Gio per the Oregonian, “I thought we managed the game very well in the first half,” Timbers coach Giovanni Savarese said. “I think at the end of the half we could’ve been up 3-1. We were in control even though we didn’t have a lot of the ball. We had organization in the back line. We just had to continue to carry on in the second half the same idea. Three minutes of distraction, and the game changed completely. ... We had control of the match for the majority of the game.”
Seriously, what game was he watching? Gio has to go.
I had been firmly in the defend Gio camp. After watching this? I can’t anymore. Regretting season ticket purchase. The team should be ashamed of what they are putting on the pitch. Not that they will but MP should offer fans a refund. Frankly there is no way I renew next year because this front office can’t be trusted.
Resigning Blanco was a mistake. I knew it when they did it. You can’t have your DP’s as a back up striker you hardly use. A right wing who is a solid TAM player, and a guy you are playing in a new position and expect to be competitive in this league. Individually I like the Timbers talent but they need a system. And it isn’t what they are playing now.
Well, I love going to PP and to watch soccer, so big double win there for me. But when I find myself saying "I have so much laundry to do, maybe I will just skip the game" or am willing find a friend to give the tickets to becuase I feel "too busy" I think that indicates a problem. His style of play is do absolutely boring to watch and then to lose while watching boring soccer leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So yes, I end up skipping games just becuase its not worth my time to go watch a boring game and lose. If we went out and played an interesting style of play but lost then so be it they were the better team on the day; I can live with that. But I hate being bored by crappy soccer.
I mean, I will say he's not wrong about being up at the half - game management aside, which of course wasn't great, Boli could have had a hat trick by the half.
I agree with him for the first 30 minutes until their goal. They had nothing going forward, their attack was completely toothless. Yes we barely had the ball but we were bottling them very effectively. We looked dangerous on the counter and should’ve had another goal. However once momentum shifted, we lost control. Game became more open and they exploited that
It's true we were managing the match well in those 30 minutes, but boy what an ugly way to play. Most of the time we had all 11 players in our defensive third. Talk about parking the bus!
The fact is though, you can't play defense and defense and defense and expect to continue to play defense and give up few chances. Our offense is so bad (Boli, Asprilla, and even Moreno - because he plays out of position) that eventually your defense gets worn down. That said, yes, I agree that Mabiala has worn out his expiration date. I said that after the Atlanta final game in 2018 when he lolligagged his way up tyhe field and kept Josef Martinez onside.
Literally just the singular statistic of Possession negates his statement. You can't claim to have been fully in control of the match for the majority of the game if you were outpaced on possession 63% to 37%. They had 1.7 times as much possession as we did. That's not being in control. I watched the first half and didn't compelled to watch the second. If that was the better half, that says a lot.
A couple more key stats:
Outshot 15 to 9
Bested in shots on goal, 7 to 3
Bested in corners at 8 to 1
And just demolished on crosses at 21 to 5
Where, exactly, were they in control?
I agree with you that Gio is past his expiration date, to borrow some language from the author.
I mean, what else is there to say that hasn't been said? Gio's past it. He needs to go. This team isn't playing with any spark, creativity, or energy - and the team has most of the starters back, so that's not an excuse any more.
This was always going to be a rough season, with the roster what it is and with very little ability to change it, but for the love of all that's holy Gio isn't helping things. The Gio era needs to end, tomorrow.
So it seems to me the Timbers have a question to ask of themselves at this point in their MLS evolution. They - top to bottom - need to ask themselves "who do we want to be as an organization?"
Do the Timbers want to be the team that regularly beats Seattle and claims local bragging rights and accomplishes nothing else? Or do the Timbers want to be a team that is in the Supporters' Shield conversation every season, and is a consistently good team that other teams legitimately do not want to face, at any time? Because it sure seems like the Timbers are opting for the former, and they're increasingly being lapped by much newer teams that have a clearer idea of where they want to go.
I'm tired of the Timbers coasting on the banked goodwill/nostalgia of "here's a bunch of really nice players and oh yeah double post and 2015 and we always beat Seattle!"
That's not good enough, and the entire org should want more from and for the team than that. If Portland really wants to be "Soccer City, USA", they need to earn that title through their play and not coast on the nostalgia of the 1970's to make that claim. Other teams, newer teams, are increasingly far more relevant in the national soccer conversation than the Timbers are, and that should motivate every single Timbers employee to make things better, because nothing we're seeing now is remotely good enough.
For a $48 pizza at Providence Park, the least they could do is put out a team that scores more than one goal in three games and doesn't routinely concede in the 94'.
But for the ownership and their FO minions these days, it really seems to be more about the pizza.
Agreed. And that's been especially apparent this season. I moved from Oregon to Ohio in mid-March. Not even having the option to visit the stadium, and having to stay up late for matches, and routinely watching other matches earlier in the day—it's really apparent that other clubs, even other legacy clubs, are putting a better and better product on the field with an actual on-field identity. I've never followed east coast teams closely, but I've been watching a lot of Columbus Crew, Cincinnati FC, Philadelphia Union, and NE Revolution games lately. They each have an identity and a drive. And they're all playing good football this year. It's hard to switch over to the late games and see performances like we're consistently getting from the Timbers. As pointed out in this article, it feels like players aren't even making an effort. And that's super hard to watch.
And it's instructive to note that Cincinnati's identity and drive come after three years of being almost literally the worst team in MLS history. A new coach, new coaching staff, and a better way of identifying talent, along with a new way of playing, has made all the difference for them.
And their fans have been there, loud and passionate, the whole time. I'm happy for them, inasmuch as I really don't care about FC Cincinnati overall.
I have been asking myself that for years. It seems like they are in the mediocrity is good enough mindset. The FO will never be like LAFC. They will never strive for being the best in the west.
Its been this way from the beginning. So often in business, how a culture is from the start is what they are indefinitely. Now the soccer-football is simply a delivery vehicle for peripheral benefits... expensive concessions, data mining, sponsorships, corporate partnerships, MLS revenue sharing, asset wealth and so on. Soccer is secondary, and looking more like it's not even a serious consideration.
Devil's advocate here - In my experience from a true fan's perspective, it doesn't matter how the team performs.
Wins are nice, goals are fun to watch, it gives you a boost to see the team high on the table, and you feel sad when you're low on the table.
BUT you still go to games, you still wear the colors, you still chant and cheer and sing, through thick and thin.
Maybe it's just an American perspective - the team has to collect silver to be considered worthy of fandom?? It is dishonorable to come out lower on the table and therefore not worth fandom?
In most cultures, a soccer team is a cherished lol cal institution - even if they suck, because it is the culture that surrounds the team that is truly important.
And I think for lots of Timbers fans, that's exactly the case. Hence the popularity of the team.
Hold on. What is a "true fan"? How am I not in that special club that apparently you are the curator of? I've been a Timbers season ticket holder since before MLS. I can count the number of home games I've missed in that time on two hands. I go to at least one away game every year, in a different city each season. Am I not a "true fan" just because I want the Timbers to be a dramatically better team than they currently are?
"Maybe it's just an American perspective - the team has to collect silver to be considered worthy of fandom?? It is dishonorable to come out lower on the table and therefore not worth fandom?"
That is not even remotely what I've said, ever. I am not saying that if they don't win a trophy in any given year that that year is a failure. I am saying that a team that has not won a major trophy in almost a decade (MLS is Back was fine, but 2020 is an asterisk of a year in sooooo many ways) should want more out of themselves than that one major trophy. And the front office should be working tirelessly to make sure the Timbers keep up with the leaders of the pack, every single year, no matter what.
The Timbers, as you say, have a large and passionate fanbase, and they've got the potential, in size and revenue, to be one of the teams that is perpetually in the Supporters' Shield conversation. The Timbers could, if they applied their resources, be one of the best teams in the league, year in and year out. THAT is what I want. Trophies are fun, for sure, but the point for me is that they're in the race for trophies all season long, not sitting here in late May going "well, we'll hopefully sneak into the playoffs and then see what happens".
The Timbers should be one of the marquee teams in MLS, for its history and support alone. And yet they're being lapped by teams like Austin, Cincinnati, and other new teams and new energies, and they don't seem bothered by that. And that bothers me.
"In most cultures, a soccer team is a cherished lol cal institution - even if they suck, because it is the culture that surrounds the team that is truly important."
Okay, so: what is the culture surrounding the Timbers right now? From the Timbers side, it's turning into one of coasting on nostalgia and good vibes, one which doesn't prioritize the current team (or the development of the future) as much as it wants everyone to feel good about the past - which, again, contains ONE trophy and one sort-of trophy, and a whole bunch of seasons of indifference.
The MLS Timbers don't care about creating a culture; they're interested in continuing to monetize the "Soccer City USA" culture that other Timbers teams created before this regime showed up, without doing anything of substance to add to that legacy.
I had really hoped that 2015 would be a springboard for the Timbers to turn them into a dominant force in the league; it didn't do that, the Timbers as an org seem fine with that, and that frustrates me to no end.
I guess some of us just go to or watch games to have a good time, and remain loyal despite performance, that's all. I take back the "true fan" part, that's subjective.
I think mostly you are correct. I will always cheer for the Timbers and will be loud in the stadium (and at home) when watching. But their current style of play is just abominable. As a soccer person who wants to see the beautiful game, the Timbers under Gio just arent doing it for me. Sitting back and hoping to not lose may get you some points for ties and the occasional win, but is just not enterntaining. And so though I may cheer for the Timbers, their style of play is loathesome and detracts from the fun of attending/watching the game.
Like others have said. A new coach will not make us contenders or best in the west. Not with roster we have. But a good coach could put out a better style and make us way more competitive. Our last 6 games mls ranks out of 29 teams and results.
14) Minnesota- lost
19) Vancouver- won
21) Austin - draw
22) RSL - Lost and draw
27) skc - lost
Softest part of our schedule and we got 5 points out of a possible 18. How bad does one need to be at their job before you fire them cause at this point a kid playing football manager could do better.
Ned Grabavoy, who needs a grace period to clean up Wilkinson's mess, should meet with each player and ask, "What is it that you think you're supposed to be doing?" Then bring in Gio and ask, "What are you trying to do out there?". Follow that up with the neat Socratic trick, "What do you think you mean by that?" Love to be a fly on the wall for that one. But I don't think anyone has a clue.
It is very clear by now that Gio isn't a system guy. Perhaps he believes the players will play beautifully on their own, perhaps he is just in over his head and had good enough players for 5 years to paper over his shortcomings.. But this team needs some rethinking of assumptions right now because hanging onto 2011-2018's heroes while rebuilding without a system just isn't working at all.
I had a come to the lord moment about gio this weekend. I was thinking why do we play different every game? Then it hit me. Gio is a great tournament coach because he can game plan for a one off. Very adaptable that way. It is great in a tournament. But no one has to game plan for us because we don’t do anything fundamentally. It has to be exhausting being on the team changing up what we do every week to adjust to the competition instead of just being who we are and maybe doing a slight wrinkle.
When Gio came to the Timbers, he was explicit about wanting to be a counterattacking team, and it worked pretty well. Until it didn't, because it turns out it's super easy to defend a counterattacking team, and once the league figured it out, Gio swiveled to...whatever he is now. As you say, he game plans for one-off situations, which again works until that situation is past, then the team is left wondering WTF happens next. No plan, no structure, no cohesive ideas.
I remember that initial press conference, Gio talking about his binder to beat the Timbers that got him the job, some self-depreciating anecdote about foolishly bringing an umbrella to the barber (did he have more hair then?) and a lot of other banter. The one part I can quote verbatim is when the interviewer asked what system he planned to use, and without any hesitation he quipped "High Press." Followed by a bit of awkward silence.
Obviously, we were unequipped with the personnel to do this, and every 3 months or so, some people would chime in about how we were slowly getting the pieces together to make that happen. I think the counterattacking style was sort of a stop gap, interim tactic that was placeholding for 2 seasons until Adi was traded, Valeri retired, etc etc. But the front office overestimated what Gio was capable of, and we sort of just got stuck with it (let's just say that the Christmas Tree is not a high-press). I think as a morale guy, and spokesman, Gio is great to have around. Maybe a good assistant coach. But he's been over his head a long time now.
