Don’t think a full post-mortem on the nats is needed given we all know the many things that went wrong, so a quick bit of positivity:
Naomi Girma is maybe the best pure CB I’ve ever watched in woso and I actually don’t think that’s hyperbolic? Her positioning is impeccable, she has fantastic recovery speed, she reads the game like prime Becky, and she’s excellent on the ball. I legitimately can’t remember her making a mistake in NWSL or internationally. Unreal player.
I just read a decent piece on Slate which makes basically the same points about Girma, including that she's an exceptional passer. Also saying Vlatko will be gone and that Smith probably needs to go to Europe to grow.
There’s gonna be a boatload of eurosnobbery run amok style think pieces in that same vein in the next few weeks. Simply put, I don’t buy it. A tactically poor, relatively depleted US team built almost entirely of NWSL players (with Emily Sonnet in a double pivot!) just played a team stocked full of top European talent off the field- Do I think the United States has some major issues to address in terms of tactics and youth development? Yeah. Do I think our best players need to go to Europe to develop? Not really.
(Fwiw, I do think Soph will end up there sometime in the next few years because that’s how she’s wired, but I don’t think it’s necessarily going to beneficial to her development as a player)
She also has plenty of time to do it; she turns 23 in 4 days, she could do it in two years and still be in her prime, age wise. She could do it after the next World Cup and still be in a good age (Kerr went at 26, first full season was when she was 27)
Yeah a lot of it will come from inside the house- I’m just much less of an NWSL doomer than a lot of people. There are plenty of Thorns who really struggled here (Foord and AMC to name two) who have had reasonably successful European careers.
Anyhow, this isn’t to say that there aren’t real problems to work out from a macro perspective especially as the investment level rises in Europe.... it’s just that *right now* I’m not convinced that going to play for Chelsea or arsenal or Lyon is a good move for Smith. Outside of the champions league, the competition is, if anything, lower than in NWSL.
Would it be good for her to experience different football culture and coaching? For sure. But that can also happen here; the league just needs to improve its investment across the board and then the best coaches will begin coming here
Yeah, *hint hint* Jessica Berman- add some pressure to get a better head coach in Portland, where your future star 9 currently plays. And, future USWNT players in Coffey and Moultrie. I understand the circumstances which got us Norris, but it'll be a huge mistake if he's here beyond this season. He was a set piece/GK coach with no head coaching experience when he took the assistant role, and one year of that didn't make him any more qualified to have this current HC job now. Really hope there will be a push with this sale to get some professionals with some real experience here. The NWSL can draw and produce great players for preparing the USWNT, but the league needs to also put efforts in to get/keep good coaches. It's a little better than it was like a year ago, but there's still several interim coaches in the league (and we're still expanding.)
Not sure if you’re saying otherwise, but the Thorns have been built around playing to Soph’s strengths in almost every way -- sometimes to a fault-- since she was drafted. I think a lot of coaches would have looked at her profile and played her on the wing a la Vlatko, but all three of her coaches (except for when Parsons played her as part of a front two) have given her free reign as a loan 9 and funneled the entire offense through her.
I don't think we should play Soph on the wing though ;). I was disgusted with that choice. They needed a better wing choices on both sides (not Pinoe either) and Morgan and Smith sharing the 9 minutes.
It will be interesting to see what the Thorns do. I would argue that Sinclair playing has arguably held back Soph's development. She is a really good player, but as constructed she is mostly expected to run onto long passes and beat players 1v1. Having a team who can find her in smaller spaces would be nice. I would love to see Soph become as good at getting assists as she is at scoring ... and she isn't bad with 5 assists on the season, behind only Coffey, but the threat of incisive passing makes a striker even more dangerous, flattens the feet of defenders.
for some...less NWSL bashing perspective, I was listening to the Men in Blazers preview last night with Jonas Eidevall (The Arsenal Women manager) and he had an interesting comment: the league is really exciting because anyone can beat anyone, and what the league really needs is better coaching, and more diversity in coaching styles, than players going elsewhere. I think what he thinks is the competitiveness is a huge plus; now you just need coaches who engage in that competitiveness differently. I'm inclined to agree, to be honest.
I'd agree, and I'd also like to see some growth technically and more grass pitches. But I think you'd have to listen to players and hope they're willing to speak candidly.
There was a great piece in The Athletic about coaching throughout the US Soccer landscape. It's just not good enough either tactically or technically and we can no longer rely on our physically to get results. I know that I don't want another club coach for the Nats (unless Emma Hayes is willing to leave Chelsea.) We need someone with experience with national teams, and preferably someone who is steeped in soccer know-how.
I think you can broadly group NWSL coaches into 3 categories:
1. Recent addition to the league from overseas (Stoney, Amoros, Bjorkegren)
2. Came over from Europe but has been here a long time (Harvey, Parsons, Coombe before she got sacked)
3. Relatively new (Laity, Norris, Hines)
There's also the 4th group - the youth soccer to NWSL pipeline, which was also the biggest area of abuse that was seen in the league by coaches. Ultimately i think you want more of a blend between domestic coaches (and at this stage I'd include Parsons and Harvey here, especially the latter given her U20 job) and coaches from the rest of the world because that's how you get new styles of play going in the league. For all of those coaches in that category they've all been here less than 18 months; it takes time because they make adjustments based on the league, and then the league as a whole makes adjustments.
Reason for USWNT optimism. This is what will be available, even before we talk about new players who will come onto the scene or come into their own in the next 3-4 years.
From Mike DeCourcy at The Sporting News:
"The forward group has seen its growth accelerate because of the injuries to young stars Catarina Macario and Mallory Swanson. At 18, Alyssa Thompson got to make a World Cup roster and feel how it is to step onto that stage. At 21, Trinity Rodman got minutes and responsibility in this World Cup she’d would not have seen for years. At 22, Sophia Smith had the weight of the USWNT offense — and, ultimately, the potential for advancement in the penalty shootout — on her shoulders. Sometimes, failure teaches lessons.
