"A group of investors calling themselves For Denver FC has launched a public campaign to bring a pro women's team to Denver. #NWSL or USL Super League is possible. Colorado native Jordan Angeli has a leading role in organizing the effort. Tom Dunmore, Ben Hubbard also involved."
I've always been worried about a Denver NWSL club purely for selfish reasons because I think it could have the potential to pull Sophia back to CO.
Yeah, see the story posted below. Horan has already made a public statement for their twitter. I imagine she could go back there for her retirement days. No word on if it's a USL or NWSL team though...if it's a USL team, then we won't see any of those players going there. They're going for either, though. My guess? They'll be the other team to be added with Boston in 2025/6. It looks like they've already figured out their branding and colors...the same color green as the Thorns practice kits, hot pink, and white with mountains/trees/wildflowers graphics. Don't hate the branding so far....
Oh, they're already putting it out there to trade for Smith or Pugh?! We'd need the first draft pick for the next five years and a whole lot of allocation $$$, thanks. Or, maybe, just GTFO. Pretty bold of them lol. Could definitely see Horan coming back to play out her retirements years there.
Would love some damn media to focus on the THREE teams for sale right now rather than more news about what's happening in Boston (new stadium plans- yay!), or Denver, or whichever NWSL franchise is coming next...
Agreed. It's time take an actual break OR shift the scheduling to conform with the rest of the world. There have been a few entertaining matches, but I wouldn't call them good. Far more often, however, the matches have been pretty grim.
CBS/Attacking Third put together a nearly 15-minute "extended highlights" package of this match.
Nearly 15 minutes? From *this* match?
I can only surmise that they didn't want to have to rewatch it in order to edit down to actual highlights, so they just took the halftime intermission and uploaded that.
Just finished screening this one, and over thirty years of being a fan of this game, and ten as a fan of this club…that second half was one of the most deadly dull, hopelessly random forty-five minutes of my life and that includes pulling fire guard in an empty barracks.
Chasing the game, the Thorns had no urgency or shape. No organization, no plan, nothing. They looked completely baffled.
Part of that is that Norris is playing a Smith-centric attack only without Smith. I lost count of the times Vasconcelos and D’Aquila would take off on straight-ahead runs and Moultrie or Coffey would try and thread a pass thru to them.
But without Smith-grade pace and guile the forwards couldn’t break the backline and either the pass would get picked off or the forwards would be smothered.
It’s a perfect shitstorm; Norris’ “tactics” rely on hero-ball (which Betfort provided for the only goal and Kling didn’t on her point blank blast…) which means when you don’t have heroes, we’re kinda screwed.
And here’s the thing; even WITH heroes, if the opponent has bigger heroes, or your heroes have an off day, you lose.
Luckily nobody else looks reliable this season. But I can easily see this club having a jour sans in the semi or Final and crashing out. And I don’t see that Norris is going to develop massive tactical nous between then and now.
Some interesting commentary from Rhian (yes, THAT Rhian) about how Team Canada/Bev has decided to make this WC team built around Sinclair (very interested to see how that goes), and also some of her own coaching philosophy. It's a short clip, but I thought a worthwhile share nonetheless...
Yes that was very interesting. I am not sure that strategy will last after the group stage and Rhian seems to back it and would not be shocked if Priestman decides to change.
I was so happy that Rhian sat Sinc for the semifinal last year, she brought her in the waning minutes just to make sure that Korniak didn't get a head on a Sheridan Hail Mary into the box. Sure enough Sinc headed that sucker 3/4 of the way up the field.
I think Canadians are so used to Sinclair being the most important and skilled player, it is just hard for them not to depend on her. And she is dependable, but just not as mobile anymore.
Yeah, very not surprised Rhian backs that strategy based on how she coached here. If I remember correctly, Canada has a pretty tough group stage...and there is a universe that exists where they don't make it out!
Nigeria, Australia and Ireland, none of those easy. Well I suppose Nigeria is a long-shot, but thats mostly ignorance on my part, I only recognize Iffy and Frannie Ordega as NWSl players. But Australia will be tough and Ireland.
Ireland played the US tough twice in April. Canada has a great goalie, great defense, a good midfield and in my opinion a talented but inconsistent attack. In reality Canada is Fleming's team now and she will have to be the hero.
"Portland only has to make it through two more games in this window (both Challenge Cup matches) before we can welcome back those players."
It could be three regular season matches before all return, depending on whether US wins out. Last time they went on some sort of "victory tour" before reporting back to their NWSL squads, and that Sept 2 match may not see Soph and Crystal on the pitch.
I do realize a victory tour requires a victory and they could even make the 8-27 match, depending. Yesterday's first half was a hot mess--looking at you Sanchez and Thompson. (Skipped the second to watch sparkling Thorns soccer instead.)
I'm not booking a seat for a victory tour this time. Too many crucial injuries and lots of young players. This generation will be great by the next cup. Happy to be wrong though.