Maybe he didn't say it out loud, maybe I'm misremembering, but he ran a 4-2-3-1 his first couple years and many, many news outlets noticed how that formation is ideal for counterattacking, which the Timbers did a lot.
"For 15 straight matches this season, the Portland Timbers were unbeatable. Their compact and organized defend-and-counter style was difficult for opponents to break down and equally as effective at creating goals for Portland on the counterattack."
"It all marked Savarese’s acceptance of what the Timbers are and what they do best. The Timbers are a counterattacking team and he leaned into that—he didn’t try to change them in the name of evolution."
"In the 4-2-3-1, Chara was put into his best spot in the central midfield in a double pivot with David Guzman. No longer cast out wide, Chara could impose himself defensively throughout the middle of the field and Guzman, alongside him, had what was easily his best game of 2018. Together, Chara and Guzman accounted for 13 recoveries—or, in other words, 13 counterattacking opportunities."
So even if he didn't say the words - and that's my bad, I thought he did - that's clearly how he was setting them up to play, and to a limited extent it worked. They don't even try that style any more, they're just a disorganized mess.
My memory of Gio's philosophy coming in was "possession oriented, front foot, attacking soccer." He inherited a team that had been drilled into a very strong counterattacking force during Porter's "pragmatic" phase. I saw Gio eventually accepting that identity and riding the abilities of prime Valeri\Blanco and the team identity they were comfortable with. I agree that currently it looks like all sense of top to bottom structure and identity is gone, and without top end attacking players who are deadly in transition, the results have evaporated as well. We simply don't have a creative leader to execute killer counters like e used to. Yimmi is more of a support, Moreno hasn't fully figured out the player he's meant to become, Evander is being asked to develop and impose his vision as a 10 on the fly, and the result is looking incoherent. I actually think this personnel is more suited to possess and unlock teams if they trained for it, and having Williamson back in the mix with Evander Moreno Yimmi and a DP forward could be a good look. But right now, we don't know how we want to press and defend, and we don't know how we want to attack. Consistently giving up possession is one thing if you're high pressing and countering like Philly while keeping a tight backline, but we look utterly disorganized and unable to cover when we play a high line, and give up too much space and too many shots when we try to concede possession and counter. Giving up so much of the ball when you can't be deadly in transition at pace is a brutal thing to watch.
I'm not going to get on the "Gio Out" bandwagon that seems to be gaining momentum, but I have to wonder why, with big matches coming up, Chara and Paredes were still on the pitch at the final whistle in a match that was an obvious loss by the 70th minute?!? Those guys need rest but are instead getting run into the ground. Is our depth truly that poor in central midfield? Loria couldn't do a shift at the 8?
I suspect Gio didn't want to throw the only sub, a T2 guy recently signed as emergency depth after Ayala and Williamson went down with season ending injuries, available to replace Chara or Paredes to the wolves. There is nobody else out there who can play the 6, and if he takes them both out and puts a totally inexperienced guy in the single pivot it could have put Mabs in an even more precarious position (if that is possible).
So if you're not on the Gio out bandwagon, and yet you're horrified at roster management, I have to ask: all the questions you pose in your comment are literally coaching decisions. How many times have we seen that scenario or something similar, as far as subs, play out in the last couple seasons? And if the answer is more than the one you quoted, how are you not even remotely curious about a post-Gio Timbers future?
I don't ask that to start a fight, I'm genuinely curious what it would take for you to be GioOut if repeated iterations of Sunday's sub/lack of sub patterns don't do it.
This is a manager who took us to the finals twice, so I’m not ready to write him off yet. I’m also conscious of how riddled with injury we are. Many of Gio’s roster decisions have been questionable to me without necessarily being fatally bad. I’m more concerned specifically about D Chara (our only healthy 6!) being asked to play the full 90 in a game we’ve already lost. Loria could totally have done the last 20 mins at the 6…
The first final he "took" the Timbers to was Caleb Porter's team. And they got overrun.
The second final he took the Timbers to, they were completely outplayed for most of the actual final; that late goal was spectacular, but the Timbers weren't prepared for what NYCFC was going to do and were second best most of the day. That's not enough for me.
"I’m also conscious of how riddled with injury we are"
That was the case in February and March. That is not the case now.
To be fair, we are missing both Williamson and Ayala to season ending injuries. We should have solid depth at the MF but that boat has sailed. While it would have been nice to have a 5th MF with MLS experience, the team chose to bolster the attack due to Mora and Blanco's injury situation. I think it was a reasonable gamble, it just didn't work out.
The FO didn't do the job in the offseason and now the team basically isn't competitive in MLS. NIezgoda isn't even a starter but has over cap hit salary. Boli is meh as the new guy so far. Evander is still adjusting, but hasn't been consistently amazing. Blanco can barely play sadly due to injury. They don't have a good or deep backline, and now the team is just bad.
They have to get rid of underperforming players and sign a really good 9 and get a new CB and midfielder. Until they have a solid 9 this team is always going to be meh or worse. The FO has a lot of work to do, but man it's not even worth watching these games till they do something about it. Just a terrible organization right now altogether.
"They have to get rid of underperforming players and sign a really good 9 and get a new CB and midfielder."
Almost none of that can happen until this winter, after the season, because again, the Timbers have essentially zero cap room/flexibility right now to do anything but marginal tweaks around the edges. Unless they can find some chump team to take Mabiala/Niezgoda off the Timbers' hands, we're stuck with this roster until after the season. Thanks for the parting gifts, Gavin!
They could easily buy out Niezgoda, use the season ending injury on Wiliams, and buy down Blanco to be TAM. Then they have a DP spot to use and they have money for a midfielder. After Tuilloma being sold, they should have cap space and resources to sign a starting quality CB. They should have done that all in the offseason, but they didn't.
I think you're right it's 2024 before they really can rebuild fully, but a starting quality DP 9 a new starting CB and a good 6/8 that can help the midfield and this team is a lot better than it currently is.
They supposedly had room to sign and were shopping a young DP forward and a CB in the off-season. Then sold Tuiloma on top of it, as though they were really going to make a move. Then didn't and now we have mabiala singlehandedly giving away games. Yes there's a lot of dead weight in this roster but they said they were in the market to make moves and had the ability, and did nothing. I was optimistic when they brought in Evander but failing to support him by improving the spine of the team is a very bad way to start life for your new franchise player.
Frankly despite the budget issues the Timbers could add should have made moves before the end of the season. Look at what SL City has done this year--they built a team on the cheap from mostly distressed assets, and gave them an identity to run with. Other teams have gone this route with some success--Colorado and Salt Lake, for stretches, to name two. Portland has been very bad over the years at finding talent from within the league and taking advantage of experience to create solid depth on a budget. The team has a strong preference for international players, has often brought in unknown foreign guys and put them through an adjustment period with low \mixed success, rather than shopping domestically, and our academy has given us virtually nothing. That has absolutely got to change and whether Grabavoy recognizes that and does something about it, starting this summer, will tell us a lot about whether he can turn things around.
Yep, we desperately need to exploit the domestic market much much more. Really effective players can be bought for cheap (compared to international players) and have a lower salary. I think Eric Miller has been a pretty good signing, he’s been effective when called upon and is cheap. Knows the league, knows the team, and knows his role. Imagine if we had him instead of Van Rankin last year
They are not going to buy out Niezgoda. Teams around MLS rarely use buyouts because they're expensive as hell, and buying out a DP is even more so. We are stuck with him until this winter.
I don't think they'll do it either because it costs a lot. They also likely had no takers in the offseason as no one would want that contract. However, if they cared about the product on the pitch they would. They can still get a good CB in the summer and sign another good 6/8 with Williamson on the season ending injury list. We'll see what they can do.
Yes, A voice of reason. need to wait to clear roster and do it aggressively and with no pity and then reload. Resigning blanco and mabs 2 years ago hamstringed the FO until the end of this year. Since then the FO has been on fire. Moreno, Mosquera, Evander, Bravo. this is the making of a solid team. anyone else that hasn't improved over the last 2 years should also be considered to let go. Mora, Goda, Loria, Bonilla....eyes on you. Lots of roster spots to fill but if your not getting any better than being in younger player who is hungry with potential and give them the run. they don't improve mix the kettle again. Our roster development has been too stagnant.
Can't like this too much, Beckenbauer. All of it makes sense.
Gotta be ruthless to clear the roster the way it NEEDS to be done. Especially "...anyone else that hasn't improved over the last 2 years should also be considered to let go. Mora, Goda, Loria, Bonilla".... To me, Mora and Williamson, because of their injuries, now rate very critical/skeptical scrutiny to judge if they'll even be able to return to being top quality MLS players. If not, we should move on from one or both.
And it's imperative to cut further because most of the current bench is not even spot MLS quality. Axe Rasmussen, Bonilla, Gutierrez and Mabiala, and resign Nathan only if he agrees to a T2 contract. All are readily replaceable for better players with higher upsides at minimally more $$.
The last and largest change? This offseason may well be time for a completely new coaching staff. That's a whole separate topic.
Nathan is on a near league minimum salary. For a third string striker, that’s perfect. Don’t think we’re gonna find a better player for that much more money. He’s young, hungry, plays with passion, and has some raw talent
I matched his profile against Ikoba's, and chose Ikoba based on his age, size and projected upside... for that upside to come about he has to practice and get minutes with the first team.
Thinking the 2024 #1 & 2 strikers are Boli and Mora right now. If Mora can't return to that level he should go and we're looking for a #9 again (sigh)...
Boli is signed to a one year contract that expires in December. I have a feeling that they'll bring someone in, either as a DP/YDP or as a TAM-level player.
I like Boli enough and think he’s the clear #1 as of now but he almost certainly won’t be here past this year. He’s just a stopgap until we get a young DP #9 either in the summer or next off season. YDP will be #1, then Mora as a backup if he ever recovers (I mean who even knows at this point), and Nathan and Ikoba are both cheap depth options. Each striker brings something different
Nailed it Zach. I think people get too excited by the idea that Niezgoda is smart and technical. Yes, he is. But in MLS, you have to have the basic athleticism and work rate to bring all that into play, and he hasn't shown that since his injury. It's unfortunate: I don't know if he lost a step, or confidence, or what, but anymore he feels like the old guy who in theory can take the shot if you leave him open but no one does and so he's just out there jogging for the most part. Even on set pieces, he's less a scorer than a flick on guy, because he just doesn't have the physicality of people who score with their head in MLS.
I'll just throw it out here, as well, that I'm a little worried still about Evander falling into this category. He can do crazy cool things with the ball, but he has to demand it and fight for more of it, and I'm not sure he has the physical attributes or at least the personality type to do that in MLS. Here the Valeri comparison is good: Valeri was always astonishingly slow as a professional soccer player, but he still had enough aggression and other physical abilities to get involved and get his shots. Eventually, his lack of pace caught up with him. But for a while there, obviously, he had enough to bring his skills into play.
MLS is not a league that rewards technical skill and soccer smarts, in and of themselves.
He's technical in the final third and crafty, and he can certainly head the ball as we've seen in the past. He's our best option right now, imo. I was excited for Boli, but he's not shown me too much. I'd like to see Niezgoda get some real minutes with some real players around him - like Blanco and Fogaca and Evander.
Sure, give him a start if he's working hard in practice and showing something. He had 9G 2A in 1900+ minutes. Asprilla had 10G 2A 1800+ minutes. He had a decent start in 2020, but outside of that last year was his best. A non striker out performing you in less minutes doesn't warrant a DP deal or really a TAM deal. If he'd played well at all in 2023 I think he'd get minutes as we don't really have other options that are really looking great. Boli is meh.
Yeah, I thought Niezgoda looked terrible to start the year, but then he started to knock some in and it looked like he was gaining confidence, but without regular minutes, it's probably difficult to perform well. A striker, or any player, needs to know they can screw up now and then and know that the coach will still play you, imo, as long as you are scoring or playing well overall. It just looks like Gio has his guy in Boli now. But, I don't think it's working with him. It's not just him, it's the wing play, too, that is not firing because they aren't good wingers.
