Gio's abilities are purely reliant on the strength of the roster and/or individual performances. He's not a coach who can get a team to play as more than the sum of their parts. PTFC has hit its ceiling with him at the helm. Unless some players get hot or lightning strikes with new signings, this team is going nowhere with his leadership. Looking pretty dismal.
“Gio's abilities are purely reliant on the strength of the roster and/or individual performances. He's not a coach who can get a team to play as more than the sum of their parts.”
It's both, but I mostly blame coaching. I mean, this roster definitely has a ceiling, they're not going to set the league on fire any time soon, but look at all the loose passing and positional errors this team consistently and repeatedly does - that's all on the coaching staff. Those are mistakes that should be able to be coached out of players, even at this level, and they keep happening.
Changing a coach isn't a magic bullet, and it won't solve every problem the Timbers have, but it is also necessary at this point I think. If not right now, definitely by Leagues Cup time if this team keeps being what we saw yesterday.
Then, next year's roster overhaul, with some big money and aging-out players coming off the books, Ned can basically start fresh and reconstitute this team for the next era of (hopefully) much more success.
If evaluating Gio using passing and player positions, I’m fine with him at this point. Anyone watching the Timbers over the last 6 years understands that the teams under his tutelage have been solid passing teams and positionally aware. He’ll straighten it out.
There is no way that the late 2021, 2022, or this year's Timbers can be described as "solid passing" or "positionally aware". The latter is true particularly on the defensive side. This team desperately needs MORE positional awareness.
Frankly even if there are better coaches available than Gio, making a change at this point would probably be wasteful. In the short term that would leave an assistant- (Llamosa? Miles Joseph?) at the helm we have little reason to believe would steer things in a better direction this year. Considering we're currently in a playoff position, firing a winning coach without another direction to go in immediately is probably throwing away 2\3rds of a season.
Moreover, the organization is in such a period of transition right now that they're probably Ill-equipped from the top down to make a coaching change coherently at the moment. We JUST hired a technical director. Our new GM is in his first year and already biffed the off-season transfer window big time. He's clearly "still learning" but i don't feel like Grabavoy is a guy the Timbers should be banking on as GM long term. He was only ok as a player, I can't think of much evidence he did a lot for us as a scout, and so far signs suggest he isn't a contract genius either.
Honestly until the rest of the Timbers organization gets their pieces on the same page I think Gio is pretty safe and possibly more valuable than fans realize. A lot more goes into a big rebuild than just a coach. If we can come up with a better coach with a better vision for the development of this team and give him resources (2 new DPs and some cap space) I'm all for making that move--I just don't think it's going to come together like that before the summer window, and if we make q big signing in the summer, I imagine that buys Gio more time...
He's just not going anywhere right now, I don't think.
That's why I think Gio should go at the end of this season, no matter what. I don't think he should be fired right now, unless things go catastrophically wrong before the Leagues Cup break, but I don't want him around long-term at this point.
But, I don't think it's fair to say that Ned "biffed the off-season transfer window big time". He was, and will still be this summer, severely constrained in what he can do because of the presence of the three largest salaries on the books, those of Y Chara, Blanco, and Niezgoda. Having those particular three commanding that much money - and yes, I'm aware that as DP's, Blanco and Niezgoda (or Y Chara and Niezgoda, I'm still not 100% sure who was bought down) only hit the salary budget at 651K - is a desperately inefficient use of a limited resource, and I have a hard time believing Ned could do worse in signing new DP's.
And having one of them bought down doesn't really help either, because that buydown means the entire salary hits the books, which is another overpayment, whoever it is.
Also, don't forget that despite those constraints, Evander was brought in; because of those constraints, though, the Timbers couldn't really do anything else of substance to reinforce around Evander, which is why Franck Boli and Eric Miller were the moves.
Those two are both cheap, stop gap players who will do the job, and are both only signed to one year deals, so they're not long-term commitments. That's the kind of move a GM should make when they don't have a lot of flexibility, and that's the kind of move GW never made. He swung for the fences every time and didn't worry about the fiscal consequences a year or two down the road.
I would look for Ned to be much more active, and successfully so, next winter and in summer 2024. He inherited a really crappy roster mess, financially, from GW, and it's gonna take a while to clean that up.
"That's why I think Gio should go at the end of this season, no matter what."
Then the Timbers need to let him go now. It would be a very bad look if they kept him around with knowing he was going to get canned at the end of the season no matter what. This organization still has way too much egg on its face still to keep a manager around when they were planning on parting ways with at the end of the year.
I know I probably would think twice about taking a manager gig with this club if that got out. (And it more than likely would.)
I think firing gio now could take the team in the wrong direction. Of course it can and has worked. But for every 2015 Leicester and 2022 Brighton there is a 2022 Chelsea and 2021 Everton. I think if gio leaves, a new coach can turn the team around and meet the potential it can be, but with about cap space as in my wallet and the fairly positive locker room attitude, I think if gio were to leave it would be at the end of the season, of course unless we self-implode more than now, it should be at the end of the season.
Teams sometimes get a temporary boost when a coach gets fired. I'm sure they take it personally as well because it does reflect on them, too. The point I was making is that if we are no matter what replacing him at the end of the season, why not do it now. It would be a bad look if we didn't let Gio go find a new gig.
I mean, I'd totally be fine with that. Right now, though, this is a middling team that will sneak into but won't get up to much in the playoffs; as of today they're not actively bad enough to warrant firing Gio (as much as I would like them to), which is why I first said the end of the season. If they keep losing, though, all bets are off and let's bring someone in ASAP.
Just because I’m curious, how would you feel about if we fired Gio and hired either Bob Bradley or Greg Vanney (after they presumably get fired from their current jobs in this hypothetical scenario)? Both coaches have a proven track record in MLS but have both of their teams in dead last in each conference, partly due to coaching and partly due to ownership and scouting.
Those just feel like two MLS guys that won’t have a job by the end of the season (or even by summer) and could be potential candidates, if they would be willing to come (I don’t anticipate either of them ever coming to Portland, I’m just curious what you or others would think). Personally I find Bob very dislikable, but outside of that I have no clue how I would feel about either of them coming here
Please no on Bob Bradley. He won at LACF because he had a great roster and the GM knew what he was doing. Evander may eventually get there, but there is no Vela on this team.
Overall, Bob Bradley wins. Overall, Greg Vanney wins. I would take either of them, but I think I'd take Vanney at this point if I had to choose between the two.
Honestly, and this is just me: I am past the point where I need a manager or players to be "likable". I want the Timbers to be dramatically better, and consistently good, and I'll like any manager and set of players that can make that happen. Now, there are limits to that - I don't want, like, convicted abusers or criminals or whatever, but I'm fine with personality-less drones if they deliver highly competitive teams.
Yeah, logically speaking winning is the top priority. However emotionally, I don’t really know how I would feel if I had to see Bob’s face on the sideline every game lol
which is 100% on the coach. I may disagree about the particulars (I'd swap Y Chara and McGraw on your list), but overall the Timbers do have some decent pieces for sure. The fact that they don't gel into something consistent is entirely down to how they're coached.
I still stand by my assessment of the issues with this team. We don't have productive dp's, and Evander looks how I thought he would. This team still doesn't look like they know how to attack. At one point this team was summed up in one play.
We had five players down the right side. That side of the field was congested. There chara was on the ball, and all of the players were just standing in a congested mess. Paredes could have dropped back and given chara a chance to move the ball off the line but Paredes continues to keep the player marking him between him and chara. Then continues to run with the player at his side into the congested part of the field where everyone else was standing.
That moment was the prime example of gioball. No example of spacing, passing patterns, or positioning. It's like, just put them on the field and let them play. No identity. It's like watching my 7 year old nephews team.
This team reminds me of chelsea. They have talented players but have zero idea how to get the best out of those players. They can't put it together on the field. And you can't identify one aspect of the game they do well.
I haven't commented because I wanted to give it time so the excuses could fade away. Now let's look at how all these excuses have stack up today.
1. "We have a lot of injuries."
Well we don't have those issues anymore. we have as close to a full strength team as you could get after season ending injuries.
2. "We always have a slow start."
We are almost half way through the season. Almost every team has a game in hand. In the last five games, we have only beat Vancouver. We lost to Minnesota who didn't have their two best players. We tied and lost to an 11th place rsl that is filled with nothing but mls journeyman. Tied Austin, who is sitting right behind us in the standings. It isn't going to get any easier.
