Outside of our defensive 18 we were a void in a vacuum in deep space. Very disappointing performance.
Just play Ivacic against Seattle. Or maybe just send only Gio out of the locker room with a literal white flag instead of the figurative one he ran out with today.
Pathetic.
I’ve been fairly defensive of the team so far this year. But if they aren’t going to make Vancouver defend at all, I’m not going to either.
The players have skills but Gio can't figure out how to use them.
I love Moreno but he's been out of it the last few games and not sure why. I think he's one of the best in the league but something is not working with him.
Crime fighter McGraw is a Boss!
Mosquera is the real deal and i hope we keep him for awhile- he missed the shot but he's so good.
Boli and Evander look like they'll team up nice.
I'm gonna stop there with the players.
Terrible game but we have the skills if someone can get them out.
That was from his source from the team (whoever that is). Gio said Bravo had hamstring tightness and was kept out for precautionary reasons, not a coaches decision
Bravo's my favorite player on this team. He's gutsy, aggressive, and skillful. Always plays hard and most always makes the smart pass. Good passer into the box. If we had a complete team made up of players like him we'd be top shelf. Yes, I read that he may have a "tight hammy". I wonder if that's like Gio saying Ivacic was hurt when he wasn't (according to Ivacic). Players like these need to be shown they are valued. I don't value Gio.
I will almost always trust a coach over a player when regarding the health of said player. The player will almost always say they are healthy because they want to play. The coach isn’t as biased and will be more objective about it. I’m sure Bravo will be fine
Simply put, worst game of the year. There was no connection between the players, I don’t know if I saw more than 4 passes connect all game long. It’s good to have Evander back, but he needs to be on the ball a lot more. Moreno just hasn’t shown up this year, and I’m a big fan of his. The team has to get things together, or next weekend is going to be U G L Y!
If Bravo’s not injured, I can’t fathom why Rasmussen is starting.
But that’s just a quibble. The team looks like a mess. Not much else to say.
Haters are gonna hate, but we missed Williamson out there in transition and on the attack. We had no one steering the ship. Evander looked frustrated once he finally came on. And then suddenly we had three forwards and no midfield connecting them. Everything was just a shambles.
All these injuries are really frustrating. Why aren’t the training and physio staff under some fire. It’s their job to keep the players in a condition that staves off niggling injuries which lead to long term injuries.
Completely agree. I don’t know the business side of soccer at all, but this is the second season in a row where we’ve been incredibly limited due to a long injury list. Seems like it would make sense to completely gut the med staff and start over with a fresh point of view there…
IIRC the team did a major overhaul of the training staff sometime around Porter's last year following a similar rash of injuries. I'd have to go back and look but it seems like we've had this conversation before. I wonder if the earlier start to the season and colder than normal spring for us have had any impact.
Are there any lights on in Timbers' offices? Anyone home? I don't know who is, or can be, making decisions at this point; is Paulson sulking alone in his room? Does Grabavoy have any authority? The Timbers seem like a ghost ship adrift on a big ocean, and the product on the field must be a reflection of the overall state of the franchise.
This isn't EPL. Given MLS roster rules there are literally three things that Merritt can do right now:
1.) Fire Gio. New coach will be new to the team and still have the same roster and injuries to deal with and have zero experience with the team.
2.) Get rid of one and only one player and replace them. Natural options are Niezgoda or Blanco. One more player is not fixing this team on any kind of timescale that salvages this season. Putting Blanco on the SEI list gets you potentially two players but also tells potential players that you will throw them under the bus.
3.) Fire Ned. New GM inherents the same mess and has the same restrictions as Ned.
There is no moving any of the other players because who would take them? He can probably move Mosquera, Williamson (now on the cheap b/c his old injury history is now a pervasive injury history and his potential from a few years ago is now "he is an ok MLS starter") , Moreno (who would've been a hot commodity before this season but now has serious question marks around him), or Ivacic but that's it. Would a replacement at the same investment level be better?
"1.) Fire Gio. New coach will be new to the team and still have the same roster and injuries to deal with and have zero experience with the team."
Is this supposed to be a reason to keep Gio? If so, this doesn't do what you want it to do.
It's like you have never watched any league outside of mls, including the one you first started this post with. Coaches get fired all the time and coaches inherit injured squads or poor squads all the time. Sometimes a coach comes in and makes a big impact. Look at crystal palace for instance. Under Viera they were stagnant and a bottom dwelling team struggling to stay up in the league. They couldn't score and were leaking goals. Now under their new manager Roy hodgson they have scored 7 goals in two games. Everyone blamed the roster but it was obviously that Viera was not coaching them in a way that got the best out of the roster. Roy has so far.
Their are a lot of examples of this in sports. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't but the coach should always be the first to take responsibility and lose their job. (he would still get paid out either way.) After you bring in a new coach you can wait and see what improvements happen and get a fresh perspective from that coach on the roster. Example is 2013. We got a new coach (porter) and they overhauled the roster. That year was the best year we had in mls, finishing 3rd in the league and top in the west.
It has been gone over at nauseating degrees on here of why people have lost faith in gio. Look at a team like bayern. They moved on from nagelsman not because they weren't doing well but because they didn't like the brand identity that was being played under nagelsman. They demanded a good product on the field, as well as a winning team. Now would I say myself or others demand we win every game like bayern.....no. however when you watch as much soccer as I have, you notice differences in teams. You start to see patterns among winning teams and losing teams. Style, mentality, cohesion, ect. Just like you notice a player's strengths and weaknesses and how it correlates to their position.
People can pretend like gio hasn't lost the locker room but our play tells 1 of 2 stories. Either he has lost the locker room or he is doing a poor job of coaching. This isn't past years where we were unlucky in results. Playing well but finding ways to lose. This goes way beyond that. This is a team that has no idea what they are supposed to be doing. That is 100% on the coach. That is literally their job. To come up with a game plan against the opposition and then go over it in practice with the team. Tell them how to exploit the other teams weaknesses. That's a coaches job. This isn't us just not getting the bounces or being unlucky which happened a lot under porter. I don't know how many times we heard his say "we were the better team.....but." and most times I would agree with that statement. This team not only this year but last year, was extremely poor. Not just to start the year but throughout the year. Missing the playoffs and playing poorly with a full strength squad put gio on. Short leash this year and to start this year we are not only bad but we are the worst Timbers team I have ever seen. So our spending and quality of players have gone up but we are playing worse than we ever have. You can blame it on whatever you want, but when a team of professional athletes go 45 minutes without creating 1 shot, that's when you have to say "bye gio." He has either lost it or has lost the team.
"Putting Blanco on the SEI list gets you potentially two players but also tells potential players that you will throw them under the bus."
I don't think it does, though. If a player is unfit to play, that player shouldn't occupy a roster spot, and the SEI list is a natural place to park him while he's still under contract. Buying out his contract and cutting him loose right now would be more of a throw-him-under-the-bus scenario.
I think your options are actually listed in the correct order. As you note, no new GM would be able to magically/quickly fix the shitshow that GW left behind, and I think Ned can be really good at the GM job once the big salaries are off the books next season. I would be, and I hope Ned is, frantically looking for a trade partner for Niezgoda, even if the trade results in the Timbers taking a huge loss on their investment. The whole "trade anyone who has value" thing happened again over the winter when Bill left, and the Timbers cannot afford, in a playing sense, to lose any more talent at this point.
This team is in one hell of a messy spot right now, and there are no easy fixes, but a new coach might at least be able to install some sort of coherence and system with the players that are here, and stop the bleeding until the more structural work of overhauling the roster can get under way in earnest.
I mean, it's not like there are no coaches around. There will always be someone who is up for a challenge like this as long as the money is right.
And how are you so sure the FO 'won't buy him out'? If they lose 5-0 this coming weekend, on the heels of several other dispiriting results, it becomes less a question of "will they buy him out" and more a question of "how long until they do". The way the team is going now is unsustainable, and preserving the status quo will just make it worse.
If MP truly does want this team to rot, nothing will happen; if he wants to actually make the team better, he can easily afford a buyout and a new coach contract that will probably require more in salary than it would have this time last season.