For a moment when Blanco, Niezgoda and Fogaca came in, the Timbers were controlling the game for about five minutes and had generated some chances, and then Evander turned it over with a bad pass and they were chasing once again.
Now and again? He literally hasn’t been good since he got injured a few years ago. It’d be nice if Blanco was healthy and could play more but I’m confused on the Fogaca idea as he’s not really a winger and isn’t going till be great in possession or defending. Idk. If Niezgoda played well consistently he’d be starting. He got several starts to start the season and we looked to be playing with 9. I guess I’m just saying the guy who is barely able to play to knee pain, the league minimum 3rd string striker, and the underperforming striker for a couple years aren’t probably the answer to winning. They’re missing some talent.
Somebody ought to figure out how many goals we have given up when Mabiala has played, and consequently, how many losses, etc. we have suffered. Then, we could go back to the offseason and wonder why in the h-e double hockey sticks we didn't find another CB that we could put in there when one of our first two CBs are out, and, to totally ensure no eff ups, release him altogether? Sorry, but this is something I will not understand, ever.
They didn't sell him for nothing. They sold him for $800K in TAM (and a 15% sell-on fee if he's sold outside MLS), which they then used to buy down a few players on the roster and start to clean up the mess the prior regime made of the payroll.
It was a necessary move, financially, but it was really unfortunate that it was necessary in the first place.
Oh, I'm still mad about it too, don't get me wrong. It sucks that GW and his people didn't care enough about long-term roster flexibility to even allow for the possibility of keeping one of the most solid CB's the Timbers have had in years. I totally understand why the move was made, I'm just still salty that it had to be made in the first place. But they had no choice this past winter but to sell what was sellable, if they wanted to do anything.
I suppose we could have mutually agreed to part ways with Mabs, but that would have only been half the money we needed to get off the books and no TAM coming our way. GW left with a huge TAM deficit and only a very few players who were valuable enough commodities to trade for that amount of TAM. Choices were essentially Tuiloma, Paredes, Williamson, Mosquera, Moreno, Bravo, McGraw, perhaps Ivacic. Tuiloma's similar salary to the above, age of 27-28, and proven MLS starter made him the trade target worth the most.
As RCTEyeDee says, we didn't have enough TAM to meet obligations to players not named Mabiala or Tuiloma (or one of the other names above), therefore someone had to be moved for the cash to meet salary cap / TAM obligations made by the former guy.
Ah gotcha. I would've kept Bill and traded Williamson or Paredes- but i don't run any teams. Seems like we had enough mids. Glad Paredes is playing better again, sad for Eric's ACL but he seems to be healing up quick.
I still maintain that a new coach could get more out of this roster, even as messy of a roster as it is in parts. I am under no illusions that a new coach could make them MLS Cup contenders this year, don't get me wrong, but a new coach could make them competitive in games like this where in recent years they just get boatraced.
I hate to agree with this, but I simply have to. While I like Gio, the team just isn't playing well. There are enough pieces here for the team to be a decent squad, but right now it simply isn't performing. The team was listless against SKC, and that was the most dissapointing thing. If the players are tired, and I think they are, then the subs need to be playing.
I've listed about 8 players on the team that I think are the core going forward, and 6 of them are healthy. That should be enough to field a competative team. But we are only seeing that less than 50% of the time. That needs to be better. Also, with the youth on the team we should be a better pressing team. Only D Chara is older and doesn't have a backup, so there isn't a good reason not to play with some intensity. Gio has been here for 6 years, and in that time his message has probably gotten stale. While I don't advocate for change all the time, it is probably time to move on and forward on the coaching staff. We simply are not seeing the results on the field, and that is telling me the coaches aren't getting the job done.
I'd be optimistic if the Timbers made a play for Berhalter. I realize he may want to try to go back to Europe take another far-flung international gig like Bradley did, but he's one of the best available coaching candidates out there, clearly knows how to implement structure, but also has enough clubs in the bag to adjust, he knows the league, and now he can add world cup experience to his perspective.
I would love that move for its ambition alone. I'd also love to see them make a run at Jesse Marsch. Either of the two would be a great signal that the Timbers want to be dramatically better than they are.
I personally find Marsch kinda overrated and I'm not that into watching red bull soccer. He definitely has international experience at a high level at this point that could translate back to MLS and I could see it jump starting young players but my preference would be for a team that wants to possess, knows how to counterrpress against the right opponents. We know for certain Berhalter knows how to build those teams, but the attacking phase was a huge criticism of Marsch at Leeds.
I don't think it's really fair to judge Marsch at Leeds all that harshly (harschly?). He had a roster that didn't really fit the style he wanted to play, he said "I need players that will play the way I want", then Leeds went out and got several of those players...and fired Marsch like five days after the end of the transfer window.
So I think it's fair to say he didn't really have a chance to coach "his" team there at all, and if he were hired at the Timbers, he could have immediate input into transfers starting this winter.
I'd be fine with Berhalter too, I'm not ride or die for Marsch - I just mostly want a top-shelf coach who is not Gio at this point.
RCTEyeDee, making a change of direction isn't just replacing the Head, it's also changing most, if not all the coaching staff.
Otherwise it's just a Band-aid that'll need to be changed again soon. That's a major disruption that should wait until the offseason unless the wheels totally come off, and we'll see about that possibility soon.
It's worth noting the entire coaching staff got extensions when Ridgewell was added this past November. That would add to the expense and disruption of a coaching change.
Last, if we see a mid-season new coach as the immediate need, one of the current staff is the least disruptive interim change... who could be the guy to fill that role?
"if we see a mid-season new coach as the immediate need, one of the current staff is the least disruptive interim change."
Yes, I agree. And I'm fine with that. I've said it before: make Ridgewell the interim coach and spend the rest of this season finding a full-time replacement, who starts the day after the Timbers' season ends and has input in the winter transfer window.
"That would add to the expense and disruption of a coaching change."
MLS assistant coaches make less than or just over six figures, generally. Their salaries/severance packages - including Gio's - would be a rounding error for a company that's worth more than $600M. They can afford it.
What evidence do we have that Ridgewell would make a good coach, even on an interim basis? Yes, he's a defensive assistant coach for the club right now. But the the defense is a train wreck, and as far as I know, he doesn't have any other coaching experience. I just don't know why people keep bringing him up as an option for the head job.
We have none! But the key words there are "interim coach", so it doesn't really matter. He might be terrible. He might be adequate. He might be decent. But as I've said before, honestly, right now, whether it's him, Llamosa, or (insert random name here), almost literally anyone can coach this team for 19 more games while/until a permanent coach is found.
Interim coaches are interim for a reason. They're placeholders. Almost anyone can hold that place, be it for 4-5 games or 20. They have to know how to coach on a basic level, sure, but they don't really need to be anything but Not The Guy They Just Fired, because all they're doing is keeping the lights on until the new person moves in, as it were.
Whether it's Ridgewell, Llamosa, or hell, let Borchers do it the way GW used to when he'd fire a coach, it doesn't really matter, because this season is a hot mess anyway; an interim coach isn't going to do any worse than Gio did on Sunday. And the permanent coach that follows soon after will almost certainly do better.
I also think if Gio put the right players out there (which, of course, is coaching), that he could be getting some results.
I'd be interested to see what a new coach would do with the roster. Are you suggesting that he play the same starting lineup but with different (i.e some) tactics and he would get different results?
I say different lineup and a plan and this team would be romping most teams in the league.
I'm sure it's demoralizing as a player to play with someone who can't get the job done. And yet, Gio keeps putting the same players out there week in and week out. There's enough talent on this team imo to curb stomp the SKCs of the league.
I wouldn't say "different results" in terms of "they'll automatically win more", but I do think that a 4-1 loss might be a 2-1 or 2-2 and might be a more interesting game to watch.
I'm not naive enough to think that a new coach equals an instant 180 degree turnaround in results, but Gio's been around for what, 6 years now? Which means his coaching sessions are muscle memory, and I wouldn't be surprised to know that players have tuned out a lot but the most current-opponent-specific things he says, just because they've heard them a bazillion times before. That's just human nature.
So a new coach wouldn't make this an entirely new team, but it might make the current team a bit more fun to watch, and as you say it might open up the team to having some current mostly-bench players play, and maybe getting some improved performances, if not different results.
Agree. A new coach will not make this team a contender. You have a realistic expectation of outcome. But I could definitely see a coach put out a better product that keeps us competitive around the 4-6 mark.
There is quality on the squad, but the team needs to play with a little more urgency and the players need someone similar to Valeri or Blanco in the prime of their careers to lead the attack. That might be Evander, but new players often take time to reach their potential, or Williamson, but he can’t help right now due to his injury. Also, the team has to play better on defense, partly by replacing Mabiala as a regular/backup and also by tracking and marking better. It’s great that Ayala before his injury and Paredes since then have shown signs of significant improvement. But neither contributes a huge amount on offense, although Paredes works hard to help out in the final third. And Mora has been out for a long time with his injury and Neizgoda has struggled to fully adjust to not having Valeri and Blanco. Boli is a good fill-in but he also needs better play around him.
They also need an MLS starting quality 9. That's been a huge hole in their roster now for a while. First, it was Ebobisse playing on the wing while Niezgoda and Mora got time up top, and Mora was fairly good, but Niezgoda hasn't shown well in a long time with any consistency and he doesn't have the physicality or the skills to go 1v1 anywhere like other players do. I still say this is their biggest attacking issue, but they are also playing with 1 DP. You kind of need at least 2 good DPs and a solid backline to be good in this league. We don't have that.
comments about players are honestly moot, it is YEAR SIX of this nonsense, the roster is a result of the FO and Gio, if it is a mess it is on THEM. Stop taking it out on players who have no idea what the plan is and are constantly BEING MISPLAYED.
I honestly don't know what is worse at this point, the FO, the coach, or a fanbase that pretends to know what it is talking about and placates the stupidity of the former
"a fanbase that pretends to know what it is talking about"
I have always found that the best way to ingratiate yourself into a community is to insult them. How do you know you know more about the game than anyone else here? What makes you the expert?
You can make your points - with which I agree a lot of the time! - and not be rude about it. Please try.
What do you see as the role of the fan base? As I've mentioned elsewhere the duty of the fans is simply to support the team, through thick and thin, no matter what. And not much more than that.
I mean, I don't look at being a fan as a "duty", so I'm not sure I can answer your question properly. I am not, however, as unquestioning as you in my fandom; if I think the team can/should be better, I see no reason I shouldn't express that, just as much as I express how happy I am when they are good. I pay for a season ticket, and for that payment, I would like to be entertained by the team more than I currently am.
Does that mean I'm going to stop going? No, I'm in this for the long haul. I'm there either way; I'm just not going to blindly be all YAY SPORTS when I keep seeing terrible play with no direction or purpose. I think it's fair to demand better from the team, even if "demand better" is just venting here and still going to games and jumping and clapping and singing for victory.
I've been checked out since the team gave up that last second goal at home. I am just disgusted with this team. I've had four season tickets for the last dozen years and honestly am not sure if I want to keep doing this. I like most of our players but I don't like the results. I'm now fully on board with the GIO GO gang. Sure, let's let Ridgy give it a go. I live the guy. Maybe even go find someone who's really experienced and successful in the manager's role. Is anyone like that out there? And where the hell is our owner these days? He used to be so engaged......
The Timbers' owner is currently throwing a hissy fit after everyone wanted him to sell the team. A hissy fit that is basically YOU WANTED ME TO NOT BE INVOLVED THIS IS WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE SUCK IT YOU POORS, and is at this point doing literally nothing but approving payroll. He has no compelling financial reason to sell, so he's letting the team stagnate until he's bored enough to turn his dad's $35M into the 650M+ he would get for selling the team. The Timbers are owned by giant failson Kendall fucking Roy, and it's hugely maddening.
Worth $650 million on paper and, currently, not worth much of anything on the field. MP, if you're paying attention any more, that big number could shrink quickly.
San Diego just paid a $500 million entry fee to join MLS. That number isn't shrinking. It never shrinks.