3. "We are still above the playoff line"
9 teams make the playoffs in each conference. NINE! that is not exactly a benchmark to put your hat on. It's actually embarrassing that many teams make it. It's a cash grab by the league to allow that many in. NINE out of FOURTEEN! that's like giving everyone a participation trophy. If you aren't top four you aren't good. Period. Standings matter in judging best teams. That's just fact. Like science and global warming. Right?
4. "We don't have the talent. Its not gio."
How many years under gio have we finished top 3 in our own conference. I can tell you....once. it doesn't matter what variation of timbers. Be it the valeri Era, blanco Era, Evander Era. We are always fighting to make the playoffs. We are always dropping points to teams we should beat. Happened all year last year and is happening this year. The excuse of him "not having his team" is gone. He has been here 8 years. This is his team and players he green lit. Their failure is his failure.
Like someone said in the comments. "It's easier to change the coach than roster."
Or like someone else said
"It seems like this team has some decent individual talent, but just can’t put it together"
Or like a commentators said at half time of man city vs chelsea
"This team has talent and sometimes all a coach needs to do is walk into that dressing room and say "these are the expectations to be on this team, and make it very clear anything less is not acceptable."
Gio might be a nice guy and the team might like him, but 100% this team in all Era's under Gio, has been nothing but complacent. You have to be blind to not see that they don't try or even care to be the best team in the league. They don't fight every game and don't show any urgency until their backs are against the wall and even then, sometimes they don't. Look at last year.
That is a very toxic environment to put a young man into. It's a very toxic culture to get the best out of a professional athlete. Men shouldn't be coddled. They need to be pushed to get the best out of them. Every man knows this.
Gio needs to go and a coach with a winning mentality needs to come in and set the expectations. Gio always reminded me of an employee who looks at the job as a job and not a career. The difference in the effort and mentality are obvious.
I want a manager who comes in and says "how do we make our brand one of the best in the league. From the play on the field, to our place in the standings. How do people view how we develop young talent. How do companies view our marketability. Ect. All things that matter to build a perennial powerhouse.
Honestly I think Gio has the team in the right mentality and has created a wonderful environment in the team and locker room. That’s shown through how much this team bounces back from hardship. However, being a good man manager is only going to get you so far. Outside of Evander, who is the smartest player on the team and is always looking to make things happen, the team looks lost in the attack. Our goals always seem to come from a momentary burst of good attacking play, not repeatable offensive patterns. That’s not true every game, in fact there are many games which we create tons of chances and are combining very well, but those games don’t come often enough.
I still think we have a pretty darn good roster. Bravo, Mosquera, Zuparic, and McGraw should be an elite backline, like those are all really great players. Moreno and Evander have off the chart talent. The organization in every part of the field, however, is off. Defense gets constantly confuddled, there’s gaps in the midfield with Paredes pushing so far forward (this seems to be an issue no matter who is playing in the midfield), and no good plan in the attack. Honestly I think almost everything is there for a good team, besides the on field tactics. And in the post game presser, Gio praised the team quite a bit for playing well, and I agree! We controlled that game in the second half, but couldn’t create any good chances, and that’s been a problem for far too long
I don’t think “bouncing back from a bad performance and acting like it was no big deal that they didn’t do their jobs effectively” isn’t the right outcome. These guys need to be pissed off. Gio needs to be pissed off. They need to believe they can do better. They need to WANT to do better. They need to fight. That is not the message this team delivers to those who are watching.
This is pro sports, not U-whatever where everyone gets a trophy and no fee fees get hurt.
Evander had some great moments. His potential is obvious. But if we want him to truly shine, the coaching staff needs to make the players around him play better. So often he gets on the ball and just lateral or back passes it because the overall offensive shape and lack of movement gives him no options. It’s easy to read some frustration in his body language.
And for fuck’s sake, far-post cross after far-post, ad nauseam, is so fucking #GioBall I can’t stand it.
Tactically and sartorially, he is our own little K Mart Pep — stylishly void across the board.
Apparently Minnesota chose to park the bus on defense which always makes scoring more difficult and also explains why there were so many defenders every time the Timbers got near the penalty area. Still, the team has to play at a higher level in the final third and actually shoot when the chance arrives instead of always trying to create a tap-in. I think playing 5 games in 15 days probably played a role in the Timbers scoring no goals on 21 shots and forcing only a few saves. It looked like Bravo’s shot in the second half was going to go into the net … that was very close!! On the whole, the Timbers played well but the team still needs better play in the final third and smarter play in the final minute of a scoreless match.
The most damning indictment of this team under Gio, for me, was in the stands last night. Or, more accurately, not in the stands. It was a gorgeous, perfect night, the team has theoretically been playing better (or at least looking more coherent), there was every chance that a fan favorite player would make his MLS debut after a long injury layoff, and...PP was about 75% full. It wasn't a holiday weekend, there was no other big event in Portland last night, and the Timbers couldn't even fill up the stadium.
And what's worse is that a lot of the fans IN the stadium were a lot less...energetic than usual. Most of our section was seated, which is a huge shift from even four seasons ago, and our section, which is usually full, definitely had a lot of fans dressed as empty chairs last night.
There's a lack of energy and excitement around this team right now, it's almost like a rot is setting/has set in, and that feeling is very palpable in-stadium. A new coach wouldn't change that overnight, but the shakeup and potential excitement a new coach would bring is necessary, both on and off the pitch.
Sadly, the last time I can think of where the Timbers looked genuinely exciting was the brief tenure of Brian Fernandez. Dude turned out to be a train wreck, but I was in the stands in Chester for the game he went wild and it was a Timbers I hadn’t seen since DV8 in his prime.
My wife and I were in the non-Army 100’s section a couple of weeks back. People in front of us stood the whole game. Asking her to sit was a major offense. She stuck her tongue out at me. I’m not going back. In fact, I’m not going back until Gio and MP are gone. Not one. Both. Gone.
To be fair, there are a couple of standing sections on the west side, 116 comes to mind. The first 2-3 rows have always been sitters, but you can pretty much gauge enthusiasm for the team based on how many rows behind them sit. Saturday night it was about 1/3rd to half of the section which is the most I have ever seen.
I’ve been going quite a few years now(former STH), I don’t recall much standing in 115/116 or even 112/113. In the Army, of course. On a breakout toward goal, of course. Point being, if someone doesn’t want to stand for 90, or stand and look over the shoulder or around the people in front, then spending good $$$ on couple of tickets on the west side becomes a big risk. I suppose there’s Tanner Ridge and Key Bank, but the view 113 seats is my favorite. I guess it’s gonna be Season Pass from now on.
My STs are on the isle between 116 and 117 on the 117 side. 116 has been a standing section since at least 2008 when I first bought STs. They are some of the last holdouts, but 5 years ago when I looked to my left about half of people were standing down to the area in front of the suites. Now most sit.
Of course I had no idea exactly which section you were talking about. Non-TA 100s is probably about 7000 fans and 15 sections.
Right, and that’s the way it looks. I would expect less enthusiasm in response to an ownership that has squandered so much goodwill from the fan base, Thorns and Timbers. Too much damage done. He should sell. It will be a long time before Peregrine gets that goodwill back, if ever.
I really think it's the ownership. I get where you're coming from the Timbers not exactly playing exciting soccer. But, look at how the attendance numbers for the Thorns have dipped in the last couple of years. And they are always in the hunt for trophies.
I'm not convinced a new coach is going to get the stadium full again unless we are able to get a big name. And don't see MP cutting that check.
Sorry Mindful Cyclist, but hard disagree. It's a team sport and one guy, no matter how gifted, makes a bad roster into must-see footy by himself.
Gotta have at least moderately good teammates all the way down to the end of the bench to make it work, because there's too many games/injuries/FIFA windows, etc.
That's already a BIG part of PTFC's current trouble...
I am not suggesting anything. I was merely replying to Mr C’s assertion above that
“Gio might be a nice guy and the team might like him, but 100% this team in all Era's under Gio, has been nothing but complacent. You have to be blind to not see that they don't try or even care to be the best team in the league. They don't fight every game and don't show any urgency until their backs are against the wall and even then, sometimes they don't. Look at last year.
That is a very toxic environment to put a young man into. It's a very toxic culture to get the best out of a professional athlete. Men shouldn't be coddled. They need to be pushed to get the best out of them. Every man knows this.”
Ohh I misunderstood what you were saying, I thought you were putting it on the 107.
I've heard it suggested, here or elsewhere , that PTFC is being run strictly as a business - performance , winning cups, etc. - are secondary to raw profit.