Sure there are coaches around. But early in the season are they the best available? The FO has an inexperienced CEO and GM who is doing double duty as scouting director. T2 is a train wreck and the academy is producing far fewer MLS-caliber players, much less those with a future in Europe. The organization is way behind many clubs and has been. Paulson is ultimately to blame, and does anyone think he will change?
Maybe it is even more than want. Can MP actually make the right moves, even if he wanted to?
For example: Signing Gio to a three-year contract - This is turning into an anchor weight around the franchise. He needs to go, but I doubt MP would or could hire a name and or an up and comer coach beyond someone from the USL. Also, running a boys club front office for so many years stifled progressive thought and kept the team from keeping pace with what the rest of the league was doing.
The play on the field is the byproduct of a shoddy front office that comes from the top - MP. He should be the first to go so Portland can be proud of its team again.
It's a good question Rifer is asking. Six months later and no one has been found to take Ned's place?
I think MP has dug a pretty big hole for himself here. He's got to prove he's going to be hands off like he promised and that's going to take a while. How many times did he pledge to get off Twitter only to jump back on a few months later?
"dug a pretty big hole for himself" implies that MP cares enough about the Timbers that he's just making inadvertent mistakes that he will then fix once he recognizes they've been made.
I believe, as others have also said, that MP's actually allowing the Timbers to stagnate like this as a petulant, childish, "you want to see what this team looks like when I don't care? Check this out!" reaction to the myriad controversies of the last several years. He's a spoiled rich kid who was given a toy. The batteries started to sputter on his toy, and rather than replacing the batteries, he's blaming the toy for being defective, and letting his toy rot until he gets a new one.
I don't believe the way the Timbers are being run now is the result of a good faith effort to make the team better. I wish Merritt would just sell up, cash in, and let someone run the team who wants the team to be good again, because I have lost what little faith I ever had in MP (I was never a huge fan, even before all the shit) as an effective steward of the Timbers.
I guess I'm just trying to speak facts here instead of conjecture. It may be very true he's acting like a petulant rich kid that was gifted a toy (and, yes he absolutely needs to cash out). I honestly wouldn't be surprised but have no proof.
My point is this, though. Would you apply for a job (let's pretend it's a small promotion with a little better pay) with Peregrine sports? Not sure I would. When PTFC offered Valeri a TAM contract instead of a DP for 2020, I seem to remember part of that included a FO spot when he hung up the boots. Why's he working for apple TV now? He's a MLS legend that could be great in that position.
I have no proof either, I'm just speculating based on the fact that the Timbers are playing like hot garbage right now, have done so for the last probably 25-30 games or so, and show no signs of improvement or change at all. In many cases, that's plenty to cost a coach their job, but not here.
"Would you apply for a job (let's pretend it's a small promotion with a little better pay) with Peregrine sports? "
I mean, new coaches and players come to underperforming/struggling teams all the time, right? I'm not quite sure that Portland is such an extreme outlier that people would avoid it like a nuclear waste disposal site. Lots of athletes and coaches like the challenge of turning a bad situation around.
The challenges facing the Timbers aren't unique. look at RSL for a recent example, and that's just in MLS - other teams in other leagues have gone through ownership disinterest and underperforming roster challenges as well. Given enough incentive, I don't see it as impossible that a new coach would want to come here and see if they could make their mark.
Defend Gio. Because there's literally no way I can. This was inexcusably bad. Gio had a reasonably strong lineup to choose from, and we got...that.
The one advantage to probably getting boatraced by Seattle next week is that that will make it hard to defend him having a job here, and easier for Ned to fire him.
Like with most things to get corrected, things have to hit rock bottom first. I think your right that once the Timbers get destroyed at home by their arch rivals, then that will hopefully start the process of truly correcting all the problems this team has. This season's Timbers are already a bottom of the table team and that isn't going to change until the rebuilding starts and it might as well start now. Use the rest of this season for that.
Bravo had hamstring tightness, which is why he didn’t play.
I’m looking forward to having players back because we actually had some competent sequences of play with Evander and Boli on the field. Ayala had some nice plays. Both of them look very good. But for now? There was no team out there, just a bunch of individuals. We were getting swarmed every time we got the ball. Gutierrez was lost in the midfield, too little fault of his own, it’s not at all his position and just his third career MLS start.
Why Jaro came on instead of Nathan I will never know. We ended with Boli and Nathan playing on the wings... a sign of where our squad is at health-wise. I still believe this team may do something with actual healthy players, but for now it is rough
Health and available talent level are limiting factors. Tonight coaching was as well. If these guys are on an MLS roster, coach needs to come up with some sort of plan that at least gives us a plausible shot at creating a single goddam chance. Did we touch the ball in Vancouver's box in the first half?
Usually my tone is a bit more like yours. I'm just really sour on this showing.
I do think Boli looks promising. He can be on the ball in a way Goda can't.
We're reduced to picking over scraps after the feast is over. This individual player did this or that. It's like watching T2 and seeing who might make it to the next level. It is understandable in that it has been a rotating cast of characters the entire season, so the expectation that they look like a well oiled machine is unreasonable. I agree there are some bright spots, but this is tough waking up to the fact that this team can't compete.
A few thoughts:
-You mess with Ikoba you bruise your shoulder
-Whenever Rasmussen plays Timbers seem to play it safe and never try to play out of the back. It makes for a long night.
-Timbers were overrun in the midfield. Playing against a 4-3-2-1, maybe overload a side and go for the big switch. Too many times there were passes to a lone midfielder in the middle and he would get swarmed and lose it.
-It always seems to be an ugly game against Vancouver
-Nice to see Evander back and Boli I give a thumbs up.
Honestly, and I love Ivacic, but I'd love him to miss a few games so the real Timbers team can be revealed. They're mostly horrible, and Ivacic almost singlehandedly makes them look mediocre with his acrobatic saves and amazing reflexes. But let's give Hunter Sulte a run of games* and then they can show everyone the unvarnished truth of what this team is.
*I am 100% kidding to make a point I do not want this
I would argue that even Bingham had a really good start to the season and papered over the issues. With slightly less competent goalkeeping we wouldn't even have the one win in the opener, probably with 2 or 3 points total and either tied for last in the league or in sole possession.
Having no Bravo or Williamson on the field made playing out of the back an impossible task. Mosquera was the only one who was able to relieve pressure a little, but he passed it to someone else who would then give the ball away. I’m hoping Ayala can start next game, we desperately need him
Generally a 4-3-2-1 is very much a defensive posture, looking to counter and steal a goal or two. We couldn't hold the ball against it and were wasteful. We were offensively dominated by a defensive mindset team. Crazy.
With the strength of that formation in the middle, the Ts shoulda attacked outside all day long, but they couldn't or wouldn't. Too many long balls and hope for a good bounce. It was terrible.
To your point, Vancouver hit that big switch in transition time and time again. It kept Portland on the back foot giving up a zillion corners. And we're forgetting to discuss that Vancouver had 2 goals called back! This could have been worse. It looked like the 3rd should have been called back for ball out of play as well, but at that point it's reeeeally hard to argue the Timbers didn't deserve to be losing.
Hard to watch, both literally and figuratively. First, I spent the first 35 minutes trying to get Apple TV to let me watch this "free" game. It wanted me to activate through a link to apple.com, first it worked but when I logged in it said my password was wrong (it wasn't I set it up on Friday after spending an hour with Apple support trying to get my existing account working, ultimately they said to create a brand new gmail account purely for this since my existing one doesn't work and they can't say why). Then when I tried logging on directly on my TV it said my account is locked for security reasons, then I logged on with my PC and it said my password was wrong. I reset it again, and could watch the game on my laptop or phone. Went back to TV and tried activating again, but this time it said the code it gave me was invalid. I reset and tried again 5-6 times. Ultimately I just typed in my login and password using the remote and got to start the game. I was able to skip the 30 minutes of them talking about Seattle and went straight to watching a low quality feed of the game. My son said the quality and graphics made it looks like a 10 year old FIFA game.
Then I got the pleasure of watching the team play another game of clueless, listless, uninspired, confused soccer. I wondered what exactly was Gio's pre-game plan he gave the team and whether they were failing at it or succeeding? Still haven't paid for this Apple crap product, and the team isn't really inspiring me to do so.