But if MP was honest about his "hands off" promise, Ned will come in tomorrow and say "I want to fire Gio" and it will happen, and someone will call MP at home and tell him the news. It desperately needs to happen, but we'll see.
wait what? When did he "admit" that? Also, he literally just got the job full time in January. There's no way his job is even remotely in danger right now, he hasn't been in the job long enough to make a difference one way or the other yet. His first window was full of stopgap signings and the sale of Tuiloma to make cap space, as he tries to fix the mess that GW made of the roster; I would argue that given his constraints, his first winter window was...fine.
Of all the problems the Timbers have, I really don't think Ned is on the list.
Just in case this is behind a pay wall, let me pull the quote.
“We were vocal when we traded Bill that it was obviously a major priority and necessity to lock up a center back,” Grabavoy said. “For us, we’re not gonna shy away from the fact that we didn’t accomplish that. I take ownership of that. At the same time, looking at the approach that we took and the players we were looking at on the international market, the player we were prioritizing is still very much a strong option for us. It’s just the ability to land that player now and have that player for the next stretch."
Basically, he knew once Bill got sold, CB was a big priority and he didn't get it done. He knows that this roster is not up to snuff.
I agree that Ned is far from the problem. and At the same time, how does he explain to a new hire why he let the last guy go when he admitted it was his fault a glaring need wasn't filled?
There's not a direct line between "Ned didn't sign a position of need in one window" and "That will cost this team a good coach post-Gio", though. The Timbers have been needing to move on from Gio for a while now, and I'm not sure that one missed signing in one window is going to be a big impediment to bringing someone else in.
Not that anyone played a good game for the Timbers, however Evander, who seemed pretty full of himself after his brace so long ago, had virtually no impact on the Timber’s attack. I hope he doesn’t just end up another Yimmi Chara, clearly talented but infrequently impactful. Why did everyone seem so disinterested, especially in the second half?
No tenacity, no intensity, no commitment to what they’re being asked to do. These players aren’t giving it all they the way a Jim Curtin or the St.Louis coach (name escapes me) team gets from it’s players. I get a kick out of folks here who say this guy or that guy can’t coach the Timbers because he’s not ready, he’s too inexperienced. Well, look at Gio, he came from a loaded second tier team where he didn’t have to manage. He wasn’t ready for this job, and six years later, he still isn’t ready. He can’t adjust or he won’t adjust. Same difference in the end. Time to make a change before we end up in Earthquakes of a few years ago territory.
"No tenacity, no intensity, no commitment to what they’re being asked to do"
What if...this IS what they're being asked to do? That's my problem. Gio is not a good coach, and hasn't been for a few seasons now. It's time to change. Let Ridgewell take the reins until the end of the season and then bring in someone who knows how to build a team for the entire season, not just a miraculous eight game stretch towards the end.
Yes, at some point the FO has to realize that the value of their young, skilled players are diminishing under Gio because they look like shit week in and week out. It makes much more sense to eat Gio's contract than let their player investments go to waste.
I just don't think it would be Ridgewell, based on his lack of experience. He only just joined his very first top tier coaching staff. It would probably be Llamosa, who I've always assumed was here to be a defensive expert, and given our frequently shambolic defending I'm pretty worried either he or Ridgewell would tank worse than Gio for the rest of this year. Who led the team when Gio was out sick a couple weeks ago?
Um, this is also Gio's first 'top-tier' coaching gig. As it was Porter's. Also should note that Ridgy has played at a higher level and been coached at a higher level than anyone else currently on PTFC staff.
Yeah, I mean, I'm on the verge of punting this year entirely, so it could be Ridgewell, it could be Llamosa, it could be Sam the Kit Man for all I care. It mostly doesn't matter because they'd only be here until the end of the season, so anyone on the staff would be fine as a placeholder. It just needs to not be Gio.
I'd be interested to see how Llamosa would change things up from Gio-ball. While out on sick leave, I'm sure Carlos needed to follow Gio's instructions. I'll bet, more hoping, Carlos would have his own views/methods/systems he feels would be an improvement. Assuming he's not already advising his ways to Gio and both are to fault for the mess we have. On second thought, Carlos and Gio have been together before their time with our Timbers. More than likely, their methods are the same. Maybe Liam is the interim answer if it ever comes down to it...
[Too slow to edit] On second thought, Carlos and Gio have been together well before their time with our Timbers. More than likely their methods are one in the same. Maybe Liam would be the interim answer if it ever came down to it...
There's enough talent to win games. He just isn't playing the right guys. Time for a new coach. His personnel decisions and in game management is atrocious. The only thing I can say after watching this game regarding his coaching that I agreed with was he brought in Fogaca, Niezgoda and Blanco in for offense. I've been dreaming of this for about a month. The only problem was he brought in offense when they were down 3-1 and with only 10 minutes to go. Idiot!
Fogaca- he looked as lively and talented as I remember him cutting through Seattle's defense en route to a 4-1 win - only to languish on the bench for the next month. I'm telling you, he looks like Eden Hazard on the wing out there. Why Gio insists on starting Dairon - the bike legend - week in and week out I'll never know. Asprilla is great to bring on when you need something crazy to happen, but when you need someone to threaten the back line in myriad ways, bring in Fogaca. He's way more talented than he is given credit for.
Blanco - poor guy. He didn't even touch the ball in the 10 minutes and stoppage time he was in for. Evander couldn't even spray a ball out to him on the wing, and he got called for a hand ball, and the one time Fogaca dimed one out to him on the wing, I can't remember what happened but it was beautiful.
Niezgoda got put in on goal and nearly scored immediately upon coming on. I fear Gio has messed with his confidence because his boy Boli came into town. Granted, Niezgoda wasn't performing well, but I think he's our best hope at this point. If anyone thinks he could have scored the header that Boli missed at the half (why no mention of this or not even in the highlights), then you are with me on this thought.
Yes, Boli scored, and I appreciate all goals, but let's be honest and say that it wasn't any run of play goal, but off a throw in sequence.
Mabiala aside, our offense sucks. No threat. Start Fogaca left wing, Niezgoda up top and Blanco on the right wing. Give them more than 10 minutes. If they don't perform, then I'll shut up.
Nieazgoda ain't it and hasn't been since he got here. He was a terrible signing. Just his injury history alone should not have put him in contention to be signed as a dp. He was a Tam player or move on kind of guy. He has for years proven he can't perform in mls or just doesn't want to anymore. Both boli and Nathan (who I think is our best 9 at this moment just based on hustle) are better players.
Like I said when reports came out during blancos contract negotiations, "because he hasn't had surgery but they found issues with his knee in a x-ray and he failed a physical elsewhere, he probably has no cartlige in his knee. Which means inflammation and pain." It was rumored that he can't play without his knee swelling up. Essentially his career is over and he is riding out his contract. Which is a "thank you" from the FO to him instead of releasing him. Any minutes he gets now is a "this game is over " decision.
Also, have you watched Hazard? Nathan is no hazard. Unless you mean today's hazard.
All right then, wait till next year seems to be the cry.
I'm thinking of right now when the summer breezes are kicking in and the drum of the north end is booming, not the drip, drip, drip of the off season.
Keep starting Asprilla then, and Yimmi on the wing and Boli, and keep watching them struggle to score. They don't even get quality chances, let alone score.
Or, let Niezgoda play, a player who obviously knows how to connect with other players, has an elevated game, a thinking man's game, a creative game. Let Nathan play on the wing, who knows how to connect with Niezgoda, who can get his shot off on his own, who is more than hustle. The guy is exciting to watch. Let Blanco play 60, fine, and then bring on someone else.
I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most ignorant posts i have seen. Like, are you new to nieazgoda on this team or are you his agent? Cause he doesn't connect with his teammates. Like ever. Can't outrun any defender. Can't hold up play, at all. And constantly makes the wrong run around the box. The guy has been terrible for us for years. Like not even TAM level numbers. Ffs Nathan who is 80k a year has better stats than he does with less time. Your bias for whatever reason is obvious but most fans who have watched him fail us year after year know that he is terrible and should have been shipped out last year, let alone this year.
Niezgoda just isn't good, and hasn't been for like 2 years. Fogaca isn't a winger and shouldn't be started over a more experienced Asprilla, who is a more complete player. Also Asprilla looked better last season than Niezgoda as a striker and that's him playing out of position. Blanco isn't fit for 90 and probably not even 60. Honestly there's a real chance he's totally done, but if not he's probably no where near what he once was. You're not solving the attack with those guys.
The issue is we don't have a starting quality 9. We only have one DP playing and he's adjusting to a league with team that hasn't ever gelled due to injuries. You put a quality DP 9 up top like Fernandez was before his drug issues derailed him here and the team would be immediately improved and better in the attack.
Another issue is Yimmi hasn't played much this year and hasn't really been effective. Essentially the FO has made commitments or overcommitted salary to a lot of players who for one reason or another are just underperforming or not able to play. I never saw Yimmi as a strong DP, and with Blanco out and Niezgoda not being good for a while now, we have one true DP and some very talented TAM and younger players like Bravo, Mosquera, Paredes, Moreno, and even Ivacic. I just think you need guys who are going to come in and take on the leadership roles and the weight that comes with that. We don't have that, and while Gio for sure could be doing better with who he has, the FO screwed up 2023 by not getting their job done, and loading the team up with higher payed players that aren't performing.
I loved Fernandez, too, but that's history. I'm dealing with the here and now. Why not Fogaca at wing? Why are you locking him in at forward? The Timbers need offense, so why not get two forwards in there and put the smaller guy out at wing and let him cut in and rip. This seems so simple to me.
Yimmi has 1G/2A in 252 minutes (only 3 games started). In his short minutes he’s probably been our most effective player (not that I’d expect him to keep that pace up with more minutes but the guy has been good when he’s played)
True but Asprilla has 2G 1A in a couple hundred more minutes. Yimmi has never seemed like a 10G 20A over a season player. He’s never come close to double digits in any category. Seems more like a solid TAM level contributor. However, even if he’s not a top MLS DP it’s really just been injuries holding him back from being effective consistently.
Mabs and Bravo made huge impacts ... For SKC. My favorite part was the half turn star jump from 5 yards away. Is there any possible way to ensure getting megged than jump turning with your legs spread? The slow jog while watching a player fire a goal in from far was also nice. Mabs goal was just icing on the shitcake
The second half was really bad. Mabiala, who played a pretty good first half while man-marking Shalloi for almost the entire 45 minutes, returned to his ineffective play in the second half. I haven’t looked at the second 45 minutes again to see if Shalloi just switched sides of the field, but Mabiala should have moved with him or been replaced. Mabiala is not a good a starter, even when McGraw or Zuparic can’t play. He just messes up in every game and is a step or two slower than he needs to be. As for the midfielders and forwards, the second half featured only a small number of attacks … and even fewer promising attacks.
Gio per the Oregonian, “I thought we managed the game very well in the first half,” Timbers coach Giovanni Savarese said. “I think at the end of the half we could’ve been up 3-1. We were in control even though we didn’t have a lot of the ball. We had organization in the back line. We just had to continue to carry on in the second half the same idea. Three minutes of distraction, and the game changed completely. ... We had control of the match for the majority of the game.”
Seriously, what game was he watching? Gio has to go.
I had been firmly in the defend Gio camp. After watching this? I can’t anymore. Regretting season ticket purchase. The team should be ashamed of what they are putting on the pitch. Not that they will but MP should offer fans a refund. Frankly there is no way I renew next year because this front office can’t be trusted.
Resigning Blanco was a mistake. I knew it when they did it. You can’t have your DP’s as a back up striker you hardly use. A right wing who is a solid TAM player, and a guy you are playing in a new position and expect to be competitive in this league. Individually I like the Timbers talent but they need a system. And it isn’t what they are playing now.
Are you really regretting getting season tickets because of Gio's performance?
Well, I love going to PP and to watch soccer, so big double win there for me. But when I find myself saying "I have so much laundry to do, maybe I will just skip the game" or am willing find a friend to give the tickets to becuase I feel "too busy" I think that indicates a problem. His style of play is do absolutely boring to watch and then to lose while watching boring soccer leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So yes, I end up skipping games just becuase its not worth my time to go watch a boring game and lose. If we went out and played an interesting style of play but lost then so be it they were the better team on the day; I can live with that. But I hate being bored by crappy soccer.