I'm unsure how deep they'll go...lots of other teams with major injury absences, too (or "our federation are a bunch of dickheads" absences). It's really hard to say.
WWC after this one, though? Back to US v Japan...I'm callin' it now!
Australia playing at home is my dark horse favorite. I thought they were pretty strong at the last cup until they changed coaches three months before the cup.
They also just recently beat England 2-0! The stats heavily favored England in that game, but they still got it done. I watched a little documentary series (I think on Disney+?) about the Matildas, and it's hard not to root for them.
This WC feels more unpredictable than any I can remember. It seems like any one of England, Germany, USA, Spain, Sweden, or France could win it, and I have a hard time picking among these teams. I'm putting Japan, Australia, Canada, and Brazil in Tier 2 here - they have a remote chance but they'd need an extraordinary amount of luck.
The early NWSL was heavily supplemented by players from both Europe and Australia. The Aussies jumped ship en masse and most Europeans have too. From players like Amandine Henry, AMC, Catley, Carpenter, Raso, Nadim, Brynyarsdittir, and Boquette plus others supplemented the Thorns' American and Canadian players. Now, the Thorns only European player is Kuikka. Sugita, of course, is from Japan but everyone else is either a North, Central or South American. It's not so much the Americans going to Europe, it's the Europeans not coming at all that has damaged the overall talent level in the league. It's no secret that European talent development is miles ahead of Central and South America and probably Canada as well.
Interesting. I looked at the info available via Wikipedia, and it shows active NWSL players from 27 countries outside the US, including Canada and Mexico.
So here's a hypothetical that occurred to me yesterday: Suppose that for whatever reason Sinclair had decided to pass on the World Cup and stayed and played with the Thorns this summer. Would the Thorns still be flailing or would the addition of a veteran who will actually take shots and put them on frame despite no longer being in her prime have made this team kinda competitive during the break? Obviously I don't think it would automatically make us the team to beat but it seems to me that she's good for a goal every couple of games, which at the very least gets us one tie in the last three. Or is she just too far over the hill to make a difference without the rest of the nats doing their thing?
Well yeah, of course! The hypothetical is that *hypothetically* she had magically been available for selection during the past three matches and for the matches that are upcoming between now and when the rest of the starters get back from the World Cup. Would she be a net positive or would she not really bring enough to elevate the rest of the current team above "train wreck" status?
Sinclair would be a net positive in my opinion. She would be displacing a combination of Porter, D'Aquila, Vasconcelos and Betfort and is a much better player than any of those four. Even being slower than any of those players her soccer IQ would allow her to be very effective. Would we win those three games? I'm not sure but she would have helped the team play much better, and since those games were all tight I can see us winning or getting a draw in each of them.
My only complaint about Sinclair is that when the team is at full strength she impacts playing time for Moultre, Rodriguez and Dunn, and she simply isn't better than those three.
That's sort of where I landed. I think she could also take some pressure off Moultrie, which would make her more effective or allow Norris to try something else with her. Alternatively, just parking her in the box would probably give us more bite than we currently have.
Her pace has fallen off to the point where when we play a team with any sort of ability it's basically playing 10.5 v 11. If we'd play her as a true poacher (which we don't really have the providers for and, besides, we have Smith...) she could use that "pops up to score every third game or so" thing to good use. But that'd be a different team.
I won't say she's "useless". But I don't see her with the ability to force herself into the match enough to change the game state the way she could ten years ago...
I agree. I think her biggest contribution would be as a coach on the field because it seems we're lacking a coach on the sideline. Organization, slowing the game down, playing more of a controlled passing game would be the benefit. The negative would be the pace to join the play either on offense or defense. I think she might have to play striker with Moultrie at the 10, though, to maximize the abilities of those two players while minimizing their deficiencies.
Sinc has never seemed to be an active “leader” in the coaching sense, at least not on-field. Her style has been more of a “lead by doing” kind of thing…but she’s no longer enough of an everyday impact player to do that.
ISTM that she’s ideally a super-sub and a bench player-coach…but she doesn’t seem to accept that role gracefully. She wants to start.
Maybe after the WC she’ll be willing to sit back into a less playing/more coaching role? Hope so.
Well, we knew that scoring would be a problem but it is difficult to see how bad it has become. There were two opportunities that really should have been goals that turned into nothing yesterday. Of course, the same could be said for NY/NJ as well.
The first Gotham goal was gruesome to watch. Kling fails to get within the same area code as Nighswonger, then gets _just_ enough of the cross to chip Bella. Kling, I love ya...but you're having an absolute stinker of a run of games (and haven't really been playing well all season).
Wasn't that Reyes' mark? Kling was in midfield. Reyes was all over the place positionally, often way too far forward. Not sure where she was on this sequence.
I was just watching that same segment, and Aidan pretty much nails it; it's the whole backline (and some others, including Weaver) packing into the box expecting Ryan to loft in a cross. Nobody is looking at Nighswonger because they're all mesmerized by the danger coming from the other angle.