The attacking midfield duo of Rose Lavelle and Lindsey Horan will be 32 and 33 in four years. Savannah DeMelo (who appeared in this World Cup), Ashley Sanchez (who never got off the bench), and Sam Coffey (who just missed the cut) will be well short of their 30th birthdays.
The unquestioned standout of the USA in Oceania, center-back Naomi Girma, still is only 23. Right-back Emily Fox is 25. Versatile defender Tierna Davidson, who was not quite sharp enough to be selected after recovering from injury, is only 24."
I would add Jayden Shaw at SD as a must play in next WWC. I think will be the starting 10. Phenomenal ability to break a defense down with dribble and passing.
I continue to see things I like from Betfort and Hogan. Depending on how many retirements or departures we have, I might be willing to protect them in expansion. At the very least, I'd be sad to see them go.
I continue to see D'Aquila and Porter struggle, really just with the pace of the game in terms of decision and execution. I would be happy to see them selected in expansion, but I don't think that will happen.
Yeah, who knows lol...better than signing a Canadian bench player and calling it a day haha. I don't know how good her negotiation chops are because we haven't gotten anyone in except Beckie and Leon on her watch.
Having watched a chunk of Japan-Norway, my first Japan viewing, do they always push so high? Lost track of how often I counted nine across the center line. Is that SOP or a tactic deployed vs. Norway?
Because they're gonna get nailed on fast counters by the right opponent. Question remains, who dat?
They play a back 5 that turns into a back 3in possession and Minami or Kumagai frequently step into the midfield to add an extra woman. They don’t get hit on counters because they can easily drop back into the 5, whether it’s one of the CMs dropping back or the wingbacks. I agree that real pace on the break would theoretically cause them the most trouble and they do put a lot of numbers forward, but they rarely overcommit. They play like a club team that knows each other’s tendencies- A pretty remarkable coaching job, especially in contrast to Vlatko.
They’re also not going to play a team with real pace until the final (France or England) if they get there- That team *could* have been the U.S....but...yeah. I’m really hoping for a Japan-Spain semi rematch.
Adding to what kielbj posted, the Nadeshiko seem to be able to vary their tactical plan and formation to suit the opponent more readily than most any team I've ever witnessed. The plan v Norway could hardly have been more different from the one they employed to dismantle Spain. In that match, they willingly ceded possession, set up in a low block that Spain had virtually zero success in breaking down...then fired off multiple lethal counters. We'll see what they have in mind v Sweden (other than doing their best not to give up set pieces, where the beanpole Swedes will be most dangerous).
One reason Japan is able to be so versatile is their excellent coach, Futoshi Ikeda, has coached some of these players for years: he's been Japan's U17 and U20 coach, and won the U20 World Cup with them. He knows these players' capabilities very, very well.
Sweden have a decent chance, but I think the smart money is still on Japan. They have momentum, discipline, and phenomenal technical ability going for them. Someone on social media pointed out that they play with the cohesion of an elite club team.
Frickin' Gotham were bossing the joint last night, and Stengel has quickly become a valuable cog. Also, how long before Nighswonger gets the callup? She's playing lights out.
How embarrassed are Loooville after letting ten players score on them. TWICE? Sheesh, they were awful.
That's pretty bad. Loovull should be better than this during the CC. That said, KCFUBAR's best player remains Kristen Hamilton. I'm not saying that as some hot take against the Debinha signing. All I mean is that now that she's back from injury Hamilton is getting it done again this year.
i think in general people in the US have this idea of "Europe" that is based on men's soccer (and the men's Champions League) and people in Europe have an idea of the NWSL based on MLS. The reality, like DavidK says, is most of the leagues are incredibly imbalanced (to that point, Italy and Germany went out in the group stages; perhaps their players should leave their domestic leagues for the NWSL!). I do think the Champions League is a big attraction, but even that can be imbalanced; every group in the last edition had a team of no-hopers and really only two groups had three good to very good teams in them
Yep. I think it’s tough though, because there are *elements* of the same issues that men’s soccer has (poor in-country youth development and lack of tactical sophistication in coaching) in American woso as well. People should be able to separate NWSL from MLS (and European leagues from their male counterparts) while still appreciating that there needs to be some improvement domestically.
A lot of it will depend on whether the NWSL can remain a top league (I think it can) and secondarily whether the US can improve its development outside of the college game (I think it will, but will struggle to keep up with Europe). My concern -- and it’s a positive for woso overall-- is that as the lower level WSL teams and the other European leagues invest more, it will become more appealing for say, a Morgan Weaver type to go play for Roma or Aston Villa than stay in The US. I think we’re a ways off that being the case, but I do think it could happen in the future
I would add to that whether NWSL can continue to grow salaries.
The top end European women's teams are part of clubs with incredibly deep pockets as if they were attached to NFL teams deep pockets, some of them. NWSL, not so much. My sense is that is why some players are interested in Europe. Athletic careers are fleetingly short - 10 years or less for most, some manage to get 15 out of it, very, very few more. If you putz around for most of that not maximizing your earning potential, and the market for that is global, as well as hopefully doing so with a fit (coaching, team strengths) that suits you, you probably are not doing yourself many favors.
To Aidan's point about the men, no - the money isn't anywhere near that same planet, and I would argue that there are a lot of "no way they are going to compete" teams in the men's leagues too ... ones whose sole objective is to stay up and compete, but no way they are winning their league much less going anywhere in champions league.
That will only happen if she goes to the FAWSL. No other league over there has the depth to allow her to play against top-flight competition more than once or twice in the regular season. That and Champions League play would be it. She'd learn nothing from crushing tomato cans most every weekend.