The good thing is we have an owner that is completely active and committed to the Timbers right now! Oh, wait...
I mean, I will say he's not wrong about being up at the half - game management aside, which of course wasn't great, Boli could have had a hat trick by the half.
I agree with him for the first 30 minutes until their goal. They had nothing going forward, their attack was completely toothless. Yes we barely had the ball but we were bottling them very effectively. We looked dangerous on the counter and should’ve had another goal. However once momentum shifted, we lost control. Game became more open and they exploited that
I agree with JJ. The first half, though mostly on defense, was OK and the Timbers gave up very few good chances.
It's true we were managing the match well in those 30 minutes, but boy what an ugly way to play. Most of the time we had all 11 players in our defensive third. Talk about parking the bus!
The fact is though, you can't play defense and defense and defense and expect to continue to play defense and give up few chances. Our offense is so bad (Boli, Asprilla, and even Moreno - because he plays out of position) that eventually your defense gets worn down. That said, yes, I agree that Mabiala has worn out his expiration date. I said that after the Atlanta final game in 2018 when he lolligagged his way up tyhe field and kept Josef Martinez onside.
Literally just the singular statistic of Possession negates his statement. You can't claim to have been fully in control of the match for the majority of the game if you were outpaced on possession 63% to 37%. They had 1.7 times as much possession as we did. That's not being in control. I watched the first half and didn't compelled to watch the second. If that was the better half, that says a lot.
A couple more key stats:
Outshot 15 to 9
Bested in shots on goal, 7 to 3
Bested in corners at 8 to 1
And just demolished on crosses at 21 to 5
Where, exactly, were they in control?
I agree with you that Gio is past his expiration date, to borrow some language from the author.
I mean, what else is there to say that hasn't been said? Gio's past it. He needs to go. This team isn't playing with any spark, creativity, or energy - and the team has most of the starters back, so that's not an excuse any more.
This was always going to be a rough season, with the roster what it is and with very little ability to change it, but for the love of all that's holy Gio isn't helping things. The Gio era needs to end, tomorrow.
So it seems to me the Timbers have a question to ask of themselves at this point in their MLS evolution. They - top to bottom - need to ask themselves "who do we want to be as an organization?"
Do the Timbers want to be the team that regularly beats Seattle and claims local bragging rights and accomplishes nothing else? Or do the Timbers want to be a team that is in the Supporters' Shield conversation every season, and is a consistently good team that other teams legitimately do not want to face, at any time? Because it sure seems like the Timbers are opting for the former, and they're increasingly being lapped by much newer teams that have a clearer idea of where they want to go.
I'm tired of the Timbers coasting on the banked goodwill/nostalgia of "here's a bunch of really nice players and oh yeah double post and 2015 and we always beat Seattle!"
That's not good enough, and the entire org should want more from and for the team than that. If Portland really wants to be "Soccer City, USA", they need to earn that title through their play and not coast on the nostalgia of the 1970's to make that claim. Other teams, newer teams, are increasingly far more relevant in the national soccer conversation than the Timbers are, and that should motivate every single Timbers employee to make things better, because nothing we're seeing now is remotely good enough.
For a $48 pizza at Providence Park, the least they could do is put out a team that scores more than one goal in three games and doesn't routinely concede in the 94'.
But for the ownership and their FO minions these days, it really seems to be more about the pizza.
Agreed. And that's been especially apparent this season. I moved from Oregon to Ohio in mid-March. Not even having the option to visit the stadium, and having to stay up late for matches, and routinely watching other matches earlier in the day—it's really apparent that other clubs, even other legacy clubs, are putting a better and better product on the field with an actual on-field identity. I've never followed east coast teams closely, but I've been watching a lot of Columbus Crew, Cincinnati FC, Philadelphia Union, and NE Revolution games lately. They each have an identity and a drive. And they're all playing good football this year. It's hard to switch over to the late games and see performances like we're consistently getting from the Timbers. As pointed out in this article, it feels like players aren't even making an effort. And that's super hard to watch.
And it's instructive to note that Cincinnati's identity and drive come after three years of being almost literally the worst team in MLS history. A new coach, new coaching staff, and a better way of identifying talent, along with a new way of playing, has made all the difference for them.
And their fans have been there, loud and passionate, the whole time. I'm happy for them, inasmuch as I really don't care about FC Cincinnati overall.
I have been asking myself that for years. It seems like they are in the mediocrity is good enough mindset. The FO will never be like LAFC. They will never strive for being the best in the west.
Its been this way from the beginning. So often in business, how a culture is from the start is what they are indefinitely. Now the soccer-football is simply a delivery vehicle for peripheral benefits... expensive concessions, data mining, sponsorships, corporate partnerships, MLS revenue sharing, asset wealth and so on. Soccer is secondary, and looking more like it's not even a serious consideration.
Devil's advocate here - In my experience from a true fan's perspective, it doesn't matter how the team performs.
Wins are nice, goals are fun to watch, it gives you a boost to see the team high on the table, and you feel sad when you're low on the table.
BUT you still go to games, you still wear the colors, you still chant and cheer and sing, through thick and thin.
Maybe it's just an American perspective - the team has to collect silver to be considered worthy of fandom?? It is dishonorable to come out lower on the table and therefore not worth fandom?
In most cultures, a soccer team is a cherished lol cal institution - even if they suck, because it is the culture that surrounds the team that is truly important.
And I think for lots of Timbers fans, that's exactly the case. Hence the popularity of the team.
Hold on. What is a "true fan"? How am I not in that special club that apparently you are the curator of? I've been a Timbers season ticket holder since before MLS. I can count the number of home games I've missed in that time on two hands. I go to at least one away game every year, in a different city each season. Am I not a "true fan" just because I want the Timbers to be a dramatically better team than they currently are?
"Maybe it's just an American perspective - the team has to collect silver to be considered worthy of fandom?? It is dishonorable to come out lower on the table and therefore not worth fandom?"
That is not even remotely what I've said, ever. I am not saying that if they don't win a trophy in any given year that that year is a failure. I am saying that a team that has not won a major trophy in almost a decade (MLS is Back was fine, but 2020 is an asterisk of a year in sooooo many ways) should want more out of themselves than that one major trophy. And the front office should be working tirelessly to make sure the Timbers keep up with the leaders of the pack, every single year, no matter what.
The Timbers, as you say, have a large and passionate fanbase, and they've got the potential, in size and revenue, to be one of the teams that is perpetually in the Supporters' Shield conversation. The Timbers could, if they applied their resources, be one of the best teams in the league, year in and year out. THAT is what I want. Trophies are fun, for sure, but the point for me is that they're in the race for trophies all season long, not sitting here in late May going "well, we'll hopefully sneak into the playoffs and then see what happens".
The Timbers should be one of the marquee teams in MLS, for its history and support alone. And yet they're being lapped by teams like Austin, Cincinnati, and other new teams and new energies, and they don't seem bothered by that. And that bothers me.
"In most cultures, a soccer team is a cherished lol cal institution - even if they suck, because it is the culture that surrounds the team that is truly important."
Okay, so: what is the culture surrounding the Timbers right now? From the Timbers side, it's turning into one of coasting on nostalgia and good vibes, one which doesn't prioritize the current team (or the development of the future) as much as it wants everyone to feel good about the past - which, again, contains ONE trophy and one sort-of trophy, and a whole bunch of seasons of indifference.
The MLS Timbers don't care about creating a culture; they're interested in continuing to monetize the "Soccer City USA" culture that other Timbers teams created before this regime showed up, without doing anything of substance to add to that legacy.
I had really hoped that 2015 would be a springboard for the Timbers to turn them into a dominant force in the league; it didn't do that, the Timbers as an org seem fine with that, and that frustrates me to no end.
I guess some of us just go to or watch games to have a good time, and remain loyal despite performance, that's all. I take back the "true fan" part, that's subjective.
And that's fine! People can fan however they want. The idea that there's a "right way" to be a fan is one of the most toxic ideas in all of sports.
I think mostly you are correct. I will always cheer for the Timbers and will be loud in the stadium (and at home) when watching. But their current style of play is just abominable. As a soccer person who wants to see the beautiful game, the Timbers under Gio just arent doing it for me. Sitting back and hoping to not lose may get you some points for ties and the occasional win, but is just not enterntaining. And so though I may cheer for the Timbers, their style of play is loathesome and detracts from the fun of attending/watching the game.
Like others have said. A new coach will not make us contenders or best in the west. Not with roster we have. But a good coach could put out a better style and make us way more competitive. Our last 6 games mls ranks out of 29 teams and results.
14) Minnesota- lost
19) Vancouver- won
21) Austin - draw
22) RSL - Lost and draw
27) skc - lost
Softest part of our schedule and we got 5 points out of a possible 18. How bad does one need to be at their job before you fire them cause at this point a kid playing football manager could do better.
Ned Grabavoy, who needs a grace period to clean up Wilkinson's mess, should meet with each player and ask, "What is it that you think you're supposed to be doing?" Then bring in Gio and ask, "What are you trying to do out there?". Follow that up with the neat Socratic trick, "What do you think you mean by that?" Love to be a fly on the wall for that one. But I don't think anyone has a clue.
It is very clear by now that Gio isn't a system guy. Perhaps he believes the players will play beautifully on their own, perhaps he is just in over his head and had good enough players for 5 years to paper over his shortcomings.. But this team needs some rethinking of assumptions right now because hanging onto 2011-2018's heroes while rebuilding without a system just isn't working at all.
I had a come to the lord moment about gio this weekend. I was thinking why do we play different every game? Then it hit me. Gio is a great tournament coach because he can game plan for a one off. Very adaptable that way. It is great in a tournament. But no one has to game plan for us because we don’t do anything fundamentally. It has to be exhausting being on the team changing up what we do every week to adjust to the competition instead of just being who we are and maybe doing a slight wrinkle.
When Gio came to the Timbers, he was explicit about wanting to be a counterattacking team, and it worked pretty well. Until it didn't, because it turns out it's super easy to defend a counterattacking team, and once the league figured it out, Gio swiveled to...whatever he is now. As you say, he game plans for one-off situations, which again works until that situation is past, then the team is left wondering WTF happens next. No plan, no structure, no cohesive ideas.
oh no he did fucking not, show me where he ever said that
I remember that initial press conference, Gio talking about his binder to beat the Timbers that got him the job, some self-depreciating anecdote about foolishly bringing an umbrella to the barber (did he have more hair then?) and a lot of other banter. The one part I can quote verbatim is when the interviewer asked what system he planned to use, and without any hesitation he quipped "High Press." Followed by a bit of awkward silence.
Obviously, we were unequipped with the personnel to do this, and every 3 months or so, some people would chime in about how we were slowly getting the pieces together to make that happen. I think the counterattacking style was sort of a stop gap, interim tactic that was placeholding for 2 seasons until Adi was traded, Valeri retired, etc etc. But the front office overestimated what Gio was capable of, and we sort of just got stuck with it (let's just say that the Christmas Tree is not a high-press). I think as a morale guy, and spokesman, Gio is great to have around. Maybe a good assistant coach. But he's been over his head a long time now.
Maybe he didn't say it out loud, maybe I'm misremembering, but he ran a 4-2-3-1 his first couple years and many, many news outlets noticed how that formation is ideal for counterattacking, which the Timbers did a lot.
Caitlyn Murray, 2018:
https://theathletic.com/473565/2018/08/14/savarese-sees-signs-of-evolution-not-evidence-of-being-figured-out-in-loss-that-snapped-timbers-unbeaten-streak/
"For 15 straight matches this season, the Portland Timbers were unbeatable. Their compact and organized defend-and-counter style was difficult for opponents to break down and equally as effective at creating goals for Portland on the counterattack."
Also Murray, also 2018:
https://theathletic.com/577058/2018/10/08/after-a-worrying-lull-gio-savarese-hits-on-the-right-formula-as-timbers-near-playoffs-berth/
"It all marked Savarese’s acceptance of what the Timbers are and what they do best. The Timbers are a counterattacking team and he leaned into that—he didn’t try to change them in the name of evolution."