I won't pretend Kling's been having a good stretch, but I'm not sure that was on her so much as the defensive tactics as a unit. Kling's part was a poor block that looped the ball into the air but not far enough...
I just watched the first goal back. The thing that's interesting to me is there are five Thorns within the width of the goalmouth in a line together, and a sixth just ahead. Those five players are marking 3 Gotham players, leaving Nighswonger free out wide. It's a reset from a corner, but that appears to be designed to defend a cross into the box from a set piece (which the Thorns have been really struggling with)...which then means that Kling's late getting out to block the cross.
This is certainly the most parity that's ever been in the league. This also might be the most mediocre level of play - certainly in the last 5 years of NWSL. These things are related, I think.
Parity can equal mediocrity. I wonder if league expansion has contributed to this, although it can't be the only explanation. Also, the number of high-quality U.S. players playing in Europe is increasing.
Yeah, we have a conversation going on in the other thread about this. I think the addition of three teams since 2019 has done a lot to dilute talent on teams and rosters. I'm not sure the Europe factor is really that big of a deal - it's only really two players, Macario and Horan. I do think there are more players choosing Europe over the US - see most Australians, for example - but this has always been a league big on domestic talent
More I look online, the more I realize that some of the best American players have come back to the U.S. I wonder if some made the move to be able to play competitively into July to be primed for the World Cup.
Are the Thorns really just Smith, Dunn, Sugita, Coffey and a bunch of schmoes? It sure looks that way on the pitch. I cringe to think how badly we would be losing without Coffey.
Well, it's not quite that bad, but I do think we have a bunch of players who are very good, who get paid a lot (relatively speaking), and who elevate others around them... and they're gone right now. Those who are left behind, some are good too but not necessarily to the same level as those who are gone and they're not able to pull the cart by themselves. Then we also have a very inexperienced bench and players who are probably here because they'll play for the minimum or close to it.
This, and our full roster of all-world players has been winning in spite of the coaching for a while now, IMO. When the all-world players are gone, the team falls apart and looks like they have no organization or gameplan whatsoever (not to mention being inexplicably played out of position). KK hasn't done the team any favors, either.
Really indicates how great Sugita, Dunn and Smith are. They really elevate the quality of those around them. In their absence some players who have looked spectacular this season (ex Weaver and Moultrie) have clearly dropped in level of play in their absence.
I think it's less that they're a bunch of schmoes and more that the entire attack has been geared to be built around Smith (and Dunn and Hina to lesser extents) and so they're failing because they don't have Smith. But it's one of those things: when the collective level is higher, everyone's game looks a bit better. When the collective level is lower, certain players who are have more off the ball strengths (think a lot about Weaver here, even Moultrie) struggle
Here's my question, tho; if the problem is expansion, is the other problem that the NCAA player pool isn't nearly as deep or as good as we've been told?
I mean...only 48 players get drafted each year. Meaning that 52 of the top 100 players in the nation AREN'T. Some get picked up as NRIs, some go to Europe, some just hang on hoping to get signed as replacements, etc. But that seems like a pretty big group of what are supposed to be the best players in the country that don't even get a shot.
So if this is too many teams for too few good players...sounds like the problem is that the NCAA isn't really turning out hundreds of good players every year, but that going from 40 draftees to 48 lowered the bar below mediocrity?
I think it starts with a scouting system that is ineffective and relies heavily on an archaic "good old boys" network that does a poor job locating, developing and promoting talent from all pools. There are thousands of D1 women soccer players any given year and lord knows how many D2 and 3. That's far too many for the Hendersons et al to track and truly evaluate.
God knows I learned a crapton about how insdery and political club soccer is watching Soccer Girl get passed over time and again, while other girls were ushered as far as ENCL and find themselves on a national stage. Soccer in northern California is the predominant girls sport, beginning with the daisy pickers, and most of those kids don't have a shot at being developed.
There's also the reality that flashy teens don't continue developing on an unending upward slope, because they all mature at very different rates. And injuries from play and from overtraining loom huge. Example: former teammate of my kid was the California HS D1 cross country champion as a junior then fractured her lower back overtraining and missed a year. She will run in college under scholarship but has not yet reclaimed her speed from two years ago.
Best soccer girl I've ever seen, another former teammate of my kid, could have gone the Moultrie route, still wants to go pro, but instead is heading to Harvard (having turned down Stanford) where I predict she'll tear holes through the other Ivies. One leg is assembled with titanium following a tib-fib fracture.
Compare soccer, especially girls soccer to the machine that is boys basketball and which has freshmen and sophomores comprising nearly the entire NBA draft. The tiny pro women's game has not generated anything like that. They need to do better.
Someone used to rant about the NCAA as “development” compared to the UEFA youth academies in the old Soccer America magazine, complaining about the lack of minutes, lack of technical skills, lack of outreach to other-than-middle-class players. Gist was that American colleges produced reams of players with terrific workrate and mediocre tactical and technical skills.