Expectations ruined this for me. If this game followed the Galaxy game against a rested Whitecaps team on the road I wouldn’t be surprised at how pathetic the Timbers played. But the Dallas game looked like the team was making some progress. Add to that the Whitecaps had a midweek game and might be a little tired/flat/rotated and aren’t a great team so I thought the Timbers had an even chance at points in this game. In the first half I thought the plan was to let the kids play (Guittierez, Rasmussen, Ikoba), keep a compact defense and wear them down a little and then bring in some subs and a coherent attack in the second half. But then the attack in the second half wasn’t any better and they looked slow to react and lethargic the whole game. I know there are injuries and people playing out of position but that team looked lost.
Tip of the hat to Vancouver. They got beat midweek and came out and played hard. They could smell a chance at points and were determined to get them. Sartini had them motivated. They went after loose balls and switched to defense immediately when they lost possession winning the ball back several times. I don’t mean to offend fellow Timbers fans but I admire the grit.
After starting the season with some optimism and then seeing some good signs in Dallas I am back to trying to take some positives out of bad games (Ivacic looks good, Zach is a legit starter, we are developing some players, Chara had some tackles, Mosquera was a good pickup).
Last thought - if Bravo wasn’t fit to play why was he on the bench? I guess he could play in an emergency? But wouldn’t that risk making the injury worse?
The starting lineup was met with some despair when I saw it. Ikoba was fine, but the midfield was a lot of strange choices. Made up of "returning from major injury" (Asprilla), Inexperienced guy who is OK but not MLS starting quality (Gutierez), out of position but maybe it will work (Mosquera), woefully ineffective all season long thus far (Moreno) with Chara who is a legend but can't do it all at 37. It was chaotic and disorganized, lots of 1 on 1 play and lots of just bad passing and lack of movement. Unfortunately bringing on subs didn't help much - they did find rhythm a bit later in the game and strung together a few passes, but nothing incisive enough to even get 1 shot on goal in 98 minutes. That is pretty sad, even worse than I would expect - but I didn't expect to win this one, especially after I saw the starters - not just the midfield chaos but two outside backs who are backups.
I don't think there is much to be learned from this game other than we have some significant offensive problems and we already knew that.
What midfield would you have started? Our only central midfielder that isn't coming off injury and on limited minutes was Chara. Our only outside midfielder/winger that isn't coming off injury and on limited minutes were Gutierrez and Moreno. That is literally it... Asprilla, Yimmi, Paredes, Williamson, Ayala, Loria, and Blanco are coming back or out.
If you do this and the direction to Ikoba and Nathan is primarily high press and look to counter, the midfield of 4 to stay compact and defend/look to counter would not have been worse. We were SOOOO narrow when we had the ball - just running 1vX into the teeth of the defense.
my idea behind the 4-4-2 was kinda what you were saying above. We are deficient in some positions. Primarily a player that can dictate tempo. Outside of Evander or Williamson I don't think anyone on this team can play as a 10. They can't hold on to the ball or control the tempo of the attack.
In a 4-4-2 you essentially are playing 8 players in front of the ball. This is highly effective when you know you are going to lose the possession battle. It also slows down the build up but keeps your team from being under constant pressure. It forces the other team to look for space to attack unlike a 4-3-3 that can leave teams exposed.
4-3-3 works if you plan to play a high tempo or possession based game. Keeping your forwards higher up the field for quick transitions to goal off turnovers up field. It also helps put pressure higher up the field. That's the whole point of the 4-3-3. It's either effective when controlling possession or when pressing to create turnovers in the oppositions own half.
But here is the problem with that.
1) we are terrible at pressing as a collective unit. So we rarely create turnovers up field.
2) if you want to play a possession based 4-3-3 you have to either have a team that understands and executes attacking patterns to a high level or you have to have wingers that can go 1v1 and pull defenders like a rubber band. We don't do either very well. And we don't have those kind of wingers.
Conclusion: 4-3-3 is not our best option. Especially since Moreno has regressed and yimmi has been out. 4-3-3 shouldn't even be in the cards right now.
A 4-2-3-1 is a good mid block formation. But that 10 spot is very important to create attacking opportunities. And even more important are the 2 guys sitting behind that 10. Those 2 need to be very good at shielding the backline and quick to jump on turnovers when they happen. Winning the ball back. Having those 2 behind that mid 3 essentially cuts the field in half vertical. Each player responsible for jumping on turnovers and getting the ball back. That's why the chara and Will Johnson Era was so fun to watch. Both were quick to jump on those turnovers. Winning the ball back quickly. It was like having two junkyard dogs infront of our back 4.
For most of this year when we played a 4-2-3-1 it was eryk next to chara. Does that honestly sound like something eryk is strong at. Reading potential turnovers and closing down the space? Winning the ball back? I would say no. As a matter of fact HELL NO! so what happens when you play a 4-2-3-1 and a turnover happens but you realistically only have one defense minded player behind that midfield 3? Especially when they are higher up the field trying to attack. You leave a 37 year old chara who is obviously regressing to cover the field horizontally. He can't do that anymore. Eryk ends up pushing into the attack and it leaves all the space behind him for chara to cover. That's why Paredes is a better partner. He stays deeper to cut the field in half and is very good at choosing the right moments to attack. Like Will Johnson was. How many times did will run into the box from a deep run to score or assist. It was a side of his game that was very underrated. Along with just how good he was at winning the 50/50 balls. Chara hadnt had a partner like that since WJ. Paredes is the closest to it and ayala is still a question mark. So again a 4-2-3-1 with anyone but Paredes next to chara is a bad idea.
Again the 4-4-2 based on our players available and their talents is the best formation right now. Stay in a mid to low block. Stay disciplined and compact. Force teams to break us down. Then spring counters with Nathan and ikoba or frank. Ikoba and frank have size for hold up and Nathan as speed to get in behind. With so many back to commit to defending, you need 2 strikers up top so they can play off each other on a fast break. Otherwise if you sit deeper you just leave your striker on an island. Until everyone is match fit it has to be a 4-4-2.
It all depends on who is available of course. We have a very big mismatch of players.
I agree with everything here. 4-4-2 is simple and something everyone understands, too.
When the heck is Paredes getting back?! At some point when there is a little more health, I wouldn't mind seeing this:
4-2-3-1:
.....................Boli....
Moreno ..... Evander ..... Mosquera
............DC ..............Paredes........
Bravo .... Zup ..... McGraw ......Miller (gulp)
I'd shop Williamson around the league and see if I could get a winger (Moreno could fill in for Evander) . or a cheap defensive midfielder type and a winger.
Or, just say screw it. Until we lose the contracts of Blanco, Niezgoda, we're just treading water and sinking fast. Yimmi is deadweight for me too. He is not effective offensively.
Yimmi was one of our most productive offensive players last year, I’d much rather have him play on the wing than have Miller play. Mosquera can do a job at winger but I think he’s better as a fullback
My bad (wording). I said poor choices, but we were choice restricted. You are correct that he didn't have much other choice if committed to a 4-3-3 and playing a defender in the midfield and 2 midfielders at forward positions. I would argue what we were really playing was a 4-1-4-1, but the argument is a semantic formation one. The problem with it, no matter how you slice it is that there was no organizer / CAM.
I honestly think we Gio and staff were hoping for a 0-0 draw. We have the worst xG in the league and even before this game take the lowest shots / 90 minutes in the entirety of MLS. This lineup had no way to do better and it did worse, in fact. The available players and options had no ability to move the ball through the midfield, organize counters or do much other than 1vX hero ball. It didn't work because we conceded a goal (and honestly probably should have conceded even more if we are being fair about the run of play) and we are a team who is offensively anemic without a strong Valeri type orchestrateor. Since Valeri's fall from his best, we have tried to paper that over with Blanco or Y. Chara, now have Evander who is going to take time still to really make the position his own and has no backup (I wouldn't really even call Y. Chara a missing backup - CAM wasn't his strong suit when we used him there). Williamson's style helps but he isn't a classic CAM either.
I didn't think we were going to win this game starting a month ago and nothing changed right up to kickoff, was worse odds even without Williamson.
I don't think we were trying to win, hoping for a 0-0 draw or at least limiting the embarrassment in a loss (mission accomplished on the scoreline, but not the game / stat lines - we got crushed). We are just trying to play out the injuries but will be in such a deep hole that I don't think everyone being back and available in June/July/August will help and we will miss the playoffs by a wide margin. A rebuilding year marred / limited even further by way too many injured players. My only hope is that this doesn't stunt the growth of the core starting players for 2024, 25, 26 which won't include most of the guys who started Saturday.