"In the 4-2-3-1, Chara was put into his best spot in the central midfield in a double pivot with David Guzman. No longer cast out wide, Chara could impose himself defensively throughout the middle of the field and Guzman, alongside him, had what was easily his best game of 2018. Together, Chara and Guzman accounted for 13 recoveries—or, in other words, 13 counterattacking opportunities."
So even if he didn't say the words - and that's my bad, I thought he did - that's clearly how he was setting them up to play, and to a limited extent it worked. They don't even try that style any more, they're just a disorganized mess.
My memory of Gio's philosophy coming in was "possession oriented, front foot, attacking soccer." He inherited a team that had been drilled into a very strong counterattacking force during Porter's "pragmatic" phase. I saw Gio eventually accepting that identity and riding the abilities of prime Valeri\Blanco and the team identity they were comfortable with. I agree that currently it looks like all sense of top to bottom structure and identity is gone, and without top end attacking players who are deadly in transition, the results have evaporated as well. We simply don't have a creative leader to execute killer counters like e used to. Yimmi is more of a support, Moreno hasn't fully figured out the player he's meant to become, Evander is being asked to develop and impose his vision as a 10 on the fly, and the result is looking incoherent. I actually think this personnel is more suited to possess and unlock teams if they trained for it, and having Williamson back in the mix with Evander Moreno Yimmi and a DP forward could be a good look. But right now, we don't know how we want to press and defend, and we don't know how we want to attack. Consistently giving up possession is one thing if you're high pressing and countering like Philly while keeping a tight backline, but we look utterly disorganized and unable to cover when we play a high line, and give up too much space and too many shots when we try to concede possession and counter. Giving up so much of the ball when you can't be deadly in transition at pace is a brutal thing to watch.
Nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah Hey goodbye!
Should be the army chant to gio at every home game
I'm not going to get on the "Gio Out" bandwagon that seems to be gaining momentum, but I have to wonder why, with big matches coming up, Chara and Paredes were still on the pitch at the final whistle in a match that was an obvious loss by the 70th minute?!? Those guys need rest but are instead getting run into the ground. Is our depth truly that poor in central midfield? Loria couldn't do a shift at the 8?
I suspect Gio didn't want to throw the only sub, a T2 guy recently signed as emergency depth after Ayala and Williamson went down with season ending injuries, available to replace Chara or Paredes to the wolves. There is nobody else out there who can play the 6, and if he takes them both out and puts a totally inexperienced guy in the single pivot it could have put Mabs in an even more precarious position (if that is possible).
Fair point. I’m just increasingly horrified at our depth and roster management.
You can toss out any concern re: managing minutes and player rotation. Gio has shown that it doesn't interest him. Full steam ahead!
So if you're not on the Gio out bandwagon, and yet you're horrified at roster management, I have to ask: all the questions you pose in your comment are literally coaching decisions. How many times have we seen that scenario or something similar, as far as subs, play out in the last couple seasons? And if the answer is more than the one you quoted, how are you not even remotely curious about a post-Gio Timbers future?
I don't ask that to start a fight, I'm genuinely curious what it would take for you to be GioOut if repeated iterations of Sunday's sub/lack of sub patterns don't do it.
This is a manager who took us to the finals twice, so I’m not ready to write him off yet. I’m also conscious of how riddled with injury we are. Many of Gio’s roster decisions have been questionable to me without necessarily being fatally bad. I’m more concerned specifically about D Chara (our only healthy 6!) being asked to play the full 90 in a game we’ve already lost. Loria could totally have done the last 20 mins at the 6…
The first final he "took" the Timbers to was Caleb Porter's team. And they got overrun.
The second final he took the Timbers to, they were completely outplayed for most of the actual final; that late goal was spectacular, but the Timbers weren't prepared for what NYCFC was going to do and were second best most of the day. That's not enough for me.
"I’m also conscious of how riddled with injury we are"
That was the case in February and March. That is not the case now.
To be fair, we are missing both Williamson and Ayala to season ending injuries. We should have solid depth at the MF but that boat has sailed. While it would have been nice to have a 5th MF with MLS experience, the team chose to bolster the attack due to Mora and Blanco's injury situation. I think it was a reasonable gamble, it just didn't work out.
The FO didn't do the job in the offseason and now the team basically isn't competitive in MLS. NIezgoda isn't even a starter but has over cap hit salary. Boli is meh as the new guy so far. Evander is still adjusting, but hasn't been consistently amazing. Blanco can barely play sadly due to injury. They don't have a good or deep backline, and now the team is just bad.
They have to get rid of underperforming players and sign a really good 9 and get a new CB and midfielder. Until they have a solid 9 this team is always going to be meh or worse. The FO has a lot of work to do, but man it's not even worth watching these games till they do something about it. Just a terrible organization right now altogether.
"They have to get rid of underperforming players and sign a really good 9 and get a new CB and midfielder."
Almost none of that can happen until this winter, after the season, because again, the Timbers have essentially zero cap room/flexibility right now to do anything but marginal tweaks around the edges. Unless they can find some chump team to take Mabiala/Niezgoda off the Timbers' hands, we're stuck with this roster until after the season. Thanks for the parting gifts, Gavin!
They could easily buy out Niezgoda, use the season ending injury on Wiliams, and buy down Blanco to be TAM. Then they have a DP spot to use and they have money for a midfielder. After Tuilloma being sold, they should have cap space and resources to sign a starting quality CB. They should have done that all in the offseason, but they didn't.
I think you're right it's 2024 before they really can rebuild fully, but a starting quality DP 9 a new starting CB and a good 6/8 that can help the midfield and this team is a lot better than it currently is.
They supposedly had room to sign and were shopping a young DP forward and a CB in the off-season. Then sold Tuiloma on top of it, as though they were really going to make a move. Then didn't and now we have mabiala singlehandedly giving away games. Yes there's a lot of dead weight in this roster but they said they were in the market to make moves and had the ability, and did nothing. I was optimistic when they brought in Evander but failing to support him by improving the spine of the team is a very bad way to start life for your new franchise player.
Frankly despite the budget issues the Timbers could add should have made moves before the end of the season. Look at what SL City has done this year--they built a team on the cheap from mostly distressed assets, and gave them an identity to run with. Other teams have gone this route with some success--Colorado and Salt Lake, for stretches, to name two. Portland has been very bad over the years at finding talent from within the league and taking advantage of experience to create solid depth on a budget. The team has a strong preference for international players, has often brought in unknown foreign guys and put them through an adjustment period with low \mixed success, rather than shopping domestically, and our academy has given us virtually nothing. That has absolutely got to change and whether Grabavoy recognizes that and does something about it, starting this summer, will tell us a lot about whether he can turn things around.
Yep, we desperately need to exploit the domestic market much much more. Really effective players can be bought for cheap (compared to international players) and have a lower salary. I think Eric Miller has been a pretty good signing, he’s been effective when called upon and is cheap. Knows the league, knows the team, and knows his role. Imagine if we had him instead of Van Rankin last year
They are not going to buy out Niezgoda. Teams around MLS rarely use buyouts because they're expensive as hell, and buying out a DP is even more so. We are stuck with him until this winter.
I don't think they'll do it either because it costs a lot. They also likely had no takers in the offseason as no one would want that contract. However, if they cared about the product on the pitch they would. They can still get a good CB in the summer and sign another good 6/8 with Williamson on the season ending injury list. We'll see what they can do.
Yes, A voice of reason. need to wait to clear roster and do it aggressively and with no pity and then reload. Resigning blanco and mabs 2 years ago hamstringed the FO until the end of this year. Since then the FO has been on fire. Moreno, Mosquera, Evander, Bravo. this is the making of a solid team. anyone else that hasn't improved over the last 2 years should also be considered to let go. Mora, Goda, Loria, Bonilla....eyes on you. Lots of roster spots to fill but if your not getting any better than being in younger player who is hungry with potential and give them the run. they don't improve mix the kettle again. Our roster development has been too stagnant.
Can't like this too much, Beckenbauer. All of it makes sense.
Gotta be ruthless to clear the roster the way it NEEDS to be done. Especially "...anyone else that hasn't improved over the last 2 years should also be considered to let go. Mora, Goda, Loria, Bonilla".... To me, Mora and Williamson, because of their injuries, now rate very critical/skeptical scrutiny to judge if they'll even be able to return to being top quality MLS players. If not, we should move on from one or both.
And it's imperative to cut further because most of the current bench is not even spot MLS quality. Axe Rasmussen, Bonilla, Gutierrez and Mabiala, and resign Nathan only if he agrees to a T2 contract. All are readily replaceable for better players with higher upsides at minimally more $$.
The last and largest change? This offseason may well be time for a completely new coaching staff. That's a whole separate topic.
Nathan is on a near league minimum salary. For a third string striker, that’s perfect. Don’t think we’re gonna find a better player for that much more money. He’s young, hungry, plays with passion, and has some raw talent
You got a point, JJTimber.
I matched his profile against Ikoba's, and chose Ikoba based on his age, size and projected upside... for that upside to come about he has to practice and get minutes with the first team.
Thinking the 2024 #1 & 2 strikers are Boli and Mora right now. If Mora can't return to that level he should go and we're looking for a #9 again (sigh)...
Boli is signed to a one year contract that expires in December. I have a feeling that they'll bring someone in, either as a DP/YDP or as a TAM-level player.
EDIT: I see JJ Timber beat me to that...hahaha.
I like Boli enough and think he’s the clear #1 as of now but he almost certainly won’t be here past this year. He’s just a stopgap until we get a young DP #9 either in the summer or next off season. YDP will be #1, then Mora as a backup if he ever recovers (I mean who even knows at this point), and Nathan and Ikoba are both cheap depth options. Each striker brings something different
Is there any hope for the team in summer transfers? (Incidentally, what's the best place to track these things?)
Niezgoda should be starting, but I think Gio put a hit on his confidence.
Should be starting a new career...
Wut!?
Even when he's a clinical finisher he doesn't have the physicality and tool set on the ball to be a starting MLS 9.
Nailed it Zach. I think people get too excited by the idea that Niezgoda is smart and technical. Yes, he is. But in MLS, you have to have the basic athleticism and work rate to bring all that into play, and he hasn't shown that since his injury. It's unfortunate: I don't know if he lost a step, or confidence, or what, but anymore he feels like the old guy who in theory can take the shot if you leave him open but no one does and so he's just out there jogging for the most part. Even on set pieces, he's less a scorer than a flick on guy, because he just doesn't have the physicality of people who score with their head in MLS.
I'll just throw it out here, as well, that I'm a little worried still about Evander falling into this category. He can do crazy cool things with the ball, but he has to demand it and fight for more of it, and I'm not sure he has the physical attributes or at least the personality type to do that in MLS. Here the Valeri comparison is good: Valeri was always astonishingly slow as a professional soccer player, but he still had enough aggression and other physical abilities to get involved and get his shots. Eventually, his lack of pace caught up with him. But for a while there, obviously, he had enough to bring his skills into play.
MLS is not a league that rewards technical skill and soccer smarts, in and of themselves.
He's technical in the final third and crafty, and he can certainly head the ball as we've seen in the past. He's our best option right now, imo. I was excited for Boli, but he's not shown me too much. I'd like to see Niezgoda get some real minutes with some real players around him - like Blanco and Fogaca and Evander.
Sure, give him a start if he's working hard in practice and showing something. He had 9G 2A in 1900+ minutes. Asprilla had 10G 2A 1800+ minutes. He had a decent start in 2020, but outside of that last year was his best. A non striker out performing you in less minutes doesn't warrant a DP deal or really a TAM deal. If he'd played well at all in 2023 I think he'd get minutes as we don't really have other options that are really looking great. Boli is meh.
Yeah, I thought Niezgoda looked terrible to start the year, but then he started to knock some in and it looked like he was gaining confidence, but without regular minutes, it's probably difficult to perform well. A striker, or any player, needs to know they can screw up now and then and know that the coach will still play you, imo, as long as you are scoring or playing well overall. It just looks like Gio has his guy in Boli now. But, I don't think it's working with him. It's not just him, it's the wing play, too, that is not firing because they aren't good wingers.