So there is no incentive, on a management level, to win. Everyone gets paid either way, and other metrics determine overall profit.
I wonder if having more of a pro / rel structure would change this, as performance would equate to higher investment and higher profit?
P/R is not going to happen. MLS entry fees are now over a half billion dollars. No owner is going to invest that much if there's a possibility that their brand new Las Vegas team, for example, would be playing the Pittsburgh RiverHounds in two seasons' time. No disrespect to the RiverHounds, but P/R is a nonstarter for MLS ownership.
I could see a day, 10 expansion teams from now, where MLS2 is a thing, and where relegation might exist, but it'll still be a closed loop between those two leagues and not "relegation" as people know the term from most other countries.
Pathetic display. Let Minnesota have too many uncontested shots from outside the box and we did little to threaten goal. Then the last minute defensive letdown once again. It seems like this team has some decent individual talent, but just can’t put it together.
One of this team's team's problems continues to be the misuse of the Designated Player position. A quick look at the roster shows the three DPs are Evander (looks the part) Yimmi Chara (good but not DP good) and Niezgoda (clearly not DP quality except maybe in salary). At least Blanco's splintered butt isn't taking up one of those spots anymore. Until the team gets serious they will continue to be mediocre. I suspect this will take new ownership.
Not sure that is accurate (or else the MLS website and Timbers page is incorrect). Also doesn't take away the point that we are doing it wrong.
DPs should be difference makers just on the basis of being allowed to spend money with no real limit on 3 players and not have it screw up your salary cap.
If Blanco is a DP (and he isn't, per the MLS roster page), then that is a crazy waste of a potential space for a guy whose ceiling is likely what we saw last night -- throw him in for 20-30 minutes and see if he can pop up in the right place/right time and contribute to a goal.
If Niezgoda is a DP (and he is, per MLS) then that too is really poor decision making - keeping a backup 9 in such a valued roster spot for years who is approximately as productive as the other 2nd/3rd string guy making the league minimum.
Evander - jury still out for me, I am willing to give him a full season and into some rebuilding to see what happens, but I did assume a $10m buy would be more dominant than he has been through half of a season.
Yimmi - the guy is a good player, but TAM/GAM good, not DP slot and money good.
The rest of the league, even their inexpensive DPs, look the part. You can often look out on the pitch and see the 2-3 most dominant / dangerous looking players and most of them are DPs. If I do the same for the TImbers, I would assume Mosquera is a DP and wonder why the other 2 are hurt all of the time.
This is why I'm hopeful about Ned and what he can do. All the roster construction mismanagement can be laid squarely on GW's shoulders - he was always very much a damn-the-future kind of manager as regards the MLS salary rules, and this year is the culmination of all that bad roster construction. GW backed this team into a financial corner, which has also hamstrung Ned's ability to fix it quickly.
Fortunately he's gone now, and a lot of those big money contracts are going to be off the books this winter, giving Ned a lot more freedom to rebuild this team than he's had in the last couple years.
"Evander - jury still out for me, I am willing to give him a full season and into some rebuilding to see what happens, but I did assume a $10m buy would be more dominant than he has been through half of a season."
Again, let's recap Evander's situation:
- new country
- new league
- new team
- new system
- new position
Dude's played 14 games, still a vanishingly small sample size when judged against his career as a whole. He's not going to step into a situation where literally everything in his life is different and be the best player in MLS overnight. Evander will, by the end of the season, be worth what he's making. He made a few amazing passes last night, and has looked more and more comfortable both on and off the ball in the last 3-4 games. He should be the least of your worries when looking at this team.
Oh yeah, that's right - thanks for the correction. And that adds to the "small sample size" thing, because it's an even smaller sample than I remember.
GW's biggest problem was too much sentimentality. He and/or Paulson just hung on to players too long. We kept Valeri at least a year too long and now we have Blanco on ice on a pretty big wage. Ned learned at GW's knee. Let's just hope he has ideas of his own.
Agree on Evander and exactly why jury still out. I am willing to give him a full year in fact and want to see what the team looks like in 2024 with some building around him. That said, I totally expected a very expensive buy, by MLS standards, to come in and pretty instantly look the part. I was wrong.
I am actually pretty excited for 2024, even as we're still slogging through this season. So much money and so many old players will be off the books that it's a real chance to reinvent the Timbers in a lot of ways. I hope Ned is willing to do that and not just incrementally improve around the edges.
His production has been ok/good even if he hasn't been lights-out, and definitely he looks the part. I think he's gonna thrive once he gets more pitch time with the skill players around him (Y Chara, Santi in particular). (At the beginning of the season I was fantasizing over what a quality coach could do with Evander, Moreno, Williamson, + Y Chara in an attacking midfield set. That's a combination that could slice up any MLS defense, but alas, injuries + coaching are our handicap.)
The reporting from Clarke is a direct quote from Gio saying our DPs are Blanco, Evander, and Yimmi, I trust that but who really knows.
I don't disagree on our DP performance as a whole. I think Evander will prove to be the 10 million dollar man but Blanco's contract is going to be a real albatross this season. Him and Niezgoda should be gone this off-season.
While I agree on the whole about Yimmi not being a focal point I think he's a good 3rd attacking piece. He makes good runs, is usually good progressing the ball, and will chip in around 4g/8a a season. If they could re-sign him at a lower salary or buy him down to TAM that would be prime.
I would probably trust Ned or Paulson or the MLS salary compliance list more than Gio telling a reporter something. Either way, I am not sure it matters that much because I expect both Blanco and Niezgoda will be gone in the offseason, if we keep Niezgoda it will be because he wants to stay and isn't getting any good offers, willing to stay here for $200k and a 2nd/3rd string spot. If we keep Blanco it will be on the coaching staff.
Blanco and Niezgoda are both out of contract at the end of the year, and neither should be re-signed. Blanco should get an end-of-year sendoff befitting what he has done for the club, but he should not come back. And you can't spell Niezgoda without "go". It just isn't working for him here.
I believe Y Chara is also out of contract after next season, but hopefully can be bought down with TAM this winter to give the club more flexibility.
That is what I would want. If Yimmi can be re-signed on a TAM contract that gives the Timbers two DP slots to retool. Honestly we probably need a DP striker and it needs to hit. Boli is a good stopgap this year but I don't think he's going to be the main guy. If Mora can come back at all I'm willing to keep him as depth next year since he's only making 120k right now and he could be a really good option off the bench. (edit: 120k is just his base salary, guaranteed comp. is 383k)
But we really need to fix our backline depth in the summer. Miller is probably number one on the depth chart in every spot on the backline. Bonilla, Rasmussen, and Mabiala aren't MLS quality at this point in their careers. We have to get a 3rd CB, and probably a backup left back in the summer, that way Miller can back up right back and CB only on occasion.
I have zero expectations that Mora will ever offer anything other than an option off the bench. I mean I really love the guy, but when you lose 2 years to injury as you turn 30, it just isn't a harbinger of good things for the remainder of your career.
Considering the Timbers website had listed Yimmi, Evander, Niezgoda, and Blanco as ALL DPs for months, I’m not gonna go by that. Doesn’t seem reliable. Blanco has the vastly higher salary, it only makes sense that he’s a DP, not Niezgoda
I don’t think the jury is out on Evander, the guy is a wizard out there and is making it happen consistently. The jury is in and he’s amazing, we just need a better tactical game plan around him. He’s constantly the best attacker on the field for us, and yet we’re using him to try to drop dimes to the far post instead of combining in and around the box like we did vs Vancouver
I guess I should have been more specific. I think Evander has the tools but doesn't always display them (see the last 2 matches). I don't think he was being defended any differently, at least from what I could see when watching him off the ball Saturday night (not possible to do on TV).
I think the jury is still out on whether the organization can utilize Evander to his greatest strengths which means having complimentary players around him and a strategic vision on the field. Since Valeri's heyday (i.e. enter Gio) our midfield has frequently looked like a bunch of individuals just winging it. It still does most of the time. You can see line breaking attempts by our back line that generally go through D. Chara, Paredes (or Ayala, Williamson before) or even Evander. We then spray the ball out wide because that collapses the defense centrally when suddenly we are running down their throat in the middle. Typically we then don't look for the quick cross back to the middle while the D is scrambling, we find a triangle outside, allow time for the D to set and maybe another offensive body to get into the box and then we try to work another cross or if we can't do that, work the ball back across the top to the other side, rinse and repeat. The vast majority of our goal scoring success in the last 3-5 years has not been from crosses but quick inside play. Evander can do that, I have no question, but he is very frequently not - is it because he pairs poorly with those surrounding him (passing, style)? Is it because Gio is telling him his job is to get it out wide then get in the box? I would prefer to see him trying stuff that doesn't come off. St. Diego Valeri turned the ball over A LOT (as do many very good 10s on every other team in the world), but genius also looks like a lot of failure punctuated with moments of pure brilliance.