It's no fun when the season is already over and it's still raining hard. It'd be nice if the games had some offense at least for entertainment purposes. The number of fouls and turnovers in the Vancouver game was mindnumbing. And when they flash the fact that one shot has been taken the whole game in the middle of the second half, it became maddening.
This team needs a lot of things. At the top of my list are wingers, players that can attack down the line and beat people with pace. Aside from Mosquera, who came as a fullback, there are no players on this roster who can do that. Vancouver could have been exploited down the sides due to putting so many numbers in the middle with the C- tree formation, but there was not much attack down the sides. The one good chance came from breaking them down from the outside in the second half (and including Boli beating his man 1 v 1) and Rasmussen overlapping.) Mosquera should finish that, but who aside from him is actually getting there? The guy has a nose for the goal. LAFC is flush with wingers - surprise - they are scoring in bunches. You also need a dawg center forward. I suspect they have it in Boli.
If you can't get those guys - pacey wingers - then I guess you need to implement a system in which the average player accepts the fact that he can't beat someone one v one and needs a system to get past or through the defense and create scoring opportunities.
I don't mean to bag on systems - I mean, maybe a little - because you do need to all be on the same page - but it is more about the players for me. We just don't have a good roster. We wonder why nothing on the field seems to be cohesive, it's because the roster is pieced together and told to do things it doesn't do naturally well.
Again, front office mistakes catching up to the Timbers. I'm preparing for the worst - irrelevancy in MLS.
The crazy part is that the Timbers are barely losing and almost winning. Credit to a few individuals who are going above and beyond.
Unfortunately, the Timbers have been irrelevant in MLS for a few seasons now. Until consistent, season-long good play and deep playoff runs are a regular occurrence, and not a "hey that came out of nowhere they were dead in the water in July" sort of thing, nobody outside Portland who isn't already a fan has any reason to pay attention to the Timbers at all.
Too true. There probably isn't too much buzz nationally about Seattle coming to town. It used to be must watch. As fans, we've got to dig deep and give more than we thought we had to support the team.
Anyone else thinking this is what Merritt wants. Watch us tank so he can throw it in our face. Or is gio trying to get fired so he can get payed out on his new contract and leave the team. I mean honestly the guy doesn't even wear our colors on the sideline. I was not the biggest fan of porters interviews but he always showed he loved the team and city. He always wore our colors and scarfs. Tbh I didn't think I would be saying this but I would take porter back in a heartbeat over gio at this point.
But Merritt doesn't just tank it for the supporters, he'd be tanking the investment as well. At its baseline, this is an investment, and I don't see him intentionally trying to devalue the organization from a financial standpoint.
I think this is more about mismanagement and the emperor wearing no clothes.
Merritt Paulson paid $35 million for the Timbers to join MLS. The latest Forbes rankings have the Timbers valued at about $650 million. There's no world in which he's "tanking his investment" with anything he does, or in this case, doesn't do.
Fair enough. Let me rephrase. He is a capitalist at heart., and will retain focus on maximizing his investment. I don't think he would intentionally take steps that would devalue the club.
I suppose that could mean doing the bare minimum to retain current value, and maybe that current value has less to do with performance that I'm assuming.
But bad product decreases butts in seats, decreases concessions, and hurts the bottom line. I just can't believe that Paulson wants revenue to drop.
No shots, no goals. The midfield was absent for much of the game until Evander got on the pitch. But there is no offense in this current team form. There is no transition from defense to offense.
If not for our outstanding goalie, this would have been a blowout. Again.
I continue to be disappointed with Evander so far but it just really looks like he's lost or disconnected out there. He's supposed to be running the show and is aware of it, but he's not able to build any possession with his teammates. It feels like he's on a whole different page tactically, and who can blame him? Our off ball runs give him few options and don't move the defense. Our lack of patience and control on the ball give us few chances to pick a team apart methodically.
One bright spot for me was Boli dropping back into midfield. He's technical and was one of the few players combining with Evander in he middle toward the end of the game. He might be our best option at striker right now--Niez again killed flow and offered nothing going forward--but if Boli can run for 60 minutes I'd be very interested to see what he could give us as a makeshift 10 or free center forward with Ikoba starting and staying high as more of a target striker.
They looked to be vastly superior to us though. Their passing had intent, they disrupted our passing all game long and were pressing us for every contested ball (with they mostly won). The eye test don't lie. We suck right now offensively and with no transition game. Long ball to nowhere isn't gonna cut it in this league.
Each week I can't get over how excited I am for "next week's game" only to be let down yet again and again. To try and adjust my piss poor attitude about our Timbers, I'm going to list what I thought were positives. (Emphasis on "what I thought"...)
Good to see Evander back on the pitch. His experience showed as he moved to get into position and advance ball. I sure as hell hope he can keep a positive outlook on what he's gotten himself into with the current team we have. Boli looked good too. Like Evander, it was good to see one of our forwards, getting open, attempting to create some offense and helping on D when needed. I've been skeptical about Ivacic, but after the past two games, I think I'm ready to join the masses and be proud of having him as our primary keeper! Good to see Diego being Diego. I love seeing tackled opponents wondering what hit them as they pick themselves up off the pitch. Mosquera continues to impress me even though he's not in his usual position. I hope this time playing up helps him grow even more. The Zuparic/McGraw combo at CB has really come together. When we're healthy and have Mosquera and Bravo joining the back line, we should be as solid as defenses come! Ikoba got tossed around a bit, but it was good to see him 'return the favor' and take out one of his assailants. As ugly as the game was, I think we made it through without another injury! And finally, I think I saw Niezoda touch the ball once, maybe twice?
I think Gio just needs to have Mabiala train one-on-one with Ikoba and practice being more physical. Dude is 6'3" and 200 lbs. and was just getting pushed around out there.
Glad I stopped watching after the start of the second half. This team isn't worth the time, effort, or money I spend supporting it. It's a Joke at this point. I would take porter back in a heartbeat over having to watch another game of gioball. It's horrendous. I have said it since last year. He needs to go. Enough is enough. I guarantee even porter would come in and get more out of this team. Way more. It's time for gio to go. The excuses are gone. He is a fraud.
I wonder what it would be like bringing Porter back. I like him as a coach and think he's one of the best available talents right now--but he gone through some stubborn phases that were really frustrating and he doesn't have the best track record with young players. I think in some ways, whether he's committed to possession or his later "pragmatic" counter attacking approach, he's maybe a little too structured. He's won with different styles and different squads, but had similar problems down the stretch of his career in Portland and then Columbus. It's been interesting to see what Nancy has achieved so far with a very similar group in Columbus and to hear players talk about having a great amount of clarity in the system, yet simultaneously more freedom to be creative.
I would not be mad about bringing Porter back to Portland to see how his thinking has evolved for his 3rd run in MLS, especially since we'd inevitably get nagbe back, haha. I really do think nagbe could be a useful fit for this squad, the kind of missing piece that ties things together --someone who really takes care of the ball and facilitates could bring more out of guys like Moreno and Yimmi, support Evander, and round out the midfield. Honestly in some ways if you could synthesize porterball and gioball you might really have something. Why can't we break some new ground and have tandem head coaches? It would be entertaining at least to imagine the arguments.
I wouldn't mind porter but I wouldn't want nagbe back. He is getting up there in age and it's only a matter of time before he declines. I would love to see what porter could do with a young team. But I would go for others first to see what is available.
Truly abysmal. Damnable waste of an evening.
Outside of our defensive 18 we were a void in a vacuum in deep space. Very disappointing performance.
Just play Ivacic against Seattle. Or maybe just send only Gio out of the locker room with a literal white flag instead of the figurative one he ran out with today.
Pathetic.
I’ve been fairly defensive of the team so far this year. But if they aren’t going to make Vancouver defend at all, I’m not going to either.
Gio has no idea what he's doing. He needs to go.
Niezgoda shouldn't be playing at all.
The players have skills but Gio can't figure out how to use them.
I love Moreno but he's been out of it the last few games and not sure why. I think he's one of the best in the league but something is not working with him.
Crime fighter McGraw is a Boss!