In the FAWSL, otoh, she'd risk having not-necessarily-better homegrown players being favored over her and possibly being played out of position (o hai there, Yui Hasegawa), which was disastrous for her at the World Cup. That's just a fact of life in English women's footy...
Now ignoring football reasons, there's also the matter of pulling down some huge paychecks for the right Euro side. But her NT salary and endorsement contracts over here mean she's not exactly hurting for money.
I don't see Chelsea having any room up top at all for Soph, at least not at the 9. They also just signed Mia Fishel, on top of Macario. Lauren James is going off also, so I can't imagine she isn't a starter on the wing.
Yeah, I believe the first time Crystal Dunn ever played defense, she played as a wingback for Chelsea. Jill Ellis took notes, and she's played defense for country ever since.
It's a real question, isn't it? She can't run through the defense on this level. She needs to be allowed to play the 9, and I think she'd be great in 2027 with Rodman and Swanson flanking her and Macario right behind her. But I'm guessing that, yeah, she's gonna head for the door to continue building her skills.
She’s just not a winger- She gets pigeonholed as one because she’s fast and skilled, but it reallly doesn’t suit her playstyle. I don’t think it’s that she can’t run through the defense on this level (though it’s certainly a higher level than NWSL), but she flourishes when she can be matched up against CBs and roam instead of being forced to the sideline. It’s beyond stupid that Vlatko didn’t play her at the 9 just because he had to get Morgan in the team for...reasons.
Now, she also didn’t play very well and her relative weaknesses -- occasionally poor first touch, subpar passing-- certainly showed up more than they do in NWSL. But she’s a true striker, and by far the best one in the league. She shouldn’t have been on the wing simply to accommodate Morgan’s place in the team, and it was one of the reasons why, despite the team looking really good today, they couldn’t get a goal.
Even Jonas Eidevall said (on the Men In Blazers watchalong) that Soph isn't a wide forward. He said the same about Lynn.
It especially doesn't work with Alex Morgan as a 9. Just, two vastly different play styles. Would Soph work better on the wing with Cat Macario playing in the 9 (Or false 9?) Yeah, I do think so because their styles of play are complimentary (esp with Mal Swanson back)....but I still think the way to get the most out of Soph is to play her centrally.
Still baffling that Alex Morgan, our 9, didn't get one goal this tournament.
Yeah I wouldn't have hated seeing Soph next to Morgan in a diamond with a front two, but they certainly don't work together in a front three. And yes...the degree to which they missed Cat -- only compounded by the Lavelle injury -- has been widely understated.
Rodman, even when she has the space pulls up and tries to beat defenders. I get it that if your plan is to cross, often you have to delay to get bodies in the box. Unfortunately today WIlliams was not effective out there either. This may be in incredibly PTFC biased comment, but I think we'd have done better with a pacey winger - Weaver herself. The problem is that the 9 is Morgan's spot and nobody is going to take that away from her except for age .... which means probably the next Olympics and then her international career is over unless she wants to look as bad as Rapinoe did in a cameo role 4 years from now.
I admit that I haven't been watching the USWNT for a bit, but they were shockingly inept. This tournament looked like a coach who couldn't say no to certain players, WOULDN'T say yes to others, and essentially said "these are my 10-12 best field players, I am going to get them on the field even if it means playing them out of position". The result was predictably bad.
I've also said this in other threads re: Vlatko, except I thought it could be in KC. They've got an interim hc who has been up and down (and publicly hostile towards her players), plus, it's where he lives.
Is that a thing, or a prediction? Too much news ATM.
In addition to Pinoe, O'Hara, Naher and Morgan have likely played their last WWC. I won't predict Ertz, because she's still coming back from giving birth and probably only 80%.
I'm surprised she isn't hanging on for Paris 2024 since she is only 31, but perhaps she is planning on having another child? Just pure speculation.
The women's game is different from the Men's in that there are marquee tournaments 2 years in a row (ETA: for the senior national teams, men play in the Olympics too, but it is U20 or U23 teams and nobody really pays attention to those and not really considered a major tournament) but it is far from unusual for men in their 30-32 range to retire from international soccer after a WC because they will be 34-36 the next time around and chances of playing a significant role drop tremendously unless you are superstar level.
I wish the women's tourney at the Olympics were U23 like the men's. It's such a valuable opportunity for young players to get minutes in a big venue (which the U20 World Cup doesn't do because nobody watches or attends it).
Some nice words from Kosovare Asllani from her convo with Tobin after they got the W over the US regarding the immense vitriol the USWNT is already getting because of their loss:
23 players, but let's say 21 because two keepers sat. Nothing unusual about that.
Sanchez = 0 minutes
Cook = 0 minutes
Mewis = 1 minute
Huerta = 7 minutes
O'Hara = 9 minutes
Thompson = 17 minutes
So, 6 field players -- almost 30% of the roster -- played a total of 34 minutes in the 4 matches. I'm not going to make a point about tired legs. It just says to me no faith in almost 30% of the roster to be of help. Then again, 3 of those 6 are defenders, and defense wasn't the problem.
Meanwhile 6 field players -- Ertz, Girma, Sullivan, Horan, Dunn, Fox -- played 382 or more minutes in the 4 matches.
I have to wonder if having Lavelle would have made a positive difference?
Well, the Dutch are going to get a chance to ponder the same thing, with van de Donk out for the next match on accumulated yellows.
Let's play "Who from 2023 WWC makes the 2024 Olympics?"
My guess is there will be 1 opening at GK and 2 openings, at the least, at each of the outfield positions, so anywhere from 7-10 new faces for 2024 Olympics. They may or may not be be players who have had call-ups prior to 2023 WWC.
Here is the 2023 WWC roster. Who doesn't make to 2024 Olympics?
On that question, what happened with Parsons in the Netherlands? He seems much more tactically minded and able to manage a log jam of stars than Vlatko who has overseen the nats being just another above average women's team over the last 4 years.