For a moment when Blanco, Niezgoda and Fogaca came in, the Timbers were controlling the game for about five minutes and had generated some chances, and then Evander turned it over with a bad pass and they were chasing once again.
Now and again? He literally hasn’t been good since he got injured a few years ago. It’d be nice if Blanco was healthy and could play more but I’m confused on the Fogaca idea as he’s not really a winger and isn’t going till be great in possession or defending. Idk. If Niezgoda played well consistently he’d be starting. He got several starts to start the season and we looked to be playing with 9. I guess I’m just saying the guy who is barely able to play to knee pain, the league minimum 3rd string striker, and the underperforming striker for a couple years aren’t probably the answer to winning. They’re missing some talent.
Somebody ought to figure out how many goals we have given up when Mabiala has played, and consequently, how many losses, etc. we have suffered. Then, we could go back to the offseason and wonder why in the h-e double hockey sticks we didn't find another CB that we could put in there when one of our first two CBs are out, and, to totally ensure no eff ups, release him altogether? Sorry, but this is something I will not understand, ever.
We had Bill who was awesome and sold him for nothing, I'm still mad about that. Also can't Eric Miller play CB? Anyone but Mabs.
They didn't sell him for nothing. They sold him for $800K in TAM (and a 15% sell-on fee if he's sold outside MLS), which they then used to buy down a few players on the roster and start to clean up the mess the prior regime made of the payroll.
It was a necessary move, financially, but it was really unfortunate that it was necessary in the first place.
Ah thanks.
I'm still mad about it because we need another CB. Unbelievable we still hold onto Mabiala.
Oh, I'm still mad about it too, don't get me wrong. It sucks that GW and his people didn't care enough about long-term roster flexibility to even allow for the possibility of keeping one of the most solid CB's the Timbers have had in years. I totally understand why the move was made, I'm just still salty that it had to be made in the first place. But they had no choice this past winter but to sell what was sellable, if they wanted to do anything.
I suppose we could have mutually agreed to part ways with Mabs, but that would have only been half the money we needed to get off the books and no TAM coming our way. GW left with a huge TAM deficit and only a very few players who were valuable enough commodities to trade for that amount of TAM. Choices were essentially Tuiloma, Paredes, Williamson, Mosquera, Moreno, Bravo, McGraw, perhaps Ivacic. Tuiloma's similar salary to the above, age of 27-28, and proven MLS starter made him the trade target worth the most.
As RCTEyeDee says, we didn't have enough TAM to meet obligations to players not named Mabiala or Tuiloma (or one of the other names above), therefore someone had to be moved for the cash to meet salary cap / TAM obligations made by the former guy.
Ah gotcha. I would've kept Bill and traded Williamson or Paredes- but i don't run any teams. Seems like we had enough mids. Glad Paredes is playing better again, sad for Eric's ACL but he seems to be healing up quick.
the FO didn't do the job for like 4 freaking seasons running lmao
Can't really argue with that.
This team is just a brutal watch, week in and week out.
So true. I mean, it is chaos week in and week out. Not sustainable.
Part of it is personnel on the field that is playing and they are not good enough and part of it is coaching. It is just awful.
I still maintain that a new coach could get more out of this roster, even as messy of a roster as it is in parts. I am under no illusions that a new coach could make them MLS Cup contenders this year, don't get me wrong, but a new coach could make them competitive in games like this where in recent years they just get boatraced.
I hate to agree with this, but I simply have to. While I like Gio, the team just isn't playing well. There are enough pieces here for the team to be a decent squad, but right now it simply isn't performing. The team was listless against SKC, and that was the most dissapointing thing. If the players are tired, and I think they are, then the subs need to be playing.
I've listed about 8 players on the team that I think are the core going forward, and 6 of them are healthy. That should be enough to field a competative team. But we are only seeing that less than 50% of the time. That needs to be better. Also, with the youth on the team we should be a better pressing team. Only D Chara is older and doesn't have a backup, so there isn't a good reason not to play with some intensity. Gio has been here for 6 years, and in that time his message has probably gotten stale. While I don't advocate for change all the time, it is probably time to move on and forward on the coaching staff. We simply are not seeing the results on the field, and that is telling me the coaches aren't getting the job done.
I'd be optimistic if the Timbers made a play for Berhalter. I realize he may want to try to go back to Europe take another far-flung international gig like Bradley did, but he's one of the best available coaching candidates out there, clearly knows how to implement structure, but also has enough clubs in the bag to adjust, he knows the league, and now he can add world cup experience to his perspective.
I would love that move for its ambition alone. I'd also love to see them make a run at Jesse Marsch. Either of the two would be a great signal that the Timbers want to be dramatically better than they are.
I personally find Marsch kinda overrated and I'm not that into watching red bull soccer. He definitely has international experience at a high level at this point that could translate back to MLS and I could see it jump starting young players but my preference would be for a team that wants to possess, knows how to counterrpress against the right opponents. We know for certain Berhalter knows how to build those teams, but the attacking phase was a huge criticism of Marsch at Leeds.
I don't think it's really fair to judge Marsch at Leeds all that harshly (harschly?). He had a roster that didn't really fit the style he wanted to play, he said "I need players that will play the way I want", then Leeds went out and got several of those players...and fired Marsch like five days after the end of the transfer window.
So I think it's fair to say he didn't really have a chance to coach "his" team there at all, and if he were hired at the Timbers, he could have immediate input into transfers starting this winter.
I'd be fine with Berhalter too, I'm not ride or die for Marsch - I just mostly want a top-shelf coach who is not Gio at this point.
RCTEyeDee, making a change of direction isn't just replacing the Head, it's also changing most, if not all the coaching staff.
Otherwise it's just a Band-aid that'll need to be changed again soon. That's a major disruption that should wait until the offseason unless the wheels totally come off, and we'll see about that possibility soon.
It's worth noting the entire coaching staff got extensions when Ridgewell was added this past November. That would add to the expense and disruption of a coaching change.
Last, if we see a mid-season new coach as the immediate need, one of the current staff is the least disruptive interim change... who could be the guy to fill that role?
"if we see a mid-season new coach as the immediate need, one of the current staff is the least disruptive interim change."
Yes, I agree. And I'm fine with that. I've said it before: make Ridgewell the interim coach and spend the rest of this season finding a full-time replacement, who starts the day after the Timbers' season ends and has input in the winter transfer window.
"That would add to the expense and disruption of a coaching change."
MLS assistant coaches make less than or just over six figures, generally. Their salaries/severance packages - including Gio's - would be a rounding error for a company that's worth more than $600M. They can afford it.
What evidence do we have that Ridgewell would make a good coach, even on an interim basis? Yes, he's a defensive assistant coach for the club right now. But the the defense is a train wreck, and as far as I know, he doesn't have any other coaching experience. I just don't know why people keep bringing him up as an option for the head job.
We have none! But the key words there are "interim coach", so it doesn't really matter. He might be terrible. He might be adequate. He might be decent. But as I've said before, honestly, right now, whether it's him, Llamosa, or (insert random name here), almost literally anyone can coach this team for 19 more games while/until a permanent coach is found.
Interim coaches are interim for a reason. They're placeholders. Almost anyone can hold that place, be it for 4-5 games or 20. They have to know how to coach on a basic level, sure, but they don't really need to be anything but Not The Guy They Just Fired, because all they're doing is keeping the lights on until the new person moves in, as it were.
Whether it's Ridgewell, Llamosa, or hell, let Borchers do it the way GW used to when he'd fire a coach, it doesn't really matter, because this season is a hot mess anyway; an interim coach isn't going to do any worse than Gio did on Sunday. And the permanent coach that follows soon after will almost certainly do better.
I agree.
I also think if Gio put the right players out there (which, of course, is coaching), that he could be getting some results.
I'd be interested to see what a new coach would do with the roster. Are you suggesting that he play the same starting lineup but with different (i.e some) tactics and he would get different results?
I say different lineup and a plan and this team would be romping most teams in the league.
I'm sure it's demoralizing as a player to play with someone who can't get the job done. And yet, Gio keeps putting the same players out there week in and week out. There's enough talent on this team imo to curb stomp the SKCs of the league.
I wouldn't say "different results" in terms of "they'll automatically win more", but I do think that a 4-1 loss might be a 2-1 or 2-2 and might be a more interesting game to watch.
I'm not naive enough to think that a new coach equals an instant 180 degree turnaround in results, but Gio's been around for what, 6 years now? Which means his coaching sessions are muscle memory, and I wouldn't be surprised to know that players have tuned out a lot but the most current-opponent-specific things he says, just because they've heard them a bazillion times before. That's just human nature.
So a new coach wouldn't make this an entirely new team, but it might make the current team a bit more fun to watch, and as you say it might open up the team to having some current mostly-bench players play, and maybe getting some improved performances, if not different results.
Agree. A new coach will not make this team a contender. You have a realistic expectation of outcome. But I could definitely see a coach put out a better product that keeps us competitive around the 4-6 mark.
I see a good squad in starting 11. Not awesome but good. What I see though is 11 players playing their own game and just reacting on the go.
There is quality on the squad, but the team needs to play with a little more urgency and the players need someone similar to Valeri or Blanco in the prime of their careers to lead the attack. That might be Evander, but new players often take time to reach their potential, or Williamson, but he can’t help right now due to his injury. Also, the team has to play better on defense, partly by replacing Mabiala as a regular/backup and also by tracking and marking better. It’s great that Ayala before his injury and Paredes since then have shown signs of significant improvement. But neither contributes a huge amount on offense, although Paredes works hard to help out in the final third. And Mora has been out for a long time with his injury and Neizgoda has struggled to fully adjust to not having Valeri and Blanco. Boli is a good fill-in but he also needs better play around him.
They also need an MLS starting quality 9. That's been a huge hole in their roster now for a while. First, it was Ebobisse playing on the wing while Niezgoda and Mora got time up top, and Mora was fairly good, but Niezgoda hasn't shown well in a long time with any consistency and he doesn't have the physicality or the skills to go 1v1 anywhere like other players do. I still say this is their biggest attacking issue, but they are also playing with 1 DP. You kind of need at least 2 good DPs and a solid backline to be good in this league. We don't have that.
comments about players are honestly moot, it is YEAR SIX of this nonsense, the roster is a result of the FO and Gio, if it is a mess it is on THEM. Stop taking it out on players who have no idea what the plan is and are constantly BEING MISPLAYED.
The FO buys a square peg for a round hole and everyone is like "WHY ISN'T THAT SQUARE PEG PLAYING LIKE A ROUND PEG" pure ignorance
I honestly don't know what is worse at this point, the FO, the coach, or a fanbase that pretends to know what it is talking about and placates the stupidity of the former
"a fanbase that pretends to know what it is talking about"
I have always found that the best way to ingratiate yourself into a community is to insult them. How do you know you know more about the game than anyone else here? What makes you the expert?
You can make your points - with which I agree a lot of the time! - and not be rude about it. Please try.
What do you see as the role of the fan base? As I've mentioned elsewhere the duty of the fans is simply to support the team, through thick and thin, no matter what. And not much more than that.
I mean, I don't look at being a fan as a "duty", so I'm not sure I can answer your question properly. I am not, however, as unquestioning as you in my fandom; if I think the team can/should be better, I see no reason I shouldn't express that, just as much as I express how happy I am when they are good. I pay for a season ticket, and for that payment, I would like to be entertained by the team more than I currently am.
Does that mean I'm going to stop going? No, I'm in this for the long haul. I'm there either way; I'm just not going to blindly be all YAY SPORTS when I keep seeing terrible play with no direction or purpose. I think it's fair to demand better from the team, even if "demand better" is just venting here and still going to games and jumping and clapping and singing for victory.
Point well taken
Seattle lost last night at home to San Jose, making that three home losses in May for them. They aren’t doing so hot
This week ain’t all bad
I've been checked out since the team gave up that last second goal at home. I am just disgusted with this team. I've had four season tickets for the last dozen years and honestly am not sure if I want to keep doing this. I like most of our players but I don't like the results. I'm now fully on board with the GIO GO gang. Sure, let's let Ridgy give it a go. I live the guy. Maybe even go find someone who's really experienced and successful in the manager's role. Is anyone like that out there? And where the hell is our owner these days? He used to be so engaged......