My guess is that’s improved…but maybe not as much as it should have..?
IMO it's the same issue that haunts women's pro soccer: the resources are concentrated among a scant few organizations, with a vast pool of also-rans comprising the rest of the field.
There are 333 NCAA Division 1 women's teams. Here are the top schools represented in NWSL.
NWSL Roster Alumni:
18 - UCLA
17 - North Carolina
16 - Stanford
14 - Virginia
12 - Penn State
8 - Florida State, Santa Clara, USC
7 - Duke, Rutgers
6 - Florida, Texas A&M, Washington State
4 - Cal, Notre Dame, Pepperdine, South Carolina, Wake Forest, West Virginia, Wisconsin
Will add that while most are large-to-huge schools, the outliers such as Santa Clara and Pepperdine are able to compete at the top level. It so happens that UCLA is the hardest UC to get accepted to, and Stanford's acceptance rate is a boggling 3.9%. Snagging a soccer scholarship there is the golden ticket (NB you actually have to attend class, too).
IOW, resources.
Know a bit about Stanford's program and will bet not a single NWSL team matches them. I think you'd need to look at a Chelsea or PSG or OL or Arsenal to see anything like that on the pro women's side.
I think this is exactly it. Same issue as MLS: College soccer is not a good method for finding the best players the league....especially as the best high schoolers begin to have alternative options that are financially feasible (see Thompson, Alyssa).
I suspect putting a girl among professional women makes the girl better than she would be still surrounded by other girls. At least for girls with honest ambition. Here I am thinking about ages 16-20. College soccer might retard their growth - it's not enough of a challenge, too many teammates are not serious athletes, plus a short schedule and non-standard rules.
If I am right, then the academy system needs to be more tightly tied to the senior team, as in training with them occasionally, and perhaps paired-off mentoring. This might find and attract more Alyssa Thompsons.
Yeah, and European teams have more often been picking off our young American talent...even the young Canadian talent. Lots had come here for school or the pros since there's been no woso scene in Canada. But now, many young talents go overseas, even to "meh" teams, like Reading (Deanne Rose.) Speaking of her...she's a free agent now that they've been relegated... but the same goes for Grosso, Fleming, Riviere, and probably others (I'm not super familiar with all the young Canadian talent lately.) But, we see it here now also....Mia Fishel left (albeit to Tigres.) Korbin Albert, Cat Macario, and then there's been several youth US nats who I've seen recently sign overseas. One youngster signed with Barcelona in the last week or two.
The main issue with the American model (across all genders) has and will continue to be the lack of real club-run developmental academies and reliance on college programs.
If you're a really good young woso player, you (thankfully) have a lot of options that make a lot more sense than going to college.......and one of those options is Europe. The infrastructure is already there in Europe, and now the investment is coming too: La Masia has massively expanded its girls recruitment in the last few years and I'm sure the WSL clubs will as well.
I wonder if the European model of player development is starting to impact the women's game as much as the men's. It certainly feels like the gap between the mid-level and high-level players is larger than it has ever been. Perhaps it is the number of teams that is exposing the difference.
From Jess Kassouf:
"A group of investors calling themselves For Denver FC has launched a public campaign to bring a pro women's team to Denver. #NWSL or USL Super League is possible. Colorado native Jordan Angeli has a leading role in organizing the effort. Tom Dunmore, Ben Hubbard also involved."
I've always been worried about a Denver NWSL club purely for selfish reasons because I think it could have the potential to pull Sophia back to CO.
I'm really not concerned about Smith leaving for another NWSL club assuming the sale gets done before the end of 2023.
The media also loves talking about potential expansion teams, and I'm sure Colorado will get one at some point, but not before 2025 or 2026.
If Colorado gets a grass field I'd say Smith is as good as gone.
why
That's assuming a lot lol.
Horan too perhaps someday.
Yeah, see the story posted below. Horan has already made a public statement for their twitter. I imagine she could go back there for her retirement days. No word on if it's a USL or NWSL team though...if it's a USL team, then we won't see any of those players going there. They're going for either, though. My guess? They'll be the other team to be added with Boston in 2025/6. It looks like they've already figured out their branding and colors...the same color green as the Thorns practice kits, hot pink, and white with mountains/trees/wildflowers graphics. Don't hate the branding so far....
They would have a hell of a team just using home state players.
Swanson, Smith, Horan, Howell, Beckie, Hamilton, Watt, Ryan Williams, Estelle Johnson, but also Daniels (boourns!). Just need a keeper!
https://www.famousfix.com/list/soccer-players-from-colorado
Ummmm, how could you leave out Natalie Beckman and Cheyenne Shorts?!
Still need a keeper, especially given Shorts's propensity for the Lederhosen (aka a goal/own-goal brace).