1-1-1 in group stage at the 2020 olympics, a PK win in the quarters, loss in the semis and squeaked out a win in the bronze game ... followed by this lackluster 1-1-2 (*PK loss) world cup. It is very clear he is over his head to me and this confirmed it.
Will be disappointed if he isn't let go in the next couple of weeks.
Boy, I don't know, but you watch their current coach and how they're playing, you have to think "Parsons had Miedema too, and they canned him, but this guy's getting it done even without Viv."
Parsons seems to be culture driven which is awesome at a club level but for a national team that had some success previously perhaps too much of a culture shock. With the right team it probably works but that was a bad fit.
I think National Team coach has to be a hard job. You only have access to your players a few weeks at a time, only specific windows. All the planning in the world can be upended by an injury or someone with poor form/mental issues stemming from club play. It is sort of a miracle that some teams can have consistently good teams of what amount to a collection of allstars who don't train together very often.
Honestly, I do wonder if this is also some of the WNT's slide. As the women's club / pro game has taken off in Europe and the US, they are often held to their international windows. A couple of decades ago when they had few to no professional opportunities, they were constantly training with their team and that has slowly become less and less over the years.
Bombing out of this tourney early also means no "victory tour", though I am sure they will replace that with friendlies and just rebrand it.
When I saw Sonnett start I took a dep breath. My favorite high risk/high reward player. She had a great game and it was the first time I have said Sullivan had a good game, the double pivot worked. Vlatco is toast, but give him credit for the line-up that he started with. ONTOH, he played so few players in the four games, that I am sure the starters that played the whole game were totally gassed.
Ertz, Rapinoe, Mewis, OHara and maybe Sonnett and Morgan probably won't make the 2024 roster.
OOOH! Hank Paulson on with Fareed Zakaria this morning. I wonder if he'll ask about the Thorns sale and Hank's role in the Peregrine Group.
(shows self out)
Seriously, Hank is long-since retired from Treasury, but he's still moving in big circles. He's at an Aspen forum right now, and Zakaria is interviewing Paulson and Geithner. They're talking about how to build a "war-resilient US economy" -- non-partisan, evidence-based, research based.
Hank is talking about potential of US recession (thinks we've staved it off but all is not rosy), climate change (has worked on it for a long time), immigration (obviously, ongoing need for policy solutions), antitrust laws, energy independence, national industrial planning (he's not a fan, but it can be necessary in some circumstances), domestic federal government (ongoing "situation in Washington" is America's biggest problem), and US/China relationship.
Merritt, on the other hand, owns a couple of soccer teams and got embarrassed by how he handled and didn't handle all things Riley.
I'll bet there are tense conversations at the holidays.
I still say there's a great "Bonfire of the Vanities" analysis to be had here, with Merritt filling the role of bond-trading Sherman McCoy and Hank the role of legal "lion" John Campbell McCoy.
I totally forgot that this was an afternoon kickoff. Just tuned in. Was it all this sterile? I get that Seattle just needed the draw, so no shock there. But all the usual NorrisBall things like unforced turnovers seemed evident in the final quarter hour. Just wondered if it was all like that or the Replacements just were running out of gas...
It was better earlier on, but only by a bit. I'd guess Reign had more unforced turnovers than we did.
Norris is clearly treating this like a meaningless friendly, which it pretty much is for the Thorns. So he's giving end-of-the-bench players a run-out rather than focusing on winning the game.
Most of the second half was like practicing passing in the midfield. 61% possesion which kept OLR chances low and a clean sheet. Reign outshot them though 11-8.
Don’t think a full post-mortem on the nats is needed given we all know the many things that went wrong, so a quick bit of positivity:
Naomi Girma is maybe the best pure CB I’ve ever watched in woso and I actually don’t think that’s hyperbolic? Her positioning is impeccable, she has fantastic recovery speed, she reads the game like prime Becky, and she’s excellent on the ball. I legitimately can’t remember her making a mistake in NWSL or internationally. Unreal player.
I just read a decent piece on Slate which makes basically the same points about Girma, including that she's an exceptional passer. Also saying Vlatko will be gone and that Smith probably needs to go to Europe to grow.
There’s gonna be a boatload of eurosnobbery run amok style think pieces in that same vein in the next few weeks. Simply put, I don’t buy it. A tactically poor, relatively depleted US team built almost entirely of NWSL players (with Emily Sonnet in a double pivot!) just played a team stocked full of top European talent off the field- Do I think the United States has some major issues to address in terms of tactics and youth development? Yeah. Do I think our best players need to go to Europe to develop? Not really.
(Fwiw, I do think Soph will end up there sometime in the next few years because that’s how she’s wired, but I don’t think it’s necessarily going to beneficial to her development as a player)
She also has plenty of time to do it; she turns 23 in 4 days, she could do it in two years and still be in her prime, age wise. She could do it after the next World Cup and still be in a good age (Kerr went at 26, first full season was when she was 27)
Some of the Eurosnobbery has even come from local sources like the Equalizer and the Athletic, tho.
Yeah a lot of it will come from inside the house- I’m just much less of an NWSL doomer than a lot of people. There are plenty of Thorns who really struggled here (Foord and AMC to name two) who have had reasonably successful European careers.
Anyhow, this isn’t to say that there aren’t real problems to work out from a macro perspective especially as the investment level rises in Europe.... it’s just that *right now* I’m not convinced that going to play for Chelsea or arsenal or Lyon is a good move for Smith. Outside of the champions league, the competition is, if anything, lower than in NWSL.