So when I say jury still out, I don't necessarily mean as an individual. He is a very good player. I mean how he will fit in and be used. Can this organization get their money's worth and 90% of the answer to that question lies on the people not named Evander.
ETA: I don't remember the listing of 4 DPs, but that is allowed in the offseason. But by the day before opening day you must identify only 3. Truth be told, I really don't think it matters. We have 4 bigger salary guys, 3 of which are DPs and really only 1 fits the bill, 1 is a GAM/TAM most of the time starter and the other two are coming off the bench late in games at best.
I mean, everything you say is true - the Timbers weren't actually terrible last night. But "weren't actually terrible" is not exactly the target the Timbers should be aiming at, and despite the good things I saw, this goes in the books as a gutpunch of a loss that will sting for a while.
It had the feel of a 0-0 draw (or magical win/gut punch loss) all night. Unfortunately it was the gut punch.
There were stretches where we were really good, dominating the ball, getting quality looks, but just couldn't get it done. Then there was a lull of uninspired play for the final 20 of the half, a bunch of chippy crap and soft foul calls by the CR that mentally got both teams playing poorly and stupid. We looked the better team the whole 2nd half, but once the subs started coming in it seemed like Yimmi, Blanco, Niezgoda were just nowhere near as threatening to score as the starters were (though both gropus failed to do so).
We are back to struggling to score again, which is where we started the season. This team isn't an aerial threat, so I have no idea why we cross the ball so much. I get it that you have to do some of that to stretch the defense and keep them honest, but this team scores with short inside passing for the most part (unless we can get McGraw or Zuparic forward on a set piece). Expecting 0-0 draws is an awful lot to ask and if you are not scoring, most of the time you will lose. While there are a lot of draws in MLS (average PPG league wide is 1.36, only 1.31 in the West), even really good defenses are going to concede 1 goal /90 (every team in the league except Nashville and LAFC concede once per game on average, and those 2 are not far off from that).
I expect a lot of grind it out games. The Timbers have a solid back seven (including Ivavcic in that number). They gave up a goal at the death after pushing for a winning goal.
The problem isn't the defense, it's a lack of scoring and offense in general, as you mention. I think it really comes down to wing play. I've been saying this for awhile - they aren't playing anybody on the wing that is a true winger. I love Santi - but he isn't a winger. And he looks tired. Asprilla doesn't take guys to the end line and rarely can cross, and you kind of want him on the end of a cross any way. He can do his damage in limited minutes (been saying this for years). Yimmi pinches in so much you can't really call him a winger, and he doesn't really do anything wing-like in the box. He's a decent player but not really a winger. Loria strikes me as a middle of the field player as well. He doesn't have much pace. He can put in a cross but is prone to dribble too much and miss the opportunity. He seems more natural in the middle. Gutierrez is good in the final third and acts like a wing, but he is so far down the depth chart we won't see him for a long while. Fogaca is a forward, but actually should be playing wing. Blanco is effective from the wing but we have to wait on him to get back to fitness. Wings open it up for everyone, but the wing play isn't good at all.
The thing is Gio had a recipe for success, and he came upon it by accident. Down a goal to Seattle, and then they rammed home four goals. Does he go back to who - not what - produced those goals? No. The secret sauce? Niezgoda and Fogaca.
I don't know why people can't see Niezgoda looks primed right now. He looks sharp and definitely in shape. He can one two in the box but he needs someone to work with. Fogaca was primed and has been languishing on the bench. The guy waltzes through Seattle's defense and then can barely even get a US Open Cup start one week and not the next.
I just don't get Gio. He'll run guys into the ground before giving others a chance. Boli can dribble, yes, but he's just not putting the final product out there. I think we were much more dangerous with the subs than before. Niezgoda deserves a start and some regular time. And Fogaca should start at a wing. Asprilla - you're a legend - but for crazy stuff and not regular soccer. Fogaca on the left wing, please., and play him with Niezgoda. They work well together.
I'm rambling here, and being a broken record, but the season looks like a broken record with these grind it out, depend on the defense type games because the wrong guys are playing up top or they are simply not suited for that position or are being run into the ground.
I would quibble with a number of your points (e.g. what you even define as a winger,) but first and foremost: the problem absolutely IS the defense. Having 7 guys behind the ball who can make plays at times doesn't mean they're defending well as a team, and the Timbers have not been, looking at the season as a whole.
Only 8 teams in the whole league have given up more goals than the Timbers. Only 4 teams in the West have conceded more, and that includes godawful LA Galaxy, until-recently-winless KC, and aimless RSL.
Portland is tied with Charlotte for the most shots against, at 72-- and if not for Ivacic's above average save percentage, we could easily be last in the league in goals against.
Improving the defense alone would probably have this team comfortably mid table rather than lingering near the playoff line.
With this current group we have - without Mabiala, or Rasmussen playing - it's a solid group, would you not say? We sieved a lot of goals with backups, which accounts for big total. But look at the current trend.
We're getting a lot more shots on goal now that we have regular back seven. The concern is the depth, but the back seven are solid. Who cares if Ivavcic has to make a few saves - the guy can do it and he probably likes doing it. That's normal in a soccer game. To expect a goalie to not have to do anything is kind of ridiculous.
I'm not against improving the defense, but the focus should be on the offense, IMO.
We have a really solid group of defenders, which is why it’s concerning when we give up so many quality chances
Same for the attack, we have a really solid group of attackers. Moreno, Evander, and Boli are all playing well. Which is why it’s concerning when we can’t create many quality chances
I remember when Niezgoda was playing well before his injury. All the formations that showed up on Google and the mls site showed us as a 4231 but Valeri was not a 10 at that time and was more of a second striker. Goda and Valeri could cook! Niezgoda could benefit from a guy playing off him.
He's not good at hold up or being a sneaky off the shoulder guy. Let's try something that's going to shake things up a bit.
I remember when Gio got here he tinkered a bit. It's a transition year and we did not have a big offseason like we hoped. We're not winning a trophy this year so let's play around for next year.
I think it is time for a change. I'm going to be trumpeting Niezgoda. I was down on him in the beginning of the season, but right now, he looks sharp. I'd really like to see him with Evander for more than 15 minutes.
That may be the case, but this is the situation we are in. I think this coming offseason will be big, because Blanco, Niezgoda and Mabiala's salaries should be coming off the books. The Timbers need to replace them in a smart way. Fortunately, the last few moves are encouraging, as we have brought in Moreno, Mosquera, Ayala and Evander as DP/Young DP's. And lets be honest, Yimmi is still a good player even if he isn't a DP caliber player.
From what I can see, Yimmi really doesn't strike fear in defenders as a winger. I mean, let's face it. He scores an occasional goal, but he'd probably be better taking over for his brother playing a six. He's not really that offensive minded. He's more of a shuttler IMO.
Chicken or egg? Coaching or talent? I don't know, but it's a lot easier to change one coach than a roster full of players.
Gio's abilities are purely reliant on the strength of the roster and/or individual performances. He's not a coach who can get a team to play as more than the sum of their parts. PTFC has hit its ceiling with him at the helm. Unless some players get hot or lightning strikes with new signings, this team is going nowhere with his leadership. Looking pretty dismal.
“Gio's abilities are purely reliant on the strength of the roster and/or individual performances. He's not a coach who can get a team to play as more than the sum of their parts.”
This is an excellent way to frame it.
It's both, but I mostly blame coaching. I mean, this roster definitely has a ceiling, they're not going to set the league on fire any time soon, but look at all the loose passing and positional errors this team consistently and repeatedly does - that's all on the coaching staff. Those are mistakes that should be able to be coached out of players, even at this level, and they keep happening.
Changing a coach isn't a magic bullet, and it won't solve every problem the Timbers have, but it is also necessary at this point I think. If not right now, definitely by Leagues Cup time if this team keeps being what we saw yesterday.
Then, next year's roster overhaul, with some big money and aging-out players coming off the books, Ned can basically start fresh and reconstitute this team for the next era of (hopefully) much more success.
If evaluating Gio using passing and player positions, I’m fine with him at this point. Anyone watching the Timbers over the last 6 years understands that the teams under his tutelage have been solid passing teams and positionally aware. He’ll straighten it out.