You could even add Kornieck, she is not from Colorado, but played there in college
Just for fun, here's Oregon...
https://www.famousfix.com/list/soccer-players-from-oregon
Would they take back Beckie?
I've already seen her add the twitter page and post about it. I'm not sure if she still has ties (ie, family) in CO, though?
A write up. They can't even spell the MVP's name right-lol.
https://burgundywave.com/2023/07/11/nwsl-denver-expansion-jordan-angeli/
Oh, they're already putting it out there to trade for Smith or Pugh?! We'd need the first draft pick for the next five years and a whole lot of allocation $$$, thanks. Or, maybe, just GTFO. Pretty bold of them lol. Could definitely see Horan coming back to play out her retirements years there.
Would love some damn media to focus on the THREE teams for sale right now rather than more news about what's happening in Boston (new stadium plans- yay!), or Denver, or whichever NWSL franchise is coming next...
oh wait, they already have a message post from Lindsey Horan as the first post on their facebook page, lol.
https://twitter.com/fordenverfc/status/1678830492521472001
I think "Burgundy Wave" must belong to San DeeAHHgo
Said my piece about the match in the game thread, so I’ll go a little more macro here:
Louisville, Orlando, Chicago, ACFC Combined points since July 1: 20
Portland, Seattle, SD, Washington combined points since July 1: 3
Parity, chaos, blah blah blah, this isn’t a good thing. There’s no reason to have *any* league games when every team’s best players are gone.
Agreed. It's time take an actual break OR shift the scheduling to conform with the rest of the world. There have been a few entertaining matches, but I wouldn't call them good. Far more often, however, the matches have been pretty grim.
Honestly, why not have no league games for 2 months and ALL the challenge cup games in July and August.
CBS/Attacking Third put together a nearly 15-minute "extended highlights" package of this match.
Nearly 15 minutes? From *this* match?
I can only surmise that they didn't want to have to rewatch it in order to edit down to actual highlights, so they just took the halftime intermission and uploaded that.
Just finished screening this one, and over thirty years of being a fan of this game, and ten as a fan of this club…that second half was one of the most deadly dull, hopelessly random forty-five minutes of my life and that includes pulling fire guard in an empty barracks.
Chasing the game, the Thorns had no urgency or shape. No organization, no plan, nothing. They looked completely baffled.
Part of that is that Norris is playing a Smith-centric attack only without Smith. I lost count of the times Vasconcelos and D’Aquila would take off on straight-ahead runs and Moultrie or Coffey would try and thread a pass thru to them.
But without Smith-grade pace and guile the forwards couldn’t break the backline and either the pass would get picked off or the forwards would be smothered.
It’s a perfect shitstorm; Norris’ “tactics” rely on hero-ball (which Betfort provided for the only goal and Kling didn’t on her point blank blast…) which means when you don’t have heroes, we’re kinda screwed.
And here’s the thing; even WITH heroes, if the opponent has bigger heroes, or your heroes have an off day, you lose.
Luckily nobody else looks reliable this season. But I can easily see this club having a jour sans in the semi or Final and crashing out. And I don’t see that Norris is going to develop massive tactical nous between then and now.
IF we could be heroes, just for one day...
Some interesting commentary from Rhian (yes, THAT Rhian) about how Team Canada/Bev has decided to make this WC team built around Sinclair (very interested to see how that goes), and also some of her own coaching philosophy. It's a short clip, but I thought a worthwhile share nonetheless...
https://twitter.com/footy_prime/status/1678789404805021698
Yes that was very interesting. I am not sure that strategy will last after the group stage and Rhian seems to back it and would not be shocked if Priestman decides to change.
I was so happy that Rhian sat Sinc for the semifinal last year, she brought her in the waning minutes just to make sure that Korniak didn't get a head on a Sheridan Hail Mary into the box. Sure enough Sinc headed that sucker 3/4 of the way up the field.
I think Canadians are so used to Sinclair being the most important and skilled player, it is just hard for them not to depend on her. And she is dependable, but just not as mobile anymore.
Yeah, very not surprised Rhian backs that strategy based on how she coached here. If I remember correctly, Canada has a pretty tough group stage...and there is a universe that exists where they don't make it out!
Nigeria, Australia and Ireland, none of those easy. Well I suppose Nigeria is a long-shot, but thats mostly ignorance on my part, I only recognize Iffy and Frannie Ordega as NWSl players. But Australia will be tough and Ireland.
Ireland played the US tough twice in April. Canada has a great goalie, great defense, a good midfield and in my opinion a talented but inconsistent attack. In reality Canada is Fleming's team now and she will have to be the hero.
"Portland only has to make it through two more games in this window (both Challenge Cup matches) before we can welcome back those players."
It could be three regular season matches before all return, depending on whether US wins out. Last time they went on some sort of "victory tour" before reporting back to their NWSL squads, and that Sept 2 match may not see Soph and Crystal on the pitch.