Would it be good for her to experience different football culture and coaching? For sure. But that can also happen here; the league just needs to improve its investment across the board and then the best coaches will begin coming here
Yeah, *hint hint* Jessica Berman- add some pressure to get a better head coach in Portland, where your future star 9 currently plays. And, future USWNT players in Coffey and Moultrie. I understand the circumstances which got us Norris, but it'll be a huge mistake if he's here beyond this season. He was a set piece/GK coach with no head coaching experience when he took the assistant role, and one year of that didn't make him any more qualified to have this current HC job now. Really hope there will be a push with this sale to get some professionals with some real experience here. The NWSL can draw and produce great players for preparing the USWNT, but the league needs to also put efforts in to get/keep good coaches. It's a little better than it was like a year ago, but there's still several interim coaches in the league (and we're still expanding.)
Smith needs a Thorns organization who rejiggers the offence around Soph, and doesn't cobble one together from the last two rosters.
Not sure if you’re saying otherwise, but the Thorns have been built around playing to Soph’s strengths in almost every way -- sometimes to a fault-- since she was drafted. I think a lot of coaches would have looked at her profile and played her on the wing a la Vlatko, but all three of her coaches (except for when Parsons played her as part of a front two) have given her free reign as a loan 9 and funneled the entire offense through her.
as vlatko should have...
I don't think we should play Soph on the wing though ;). I was disgusted with that choice. They needed a better wing choices on both sides (not Pinoe either) and Morgan and Smith sharing the 9 minutes.
It will be interesting to see what the Thorns do. I would argue that Sinclair playing has arguably held back Soph's development. She is a really good player, but as constructed she is mostly expected to run onto long passes and beat players 1v1. Having a team who can find her in smaller spaces would be nice. I would love to see Soph become as good at getting assists as she is at scoring ... and she isn't bad with 5 assists on the season, behind only Coffey, but the threat of incisive passing makes a striker even more dangerous, flattens the feet of defenders.
for some...less NWSL bashing perspective, I was listening to the Men in Blazers preview last night with Jonas Eidevall (The Arsenal Women manager) and he had an interesting comment: the league is really exciting because anyone can beat anyone, and what the league really needs is better coaching, and more diversity in coaching styles, than players going elsewhere. I think what he thinks is the competitiveness is a huge plus; now you just need coaches who engage in that competitiveness differently. I'm inclined to agree, to be honest.
I'd agree, and I'd also like to see some growth technically and more grass pitches. But I think you'd have to listen to players and hope they're willing to speak candidly.
There are other factors too. Like the WSL has a really good TV deal on Sky and the BBC, whereas the NWSL has like 4 games on CBS
There was a great piece in The Athletic about coaching throughout the US Soccer landscape. It's just not good enough either tactically or technically and we can no longer rely on our physically to get results. I know that I don't want another club coach for the Nats (unless Emma Hayes is willing to leave Chelsea.) We need someone with experience with national teams, and preferably someone who is steeped in soccer know-how.
I think you can broadly group NWSL coaches into 3 categories:
1. Recent addition to the league from overseas (Stoney, Amoros, Bjorkegren)
2. Came over from Europe but has been here a long time (Harvey, Parsons, Coombe before she got sacked)
3. Relatively new (Laity, Norris, Hines)
There's also the 4th group - the youth soccer to NWSL pipeline, which was also the biggest area of abuse that was seen in the league by coaches. Ultimately i think you want more of a blend between domestic coaches (and at this stage I'd include Parsons and Harvey here, especially the latter given her U20 job) and coaches from the rest of the world because that's how you get new styles of play going in the league. For all of those coaches in that category they've all been here less than 18 months; it takes time because they make adjustments based on the league, and then the league as a whole makes adjustments.
Reason for USWNT optimism. This is what will be available, even before we talk about new players who will come onto the scene or come into their own in the next 3-4 years.
From Mike DeCourcy at The Sporting News:
"The forward group has seen its growth accelerate because of the injuries to young stars Catarina Macario and Mallory Swanson. At 18, Alyssa Thompson got to make a World Cup roster and feel how it is to step onto that stage. At 21, Trinity Rodman got minutes and responsibility in this World Cup she’d would not have seen for years. At 22, Sophia Smith had the weight of the USWNT offense — and, ultimately, the potential for advancement in the penalty shootout — on her shoulders. Sometimes, failure teaches lessons.
The attacking midfield duo of Rose Lavelle and Lindsey Horan will be 32 and 33 in four years. Savannah DeMelo (who appeared in this World Cup), Ashley Sanchez (who never got off the bench), and Sam Coffey (who just missed the cut) will be well short of their 30th birthdays.
The unquestioned standout of the USA in Oceania, center-back Naomi Girma, still is only 23. Right-back Emily Fox is 25. Versatile defender Tierna Davidson, who was not quite sharp enough to be selected after recovering from injury, is only 24."
I would add Jayden Shaw at SD as a must play in next WWC. I think will be the starting 10. Phenomenal ability to break a defense down with dribble and passing.
After watching WWC for the last couple of weeks, this is some rough viewing.
Haha, I watched this directly after the USA/Sweden game and I was also thinking the differences were....stark.
Second that - I had exactly the same thought while watching.
I continue to see things I like from Betfort and Hogan. Depending on how many retirements or departures we have, I might be willing to protect them in expansion. At the very least, I'd be sad to see them go.
I continue to see D'Aquila and Porter struggle, really just with the pace of the game in terms of decision and execution. I would be happy to see them selected in expansion, but I don't think that will happen.
Two maybe important bits of player news:
-Kiera Walsh practicing with the Lionesses
-Sam Kerr practicing with the Matildas
As a fan I'd love both to be back in the pitch.
As a fan I'd love both to be in the NWSL.
On one of the broadcasts KK said she tried to get Keira Walsh to the Thorns. I appreciate the ambition!
Love the hustle, but it might have been little more than a DM saying "Hey, wanna come play for the Thorns? No? OK. Appreciate you!"
Yeah, who knows lol...better than signing a Canadian bench player and calling it a day haha. I don't know how good her negotiation chops are because we haven't gotten anyone in except Beckie and Leon on her watch.