Are we watching the same games......?
There is no way that the late 2021, 2022, or this year's Timbers can be described as "solid passing" or "positionally aware". The latter is true particularly on the defensive side. This team desperately needs MORE positional awareness.
Frankly even if there are better coaches available than Gio, making a change at this point would probably be wasteful. In the short term that would leave an assistant- (Llamosa? Miles Joseph?) at the helm we have little reason to believe would steer things in a better direction this year. Considering we're currently in a playoff position, firing a winning coach without another direction to go in immediately is probably throwing away 2\3rds of a season.
Moreover, the organization is in such a period of transition right now that they're probably Ill-equipped from the top down to make a coaching change coherently at the moment. We JUST hired a technical director. Our new GM is in his first year and already biffed the off-season transfer window big time. He's clearly "still learning" but i don't feel like Grabavoy is a guy the Timbers should be banking on as GM long term. He was only ok as a player, I can't think of much evidence he did a lot for us as a scout, and so far signs suggest he isn't a contract genius either.
Honestly until the rest of the Timbers organization gets their pieces on the same page I think Gio is pretty safe and possibly more valuable than fans realize. A lot more goes into a big rebuild than just a coach. If we can come up with a better coach with a better vision for the development of this team and give him resources (2 new DPs and some cap space) I'm all for making that move--I just don't think it's going to come together like that before the summer window, and if we make q big signing in the summer, I imagine that buys Gio more time...
He's just not going anywhere right now, I don't think.
That's why I think Gio should go at the end of this season, no matter what. I don't think he should be fired right now, unless things go catastrophically wrong before the Leagues Cup break, but I don't want him around long-term at this point.
But, I don't think it's fair to say that Ned "biffed the off-season transfer window big time". He was, and will still be this summer, severely constrained in what he can do because of the presence of the three largest salaries on the books, those of Y Chara, Blanco, and Niezgoda. Having those particular three commanding that much money - and yes, I'm aware that as DP's, Blanco and Niezgoda (or Y Chara and Niezgoda, I'm still not 100% sure who was bought down) only hit the salary budget at 651K - is a desperately inefficient use of a limited resource, and I have a hard time believing Ned could do worse in signing new DP's.
And having one of them bought down doesn't really help either, because that buydown means the entire salary hits the books, which is another overpayment, whoever it is.
Also, don't forget that despite those constraints, Evander was brought in; because of those constraints, though, the Timbers couldn't really do anything else of substance to reinforce around Evander, which is why Franck Boli and Eric Miller were the moves.
Those two are both cheap, stop gap players who will do the job, and are both only signed to one year deals, so they're not long-term commitments. That's the kind of move a GM should make when they don't have a lot of flexibility, and that's the kind of move GW never made. He swung for the fences every time and didn't worry about the fiscal consequences a year or two down the road.
I would look for Ned to be much more active, and successfully so, next winter and in summer 2024. He inherited a really crappy roster mess, financially, from GW, and it's gonna take a while to clean that up.
"That's why I think Gio should go at the end of this season, no matter what."
Then the Timbers need to let him go now. It would be a very bad look if they kept him around with knowing he was going to get canned at the end of the season no matter what. This organization still has way too much egg on its face still to keep a manager around when they were planning on parting ways with at the end of the year.
I know I probably would think twice about taking a manager gig with this club if that got out. (And it more than likely would.)
I think firing gio now could take the team in the wrong direction. Of course it can and has worked. But for every 2015 Leicester and 2022 Brighton there is a 2022 Chelsea and 2021 Everton. I think if gio leaves, a new coach can turn the team around and meet the potential it can be, but with about cap space as in my wallet and the fairly positive locker room attitude, I think if gio were to leave it would be at the end of the season, of course unless we self-implode more than now, it should be at the end of the season.
Teams sometimes get a temporary boost when a coach gets fired. I'm sure they take it personally as well because it does reflect on them, too. The point I was making is that if we are no matter what replacing him at the end of the season, why not do it now. It would be a bad look if we didn't let Gio go find a new gig.
I mean, I'd totally be fine with that. Right now, though, this is a middling team that will sneak into but won't get up to much in the playoffs; as of today they're not actively bad enough to warrant firing Gio (as much as I would like them to), which is why I first said the end of the season. If they keep losing, though, all bets are off and let's bring someone in ASAP.
Just because I’m curious, how would you feel about if we fired Gio and hired either Bob Bradley or Greg Vanney (after they presumably get fired from their current jobs in this hypothetical scenario)? Both coaches have a proven track record in MLS but have both of their teams in dead last in each conference, partly due to coaching and partly due to ownership and scouting.
Those just feel like two MLS guys that won’t have a job by the end of the season (or even by summer) and could be potential candidates, if they would be willing to come (I don’t anticipate either of them ever coming to Portland, I’m just curious what you or others would think). Personally I find Bob very dislikable, but outside of that I have no clue how I would feel about either of them coming here
Grteenskeeper Bob would never come here, thank Jeebus... PP has turf, and ..."That isn't soccer..."
Please no on Bob Bradley. He won at LACF because he had a great roster and the GM knew what he was doing. Evander may eventually get there, but there is no Vela on this team.
Overall, Bob Bradley wins. Overall, Greg Vanney wins. I would take either of them, but I think I'd take Vanney at this point if I had to choose between the two.
Honestly, and this is just me: I am past the point where I need a manager or players to be "likable". I want the Timbers to be dramatically better, and consistently good, and I'll like any manager and set of players that can make that happen. Now, there are limits to that - I don't want, like, convicted abusers or criminals or whatever, but I'm fine with personality-less drones if they deliver highly competitive teams.
Yeah, logically speaking winning is the top priority. However emotionally, I don’t really know how I would feel if I had to see Bob’s face on the sideline every game lol
...Overall, Bob Bradley wins. Overall, Greg Vanney wins....
Let's be accurate, please. That statement is true only when it's completed by "... with a loaded roster."
Neither guy is winning this year, or has ever won in past years, when coaching teams with poorly constructed, unbalanced rosters.
So, perhaps this comes down to "a highly regarded coach depends on having a top-to bottom balanced, highly skilled roster."
Name checks out lmao
Mosquera, Bravo, D Chara, Y Chara, Moreno, Ivacic, + Evander would likely start on any team in MLS. Zup + MCgraw would be fringe starters.
Our first team 11 is reasonably talented, even with the current injuries... They just play like shit together.
which is 100% on the coach. I may disagree about the particulars (I'd swap Y Chara and McGraw on your list), but overall the Timbers do have some decent pieces for sure. The fact that they don't gel into something consistent is entirely down to how they're coached.
I still stand by my assessment of the issues with this team. We don't have productive dp's, and Evander looks how I thought he would. This team still doesn't look like they know how to attack. At one point this team was summed up in one play.
We had five players down the right side. That side of the field was congested. There chara was on the ball, and all of the players were just standing in a congested mess. Paredes could have dropped back and given chara a chance to move the ball off the line but Paredes continues to keep the player marking him between him and chara. Then continues to run with the player at his side into the congested part of the field where everyone else was standing.
That moment was the prime example of gioball. No example of spacing, passing patterns, or positioning. It's like, just put them on the field and let them play. No identity. It's like watching my 7 year old nephews team.
This team reminds me of chelsea. They have talented players but have zero idea how to get the best out of those players. They can't put it together on the field. And you can't identify one aspect of the game they do well.
I haven't commented because I wanted to give it time so the excuses could fade away. Now let's look at how all these excuses have stack up today.
1. "We have a lot of injuries."
Well we don't have those issues anymore. we have as close to a full strength team as you could get after season ending injuries.
2. "We always have a slow start."
We are almost half way through the season. Almost every team has a game in hand. In the last five games, we have only beat Vancouver. We lost to Minnesota who didn't have their two best players. We tied and lost to an 11th place rsl that is filled with nothing but mls journeyman. Tied Austin, who is sitting right behind us in the standings. It isn't going to get any easier.
3. "We are still above the playoff line"
9 teams make the playoffs in each conference. NINE! that is not exactly a benchmark to put your hat on. It's actually embarrassing that many teams make it. It's a cash grab by the league to allow that many in. NINE out of FOURTEEN! that's like giving everyone a participation trophy. If you aren't top four you aren't good. Period. Standings matter in judging best teams. That's just fact. Like science and global warming. Right?
4. "We don't have the talent. Its not gio."