I do realize a victory tour requires a victory and they could even make the 8-27 match, depending. Yesterday's first half was a hot mess--looking at you Sanchez and Thompson. (Skipped the second to watch sparkling Thorns soccer instead.)
I'm not booking a seat for a victory tour this time. Too many crucial injuries and lots of young players. This generation will be great by the next cup. Happy to be wrong though.
I'm unsure how deep they'll go...lots of other teams with major injury absences, too (or "our federation are a bunch of dickheads" absences). It's really hard to say.
WWC after this one, though? Back to US v Japan...I'm callin' it now!
Australia playing at home is my dark horse favorite. I thought they were pretty strong at the last cup until they changed coaches three months before the cup.
They also just recently beat England 2-0! The stats heavily favored England in that game, but they still got it done. I watched a little documentary series (I think on Disney+?) about the Matildas, and it's hard not to root for them.
Yeah if we don't win it I'll be rooting for the teams that haven't won a WC (either women's or men's) - Australia, Sweden, Canada.
This WC feels more unpredictable than any I can remember. It seems like any one of England, Germany, USA, Spain, Sweden, or France could win it, and I have a hard time picking among these teams. I'm putting Japan, Australia, Canada, and Brazil in Tier 2 here - they have a remote chance but they'd need an extraordinary amount of luck.
The early NWSL was heavily supplemented by players from both Europe and Australia. The Aussies jumped ship en masse and most Europeans have too. From players like Amandine Henry, AMC, Catley, Carpenter, Raso, Nadim, Brynyarsdittir, and Boquette plus others supplemented the Thorns' American and Canadian players. Now, the Thorns only European player is Kuikka. Sugita, of course, is from Japan but everyone else is either a North, Central or South American. It's not so much the Americans going to Europe, it's the Europeans not coming at all that has damaged the overall talent level in the league. It's no secret that European talent development is miles ahead of Central and South America and probably Canada as well.
But some clubs are still trying to draw out of Europe and other parts of the world. Portland is not.
Portland really isn't trying anything... Last couple of years they've done the draft (and been so-so at it) and called it a day.
In the entire NWSL there are only 23 players from European countries counting the one from Iceland. Lists here: https://fbref.com/en/comps/182/nations/NWSL-Nationalities
Interesting. I looked at the info available via Wikipedia, and it shows active NWSL players from 27 countries outside the US, including Canada and Mexico.
It'd be interesting to compare this in terms of percentage of minutes played by nationalities with earlier seasons
That is probably stored in a database somewhere but I don't know how to find it.
D’aquila….too soon to press the panic button? From where I sit, button looking bigger and bigger.
So here's a hypothetical that occurred to me yesterday: Suppose that for whatever reason Sinclair had decided to pass on the World Cup and stayed and played with the Thorns this summer. Would the Thorns still be flailing or would the addition of a veteran who will actually take shots and put them on frame despite no longer being in her prime have made this team kinda competitive during the break? Obviously I don't think it would automatically make us the team to beat but it seems to me that she's good for a goal every couple of games, which at the very least gets us one tie in the last three. Or is she just too far over the hill to make a difference without the rest of the nats doing their thing?
What do y'all think?
I think if she'd decided to skip the Cup she wouldn't even be playing anymore.
Well yeah, of course! The hypothetical is that *hypothetically* she had magically been available for selection during the past three matches and for the matches that are upcoming between now and when the rest of the starters get back from the World Cup. Would she be a net positive or would she not really bring enough to elevate the rest of the current team above "train wreck" status?
Sinclair would be a net positive in my opinion. She would be displacing a combination of Porter, D'Aquila, Vasconcelos and Betfort and is a much better player than any of those four. Even being slower than any of those players her soccer IQ would allow her to be very effective. Would we win those three games? I'm not sure but she would have helped the team play much better, and since those games were all tight I can see us winning or getting a draw in each of them.
My only complaint about Sinclair is that when the team is at full strength she impacts playing time for Moultre, Rodriguez and Dunn, and she simply isn't better than those three.
That's sort of where I landed. I think she could also take some pressure off Moultrie, which would make her more effective or allow Norris to try something else with her. Alternatively, just parking her in the box would probably give us more bite than we currently have.
Her pace has fallen off to the point where when we play a team with any sort of ability it's basically playing 10.5 v 11. If we'd play her as a true poacher (which we don't really have the providers for and, besides, we have Smith...) she could use that "pops up to score every third game or so" thing to good use. But that'd be a different team.
I won't say she's "useless". But I don't see her with the ability to force herself into the match enough to change the game state the way she could ten years ago...
I agree. I think her biggest contribution would be as a coach on the field because it seems we're lacking a coach on the sideline. Organization, slowing the game down, playing more of a controlled passing game would be the benefit. The negative would be the pace to join the play either on offense or defense. I think she might have to play striker with Moultrie at the 10, though, to maximize the abilities of those two players while minimizing their deficiencies.