Having watched a chunk of Japan-Norway, my first Japan viewing, do they always push so high? Lost track of how often I counted nine across the center line. Is that SOP or a tactic deployed vs. Norway?
Because they're gonna get nailed on fast counters by the right opponent. Question remains, who dat?
They play a back 5 that turns into a back 3in possession and Minami or Kumagai frequently step into the midfield to add an extra woman. They don’t get hit on counters because they can easily drop back into the 5, whether it’s one of the CMs dropping back or the wingbacks. I agree that real pace on the break would theoretically cause them the most trouble and they do put a lot of numbers forward, but they rarely overcommit. They play like a club team that knows each other’s tendencies- A pretty remarkable coaching job, especially in contrast to Vlatko.
They’re also not going to play a team with real pace until the final (France or England) if they get there- That team *could* have been the U.S....but...yeah. I’m really hoping for a Japan-Spain semi rematch.
Adding to what kielbj posted, the Nadeshiko seem to be able to vary their tactical plan and formation to suit the opponent more readily than most any team I've ever witnessed. The plan v Norway could hardly have been more different from the one they employed to dismantle Spain. In that match, they willingly ceded possession, set up in a low block that Spain had virtually zero success in breaking down...then fired off multiple lethal counters. We'll see what they have in mind v Sweden (other than doing their best not to give up set pieces, where the beanpole Swedes will be most dangerous).
One reason Japan is able to be so versatile is their excellent coach, Futoshi Ikeda, has coached some of these players for years: he's been Japan's U17 and U20 coach, and won the U20 World Cup with them. He knows these players' capabilities very, very well.
Sweden have a decent chance, but I think the smart money is still on Japan. They have momentum, discipline, and phenomenal technical ability going for them. Someone on social media pointed out that they play with the cohesion of an elite club team.
Random bold predictions:
Vlatko returns to coaching in the NWSL in 2024, perhaps for BFD.
Harvey continues using Sonnett at the 6.
Ertz, if she plays, sees time at CB for ACFCNFT and Henry plays the 6.
There may be as many as 8 "locks" from the current USWNT roster to play in the 2027 WWC, barring injury/unavailability.
Most of this year's WWC roster will not play in the next WWC.
Bonus prediction: Katie Stengel returns to playing in the NWSL in 2024, perhaps for Utah (she's been effective during her loan to Gotham).
Frickin' Gotham were bossing the joint last night, and Stengel has quickly become a valuable cog. Also, how long before Nighswonger gets the callup? She's playing lights out.
How embarrassed are Loooville after letting ten players score on them. TWICE? Sheesh, they were awful.
That's pretty bad. Loovull should be better than this during the CC. That said, KCFUBAR's best player remains Kristen Hamilton. I'm not saying that as some hot take against the Debinha signing. All I mean is that now that she's back from injury Hamilton is getting it done again this year.
She remains the rare NWSL 4-goal scorer and still has the craft and desire. I'm just glad she's not with NCC and I don't have to hate on her.
Does Soph now feel the need to play overseas to get her game to the next level?
i think in general people in the US have this idea of "Europe" that is based on men's soccer (and the men's Champions League) and people in Europe have an idea of the NWSL based on MLS. The reality, like DavidK says, is most of the leagues are incredibly imbalanced (to that point, Italy and Germany went out in the group stages; perhaps their players should leave their domestic leagues for the NWSL!). I do think the Champions League is a big attraction, but even that can be imbalanced; every group in the last edition had a team of no-hopers and really only two groups had three good to very good teams in them
Yep. I think it’s tough though, because there are *elements* of the same issues that men’s soccer has (poor in-country youth development and lack of tactical sophistication in coaching) in American woso as well. People should be able to separate NWSL from MLS (and European leagues from their male counterparts) while still appreciating that there needs to be some improvement domestically.
A lot of it will depend on whether the NWSL can remain a top league (I think it can) and secondarily whether the US can improve its development outside of the college game (I think it will, but will struggle to keep up with Europe). My concern -- and it’s a positive for woso overall-- is that as the lower level WSL teams and the other European leagues invest more, it will become more appealing for say, a Morgan Weaver type to go play for Roma or Aston Villa than stay in The US. I think we’re a ways off that being the case, but I do think it could happen in the future
I would add to that whether NWSL can continue to grow salaries.
The top end European women's teams are part of clubs with incredibly deep pockets as if they were attached to NFL teams deep pockets, some of them. NWSL, not so much. My sense is that is why some players are interested in Europe. Athletic careers are fleetingly short - 10 years or less for most, some manage to get 15 out of it, very, very few more. If you putz around for most of that not maximizing your earning potential, and the market for that is global, as well as hopefully doing so with a fit (coaching, team strengths) that suits you, you probably are not doing yourself many favors.
To Aidan's point about the men, no - the money isn't anywhere near that same planet, and I would argue that there are a lot of "no way they are going to compete" teams in the men's leagues too ... ones whose sole objective is to stay up and compete, but no way they are winning their league much less going anywhere in champions league.
That will only happen if she goes to the FAWSL. No other league over there has the depth to allow her to play against top-flight competition more than once or twice in the regular season. That and Champions League play would be it. She'd learn nothing from crushing tomato cans most every weekend.
In the FAWSL, otoh, she'd risk having not-necessarily-better homegrown players being favored over her and possibly being played out of position (o hai there, Yui Hasegawa), which was disastrous for her at the World Cup. That's just a fact of life in English women's footy...
Now ignoring football reasons, there's also the matter of pulling down some huge paychecks for the right Euro side. But her NT salary and endorsement contracts over here mean she's not exactly hurting for money.
So we're really only talking about Soph going to Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, maybe Man U.
Kerr obviously wanted Soph to come to Chelsea and play alongside her. Macario would be there too.
