After the insane negativity in the game thread, I hope there are at least some positive replies here. There was something to be excited about nearly everywhere.
There are things to be happy about after this. If nothing else, the look of absolute joy on Mora's face after he scored, the look of absolute joy on his teammates' faces after Mora scored... The entire sequence leading up to that goal from Moreno (played well), then Paredes (who apparently now just runs all over the pitch doing whatever he wants, and I like it), the Loria (what a pass), to Mora who looked HEALTHY.
Happy person here. I stopped following the match threads a couple seasons ago because it seemed that a majority of the post were always negative/complaining.
I mean, it's possible to hold two thoughts in one's head at once. I'm as happy about a win as I can be, given that that win came in a tournament I don't care about. I'm also still of the mind that this team needs major work and a major overhaul - starting with the coach - this off season, no matter what happens next.
I like it when the Timbers win, and watching them win in person on a beautiful (if a bit warm) night will always make me happy, but this team is still a complete mess, and for long stretches of last night they did nothing to convince me they're improving in a sustainable way.
The Mora goal, like Blanco's last week, was really, really good to see as a reward for so much work to get back to the team, and the Evander goal was...wow. I know Messi is MLS' cash cow/wonder boy/darling/media everything right now, but Evander's goal was every bit as good.
I can't wait to surround Evander with more talented pieces and see what he can do.
Count me in as being happy about the result. Not happy about the season or Gio's decision to start Goda and ride him so long, but I can't have everything.
We all have rightfully criticized Gio plenty this year, but let’s give credit where it’s due: the Quakes ran us over in the first half, we had no answers for their press and they were cutting us apart with their passing (and yes that is Gio’s fault because his initial game plan clearly didn’t work), but during the break he clearly made some adjustments and we controlled the game. San Jose had almost nothing going forward, we had tons more chances than they did, we looked organized, and the subs all made an impact. I think Gio deserves a lot of credit for this win
MORENO IS BACK!! I’m so happy about that. He clearly made an impact as soon as he came on and showed that he’s got the talent to be a star. His touches to start the second goal were brilliant, as was Paredes’ touch, Loria’s through ball, and Mora’s finish. I hope he gets the start Wednesday, he’s a great player that we need in form if we want to be competitive.
Niezgoda was... alright! Good, even! When he had the ball at least. He has zero presence up top when he doesn’t have the ball which is very frustrating, but when he did get the ball he made some good plays and got the assist (not like that was anything special though). Honestly he looks so devoid of confidence that I don’t even blame him that much for missing the wide open goal, I just feel bad for the guy and the ball game at him pretty quickly. We’re definitely better with Boli or Mora up top (I hope Mora starts Wednesday) as they have material impact on the game even without the ball, but I was happy with Jaro’s performance.
McGraw made a play at 57:55 that was incredible. After the second goal, that’s my favorite play of the game. Saved what would’ve been a 1v1 with an incredible spin and poke, and yeah if Jebo was expecting that then he could’ve controlled it, but he wasn’t (because who the hell expected Zac to do that???) and it bounced right off of him... gonna be honest, I have no idea how he timed that so perfectly, but man I love the guy to death and he’s such a great defender. My MOTM
Another step in the right direction for this team, but unfortunately the team has taken way too many steps backwards, so it’s gonna take a lot of forward steps for me to start believing again
The new MLS is going to take some getting used to. I couldn’t go Saturday, and had to watch on TV. The call of the game was interesting. But this is our world now:
“Not Messi passes to Not Messi. Bad touch by Not Messi cleared away by Not Messi. Not Messi’s Team reported to us midweek that ‘not Messi related’ and also ‘not Messi related.' And Not Messi hits a stunner from Messi-5 yards out!"
Hahaha you're not wrong. I should have screenshotted it, but on Saturday afternoon literally every single story on the home screen of the MLS app was Messi or Messi-related.
I got super excited when an Argentinian #10 came in for the Timbers on Sat, because I thought it was Messi, based on the coverage I'd seen in the last couple weeks. I just assume he's on every team now.