Mosquera is the real deal and i hope we keep him for awhile- he missed the shot but he's so good.
Boli and Evander look like they'll team up nice.
I'm gonna stop there with the players.
Terrible game but we have the skills if someone can get them out.
No more reactive defending.
You forgot to mention Bravo. I don't hate Rasmussen but please, why in hell start him over Bravo. That alone warrants Gio getting the boot.
I really like Bravo, he's way better than Rassy, but heard he was hurt....I dunno
According to the Oregonian beat writer it was a coaches decision, not an injury.
That was from his source from the team (whoever that is). Gio said Bravo had hamstring tightness and was kept out for precautionary reasons, not a coaches decision
Thanks for the clarity. Then a bad decision I do believe
Bravo's my favorite player on this team. He's gutsy, aggressive, and skillful. Always plays hard and most always makes the smart pass. Good passer into the box. If we had a complete team made up of players like him we'd be top shelf. Yes, I read that he may have a "tight hammy". I wonder if that's like Gio saying Ivacic was hurt when he wasn't (according to Ivacic). Players like these need to be shown they are valued. I don't value Gio.
I will almost always trust a coach over a player when regarding the health of said player. The player will almost always say they are healthy because they want to play. The coach isn’t as biased and will be more objective about it. I’m sure Bravo will be fine
Simply put, worst game of the year. There was no connection between the players, I don’t know if I saw more than 4 passes connect all game long. It’s good to have Evander back, but he needs to be on the ball a lot more. Moreno just hasn’t shown up this year, and I’m a big fan of his. The team has to get things together, or next weekend is going to be U G L Y!
If Bravo’s not injured, I can’t fathom why Rasmussen is starting.
But that’s just a quibble. The team looks like a mess. Not much else to say.
Haters are gonna hate, but we missed Williamson out there in transition and on the attack. We had no one steering the ship. Evander looked frustrated once he finally came on. And then suddenly we had three forwards and no midfield connecting them. Everything was just a shambles.
All these injuries are really frustrating. Why aren’t the training and physio staff under some fire. It’s their job to keep the players in a condition that staves off niggling injuries which lead to long term injuries.
Completely agree. I don’t know the business side of soccer at all, but this is the second season in a row where we’ve been incredibly limited due to a long injury list. Seems like it would make sense to completely gut the med staff and start over with a fresh point of view there…
IIRC the team did a major overhaul of the training staff sometime around Porter's last year following a similar rash of injuries. I'd have to go back and look but it seems like we've had this conversation before. I wonder if the earlier start to the season and colder than normal spring for us have had any impact.
Are there any lights on in Timbers' offices? Anyone home? I don't know who is, or can be, making decisions at this point; is Paulson sulking alone in his room? Does Grabavoy have any authority? The Timbers seem like a ghost ship adrift on a big ocean, and the product on the field must be a reflection of the overall state of the franchise.
This isn't EPL. Given MLS roster rules there are literally three things that Merritt can do right now:
1.) Fire Gio. New coach will be new to the team and still have the same roster and injuries to deal with and have zero experience with the team.
2.) Get rid of one and only one player and replace them. Natural options are Niezgoda or Blanco. One more player is not fixing this team on any kind of timescale that salvages this season. Putting Blanco on the SEI list gets you potentially two players but also tells potential players that you will throw them under the bus.
3.) Fire Ned. New GM inherents the same mess and has the same restrictions as Ned.
There is no moving any of the other players because who would take them? He can probably move Mosquera, Williamson (now on the cheap b/c his old injury history is now a pervasive injury history and his potential from a few years ago is now "he is an ok MLS starter") , Moreno (who would've been a hot commodity before this season but now has serious question marks around him), or Ivacic but that's it. Would a replacement at the same investment level be better?
"1.) Fire Gio. New coach will be new to the team and still have the same roster and injuries to deal with and have zero experience with the team."
Is this supposed to be a reason to keep Gio? If so, this doesn't do what you want it to do.
It's like you have never watched any league outside of mls, including the one you first started this post with. Coaches get fired all the time and coaches inherit injured squads or poor squads all the time. Sometimes a coach comes in and makes a big impact. Look at crystal palace for instance. Under Viera they were stagnant and a bottom dwelling team struggling to stay up in the league. They couldn't score and were leaking goals. Now under their new manager Roy hodgson they have scored 7 goals in two games. Everyone blamed the roster but it was obviously that Viera was not coaching them in a way that got the best out of the roster. Roy has so far.
Their are a lot of examples of this in sports. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't but the coach should always be the first to take responsibility and lose their job. (he would still get paid out either way.) After you bring in a new coach you can wait and see what improvements happen and get a fresh perspective from that coach on the roster. Example is 2013. We got a new coach (porter) and they overhauled the roster. That year was the best year we had in mls, finishing 3rd in the league and top in the west.
It has been gone over at nauseating degrees on here of why people have lost faith in gio. Look at a team like bayern. They moved on from nagelsman not because they weren't doing well but because they didn't like the brand identity that was being played under nagelsman. They demanded a good product on the field, as well as a winning team. Now would I say myself or others demand we win every game like bayern.....no. however when you watch as much soccer as I have, you notice differences in teams. You start to see patterns among winning teams and losing teams. Style, mentality, cohesion, ect. Just like you notice a player's strengths and weaknesses and how it correlates to their position.
People can pretend like gio hasn't lost the locker room but our play tells 1 of 2 stories. Either he has lost the locker room or he is doing a poor job of coaching. This isn't past years where we were unlucky in results. Playing well but finding ways to lose. This goes way beyond that. This is a team that has no idea what they are supposed to be doing. That is 100% on the coach. That is literally their job. To come up with a game plan against the opposition and then go over it in practice with the team. Tell them how to exploit the other teams weaknesses. That's a coaches job. This isn't us just not getting the bounces or being unlucky which happened a lot under porter. I don't know how many times we heard his say "we were the better team.....but." and most times I would agree with that statement. This team not only this year but last year, was extremely poor. Not just to start the year but throughout the year. Missing the playoffs and playing poorly with a full strength squad put gio on. Short leash this year and to start this year we are not only bad but we are the worst Timbers team I have ever seen. So our spending and quality of players have gone up but we are playing worse than we ever have. You can blame it on whatever you want, but when a team of professional athletes go 45 minutes without creating 1 shot, that's when you have to say "bye gio." He has either lost it or has lost the team.
"Putting Blanco on the SEI list gets you potentially two players but also tells potential players that you will throw them under the bus."
I don't think it does, though. If a player is unfit to play, that player shouldn't occupy a roster spot, and the SEI list is a natural place to park him while he's still under contract. Buying out his contract and cutting him loose right now would be more of a throw-him-under-the-bus scenario.
I think your options are actually listed in the correct order. As you note, no new GM would be able to magically/quickly fix the shitshow that GW left behind, and I think Ned can be really good at the GM job once the big salaries are off the books next season. I would be, and I hope Ned is, frantically looking for a trade partner for Niezgoda, even if the trade results in the Timbers taking a huge loss on their investment. The whole "trade anyone who has value" thing happened again over the winter when Bill left, and the Timbers cannot afford, in a playing sense, to lose any more talent at this point.
This team is in one hell of a messy spot right now, and there are no easy fixes, but a new coach might at least be able to install some sort of coherence and system with the players that are here, and stop the bleeding until the more structural work of overhauling the roster can get under way in earnest.
Gio is in the first year of a three-year contract. He’s not going anywhere because the FO won’t buy him out. And who would replace him?
I mean, it's not like there are no coaches around. There will always be someone who is up for a challenge like this as long as the money is right.
And how are you so sure the FO 'won't buy him out'? If they lose 5-0 this coming weekend, on the heels of several other dispiriting results, it becomes less a question of "will they buy him out" and more a question of "how long until they do". The way the team is going now is unsustainable, and preserving the status quo will just make it worse.
If MP truly does want this team to rot, nothing will happen; if he wants to actually make the team better, he can easily afford a buyout and a new coach contract that will probably require more in salary than it would have this time last season.
Sure there are coaches around. But early in the season are they the best available? The FO has an inexperienced CEO and GM who is doing double duty as scouting director. T2 is a train wreck and the academy is producing far fewer MLS-caliber players, much less those with a future in Europe. The organization is way behind many clubs and has been. Paulson is ultimately to blame, and does anyone think he will change?
