probably get a better performance out of this team than Gio at this point.
Bradley ain't it. He has failed with two of the largest squad payrolls in the league. He is a "old school" coach with no ability to adapt. No thanks. The only established coaches I would want is Jesse marsch or Viera. Which I think both are beyond coaching in mls again.
If it were me and I was the owner. I would be going to BVB, RB Leipzig, Ajax, Barcelona and looking down the line for a coach from their academy teams. Find a coach that has been trained to develop young players, play a modern style, and have a good understanding of building and maintaining a "brand." Find a coach that has a history with these teams. One that has been in the system for awhile and has learned everything they need to. Those clubs are so large that they have a lot of coaches who are never given a chance to the top because of the many people ahead of them. You could find a guy or girl that has been in the "system" for awhile but is waiting for their chance in line. Go and find those hidden gems. find out who has the experience but is tired of waiting. Someone who is tired of being a supporting coach and wants a chance to be THE coach. Now they have the training regiments. They know what it takes to develop top players and being a culture of winning. Being an elite club. They would bring that elite mentality and winning ways to our club and implement it into our brand. Bvb and Ajax are my preferred teams to dig into. They have a history of developing world class players and having great communication and relationships with the fans. They are always competitive and always looking to adapt to new styles.
I would love Vieira but he's pretty entrenched at CP now I think. I've always been on board with Marsch too. But I also in a way would love a young coach like you're describing. I'm just unsure how many of them would come to MLS, but I'd love to find out if at least one would.
Viera is without a job right now. He was linked with leeds and the usmnt but no other rumors of being linked with anyone else. Neither leeds or usmnt chose him.
I think marsch will stay in Europe. Probably somewhere in Germany.
As for getting a coach from the bvb and Ajax coaching buffet that they have. Anyone would come for the right price and opportunity. If you are an assistant coach in and academy team, you aren't making a lot of money. You could even look at some of the supporting staff members on the bench. Maybe even the guy under the assistant coach. These are coaching staffs that have been together for a long time. The experience that they have down the bench is huge. Go and interview these coaches. see if their style, system and understanding of the game align with yours.
I'm pretty sure that an assistant or 2nd assistant on the bvb academy team, that has been a 2nd assistant for years, would love to have the opportunity to be a head coach. A head coach in one of the largest markets in the world. Substantially increasing your exposure over being a supporting role coach on an academy team. While also substantially increasing your wage. We not only need a coach but we need someone who creates a foundation for who we are as a club. To build a "brand" and give it a clear identity. That in itself could also be a big negotiation piece. They can build culture and brand in their image. Based on its success would lead to bigger opportunities. It's not a hard sell.
Viera signed with Strasbourg yesterday, fwiw
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I'd rather have Gio with a concussion that Bob crybaby Bradley anywhere near Portland.
I didn't watch this one since I refuse to pay for that crap service MLS and Apple are putting out. Over the last 2 years it seems that PTFC, and to an extent MLS, has worked really hard to get people to stop being fans. From 2011-2022 I could count the number of games I missed on two hands. If I wasn't in the stadium (usually 4-6 games a season) I watched every game, whether live or on replay when I was busy. This season I've missed a bunch of games. I watch the games when they're on Apple TV free or the few that were broadcast, I did watch one game on a sketchy stream. I have refused to attend in-stadium games because I don't want to financially support an abuser.
The antics of the FO over the last few years, the dismissal of any wrongdoing by MP (essentially blaming the sexual misconduct on the team being made up of women, agreeing to sell only the Thorns), the new CEO being invisible and changing nothing, the lack signing any defensive players in the off season, the absolute garbage coaching from Gio, the constant list of injured players (why is everyone getting hurt?), the on-field displays of unwatchable soccer. It all adds up to turn someone who was a die-hard fan into a casual "if it's on and I have nothing better to do I'll watch it, otherwise I'll catch the lowlights later" fan.
MLS hiding it's entire market behind a paywall in the years before major marketing of the game in this country is a gamble for sure. They probably think that the hype from the world cup will increase viewership, but I feel that the market is there for the taking, and whoever sets up a good TV deal will gain the most fans, be it Premier league, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc. casuals will stick to what's accessible and become less casual. Anyway I've strayed way off topic.
Tomorrow's game in Colorado is behind the paywall and during my July 4th BBQ, so I'll catch the lowlight here again. Then it's a bit of a break to get healthy, or injure some more players in training, and another paywall game vs Crew maybe I'll find a stream, maybe I'll read a book. The San Jose and Tigres games are both on FS1 so I'll catch them.
I understand the performance based complaints but why are you complaining about a pay wall? All leagues are behind a pay wall. Bundasliga is ESPN. Epl is peacock. Champions league is Paramount+. I have all of them because I watch a lot of soccer. But if you only watch mls than why should paying to watch the team matter? Unless you just don't have the money to spend on it. Which happens to a lot of people but you don't need to mad about paying for a subscription, which I'm sure you do with a lot of other things, I'm sure.
For me it's not about paying for "a" subscription. It's about paying for "another" subscription.