Sinc has never seemed to be an active “leader” in the coaching sense, at least not on-field. Her style has been more of a “lead by doing” kind of thing…but she’s no longer enough of an everyday impact player to do that.
ISTM that she’s ideally a super-sub and a bench player-coach…but she doesn’t seem to accept that role gracefully. She wants to start.
Maybe after the WC she’ll be willing to sit back into a less playing/more coaching role? Hope so.
Heh, good question. I'd have swapped her for Kling yesterday, TBH.
Well, we knew that scoring would be a problem but it is difficult to see how bad it has become. There were two opportunities that really should have been goals that turned into nothing yesterday. Of course, the same could be said for NY/NJ as well.
The first Gotham goal was gruesome to watch. Kling fails to get within the same area code as Nighswonger, then gets _just_ enough of the cross to chip Bella. Kling, I love ya...but you're having an absolute stinker of a run of games (and haven't really been playing well all season).
Wasn't that Reyes' mark? Kling was in midfield. Reyes was all over the place positionally, often way too far forward. Not sure where she was on this sequence.
Like Aidan says, Reyes was elsewhere intentionally at the time. Kling was playing deep...but really centrally and left a massive amount of space.
I think Reyes was on the other side for the set piece
I was just watching that same segment, and Aidan pretty much nails it; it's the whole backline (and some others, including Weaver) packing into the box expecting Ryan to loft in a cross. Nobody is looking at Nighswonger because they're all mesmerized by the danger coming from the other angle.
I won't pretend Kling's been having a good stretch, but I'm not sure that was on her so much as the defensive tactics as a unit. Kling's part was a poor block that looped the ball into the air but not far enough...
I just watched the first goal back. The thing that's interesting to me is there are five Thorns within the width of the goalmouth in a line together, and a sixth just ahead. Those five players are marking 3 Gotham players, leaving Nighswonger free out wide. It's a reset from a corner, but that appears to be designed to defend a cross into the box from a set piece (which the Thorns have been really struggling with)...which then means that Kling's late getting out to block the cross.
This is certainly the most parity that's ever been in the league. This also might be the most mediocre level of play - certainly in the last 5 years of NWSL. These things are related, I think.
Parity can equal mediocrity. I wonder if league expansion has contributed to this, although it can't be the only explanation. Also, the number of high-quality U.S. players playing in Europe is increasing.
Yeah, we have a conversation going on in the other thread about this. I think the addition of three teams since 2019 has done a lot to dilute talent on teams and rosters. I'm not sure the Europe factor is really that big of a deal - it's only really two players, Macario and Horan. I do think there are more players choosing Europe over the US - see most Australians, for example - but this has always been a league big on domestic talent
More I look online, the more I realize that some of the best American players have come back to the U.S. I wonder if some made the move to be able to play competitively into July to be primed for the World Cup.
I mean, most never really left bar for the early pandemic phase.
Are the Thorns really just Smith, Dunn, Sugita, Coffey and a bunch of schmoes? It sure looks that way on the pitch. I cringe to think how badly we would be losing without Coffey.
Well, it's not quite that bad, but I do think we have a bunch of players who are very good, who get paid a lot (relatively speaking), and who elevate others around them... and they're gone right now. Those who are left behind, some are good too but not necessarily to the same level as those who are gone and they're not able to pull the cart by themselves. Then we also have a very inexperienced bench and players who are probably here because they'll play for the minimum or close to it.
This, and our full roster of all-world players has been winning in spite of the coaching for a while now, IMO. When the all-world players are gone, the team falls apart and looks like they have no organization or gameplan whatsoever (not to mention being inexplicably played out of position). KK hasn't done the team any favors, either.
Really indicates how great Sugita, Dunn and Smith are. They really elevate the quality of those around them. In their absence some players who have looked spectacular this season (ex Weaver and Moultrie) have clearly dropped in level of play in their absence.
I think it's less that they're a bunch of schmoes and more that the entire attack has been geared to be built around Smith (and Dunn and Hina to lesser extents) and so they're failing because they don't have Smith. But it's one of those things: when the collective level is higher, everyone's game looks a bit better. When the collective level is lower, certain players who are have more off the ball strengths (think a lot about Weaver here, even Moultrie) struggle
Here's my question, tho; if the problem is expansion, is the other problem that the NCAA player pool isn't nearly as deep or as good as we've been told?
I mean...only 48 players get drafted each year. Meaning that 52 of the top 100 players in the nation AREN'T. Some get picked up as NRIs, some go to Europe, some just hang on hoping to get signed as replacements, etc. But that seems like a pretty big group of what are supposed to be the best players in the country that don't even get a shot.
So if this is too many teams for too few good players...sounds like the problem is that the NCAA isn't really turning out hundreds of good players every year, but that going from 40 draftees to 48 lowered the bar below mediocrity?
Seems...hard to credit...