How many years under gio have we finished top 3 in our own conference. I can tell you....once. it doesn't matter what variation of timbers. Be it the valeri Era, blanco Era, Evander Era. We are always fighting to make the playoffs. We are always dropping points to teams we should beat. Happened all year last year and is happening this year. The excuse of him "not having his team" is gone. He has been here 8 years. This is his team and players he green lit. Their failure is his failure.
Like someone said in the comments. "It's easier to change the coach than roster."
Or like someone else said
"It seems like this team has some decent individual talent, but just can’t put it together"
Or like a commentators said at half time of man city vs chelsea
"This team has talent and sometimes all a coach needs to do is walk into that dressing room and say "these are the expectations to be on this team, and make it very clear anything less is not acceptable."
Gio might be a nice guy and the team might like him, but 100% this team in all Era's under Gio, has been nothing but complacent. You have to be blind to not see that they don't try or even care to be the best team in the league. They don't fight every game and don't show any urgency until their backs are against the wall and even then, sometimes they don't. Look at last year.
That is a very toxic environment to put a young man into. It's a very toxic culture to get the best out of a professional athlete. Men shouldn't be coddled. They need to be pushed to get the best out of them. Every man knows this.
Gio needs to go and a coach with a winning mentality needs to come in and set the expectations. Gio always reminded me of an employee who looks at the job as a job and not a career. The difference in the effort and mentality are obvious.
I want a manager who comes in and says "how do we make our brand one of the best in the league. From the play on the field, to our place in the standings. How do people view how we develop young talent. How do companies view our marketability. Ect. All things that matter to build a perennial powerhouse.
Honestly I think Gio has the team in the right mentality and has created a wonderful environment in the team and locker room. That’s shown through how much this team bounces back from hardship. However, being a good man manager is only going to get you so far. Outside of Evander, who is the smartest player on the team and is always looking to make things happen, the team looks lost in the attack. Our goals always seem to come from a momentary burst of good attacking play, not repeatable offensive patterns. That’s not true every game, in fact there are many games which we create tons of chances and are combining very well, but those games don’t come often enough.
I still think we have a pretty darn good roster. Bravo, Mosquera, Zuparic, and McGraw should be an elite backline, like those are all really great players. Moreno and Evander have off the chart talent. The organization in every part of the field, however, is off. Defense gets constantly confuddled, there’s gaps in the midfield with Paredes pushing so far forward (this seems to be an issue no matter who is playing in the midfield), and no good plan in the attack. Honestly I think almost everything is there for a good team, besides the on field tactics. And in the post game presser, Gio praised the team quite a bit for playing well, and I agree! We controlled that game in the second half, but couldn’t create any good chances, and that’s been a problem for far too long
I don’t think “bouncing back from a bad performance and acting like it was no big deal that they didn’t do their jobs effectively” isn’t the right outcome. These guys need to be pissed off. Gio needs to be pissed off. They need to believe they can do better. They need to WANT to do better. They need to fight. That is not the message this team delivers to those who are watching.
This is pro sports, not U-whatever where everyone gets a trophy and no fee fees get hurt.
Evander had some great moments. His potential is obvious. But if we want him to truly shine, the coaching staff needs to make the players around him play better. So often he gets on the ball and just lateral or back passes it because the overall offensive shape and lack of movement gives him no options. It’s easy to read some frustration in his body language.
And for fuck’s sake, far-post cross after far-post, ad nauseam, is so fucking #GioBall I can’t stand it.
Tactically and sartorially, he is our own little K Mart Pep — stylishly void across the board.
Apparently Minnesota chose to park the bus on defense which always makes scoring more difficult and also explains why there were so many defenders every time the Timbers got near the penalty area. Still, the team has to play at a higher level in the final third and actually shoot when the chance arrives instead of always trying to create a tap-in. I think playing 5 games in 15 days probably played a role in the Timbers scoring no goals on 21 shots and forcing only a few saves. It looked like Bravo’s shot in the second half was going to go into the net … that was very close!! On the whole, the Timbers played well but the team still needs better play in the final third and smarter play in the final minute of a scoreless match.
The most damning indictment of this team under Gio, for me, was in the stands last night. Or, more accurately, not in the stands. It was a gorgeous, perfect night, the team has theoretically been playing better (or at least looking more coherent), there was every chance that a fan favorite player would make his MLS debut after a long injury layoff, and...PP was about 75% full. It wasn't a holiday weekend, there was no other big event in Portland last night, and the Timbers couldn't even fill up the stadium.
And what's worse is that a lot of the fans IN the stadium were a lot less...energetic than usual. Most of our section was seated, which is a huge shift from even four seasons ago, and our section, which is usually full, definitely had a lot of fans dressed as empty chairs last night.
There's a lack of energy and excitement around this team right now, it's almost like a rot is setting/has set in, and that feeling is very palpable in-stadium. A new coach wouldn't change that overnight, but the shakeup and potential excitement a new coach would bring is necessary, both on and off the pitch.
Sadly, the last time I can think of where the Timbers looked genuinely exciting was the brief tenure of Brian Fernandez. Dude turned out to be a train wreck, but I was in the stands in Chester for the game he went wild and it was a Timbers I hadn’t seen since DV8 in his prime.
Since then..? It’s been pretty grim…
My wife and I were in the non-Army 100’s section a couple of weeks back. People in front of us stood the whole game. Asking her to sit was a major offense. She stuck her tongue out at me. I’m not going back. In fact, I’m not going back until Gio and MP are gone. Not one. Both. Gone.
You really can't hope to sit in the 100s for any decently supported soccer team.
To be fair, there are a couple of standing sections on the west side, 116 comes to mind. The first 2-3 rows have always been sitters, but you can pretty much gauge enthusiasm for the team based on how many rows behind them sit. Saturday night it was about 1/3rd to half of the section which is the most I have ever seen.
I’ve been going quite a few years now(former STH), I don’t recall much standing in 115/116 or even 112/113. In the Army, of course. On a breakout toward goal, of course. Point being, if someone doesn’t want to stand for 90, or stand and look over the shoulder or around the people in front, then spending good $$$ on couple of tickets on the west side becomes a big risk. I suppose there’s Tanner Ridge and Key Bank, but the view 113 seats is my favorite. I guess it’s gonna be Season Pass from now on.
My STs are on the isle between 116 and 117 on the 117 side. 116 has been a standing section since at least 2008 when I first bought STs. They are some of the last holdouts, but 5 years ago when I looked to my left about half of people were standing down to the area in front of the suites. Now most sit.
Of course I had no idea exactly which section you were talking about. Non-TA 100s is probably about 7000 fans and 15 sections.
I sit in 111, have done since pre-MLS. Since MLS it used to be all standing, but in the last couple years it's been kinda 50/50.
Right, and that’s the way it looks. I would expect less enthusiasm in response to an ownership that has squandered so much goodwill from the fan base, Thorns and Timbers. Too much damage done. He should sell. It will be a long time before Peregrine gets that goodwill back, if ever.
I really think it's the ownership. I get where you're coming from the Timbers not exactly playing exciting soccer. But, look at how the attendance numbers for the Thorns have dipped in the last couple of years. And they are always in the hunt for trophies.
I'm not convinced a new coach is going to get the stadium full again unless we are able to get a big name. And don't see MP cutting that check.
Sorry Mindful Cyclist, but hard disagree. It's a team sport and one guy, no matter how gifted, makes a bad roster into must-see footy by himself.
Gotta have at least moderately good teammates all the way down to the end of the bench to make it work, because there's too many games/injuries/FIFA windows, etc.
That's already a BIG part of PTFC's current trouble...
Eagerly awaiting the 107 Independent Trust’s statement decrying the toxic environment of coddling surrounding this team.
I hope you aren't suggesting that showing over the top enthusiasm and support for a soccer team is "coddling".
As fans, in the stands, cheering and singing is really all we can do to help the team.
We aren't in a position to make coaching decisions, nor do we have any say over who ends up on the roster.
Boycotting games, or booing, or not cheering, will only affect the players morale. And therefore performance.
I'm not sure how the 107 has a part in the teams present predicament at all.
I am not suggesting anything. I was merely replying to Mr C’s assertion above that
“Gio might be a nice guy and the team might like him, but 100% this team in all Era's under Gio, has been nothing but complacent. You have to be blind to not see that they don't try or even care to be the best team in the league. They don't fight every game and don't show any urgency until their backs are against the wall and even then, sometimes they don't. Look at last year.
That is a very toxic environment to put a young man into. It's a very toxic culture to get the best out of a professional athlete. Men shouldn't be coddled. They need to be pushed to get the best out of them. Every man knows this.”