Maybe it is even more than want. Can MP actually make the right moves, even if he wanted to?
For example: Signing Gio to a three-year contract - This is turning into an anchor weight around the franchise. He needs to go, but I doubt MP would or could hire a name and or an up and comer coach beyond someone from the USL. Also, running a boys club front office for so many years stifled progressive thought and kept the team from keeping pace with what the rest of the league was doing.
The play on the field is the byproduct of a shoddy front office that comes from the top - MP. He should be the first to go so Portland can be proud of its team again.
Seems like a long way of saying, "do nothing".
Maybe not?
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisRifer/status/1645197824211156993
It's a good question Rifer is asking. Six months later and no one has been found to take Ned's place?
I think MP has dug a pretty big hole for himself here. He's got to prove he's going to be hands off like he promised and that's going to take a while. How many times did he pledge to get off Twitter only to jump back on a few months later?
"dug a pretty big hole for himself" implies that MP cares enough about the Timbers that he's just making inadvertent mistakes that he will then fix once he recognizes they've been made.
I believe, as others have also said, that MP's actually allowing the Timbers to stagnate like this as a petulant, childish, "you want to see what this team looks like when I don't care? Check this out!" reaction to the myriad controversies of the last several years. He's a spoiled rich kid who was given a toy. The batteries started to sputter on his toy, and rather than replacing the batteries, he's blaming the toy for being defective, and letting his toy rot until he gets a new one.
I don't believe the way the Timbers are being run now is the result of a good faith effort to make the team better. I wish Merritt would just sell up, cash in, and let someone run the team who wants the team to be good again, because I have lost what little faith I ever had in MP (I was never a huge fan, even before all the shit) as an effective steward of the Timbers.
I guess I'm just trying to speak facts here instead of conjecture. It may be very true he's acting like a petulant rich kid that was gifted a toy (and, yes he absolutely needs to cash out). I honestly wouldn't be surprised but have no proof.
My point is this, though. Would you apply for a job (let's pretend it's a small promotion with a little better pay) with Peregrine sports? Not sure I would. When PTFC offered Valeri a TAM contract instead of a DP for 2020, I seem to remember part of that included a FO spot when he hung up the boots. Why's he working for apple TV now? He's a MLS legend that could be great in that position.
I have no proof either, I'm just speculating based on the fact that the Timbers are playing like hot garbage right now, have done so for the last probably 25-30 games or so, and show no signs of improvement or change at all. In many cases, that's plenty to cost a coach their job, but not here.
"Would you apply for a job (let's pretend it's a small promotion with a little better pay) with Peregrine sports? "
I mean, new coaches and players come to underperforming/struggling teams all the time, right? I'm not quite sure that Portland is such an extreme outlier that people would avoid it like a nuclear waste disposal site. Lots of athletes and coaches like the challenge of turning a bad situation around.
The challenges facing the Timbers aren't unique. look at RSL for a recent example, and that's just in MLS - other teams in other leagues have gone through ownership disinterest and underperforming roster challenges as well. Given enough incentive, I don't see it as impossible that a new coach would want to come here and see if they could make their mark.
Defend Gio. Because there's literally no way I can. This was inexcusably bad. Gio had a reasonably strong lineup to choose from, and we got...that.
The one advantage to probably getting boatraced by Seattle next week is that that will make it hard to defend him having a job here, and easier for Ned to fire him.
Like with most things to get corrected, things have to hit rock bottom first. I think your right that once the Timbers get destroyed at home by their arch rivals, then that will hopefully start the process of truly correcting all the problems this team has. This season's Timbers are already a bottom of the table team and that isn't going to change until the rebuilding starts and it might as well start now. Use the rest of this season for that.
Bravo had hamstring tightness, which is why he didn’t play.
I’m looking forward to having players back because we actually had some competent sequences of play with Evander and Boli on the field. Ayala had some nice plays. Both of them look very good. But for now? There was no team out there, just a bunch of individuals. We were getting swarmed every time we got the ball. Gutierrez was lost in the midfield, too little fault of his own, it’s not at all his position and just his third career MLS start.
Why Jaro came on instead of Nathan I will never know. We ended with Boli and Nathan playing on the wings... a sign of where our squad is at health-wise. I still believe this team may do something with actual healthy players, but for now it is rough
Health and available talent level are limiting factors. Tonight coaching was as well. If these guys are on an MLS roster, coach needs to come up with some sort of plan that at least gives us a plausible shot at creating a single goddam chance. Did we touch the ball in Vancouver's box in the first half?
Usually my tone is a bit more like yours. I'm just really sour on this showing.
I do think Boli looks promising. He can be on the ball in a way Goda can't.
We're reduced to picking over scraps after the feast is over. This individual player did this or that. It's like watching T2 and seeing who might make it to the next level. It is understandable in that it has been a rotating cast of characters the entire season, so the expectation that they look like a well oiled machine is unreasonable. I agree there are some bright spots, but this is tough waking up to the fact that this team can't compete.
A few thoughts:
-You mess with Ikoba you bruise your shoulder
-Whenever Rasmussen plays Timbers seem to play it safe and never try to play out of the back. It makes for a long night.
-Timbers were overrun in the midfield. Playing against a 4-3-2-1, maybe overload a side and go for the big switch. Too many times there were passes to a lone midfielder in the middle and he would get swarmed and lose it.
-It always seems to be an ugly game against Vancouver
-Nice to see Evander back and Boli I give a thumbs up.
-Where would the Ts be without Chara?
Where would the Timbers be without Ivacic?
Honestly, and I love Ivacic, but I'd love him to miss a few games so the real Timbers team can be revealed. They're mostly horrible, and Ivacic almost singlehandedly makes them look mediocre with his acrobatic saves and amazing reflexes. But let's give Hunter Sulte a run of games* and then they can show everyone the unvarnished truth of what this team is.
*I am 100% kidding to make a point I do not want this
I would argue that even Bingham had a really good start to the season and papered over the issues. With slightly less competent goalkeeping we wouldn't even have the one win in the opener, probably with 2 or 3 points total and either tied for last in the league or in sole possession.
Having no Bravo or Williamson on the field made playing out of the back an impossible task. Mosquera was the only one who was able to relieve pressure a little, but he passed it to someone else who would then give the ball away. I’m hoping Ayala can start next game, we desperately need him
Generally a 4-3-2-1 is very much a defensive posture, looking to counter and steal a goal or two. We couldn't hold the ball against it and were wasteful. We were offensively dominated by a defensive mindset team. Crazy.
With the strength of that formation in the middle, the Ts shoulda attacked outside all day long, but they couldn't or wouldn't. Too many long balls and hope for a good bounce. It was terrible.
To your point, Vancouver hit that big switch in transition time and time again. It kept Portland on the back foot giving up a zillion corners. And we're forgetting to discuss that Vancouver had 2 goals called back! This could have been worse. It looked like the 3rd should have been called back for ball out of play as well, but at that point it's reeeeally hard to argue the Timbers didn't deserve to be losing.
Hard to watch, both literally and figuratively. First, I spent the first 35 minutes trying to get Apple TV to let me watch this "free" game. It wanted me to activate through a link to apple.com, first it worked but when I logged in it said my password was wrong (it wasn't I set it up on Friday after spending an hour with Apple support trying to get my existing account working, ultimately they said to create a brand new gmail account purely for this since my existing one doesn't work and they can't say why). Then when I tried logging on directly on my TV it said my account is locked for security reasons, then I logged on with my PC and it said my password was wrong. I reset it again, and could watch the game on my laptop or phone. Went back to TV and tried activating again, but this time it said the code it gave me was invalid. I reset and tried again 5-6 times. Ultimately I just typed in my login and password using the remote and got to start the game. I was able to skip the 30 minutes of them talking about Seattle and went straight to watching a low quality feed of the game. My son said the quality and graphics made it looks like a 10 year old FIFA game.
Then I got the pleasure of watching the team play another game of clueless, listless, uninspired, confused soccer. I wondered what exactly was Gio's pre-game plan he gave the team and whether they were failing at it or succeeding? Still haven't paid for this Apple crap product, and the team isn't really inspiring me to do so.