As you mention, all leagues are behind a paywall, and the PL is technically behind three - Peacock for the league, Paramount+ for PL teams in the Champions League, ESPN+ for FA Cup. It's getting tiresome - and not cheap - to pay for yet another streaming service; I'm a STH so I get MLS on Apple free this year, but when they stop giving it to us free I will probably have to drop another streaming service if I want to pay for MLS on Apple.
You are kinda proving my point.
"For me it's not about paying for "a" subscription. It's about paying for "another" subscription."
That's like saying
"I'm upset. I want these new shoes but I already bought these other new shoes. Yet another pair of shoes I have to pay for."
Like..............wut?
To extend your metaphor, my closet can physically hold only so many shoes. If some new shoes come in, I have to choose whether to stack them in the corner of the room or get rid of some to get more space in my closet.
Or, in real world terms: money is finite. $14.99 monthly subscriptions are fine; if I need six subscriptions to six separate services to watch all the soccer I'd like to watch, though, all of a sudden I'm paying $90 a month. Many people, including myself, can't or won't do that.
That move to Apple has completely cut me off from MLS, after years of watching games. You can't even watch in a bar unless they have Apple TV. Bad move.
PTFC score three goals and lose 4-1.
#GioOut
Colorado is probably already counting on three points. Hopefully they’ll be overconfident. I mean why not? Timbers can’t beat anyone. At least the Timbers won’t be overconfident!
That was the third team in a row to turn their own woes around on the Timbers. Colorado has already ordered the champaign
I hate talking about the team when they don’t play well. Shit sucks. Chara getting an own goal stings, no one deserves it less than him. Starting Mabiala instead of Mosquera (and sliding Miller to CB) was the wrong call. Niezgoda sometimes looked decent but you just never ever get the sense that he’s going to score or assist.
I thought Caliskan played well, especially for a guy making his first start in that game. Needed to keep his shots down but that’s ok. Made some good tackles. Loria was also decent. Boli was good as usual. Moreno was cutting inside a lot and looked quite good, seemed like he was instructed to cut in and be more of a 10 at times, and I thought he did that well enough. I thought Bravo was good too, made plenty of mistakes but always plays with heart and determination. So many times he received the ball and had no one to pass to, forcing him to do something that eventually gave the ball away. Miller played very well at CB, we need to be playing him over Mabiala there. Nathan provided a spark when he came on, as usual.
I don’t got much else. Just wanted to highlight some performances that I thought were decent given the context of the overall performance (basically the bar for decent is low)
I can’t wait for the Columbus game when Araujo will be available, as will Yimmi, Blanco, and Asprilla. And hopefully McGraw, depends how well Canada do in the gold cup I think. But I’m excited for Araujo
I think Blanco is a mirage.
Blanco's washed. Depending on him for more than 10 min a game would be silly. I love the guy, but he just needs to ride off into the sunset and claim the accolades he deserves from an adoring fanbase, and not keep trying and keep hobbling around hoping for the best.
What did zuparic say about the team?
“When I look at other teams, they have more quality players. They pay more for players, and they bring more quality players. We need to, because competition is really hard. We have problems with injuries, and that’s why I think we need more quality players. If we are healthy, we have a good team. But this year, even one game we haven’t played with our best eleven. It’s always something that happens.”
Very blunt but I think that just sort of comes with being from Eastern Europe, they can be very blunt with their English
I'm glad he said it.
They need to buy more expensive players to compete
He does know there is a salary cap right?
Roster construction on this team is all over the place. Niezgoda is probably done with this team at this point. Mora still not fully fit. Chara is a god, but his body is getting up there on mileage. Defense continues to give up too many goals.
I mean look at the other DPs in the league. Minnesota got Pukki. You tell me we are using duct tape and pulling guys off benches in Hungary. I think that the team needs additional/new investment to keep it in competition in this league. The spending when compared to other teams is just so far below what is needed.
Gio is a good coach, but it may be time for a change.
Caleb is sitting on the sidelines and available.
"Caleb is sitting on the sidelines and available."
Please no. Caleb was the right coach at the right time when he was here, but his Columbus tenure didn't go all that well. One MLS Cup...and two consecutive missed playoffs. and he's currently unemployed, as you note.
Nostalgia is not the way I'd like to rebuild the Timbers. Upgrade the payroll, upgrade the coach, get better at scouting talent so that the upgraded payroll is put to good use. The Timbers have a LOT of work to do in the next season or two.
The money spent is not lower than most others. We are in the top half. The issue is the coach. Gio has not got the best out of or helped develope the young talent we got on our team. Bravo and Moreno have gotten worse. Ayala can't stay healthy. Masquera will probably leave in the off-season. Among other issues. Like wasting dp spots on players that have never been dp level players. Or players over the hill.
They were a top half team a few seasons ago, but they're 17th now:
https://www.capology.com/us/mls/payrolls/
And a lot of that money is being spent incredibly inefficiently.
Thing is, the Timbers have the resources, the talent, and the fanbase, they should be 1960's Elvis. But the soccer equivalent of Tom Parker runs the Timbers, so instead, they're fat, drug-addled 70's Vegas Elvis. It's a shame.
Hey now — you say “fat and drug-addled” like it’s a bad thing 🤷♂️