It bothers me mostly because, while I understand Messi is one of the 3-4 greatest players of all time, and while it will definitely boost eyeballs on the league in the short run, I can't get past the fact that MLS spent years trying not to be exactly this kind of league - the kind that signs guys looking for one last payday in the sun - and now they're hyping the hell out of a guy who's doing exactly that.
Like I've said all along - I don't begrudge him doing it. He's earned the right to do whatever he wants. But for MLS to completely abandon, even temporarily, their preference for marketing the league through its broader young talent base is frustrating.
I mostly hope that as the novelty of Messi being here wears off, they find a balance between this becoming fully Messi League Soccer and Inter Messi FC, and still aggressively promoting the Zelarayan/Mukhtar/Evander level of player, who are really the engine of MLS at this point in time (and will be after Messi's gone).
There was a point in time, before or right around when the Timbers joined MLS, that I would have been ecstatic about a Messi-level signing anywhere in MLS. But MLS in 2023 is vastly different than MLS in 2009-11 or so; back then, a Messi-level player would have absolutely changed what MLS was foundationally, and given it a legitimacy it didn't have. In 2023, though, MLS is a strong enough league that they don't need a legitimizer.
A long ways to go...to what? MLS is a good league. It's a fun league with great stories. It didn't need Messi to validate it or give it legitimacy in the eyes of anyone, except the most hardened eurosnob-type fan who would never deign to pay attention to this league until the Big Names showed up. But while they weren't paying attention, MLS built itself a solid, fun league!
I'm glad Messi's doing well here. I don't hope he fails. But I don't think Messi doing well here means that MLS is finally a legitimate league where once it was not, because I don't believe MLS lacked legitimacy in the first place.
For me, I liked the story line of him hitting a game winner in their first match, but Atlanta's inability to defend him off the ball yesterday was embarrassing (for Atlanta). I mean, he played a lot of minutes in a 4-0 game (which looked more like one of those occasional MLS laughers where one team just can't score to save their lives and the other team - well everything is bouncing the right way - games that usually end up like 5 or 7-0.
Is that an embarassment for the league? Not really. It is one game, with an aging best player in the world candidate on one team, in a tournament that some teams might not really be taking seriously (Miami is because they just signed 2 new DPs and this is their stage for the next month or so). I still highly doubt that Miami ends up being a "worst to first" story this season for MLS play. They have a hill to climb to even eek into the playoffs - that might be 10 points out of the playoffs but is really 20 points. because most of the teams ahead of them will earn at least another 10 points in their final 10 games. Teams are going to park the bus against them and smother Messi. Honestly I won't be surprised if he gets Concacaffed a bit in later rounds of this tourney against stronger Mexican sides. That will be the true test of MLS' maturity - will it demand he (and Busquets) be protected when teams start to care about winning in later rounds and start cynically fouling those two?
As for the marketing - MLS has never been that far away from this though. They have always taken a more NBA formula to marketing (market the stars and players rather than the play and teams) because names and personalities are much easier to market to casuals (who are the ones you are marketing to anyway - hard cores will be watching whether you advertise at all, antis will not be).
I think Mesi comes back to earth a bit with some time because about half the league will game plan and execute a whole lot better than Atlanta did yesterday. He and Busquets make them a way better team than before --- which just goes to show that a quality midfield spine can take even a garbage team and make them win again, if your 6 and 10 are struggling, so will your team.
I think most of us saw that (Paulson) and just ignored it. He wasn't stepping a foot out of that crowd, made Valeri come to him, and then appeared to go straight back to the tunnel where he probably watched.
I give him credit that he didn't want to make this about him and get a shower of lusty boos reigning down on Valeri's celebration, but I was a little surprised he even did as much as he did as it risked that possible outcome. There was no way he was taking the microphone or inserting himself into the celebration otherwise and without his errors of the last few years, he certainly would have done exactly that.