Ohh I misunderstood what you were saying, I thought you were putting it on the 107.
I've heard it suggested, here or elsewhere , that PTFC is being run strictly as a business - performance , winning cups, etc. - are secondary to raw profit.
So there is no incentive, on a management level, to win. Everyone gets paid either way, and other metrics determine overall profit.
I wonder if having more of a pro / rel structure would change this, as performance would equate to higher investment and higher profit?
P/R is not going to happen. MLS entry fees are now over a half billion dollars. No owner is going to invest that much if there's a possibility that their brand new Las Vegas team, for example, would be playing the Pittsburgh RiverHounds in two seasons' time. No disrespect to the RiverHounds, but P/R is a nonstarter for MLS ownership.
I could see a day, 10 expansion teams from now, where MLS2 is a thing, and where relegation might exist, but it'll still be a closed loop between those two leagues and not "relegation" as people know the term from most other countries.
RE: Second paragraph (way up there)
Maybe other players should be running off the ball like Paredes to open things up.
Pathetic display. Let Minnesota have too many uncontested shots from outside the box and we did little to threaten goal. Then the last minute defensive letdown once again. It seems like this team has some decent individual talent, but just can’t put it together.
One of this team's team's problems continues to be the misuse of the Designated Player position. A quick look at the roster shows the three DPs are Evander (looks the part) Yimmi Chara (good but not DP good) and Niezgoda (clearly not DP quality except maybe in salary). At least Blanco's splintered butt isn't taking up one of those spots anymore. Until the team gets serious they will continue to be mediocre. I suspect this will take new ownership.
It actually is Blanco that's a DP not Niezgoda, as reported by Ryan Clarke in April.
Not sure that is accurate (or else the MLS website and Timbers page is incorrect). Also doesn't take away the point that we are doing it wrong.
DPs should be difference makers just on the basis of being allowed to spend money with no real limit on 3 players and not have it screw up your salary cap.
If Blanco is a DP (and he isn't, per the MLS roster page), then that is a crazy waste of a potential space for a guy whose ceiling is likely what we saw last night -- throw him in for 20-30 minutes and see if he can pop up in the right place/right time and contribute to a goal.
If Niezgoda is a DP (and he is, per MLS) then that too is really poor decision making - keeping a backup 9 in such a valued roster spot for years who is approximately as productive as the other 2nd/3rd string guy making the league minimum.
Evander - jury still out for me, I am willing to give him a full season and into some rebuilding to see what happens, but I did assume a $10m buy would be more dominant than he has been through half of a season.
Yimmi - the guy is a good player, but TAM/GAM good, not DP slot and money good.
The rest of the league, even their inexpensive DPs, look the part. You can often look out on the pitch and see the 2-3 most dominant / dangerous looking players and most of them are DPs. If I do the same for the TImbers, I would assume Mosquera is a DP and wonder why the other 2 are hurt all of the time.
This is why I'm hopeful about Ned and what he can do. All the roster construction mismanagement can be laid squarely on GW's shoulders - he was always very much a damn-the-future kind of manager as regards the MLS salary rules, and this year is the culmination of all that bad roster construction. GW backed this team into a financial corner, which has also hamstrung Ned's ability to fix it quickly.
Fortunately he's gone now, and a lot of those big money contracts are going to be off the books this winter, giving Ned a lot more freedom to rebuild this team than he's had in the last couple years.
"Evander - jury still out for me, I am willing to give him a full season and into some rebuilding to see what happens, but I did assume a $10m buy would be more dominant than he has been through half of a season."
Again, let's recap Evander's situation:
- new country
- new league
- new team
- new system
- new position
Dude's played 14 games, still a vanishingly small sample size when judged against his career as a whole. He's not going to step into a situation where literally everything in his life is different and be the best player in MLS overnight. Evander will, by the end of the season, be worth what he's making. He made a few amazing passes last night, and has looked more and more comfortable both on and off the ball in the last 3-4 games. He should be the least of your worries when looking at this team.
Good points, except that Evander hasn't played all 14 games. He's missed 2 or 3 due to injury.
Oh yeah, that's right - thanks for the correction. And that adds to the "small sample size" thing, because it's an even smaller sample than I remember.
GW's biggest problem was too much sentimentality. He and/or Paulson just hung on to players too long. We kept Valeri at least a year too long and now we have Blanco on ice on a pretty big wage. Ned learned at GW's knee. Let's just hope he has ideas of his own.
Agree on Evander and exactly why jury still out. I am willing to give him a full year in fact and want to see what the team looks like in 2024 with some building around him. That said, I totally expected a very expensive buy, by MLS standards, to come in and pretty instantly look the part. I was wrong.
I am actually pretty excited for 2024, even as we're still slogging through this season. So much money and so many old players will be off the books that it's a real chance to reinvent the Timbers in a lot of ways. I hope Ned is willing to do that and not just incrementally improve around the edges.
I would bet Ned is willing to do whatever MP will let him do.
His production has been ok/good even if he hasn't been lights-out, and definitely he looks the part. I think he's gonna thrive once he gets more pitch time with the skill players around him (Y Chara, Santi in particular). (At the beginning of the season I was fantasizing over what a quality coach could do with Evander, Moreno, Williamson, + Y Chara in an attacking midfield set. That's a combination that could slice up any MLS defense, but alas, injuries + coaching are our handicap.)
The reporting from Clarke is a direct quote from Gio saying our DPs are Blanco, Evander, and Yimmi, I trust that but who really knows.
I don't disagree on our DP performance as a whole. I think Evander will prove to be the 10 million dollar man but Blanco's contract is going to be a real albatross this season. Him and Niezgoda should be gone this off-season.
While I agree on the whole about Yimmi not being a focal point I think he's a good 3rd attacking piece. He makes good runs, is usually good progressing the ball, and will chip in around 4g/8a a season. If they could re-sign him at a lower salary or buy him down to TAM that would be prime.
I would probably trust Ned or Paulson or the MLS salary compliance list more than Gio telling a reporter something. Either way, I am not sure it matters that much because I expect both Blanco and Niezgoda will be gone in the offseason, if we keep Niezgoda it will be because he wants to stay and isn't getting any good offers, willing to stay here for $200k and a 2nd/3rd string spot. If we keep Blanco it will be on the coaching staff.
Blanco and Niezgoda are both out of contract at the end of the year, and neither should be re-signed. Blanco should get an end-of-year sendoff befitting what he has done for the club, but he should not come back. And you can't spell Niezgoda without "go". It just isn't working for him here.
I believe Y Chara is also out of contract after next season, but hopefully can be bought down with TAM this winter to give the club more flexibility.
That is what I would want. If Yimmi can be re-signed on a TAM contract that gives the Timbers two DP slots to retool. Honestly we probably need a DP striker and it needs to hit. Boli is a good stopgap this year but I don't think he's going to be the main guy. If Mora can come back at all I'm willing to keep him as depth next year since he's only making 120k right now and he could be a really good option off the bench. (edit: 120k is just his base salary, guaranteed comp. is 383k)
But we really need to fix our backline depth in the summer. Miller is probably number one on the depth chart in every spot on the backline. Bonilla, Rasmussen, and Mabiala aren't MLS quality at this point in their careers. We have to get a 3rd CB, and probably a backup left back in the summer, that way Miller can back up right back and CB only on occasion.
I have zero expectations that Mora will ever offer anything other than an option off the bench. I mean I really love the guy, but when you lose 2 years to injury as you turn 30, it just isn't a harbinger of good things for the remainder of your career.
Considering the Timbers website had listed Yimmi, Evander, Niezgoda, and Blanco as ALL DPs for months, I’m not gonna go by that. Doesn’t seem reliable. Blanco has the vastly higher salary, it only makes sense that he’s a DP, not Niezgoda
I don’t think the jury is out on Evander, the guy is a wizard out there and is making it happen consistently. The jury is in and he’s amazing, we just need a better tactical game plan around him. He’s constantly the best attacker on the field for us, and yet we’re using him to try to drop dimes to the far post instead of combining in and around the box like we did vs Vancouver
I guess I should have been more specific. I think Evander has the tools but doesn't always display them (see the last 2 matches). I don't think he was being defended any differently, at least from what I could see when watching him off the ball Saturday night (not possible to do on TV).