I think it starts with a scouting system that is ineffective and relies heavily on an archaic "good old boys" network that does a poor job locating, developing and promoting talent from all pools. There are thousands of D1 women soccer players any given year and lord knows how many D2 and 3. That's far too many for the Hendersons et al to track and truly evaluate.
God knows I learned a crapton about how insdery and political club soccer is watching Soccer Girl get passed over time and again, while other girls were ushered as far as ENCL and find themselves on a national stage. Soccer in northern California is the predominant girls sport, beginning with the daisy pickers, and most of those kids don't have a shot at being developed.
There's also the reality that flashy teens don't continue developing on an unending upward slope, because they all mature at very different rates. And injuries from play and from overtraining loom huge. Example: former teammate of my kid was the California HS D1 cross country champion as a junior then fractured her lower back overtraining and missed a year. She will run in college under scholarship but has not yet reclaimed her speed from two years ago.
Best soccer girl I've ever seen, another former teammate of my kid, could have gone the Moultrie route, still wants to go pro, but instead is heading to Harvard (having turned down Stanford) where I predict she'll tear holes through the other Ivies. One leg is assembled with titanium following a tib-fib fracture.
Compare soccer, especially girls soccer to the machine that is boys basketball and which has freshmen and sophomores comprising nearly the entire NBA draft. The tiny pro women's game has not generated anything like that. They need to do better.
Plus, not everybody can afford to play NWSL (or elsewhere) after college, given how crappy the lower-end salaries happen to be.
Big issue. Day manager at Chipotle can earn as much as the lowest salary tier, and NWSL compares favorably to most other pro leagues.
Someone used to rant about the NCAA as “development” compared to the UEFA youth academies in the old Soccer America magazine, complaining about the lack of minutes, lack of technical skills, lack of outreach to other-than-middle-class players. Gist was that American colleges produced reams of players with terrific workrate and mediocre tactical and technical skills.
My guess is that’s improved…but maybe not as much as it should have..?
IMO it's the same issue that haunts women's pro soccer: the resources are concentrated among a scant few organizations, with a vast pool of also-rans comprising the rest of the field.
There are 333 NCAA Division 1 women's teams. Here are the top schools represented in NWSL.
NWSL Roster Alumni:
18 - UCLA
17 - North Carolina
16 - Stanford
14 - Virginia
12 - Penn State
8 - Florida State, Santa Clara, USC
7 - Duke, Rutgers
6 - Florida, Texas A&M, Washington State
4 - Cal, Notre Dame, Pepperdine, South Carolina, Wake Forest, West Virginia, Wisconsin
Will add that while most are large-to-huge schools, the outliers such as Santa Clara and Pepperdine are able to compete at the top level. It so happens that UCLA is the hardest UC to get accepted to, and Stanford's acceptance rate is a boggling 3.9%. Snagging a soccer scholarship there is the golden ticket (NB you actually have to attend class, too).
IOW, resources.
Know a bit about Stanford's program and will bet not a single NWSL team matches them. I think you'd need to look at a Chelsea or PSG or OL or Arsenal to see anything like that on the pro women's side.
I think this is exactly it. Same issue as MLS: College soccer is not a good method for finding the best players the league....especially as the best high schoolers begin to have alternative options that are financially feasible (see Thompson, Alyssa).
I suspect putting a girl among professional women makes the girl better than she would be still surrounded by other girls. At least for girls with honest ambition. Here I am thinking about ages 16-20. College soccer might retard their growth - it's not enough of a challenge, too many teammates are not serious athletes, plus a short schedule and non-standard rules.
If I am right, then the academy system needs to be more tightly tied to the senior team, as in training with them occasionally, and perhaps paired-off mentoring. This might find and attract more Alyssa Thompsons.
Yeah, and European teams have more often been picking off our young American talent...even the young Canadian talent. Lots had come here for school or the pros since there's been no woso scene in Canada. But now, many young talents go overseas, even to "meh" teams, like Reading (Deanne Rose.) Speaking of her...she's a free agent now that they've been relegated... but the same goes for Grosso, Fleming, Riviere, and probably others (I'm not super familiar with all the young Canadian talent lately.) But, we see it here now also....Mia Fishel left (albeit to Tigres.) Korbin Albert, Cat Macario, and then there's been several youth US nats who I've seen recently sign overseas. One youngster signed with Barcelona in the last week or two.
The main issue with the American model (across all genders) has and will continue to be the lack of real club-run developmental academies and reliance on college programs.
If you're a really good young woso player, you (thankfully) have a lot of options that make a lot more sense than going to college.......and one of those options is Europe. The infrastructure is already there in Europe, and now the investment is coming too: La Masia has massively expanded its girls recruitment in the last few years and I'm sure the WSL clubs will as well.
I wonder if the European model of player development is starting to impact the women's game as much as the men's. It certainly feels like the gap between the mid-level and high-level players is larger than it has ever been. Perhaps it is the number of teams that is exposing the difference.