Expectations ruined this for me. If this game followed the Galaxy game against a rested Whitecaps team on the road I wouldn’t be surprised at how pathetic the Timbers played. But the Dallas game looked like the team was making some progress. Add to that the Whitecaps had a midweek game and might be a little tired/flat/rotated and aren’t a great team so I thought the Timbers had an even chance at points in this game. In the first half I thought the plan was to let the kids play (Guittierez, Rasmussen, Ikoba), keep a compact defense and wear them down a little and then bring in some subs and a coherent attack in the second half. But then the attack in the second half wasn’t any better and they looked slow to react and lethargic the whole game. I know there are injuries and people playing out of position but that team looked lost.
Tip of the hat to Vancouver. They got beat midweek and came out and played hard. They could smell a chance at points and were determined to get them. Sartini had them motivated. They went after loose balls and switched to defense immediately when they lost possession winning the ball back several times. I don’t mean to offend fellow Timbers fans but I admire the grit.
After starting the season with some optimism and then seeing some good signs in Dallas I am back to trying to take some positives out of bad games (Ivacic looks good, Zach is a legit starter, we are developing some players, Chara had some tackles, Mosquera was a good pickup).
Last thought - if Bravo wasn’t fit to play why was he on the bench? I guess he could play in an emergency? But wouldn’t that risk making the injury worse?
I wondered the same thing about Bravo. Did he hurt himself on the bus to the stadium?
The starting lineup was met with some despair when I saw it. Ikoba was fine, but the midfield was a lot of strange choices. Made up of "returning from major injury" (Asprilla), Inexperienced guy who is OK but not MLS starting quality (Gutierez), out of position but maybe it will work (Mosquera), woefully ineffective all season long thus far (Moreno) with Chara who is a legend but can't do it all at 37. It was chaotic and disorganized, lots of 1 on 1 play and lots of just bad passing and lack of movement. Unfortunately bringing on subs didn't help much - they did find rhythm a bit later in the game and strung together a few passes, but nothing incisive enough to even get 1 shot on goal in 98 minutes. That is pretty sad, even worse than I would expect - but I didn't expect to win this one, especially after I saw the starters - not just the midfield chaos but two outside backs who are backups.
I don't think there is much to be learned from this game other than we have some significant offensive problems and we already knew that.
What midfield would you have started? Our only central midfielder that isn't coming off injury and on limited minutes was Chara. Our only outside midfielder/winger that isn't coming off injury and on limited minutes were Gutierrez and Moreno. That is literally it... Asprilla, Yimmi, Paredes, Williamson, Ayala, Loria, and Blanco are coming back or out.
Then why play asprilla from the start. Why not play a 4-4-2 with
Ikoba Nathan up top. Then play Gutierrez, chara, Moreno, masquera in the midfield. With a backline of Rasmussen, zuparic, Mcgraw, miller.
If you do this and the direction to Ikoba and Nathan is primarily high press and look to counter, the midfield of 4 to stay compact and defend/look to counter would not have been worse. We were SOOOO narrow when we had the ball - just running 1vX into the teeth of the defense.
my idea behind the 4-4-2 was kinda what you were saying above. We are deficient in some positions. Primarily a player that can dictate tempo. Outside of Evander or Williamson I don't think anyone on this team can play as a 10. They can't hold on to the ball or control the tempo of the attack.
In a 4-4-2 you essentially are playing 8 players in front of the ball. This is highly effective when you know you are going to lose the possession battle. It also slows down the build up but keeps your team from being under constant pressure. It forces the other team to look for space to attack unlike a 4-3-3 that can leave teams exposed.
4-3-3 works if you plan to play a high tempo or possession based game. Keeping your forwards higher up the field for quick transitions to goal off turnovers up field. It also helps put pressure higher up the field. That's the whole point of the 4-3-3. It's either effective when controlling possession or when pressing to create turnovers in the oppositions own half.
But here is the problem with that.
1) we are terrible at pressing as a collective unit. So we rarely create turnovers up field.
2) if you want to play a possession based 4-3-3 you have to either have a team that understands and executes attacking patterns to a high level or you have to have wingers that can go 1v1 and pull defenders like a rubber band. We don't do either very well. And we don't have those kind of wingers.
Conclusion: 4-3-3 is not our best option. Especially since Moreno has regressed and yimmi has been out. 4-3-3 shouldn't even be in the cards right now.
A 4-2-3-1 is a good mid block formation. But that 10 spot is very important to create attacking opportunities. And even more important are the 2 guys sitting behind that 10. Those 2 need to be very good at shielding the backline and quick to jump on turnovers when they happen. Winning the ball back. Having those 2 behind that mid 3 essentially cuts the field in half vertical. Each player responsible for jumping on turnovers and getting the ball back. That's why the chara and Will Johnson Era was so fun to watch. Both were quick to jump on those turnovers. Winning the ball back quickly. It was like having two junkyard dogs infront of our back 4.
For most of this year when we played a 4-2-3-1 it was eryk next to chara. Does that honestly sound like something eryk is strong at. Reading potential turnovers and closing down the space? Winning the ball back? I would say no. As a matter of fact HELL NO! so what happens when you play a 4-2-3-1 and a turnover happens but you realistically only have one defense minded player behind that midfield 3? Especially when they are higher up the field trying to attack. You leave a 37 year old chara who is obviously regressing to cover the field horizontally. He can't do that anymore. Eryk ends up pushing into the attack and it leaves all the space behind him for chara to cover. That's why Paredes is a better partner. He stays deeper to cut the field in half and is very good at choosing the right moments to attack. Like Will Johnson was. How many times did will run into the box from a deep run to score or assist. It was a side of his game that was very underrated. Along with just how good he was at winning the 50/50 balls. Chara hadnt had a partner like that since WJ. Paredes is the closest to it and ayala is still a question mark. So again a 4-2-3-1 with anyone but Paredes next to chara is a bad idea.
Again the 4-4-2 based on our players available and their talents is the best formation right now. Stay in a mid to low block. Stay disciplined and compact. Force teams to break us down. Then spring counters with Nathan and ikoba or frank. Ikoba and frank have size for hold up and Nathan as speed to get in behind. With so many back to commit to defending, you need 2 strikers up top so they can play off each other on a fast break. Otherwise if you sit deeper you just leave your striker on an island. Until everyone is match fit it has to be a 4-4-2.
It all depends on who is available of course. We have a very big mismatch of players.
I agree with everything here. 4-4-2 is simple and something everyone understands, too.
When the heck is Paredes getting back?! At some point when there is a little more health, I wouldn't mind seeing this:
4-2-3-1:
.....................Boli....
Moreno ..... Evander ..... Mosquera
............DC ..............Paredes........
Bravo .... Zup ..... McGraw ......Miller (gulp)
I'd shop Williamson around the league and see if I could get a winger (Moreno could fill in for Evander) . or a cheap defensive midfielder type and a winger.
Or, just say screw it. Until we lose the contracts of Blanco, Niezgoda, we're just treading water and sinking fast. Yimmi is deadweight for me too. He is not effective offensively.
Yimmi was one of our most productive offensive players last year, I’d much rather have him play on the wing than have Miller play. Mosquera can do a job at winger but I think he’s better as a fullback
My bad (wording). I said poor choices, but we were choice restricted. You are correct that he didn't have much other choice if committed to a 4-3-3 and playing a defender in the midfield and 2 midfielders at forward positions. I would argue what we were really playing was a 4-1-4-1, but the argument is a semantic formation one. The problem with it, no matter how you slice it is that there was no organizer / CAM.
I honestly think we Gio and staff were hoping for a 0-0 draw. We have the worst xG in the league and even before this game take the lowest shots / 90 minutes in the entirety of MLS. This lineup had no way to do better and it did worse, in fact. The available players and options had no ability to move the ball through the midfield, organize counters or do much other than 1vX hero ball. It didn't work because we conceded a goal (and honestly probably should have conceded even more if we are being fair about the run of play) and we are a team who is offensively anemic without a strong Valeri type orchestrateor. Since Valeri's fall from his best, we have tried to paper that over with Blanco or Y. Chara, now have Evander who is going to take time still to really make the position his own and has no backup (I wouldn't really even call Y. Chara a missing backup - CAM wasn't his strong suit when we used him there). Williamson's style helps but he isn't a classic CAM either.