I don't see Chelsea having any room up top at all for Soph, at least not at the 9. They also just signed Mia Fishel, on top of Macario. Lauren James is going off also, so I can't imagine she isn't a starter on the wing.
Yeah, I wondered that with the Fishel signing too. I mean, you always find a way to make room for elite talent, but yeah.
Yeah, I believe the first time Crystal Dunn ever played defense, she played as a wingback for Chelsea. Jill Ellis took notes, and she's played defense for country ever since.
It's a real question, isn't it? She can't run through the defense on this level. She needs to be allowed to play the 9, and I think she'd be great in 2027 with Rodman and Swanson flanking her and Macario right behind her. But I'm guessing that, yeah, she's gonna head for the door to continue building her skills.
She’s just not a winger- She gets pigeonholed as one because she’s fast and skilled, but it reallly doesn’t suit her playstyle. I don’t think it’s that she can’t run through the defense on this level (though it’s certainly a higher level than NWSL), but she flourishes when she can be matched up against CBs and roam instead of being forced to the sideline. It’s beyond stupid that Vlatko didn’t play her at the 9 just because he had to get Morgan in the team for...reasons.
Now, she also didn’t play very well and her relative weaknesses -- occasionally poor first touch, subpar passing-- certainly showed up more than they do in NWSL. But she’s a true striker, and by far the best one in the league. She shouldn’t have been on the wing simply to accommodate Morgan’s place in the team, and it was one of the reasons why, despite the team looking really good today, they couldn’t get a goal.
Even Jonas Eidevall said (on the Men In Blazers watchalong) that Soph isn't a wide forward. He said the same about Lynn.
It especially doesn't work with Alex Morgan as a 9. Just, two vastly different play styles. Would Soph work better on the wing with Cat Macario playing in the 9 (Or false 9?) Yeah, I do think so because their styles of play are complimentary (esp with Mal Swanson back)....but I still think the way to get the most out of Soph is to play her centrally.
Still baffling that Alex Morgan, our 9, didn't get one goal this tournament.
Still reeling from the missed PK and missed follow-up?
Yeah I wouldn't have hated seeing Soph next to Morgan in a diamond with a front two, but they certainly don't work together in a front three. And yes...the degree to which they missed Cat -- only compounded by the Lavelle injury -- has been widely understated.
making Carli Lloyd proud. Sad she got villainized for telling the truth.
No, she got (correctly) villainized for being a petty, Fox News style, culture-war brat.
She was right about Soph as a 9, but everything else that comes out her mouth is hot garbage.
Not sure she did herself, or the Nats, any favors. Krieger, Heath, and Press were able to offer critical insights without going for the jugular.
Rodman, man, she had a disappointing tournament. How much was Sanchez riding the bench a factor in that?
Agree Soph is best as a 9, maybe in a 3-3-3-1? I'd like to see her heat maps for how much effort is going into falling back on defense.
Rodman, even when she has the space pulls up and tries to beat defenders. I get it that if your plan is to cross, often you have to delay to get bodies in the box. Unfortunately today WIlliams was not effective out there either. This may be in incredibly PTFC biased comment, but I think we'd have done better with a pacey winger - Weaver herself. The problem is that the 9 is Morgan's spot and nobody is going to take that away from her except for age .... which means probably the next Olympics and then her international career is over unless she wants to look as bad as Rapinoe did in a cameo role 4 years from now.
I admit that I haven't been watching the USWNT for a bit, but they were shockingly inept. This tournament looked like a coach who couldn't say no to certain players, WOULDN'T say yes to others, and essentially said "these are my 10-12 best field players, I am going to get them on the field even if it means playing them out of position". The result was predictably bad.
Last paragraph > Amen, amen, amen.
And for that, he should go.
I've also said this in other threads re: Vlatko, except I thought it could be in KC. They've got an interim hc who has been up and down (and publicly hostile towards her players), plus, it's where he lives.
Ooooh, that's a good one.
And.... Ertz retires from USWNT.
Is that a thing, or a prediction? Too much news ATM.
In addition to Pinoe, O'Hara, Naher and Morgan have likely played their last WWC. I won't predict Ertz, because she's still coming back from giving birth and probably only 80%.
It's a thing. She announced her USWNT retirement. ESPN posted a story about 1 hour ago.
A little surprised, but maybe she doesn't have the fire, or has some nagging physical issues.
I always felt better when Julie was on the field. Warrior.
I'm surprised she isn't hanging on for Paris 2024 since she is only 31, but perhaps she is planning on having another child? Just pure speculation.
The women's game is different from the Men's in that there are marquee tournaments 2 years in a row (ETA: for the senior national teams, men play in the Olympics too, but it is U20 or U23 teams and nobody really pays attention to those and not really considered a major tournament) but it is far from unusual for men in their 30-32 range to retire from international soccer after a WC because they will be 34-36 the next time around and chances of playing a significant role drop tremendously unless you are superstar level.
I wish the women's tourney at the Olympics were U23 like the men's. It's such a valuable opportunity for young players to get minutes in a big venue (which the U20 World Cup doesn't do because nobody watches or attends it).
Some nice words from Kosovare Asllani from her convo with Tobin after they got the W over the US regarding the immense vitriol the USWNT is already getting because of their loss:
https://twitter.com/TobinHeath/status/1688660435976048640
Makes everyone else's opinions look pretty small....
Especially the opinion of the Orange colored Felon.
Provenzano and Nally in. Now we're flying!
GAME TIME!
Oh, how I have missed hearing someone on an NWSL broadcast call MV "VasconSWAYlos."
It's been too long!
23 players, but let's say 21 because two keepers sat. Nothing unusual about that.