The Timbers' owner is currently throwing a hissy fit after everyone wanted him to sell the team. A hissy fit that is basically YOU WANTED ME TO NOT BE INVOLVED THIS IS WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE SUCK IT YOU POORS, and is at this point doing literally nothing but approving payroll. He has no compelling financial reason to sell, so he's letting the team stagnate until he's bored enough to turn his dad's $35M into the 650M+ he would get for selling the team. The Timbers are owned by giant failson Kendall fucking Roy, and it's hugely maddening.
Or at least that's what it looks like.
Worth $650 million on paper and, currently, not worth much of anything on the field. MP, if you're paying attention any more, that big number could shrink quickly.
San Diego just paid a $500 million entry fee to join MLS. That number isn't shrinking. It never shrinks.
But if MP was honest about his "hands off" promise, Ned will come in tomorrow and say "I want to fire Gio" and it will happen, and someone will call MP at home and tell him the news. It desperately needs to happen, but we'll see.
Problem is that Ned already admitted he botched the offseason and early transfer window. He fires Gio and he does nothing but turn his seat hot.
wait what? When did he "admit" that? Also, he literally just got the job full time in January. There's no way his job is even remotely in danger right now, he hasn't been in the job long enough to make a difference one way or the other yet. His first window was full of stopgap signings and the sale of Tuiloma to make cap space, as he tries to fix the mess that GW made of the roster; I would argue that given his constraints, his first winter window was...fine.
Of all the problems the Timbers have, I really don't think Ned is on the list.
https://www.oregonlive.com/timbers/2023/04/mls-transfer-deadline-portland-timbers-shift-focus-to-summer-after-pursuing-additional-defender.html
Just in case this is behind a pay wall, let me pull the quote.
“We were vocal when we traded Bill that it was obviously a major priority and necessity to lock up a center back,” Grabavoy said. “For us, we’re not gonna shy away from the fact that we didn’t accomplish that. I take ownership of that. At the same time, looking at the approach that we took and the players we were looking at on the international market, the player we were prioritizing is still very much a strong option for us. It’s just the ability to land that player now and have that player for the next stretch."
Basically, he knew once Bill got sold, CB was a big priority and he didn't get it done. He knows that this roster is not up to snuff.
I agree that Ned is far from the problem. and At the same time, how does he explain to a new hire why he let the last guy go when he admitted it was his fault a glaring need wasn't filled?
There's not a direct line between "Ned didn't sign a position of need in one window" and "That will cost this team a good coach post-Gio", though. The Timbers have been needing to move on from Gio for a while now, and I'm not sure that one missed signing in one window is going to be a big impediment to bringing someone else in.
Not that anyone played a good game for the Timbers, however Evander, who seemed pretty full of himself after his brace so long ago, had virtually no impact on the Timber’s attack. I hope he doesn’t just end up another Yimmi Chara, clearly talented but infrequently impactful. Why did everyone seem so disinterested, especially in the second half?
No tenacity, no intensity, no commitment to what they’re being asked to do. These players aren’t giving it all they the way a Jim Curtin or the St.Louis coach (name escapes me) team gets from it’s players. I get a kick out of folks here who say this guy or that guy can’t coach the Timbers because he’s not ready, he’s too inexperienced. Well, look at Gio, he came from a loaded second tier team where he didn’t have to manage. He wasn’t ready for this job, and six years later, he still isn’t ready. He can’t adjust or he won’t adjust. Same difference in the end. Time to make a change before we end up in Earthquakes of a few years ago territory.
"No tenacity, no intensity, no commitment to what they’re being asked to do"
What if...this IS what they're being asked to do? That's my problem. Gio is not a good coach, and hasn't been for a few seasons now. It's time to change. Let Ridgewell take the reins until the end of the season and then bring in someone who knows how to build a team for the entire season, not just a miraculous eight game stretch towards the end.
Yes, at some point the FO has to realize that the value of their young, skilled players are diminishing under Gio because they look like shit week in and week out. It makes much more sense to eat Gio's contract than let their player investments go to waste.
I just don't think it would be Ridgewell, based on his lack of experience. He only just joined his very first top tier coaching staff. It would probably be Llamosa, who I've always assumed was here to be a defensive expert, and given our frequently shambolic defending I'm pretty worried either he or Ridgewell would tank worse than Gio for the rest of this year. Who led the team when Gio was out sick a couple weeks ago?
Um, this is also Gio's first 'top-tier' coaching gig. As it was Porter's. Also should note that Ridgy has played at a higher level and been coached at a higher level than anyone else currently on PTFC staff.
Llamosa did.
Yeah, I mean, I'm on the verge of punting this year entirely, so it could be Ridgewell, it could be Llamosa, it could be Sam the Kit Man for all I care. It mostly doesn't matter because they'd only be here until the end of the season, so anyone on the staff would be fine as a placeholder. It just needs to not be Gio.
I'd be interested to see how Llamosa would change things up from Gio-ball. While out on sick leave, I'm sure Carlos needed to follow Gio's instructions. I'll bet, more hoping, Carlos would have his own views/methods/systems he feels would be an improvement. Assuming he's not already advising his ways to Gio and both are to fault for the mess we have. On second thought, Carlos and Gio have been together before their time with our Timbers. More than likely, their methods are the same. Maybe Liam is the interim answer if it ever comes down to it...
[Too slow to edit] On second thought, Carlos and Gio have been together well before their time with our Timbers. More than likely their methods are one in the same. Maybe Liam would be the interim answer if it ever came down to it...
There's enough talent to win games. He just isn't playing the right guys. Time for a new coach. His personnel decisions and in game management is atrocious. The only thing I can say after watching this game regarding his coaching that I agreed with was he brought in Fogaca, Niezgoda and Blanco in for offense. I've been dreaming of this for about a month. The only problem was he brought in offense when they were down 3-1 and with only 10 minutes to go. Idiot!
Fogaca- he looked as lively and talented as I remember him cutting through Seattle's defense en route to a 4-1 win - only to languish on the bench for the next month. I'm telling you, he looks like Eden Hazard on the wing out there. Why Gio insists on starting Dairon - the bike legend - week in and week out I'll never know. Asprilla is great to bring on when you need something crazy to happen, but when you need someone to threaten the back line in myriad ways, bring in Fogaca. He's way more talented than he is given credit for.
Blanco - poor guy. He didn't even touch the ball in the 10 minutes and stoppage time he was in for. Evander couldn't even spray a ball out to him on the wing, and he got called for a hand ball, and the one time Fogaca dimed one out to him on the wing, I can't remember what happened but it was beautiful.
Niezgoda got put in on goal and nearly scored immediately upon coming on. I fear Gio has messed with his confidence because his boy Boli came into town. Granted, Niezgoda wasn't performing well, but I think he's our best hope at this point. If anyone thinks he could have scored the header that Boli missed at the half (why no mention of this or not even in the highlights), then you are with me on this thought.
Yes, Boli scored, and I appreciate all goals, but let's be honest and say that it wasn't any run of play goal, but off a throw in sequence.
Mabiala aside, our offense sucks. No threat. Start Fogaca left wing, Niezgoda up top and Blanco on the right wing. Give them more than 10 minutes. If they don't perform, then I'll shut up.
Nieazgoda ain't it and hasn't been since he got here. He was a terrible signing. Just his injury history alone should not have put him in contention to be signed as a dp. He was a Tam player or move on kind of guy. He has for years proven he can't perform in mls or just doesn't want to anymore. Both boli and Nathan (who I think is our best 9 at this moment just based on hustle) are better players.
Like I said when reports came out during blancos contract negotiations, "because he hasn't had surgery but they found issues with his knee in a x-ray and he failed a physical elsewhere, he probably has no cartlige in his knee. Which means inflammation and pain." It was rumored that he can't play without his knee swelling up. Essentially his career is over and he is riding out his contract. Which is a "thank you" from the FO to him instead of releasing him. Any minutes he gets now is a "this game is over " decision.
Also, have you watched Hazard? Nathan is no hazard. Unless you mean today's hazard.
All right then, wait till next year seems to be the cry.
I'm thinking of right now when the summer breezes are kicking in and the drum of the north end is booming, not the drip, drip, drip of the off season.
Keep starting Asprilla then, and Yimmi on the wing and Boli, and keep watching them struggle to score. They don't even get quality chances, let alone score.
Or, let Niezgoda play, a player who obviously knows how to connect with other players, has an elevated game, a thinking man's game, a creative game. Let Nathan play on the wing, who knows how to connect with Niezgoda, who can get his shot off on his own, who is more than hustle. The guy is exciting to watch. Let Blanco play 60, fine, and then bring on someone else.
I vote for change!
I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most ignorant posts i have seen. Like, are you new to nieazgoda on this team or are you his agent? Cause he doesn't connect with his teammates. Like ever. Can't outrun any defender. Can't hold up play, at all. And constantly makes the wrong run around the box. The guy has been terrible for us for years. Like not even TAM level numbers. Ffs Nathan who is 80k a year has better stats than he does with less time. Your bias for whatever reason is obvious but most fans who have watched him fail us year after year know that he is terrible and should have been shipped out last year, let alone this year.
Niezgoda just isn't good, and hasn't been for like 2 years. Fogaca isn't a winger and shouldn't be started over a more experienced Asprilla, who is a more complete player. Also Asprilla looked better last season than Niezgoda as a striker and that's him playing out of position. Blanco isn't fit for 90 and probably not even 60. Honestly there's a real chance he's totally done, but if not he's probably no where near what he once was. You're not solving the attack with those guys.
The issue is we don't have a starting quality 9. We only have one DP playing and he's adjusting to a league with team that hasn't ever gelled due to injuries. You put a quality DP 9 up top like Fernandez was before his drug issues derailed him here and the team would be immediately improved and better in the attack.
Another issue is Yimmi hasn't played much this year and hasn't really been effective. Essentially the FO has made commitments or overcommitted salary to a lot of players who for one reason or another are just underperforming or not able to play. I never saw Yimmi as a strong DP, and with Blanco out and Niezgoda not being good for a while now, we have one true DP and some very talented TAM and younger players like Bravo, Mosquera, Paredes, Moreno, and even Ivacic. I just think you need guys who are going to come in and take on the leadership roles and the weight that comes with that. We don't have that, and while Gio for sure could be doing better with who he has, the FO screwed up 2023 by not getting their job done, and loading the team up with higher payed players that aren't performing.
I loved Fernandez, too, but that's history. I'm dealing with the here and now. Why not Fogaca at wing? Why are you locking him in at forward? The Timbers need offense, so why not get two forwards in there and put the smaller guy out at wing and let him cut in and rip. This seems so simple to me.
Yimmi has 1G/2A in 252 minutes (only 3 games started). In his short minutes he’s probably been our most effective player (not that I’d expect him to keep that pace up with more minutes but the guy has been good when he’s played)
Which is fine but that limited stat line in no way justifies a DP status/salary for him.
Was just giving the stats to illustrate that he has been effective when he’s played this year
True but Asprilla has 2G 1A in a couple hundred more minutes. Yimmi has never seemed like a 10G 20A over a season player. He’s never come close to double digits in any category. Seems more like a solid TAM level contributor. However, even if he’s not a top MLS DP it’s really just been injuries holding him back from being effective consistently.
Mabs and Bravo made huge impacts ... For SKC. My favorite part was the half turn star jump from 5 yards away. Is there any possible way to ensure getting megged than jump turning with your legs spread? The slow jog while watching a player fire a goal in from far was also nice. Mabs goal was just icing on the shitcake
The second half was really bad. Mabiala, who played a pretty good first half while man-marking Shalloi for almost the entire 45 minutes, returned to his ineffective play in the second half. I haven’t looked at the second 45 minutes again to see if Shalloi just switched sides of the field, but Mabiala should have moved with him or been replaced. Mabiala is not a good a starter, even when McGraw or Zuparic can’t play. He just messes up in every game and is a step or two slower than he needs to be. As for the midfielders and forwards, the second half featured only a small number of attacks … and even fewer promising attacks.