I didn't think we were going to win this game starting a month ago and nothing changed right up to kickoff, was worse odds even without Williamson.
I don't think we were trying to win, hoping for a 0-0 draw or at least limiting the embarrassment in a loss (mission accomplished on the scoreline, but not the game / stat lines - we got crushed). We are just trying to play out the injuries but will be in such a deep hole that I don't think everyone being back and available in June/July/August will help and we will miss the playoffs by a wide margin. A rebuilding year marred / limited even further by way too many injured players. My only hope is that this doesn't stunt the growth of the core starting players for 2024, 25, 26 which won't include most of the guys who started Saturday.
It's no fun when the season is already over and it's still raining hard. It'd be nice if the games had some offense at least for entertainment purposes. The number of fouls and turnovers in the Vancouver game was mindnumbing. And when they flash the fact that one shot has been taken the whole game in the middle of the second half, it became maddening.
This team needs a lot of things. At the top of my list are wingers, players that can attack down the line and beat people with pace. Aside from Mosquera, who came as a fullback, there are no players on this roster who can do that. Vancouver could have been exploited down the sides due to putting so many numbers in the middle with the C- tree formation, but there was not much attack down the sides. The one good chance came from breaking them down from the outside in the second half (and including Boli beating his man 1 v 1) and Rasmussen overlapping.) Mosquera should finish that, but who aside from him is actually getting there? The guy has a nose for the goal. LAFC is flush with wingers - surprise - they are scoring in bunches. You also need a dawg center forward. I suspect they have it in Boli.
If you can't get those guys - pacey wingers - then I guess you need to implement a system in which the average player accepts the fact that he can't beat someone one v one and needs a system to get past or through the defense and create scoring opportunities.
I don't mean to bag on systems - I mean, maybe a little - because you do need to all be on the same page - but it is more about the players for me. We just don't have a good roster. We wonder why nothing on the field seems to be cohesive, it's because the roster is pieced together and told to do things it doesn't do naturally well.
Again, front office mistakes catching up to the Timbers. I'm preparing for the worst - irrelevancy in MLS.
The crazy part is that the Timbers are barely losing and almost winning. Credit to a few individuals who are going above and beyond.
Unfortunately, the Timbers have been irrelevant in MLS for a few seasons now. Until consistent, season-long good play and deep playoff runs are a regular occurrence, and not a "hey that came out of nowhere they were dead in the water in July" sort of thing, nobody outside Portland who isn't already a fan has any reason to pay attention to the Timbers at all.
Too true. There probably isn't too much buzz nationally about Seattle coming to town. It used to be must watch. As fans, we've got to dig deep and give more than we thought we had to support the team.
Anyone else thinking this is what Merritt wants. Watch us tank so he can throw it in our face. Or is gio trying to get fired so he can get payed out on his new contract and leave the team. I mean honestly the guy doesn't even wear our colors on the sideline. I was not the biggest fan of porters interviews but he always showed he loved the team and city. He always wore our colors and scarfs. Tbh I didn't think I would be saying this but I would take porter back in a heartbeat over gio at this point.
But Merritt doesn't just tank it for the supporters, he'd be tanking the investment as well. At its baseline, this is an investment, and I don't see him intentionally trying to devalue the organization from a financial standpoint.
I think this is more about mismanagement and the emperor wearing no clothes.
Merritt Paulson paid $35 million for the Timbers to join MLS. The latest Forbes rankings have the Timbers valued at about $650 million. There's no world in which he's "tanking his investment" with anything he does, or in this case, doesn't do.
Fair enough. Let me rephrase. He is a capitalist at heart., and will retain focus on maximizing his investment. I don't think he would intentionally take steps that would devalue the club.
I suppose that could mean doing the bare minimum to retain current value, and maybe that current value has less to do with performance that I'm assuming.
But bad product decreases butts in seats, decreases concessions, and hurts the bottom line. I just can't believe that Paulson wants revenue to drop.
I keep getting the feeling that there is a "fix" in. Not like a gambling-cheat fix, but a grudge fix.
No shots, no goals. The midfield was absent for much of the game until Evander got on the pitch. But there is no offense in this current team form. There is no transition from defense to offense.
If not for our outstanding goalie, this would have been a blowout. Again.
I continue to be disappointed with Evander so far but it just really looks like he's lost or disconnected out there. He's supposed to be running the show and is aware of it, but he's not able to build any possession with his teammates. It feels like he's on a whole different page tactically, and who can blame him? Our off ball runs give him few options and don't move the defense. Our lack of patience and control on the ball give us few chances to pick a team apart methodically.
One bright spot for me was Boli dropping back into midfield. He's technical and was one of the few players combining with Evander in he middle toward the end of the game. He might be our best option at striker right now--Niez again killed flow and offered nothing going forward--but if Boli can run for 60 minutes I'd be very interested to see what he could give us as a makeshift 10 or free center forward with Ikoba starting and staying high as more of a target striker.
And against a pretty ragtag Vancouver squad, no less.
They looked to be vastly superior to us though. Their passing had intent, they disrupted our passing all game long and were pressing us for every contested ball (with they mostly won). The eye test don't lie. We suck right now offensively and with no transition game. Long ball to nowhere isn't gonna cut it in this league.
Yep, that’s my point as well.
This game was so bad I almost committed a crime in Canada so I would never be tempted to go back and watch another game there again.
Each week I can't get over how excited I am for "next week's game" only to be let down yet again and again. To try and adjust my piss poor attitude about our Timbers, I'm going to list what I thought were positives. (Emphasis on "what I thought"...)
Good to see Evander back on the pitch. His experience showed as he moved to get into position and advance ball. I sure as hell hope he can keep a positive outlook on what he's gotten himself into with the current team we have. Boli looked good too. Like Evander, it was good to see one of our forwards, getting open, attempting to create some offense and helping on D when needed. I've been skeptical about Ivacic, but after the past two games, I think I'm ready to join the masses and be proud of having him as our primary keeper! Good to see Diego being Diego. I love seeing tackled opponents wondering what hit them as they pick themselves up off the pitch. Mosquera continues to impress me even though he's not in his usual position. I hope this time playing up helps him grow even more. The Zuparic/McGraw combo at CB has really come together. When we're healthy and have Mosquera and Bravo joining the back line, we should be as solid as defenses come! Ikoba got tossed around a bit, but it was good to see him 'return the favor' and take out one of his assailants. As ugly as the game was, I think we made it through without another injury! And finally, I think I saw Niezoda touch the ball once, maybe twice?
Niezgoda won a header!
I think Gio just needs to have Mabiala train one-on-one with Ikoba and practice being more physical. Dude is 6'3" and 200 lbs. and was just getting pushed around out there.
Glad I stopped watching after the start of the second half. This team isn't worth the time, effort, or money I spend supporting it. It's a Joke at this point. I would take porter back in a heartbeat over having to watch another game of gioball. It's horrendous. I have said it since last year. He needs to go. Enough is enough. I guarantee even porter would come in and get more out of this team. Way more. It's time for gio to go. The excuses are gone. He is a fraud.
I wonder what it would be like bringing Porter back. I like him as a coach and think he's one of the best available talents right now--but he gone through some stubborn phases that were really frustrating and he doesn't have the best track record with young players. I think in some ways, whether he's committed to possession or his later "pragmatic" counter attacking approach, he's maybe a little too structured. He's won with different styles and different squads, but had similar problems down the stretch of his career in Portland and then Columbus. It's been interesting to see what Nancy has achieved so far with a very similar group in Columbus and to hear players talk about having a great amount of clarity in the system, yet simultaneously more freedom to be creative.
I would not be mad about bringing Porter back to Portland to see how his thinking has evolved for his 3rd run in MLS, especially since we'd inevitably get nagbe back, haha. I really do think nagbe could be a useful fit for this squad, the kind of missing piece that ties things together --someone who really takes care of the ball and facilitates could bring more out of guys like Moreno and Yimmi, support Evander, and round out the midfield. Honestly in some ways if you could synthesize porterball and gioball you might really have something. Why can't we break some new ground and have tandem head coaches? It would be entertaining at least to imagine the arguments.
I wouldn't mind porter but I wouldn't want nagbe back. He is getting up there in age and it's only a matter of time before he declines. I would love to see what porter could do with a young team. But I would go for others first to see what is available.