Sanchez = 0 minutes
Cook = 0 minutes
Mewis = 1 minute
Huerta = 7 minutes
O'Hara = 9 minutes
Thompson = 17 minutes
So, 6 field players -- almost 30% of the roster -- played a total of 34 minutes in the 4 matches. I'm not going to make a point about tired legs. It just says to me no faith in almost 30% of the roster to be of help. Then again, 3 of those 6 are defenders, and defense wasn't the problem.
Meanwhile 6 field players -- Ertz, Girma, Sullivan, Horan, Dunn, Fox -- played 382 or more minutes in the 4 matches.
I have to wonder if having Lavelle would have made a positive difference?
Well, the Dutch are going to get a chance to ponder the same thing, with van de Donk out for the next match on accumulated yellows.
Let's play "Who from 2023 WWC makes the 2024 Olympics?"
My guess is there will be 1 opening at GK and 2 openings, at the least, at each of the outfield positions, so anywhere from 7-10 new faces for 2024 Olympics. They may or may not be be players who have had call-ups prior to 2023 WWC.
Here is the 2023 WWC roster. Who doesn't make to 2024 Olympics?
Naeher
Murphy
Kingsbury
Cook
Fox
Dunn
Girma
Huerta
O'Hara
Sonnett
DeMelo
Ertz
Horan
Lavelle
Mewis
Sanchez
Sullivan
Morgan
Rapinoe
Rodman
Smith
Thompson
Williams
Waiting to see who the coach is.
On that question, what happened with Parsons in the Netherlands? He seems much more tactically minded and able to manage a log jam of stars than Vlatko who has overseen the nats being just another above average women's team over the last 4 years.
1-1-1 in group stage at the 2020 olympics, a PK win in the quarters, loss in the semis and squeaked out a win in the bronze game ... followed by this lackluster 1-1-2 (*PK loss) world cup. It is very clear he is over his head to me and this confirmed it.
Will be disappointed if he isn't let go in the next couple of weeks.
Boy, I don't know, but you watch their current coach and how they're playing, you have to think "Parsons had Miedema too, and they canned him, but this guy's getting it done even without Viv."
Parsons seems to be culture driven which is awesome at a club level but for a national team that had some success previously perhaps too much of a culture shock. With the right team it probably works but that was a bad fit.
it also clashed with like, the Dutch specifically. I could actually see Mark's thing working much better for the USWNT
I think National Team coach has to be a hard job. You only have access to your players a few weeks at a time, only specific windows. All the planning in the world can be upended by an injury or someone with poor form/mental issues stemming from club play. It is sort of a miracle that some teams can have consistently good teams of what amount to a collection of allstars who don't train together very often.
Honestly, I do wonder if this is also some of the WNT's slide. As the women's club / pro game has taken off in Europe and the US, they are often held to their international windows. A couple of decades ago when they had few to no professional opportunities, they were constantly training with their team and that has slowly become less and less over the years.
Bombing out of this tourney early also means no "victory tour", though I am sure they will replace that with friendlies and just rebrand it.
And probably getting harder because the USSF/NWSL relationship has changed.
When I saw Sonnett start I took a dep breath. My favorite high risk/high reward player. She had a great game and it was the first time I have said Sullivan had a good game, the double pivot worked. Vlatco is toast, but give him credit for the line-up that he started with. ONTOH, he played so few players in the four games, that I am sure the starters that played the whole game were totally gassed.
Ertz, Rapinoe, Mewis, OHara and maybe Sonnett and Morgan probably won't make the 2024 roster.
Vlatko is toast not because of the defense, but because the offense was atrocious and because he didn't use well the roster that he himself built.
It's incredible that the US conceded only 1 goal in 4 matches and they're out.
It's also incredible that Naeher made her one and only save in the tournament during the Sweden match.
Hey, didn't we just have an Olym....never mind.
OOOH! Hank Paulson on with Fareed Zakaria this morning. I wonder if he'll ask about the Thorns sale and Hank's role in the Peregrine Group.
(shows self out)
Seriously, Hank is long-since retired from Treasury, but he's still moving in big circles. He's at an Aspen forum right now, and Zakaria is interviewing Paulson and Geithner. They're talking about how to build a "war-resilient US economy" -- non-partisan, evidence-based, research based.
Hank is talking about potential of US recession (thinks we've staved it off but all is not rosy), climate change (has worked on it for a long time), immigration (obviously, ongoing need for policy solutions), antitrust laws, energy independence, national industrial planning (he's not a fan, but it can be necessary in some circumstances), domestic federal government (ongoing "situation in Washington" is America's biggest problem), and US/China relationship.
Merritt, on the other hand, owns a couple of soccer teams and got embarrassed by how he handled and didn't handle all things Riley.
I'll bet there are tense conversations at the holidays.
I still say there's a great "Bonfire of the Vanities" analysis to be had here, with Merritt filling the role of bond-trading Sherman McCoy and Hank the role of legal "lion" John Campbell McCoy.
Interesting decision by Sarina Wiegman to put Draymond Green out there against Nigeria.
Some saying that if this were FAWSL, James would be looking at a 3-match ban for violent conduct.
Somewhere is a joke about her spats trick but heck if I can land it.
I totally forgot that this was an afternoon kickoff. Just tuned in. Was it all this sterile? I get that Seattle just needed the draw, so no shock there. But all the usual NorrisBall things like unforced turnovers seemed evident in the final quarter hour. Just wondered if it was all like that or the Replacements just were running out of gas...
Yes, yes it was.
It was better earlier on, but only by a bit. I'd guess Reign had more unforced turnovers than we did.
Norris is clearly treating this like a meaningless friendly, which it pretty much is for the Thorns. So he's giving end-of-the-bench players a run-out rather than focusing on winning the game.
Most of the second half was like practicing passing in the midfield. 61% possesion which kept OLR chances low and a clean sheet. Reign outshot them though 11-8.
Four clean sheets all season, and 5 minutes away from a second of the season against OL Reign. Funny sport