I think the jury is still out on whether the organization can utilize Evander to his greatest strengths which means having complimentary players around him and a strategic vision on the field. Since Valeri's heyday (i.e. enter Gio) our midfield has frequently looked like a bunch of individuals just winging it. It still does most of the time. You can see line breaking attempts by our back line that generally go through D. Chara, Paredes (or Ayala, Williamson before) or even Evander. We then spray the ball out wide because that collapses the defense centrally when suddenly we are running down their throat in the middle. Typically we then don't look for the quick cross back to the middle while the D is scrambling, we find a triangle outside, allow time for the D to set and maybe another offensive body to get into the box and then we try to work another cross or if we can't do that, work the ball back across the top to the other side, rinse and repeat. The vast majority of our goal scoring success in the last 3-5 years has not been from crosses but quick inside play. Evander can do that, I have no question, but he is very frequently not - is it because he pairs poorly with those surrounding him (passing, style)? Is it because Gio is telling him his job is to get it out wide then get in the box? I would prefer to see him trying stuff that doesn't come off. St. Diego Valeri turned the ball over A LOT (as do many very good 10s on every other team in the world), but genius also looks like a lot of failure punctuated with moments of pure brilliance.
So when I say jury still out, I don't necessarily mean as an individual. He is a very good player. I mean how he will fit in and be used. Can this organization get their money's worth and 90% of the answer to that question lies on the people not named Evander.
ETA: I don't remember the listing of 4 DPs, but that is allowed in the offseason. But by the day before opening day you must identify only 3. Truth be told, I really don't think it matters. We have 4 bigger salary guys, 3 of which are DPs and really only 1 fits the bill, 1 is a GAM/TAM most of the time starter and the other two are coming off the bench late in games at best.
Focusing on debating whether Seba or Niezgoda is a DP is a straw man . @CraigM’s observation is valid in either outcome.
I mean, everything you say is true - the Timbers weren't actually terrible last night. But "weren't actually terrible" is not exactly the target the Timbers should be aiming at, and despite the good things I saw, this goes in the books as a gutpunch of a loss that will sting for a while.
It had the feel of a 0-0 draw (or magical win/gut punch loss) all night. Unfortunately it was the gut punch.
There were stretches where we were really good, dominating the ball, getting quality looks, but just couldn't get it done. Then there was a lull of uninspired play for the final 20 of the half, a bunch of chippy crap and soft foul calls by the CR that mentally got both teams playing poorly and stupid. We looked the better team the whole 2nd half, but once the subs started coming in it seemed like Yimmi, Blanco, Niezgoda were just nowhere near as threatening to score as the starters were (though both gropus failed to do so).
We are back to struggling to score again, which is where we started the season. This team isn't an aerial threat, so I have no idea why we cross the ball so much. I get it that you have to do some of that to stretch the defense and keep them honest, but this team scores with short inside passing for the most part (unless we can get McGraw or Zuparic forward on a set piece). Expecting 0-0 draws is an awful lot to ask and if you are not scoring, most of the time you will lose. While there are a lot of draws in MLS (average PPG league wide is 1.36, only 1.31 in the West), even really good defenses are going to concede 1 goal /90 (every team in the league except Nashville and LAFC concede once per game on average, and those 2 are not far off from that).
I expect a lot of grind it out games. The Timbers have a solid back seven (including Ivavcic in that number). They gave up a goal at the death after pushing for a winning goal.
The problem isn't the defense, it's a lack of scoring and offense in general, as you mention. I think it really comes down to wing play. I've been saying this for awhile - they aren't playing anybody on the wing that is a true winger. I love Santi - but he isn't a winger. And he looks tired. Asprilla doesn't take guys to the end line and rarely can cross, and you kind of want him on the end of a cross any way. He can do his damage in limited minutes (been saying this for years). Yimmi pinches in so much you can't really call him a winger, and he doesn't really do anything wing-like in the box. He's a decent player but not really a winger. Loria strikes me as a middle of the field player as well. He doesn't have much pace. He can put in a cross but is prone to dribble too much and miss the opportunity. He seems more natural in the middle. Gutierrez is good in the final third and acts like a wing, but he is so far down the depth chart we won't see him for a long while. Fogaca is a forward, but actually should be playing wing. Blanco is effective from the wing but we have to wait on him to get back to fitness. Wings open it up for everyone, but the wing play isn't good at all.
The thing is Gio had a recipe for success, and he came upon it by accident. Down a goal to Seattle, and then they rammed home four goals. Does he go back to who - not what - produced those goals? No. The secret sauce? Niezgoda and Fogaca.
I don't know why people can't see Niezgoda looks primed right now. He looks sharp and definitely in shape. He can one two in the box but he needs someone to work with. Fogaca was primed and has been languishing on the bench. The guy waltzes through Seattle's defense and then can barely even get a US Open Cup start one week and not the next.
I just don't get Gio. He'll run guys into the ground before giving others a chance. Boli can dribble, yes, but he's just not putting the final product out there. I think we were much more dangerous with the subs than before. Niezgoda deserves a start and some regular time. And Fogaca should start at a wing. Asprilla - you're a legend - but for crazy stuff and not regular soccer. Fogaca on the left wing, please., and play him with Niezgoda. They work well together.
I'm rambling here, and being a broken record, but the season looks like a broken record with these grind it out, depend on the defense type games because the wrong guys are playing up top or they are simply not suited for that position or are being run into the ground.
I would quibble with a number of your points (e.g. what you even define as a winger,) but first and foremost: the problem absolutely IS the defense. Having 7 guys behind the ball who can make plays at times doesn't mean they're defending well as a team, and the Timbers have not been, looking at the season as a whole.
Only 8 teams in the whole league have given up more goals than the Timbers. Only 4 teams in the West have conceded more, and that includes godawful LA Galaxy, until-recently-winless KC, and aimless RSL.
Portland is tied with Charlotte for the most shots against, at 72-- and if not for Ivacic's above average save percentage, we could easily be last in the league in goals against.
Improving the defense alone would probably have this team comfortably mid table rather than lingering near the playoff line.
With this current group we have - without Mabiala, or Rasmussen playing - it's a solid group, would you not say? We sieved a lot of goals with backups, which accounts for big total. But look at the current trend.
We're getting a lot more shots on goal now that we have regular back seven. The concern is the depth, but the back seven are solid. Who cares if Ivavcic has to make a few saves - the guy can do it and he probably likes doing it. That's normal in a soccer game. To expect a goalie to not have to do anything is kind of ridiculous.
I'm not against improving the defense, but the focus should be on the offense, IMO.
We have a really solid group of defenders, which is why it’s concerning when we give up so many quality chances
Same for the attack, we have a really solid group of attackers. Moreno, Evander, and Boli are all playing well. Which is why it’s concerning when we can’t create many quality chances
That's why you have to change it up. Boli is not playing that well. Moreno is dog tired and like I said, should be playing a 10.
I'd like to see this:
Fogaca .... Niezgoda .... Blanco
.....................Evander ...........
............Chara .......Paredes
Bravo ... Zup ... McGraw ... Mosquera
......................Ivavcic
Yimmi backs up Fogaca (60)
Moreno backs up Blanco and Evander and Dairon is third wing option. Boli can back up Niezgoda.
We need more offense.
I remember when Niezgoda was playing well before his injury. All the formations that showed up on Google and the mls site showed us as a 4231 but Valeri was not a 10 at that time and was more of a second striker. Goda and Valeri could cook! Niezgoda could benefit from a guy playing off him.
He's not good at hold up or being a sneaky off the shoulder guy. Let's try something that's going to shake things up a bit.
I remember when Gio got here he tinkered a bit. It's a transition year and we did not have a big offseason like we hoped. We're not winning a trophy this year so let's play around for next year.
I think it is time for a change. I'm going to be trumpeting Niezgoda. I was down on him in the beginning of the season, but right now, he looks sharp. I'd really like to see him with Evander for more than 15 minutes.
Yimmi as a DP is a waste of a DP spot. He’s a fine player, but not DP quality. Can’t believe he makes at least twice the salary as Diego.
I said this when we signed him. He has always been a Tam player. Anything more and it's a terrible use of resources
That may be the case, but this is the situation we are in. I think this coming offseason will be big, because Blanco, Niezgoda and Mabiala's salaries should be coming off the books. The Timbers need to replace them in a smart way. Fortunately, the last few moves are encouraging, as we have brought in Moreno, Mosquera, Ayala and Evander as DP/Young DP's. And lets be honest, Yimmi is still a good player even if he isn't a DP caliber player.
From what I can see, Yimmi really doesn't strike fear in defenders as a winger. I mean, let's face it. He scores an occasional goal, but he'd probably be better taking over for his brother playing a six. He's not really that offensive minded. He's more of a shuttler IMO.