I don't think Paulson has much interest in selling (and if he did, he would do it in the next year as his investment is at least 10x what he bought it for). I think deep down he thinks if he lays low for long enough, all will be forgiven and that simply means he doesn't know Portlanders. I know people who still hold grudges over mismanagement of public scandals 50 years ago where everyone is dead, but they still think there should be more accountability.
"I don't think Paulson has much interest in selling (and if he did, he would do it in the next year as his investment is at least 10x what he bought it for)."
His initial outlay (his dad's, I guess, more accurately) was $35M. Forbes currently has the Timbers valued at $650M.
I wasn't surprised to see him at the ceremony, but I was also happy that he stayed as background-y as he could. Didn't detract from the moment for me at all, which was good.
His initial outlay was actually buying the Beavers and Timbers. He thought he was buying a AAA baseball team with a 2nd division soccer team thrown in - little did he know that was where the value actually was. That was $20m and established the business (Peregrine). I would strongly bet he lost money until about 2009 / 10.
Then he paid the $35m MLS expansion fee (more accurately, Peregrine, LLC did).
He then (or more accurately Peregrine, LLC did) paid for the first renovation of PGE Park --> Jeld-Wen Field which cost $36m - tenant improvements nearly all paid for by the tenant.
He then (or more accurately Peregrine, LLC did) paid for the 2nd renovation which was north of $85m further investment.
He then sold off, at some point, what was believed to be about a 20% share to an investment group (who would be buying the debt and the equity of that share, of course).
I don't list all of these to argue that somehow he is in the hole - no doubt he and his families equity position is more complicated than "they fronted $35m and he now has a $650m asset". I suspect that Peregrine, LLC holds at least $100m in debt if they financed capital and tenant improvements like most businesses did in the era of insanely low interest rates (2008-2022), hopefully for his sake at fixed rates if he plans to hold (though most commercial loans are either fully paid in 10 years or they are 10 year term loans amortized over 25 years so you never quite pay them off - you have to refi every 10 years and there is always a balance). Additionally somewhere between $70-140m of the value has been sold off.
Again, not pretending that he wasn't successful with his investment here, but his balance sheet probably looks more like +$200m than +$600m (plus some profit already realized when he sold the 20% stake) as many want to believe. That is still an incredible deal - but my suspicion is that he also thinks the Messi thing, if it dramatically raises the stature of MLS, might suddenly push him to +$600m if the value of the typical MLS team jumps to $1b in the next few years. That is where he is currently gaining equity, not paying down debt.
I really wanted his Beavers plan of demolishing the Coliseum and building a AAA stadium on that spot to happen. Obviously it worked out well overall because I love being a Timbers STH and going to games, and love the league, but that would have been a really cool thing had it come to pass.
"Messi still sitting on the bench. He turns his head. Do I see a smile? He says something to his teammate. Scratches his chin. Still intent on watching the game... Confirmed, Messi is still on the bench in his Miami pink kit. Just... Watching the game."
Evander’s goal was world class. Mora’s world class start to finish. Where does the new CB fit? Just finished watching him disembowel Messi, Cavini and Suarez in international game highlights?
It was a big surprise to see Niezgoda start, given his form this year, and somewhat of a surprise to see Moreno come in, given the drama of late. As for Niezgoda, he contributed positively to the win, but unfortunately, couldn't buy a bucket. The last one right before he was subbed looks like a gimme, but there wasn't a lot of angle and he did get it up rather quickly, but was somewhat unlucky. I'm sure a lot of folks will disagree with that, but, he did a lot of good stuff, too. The bonus is that Boli and Mora will be fully fit for Wednesday, and maybe it is safe to say that all is well with Moreno moving forward.
2. Backline can D fairly well, but can't take their game to the next level:
You can count on McGraw and Zup to clear, duel, sniff out stuff and be on top of things in general, but they are not playing the ball out of the back consistently and I see this as an area for improvement. It leads to long spells of having to play defense and not controlling the game.
3. Evander is carving out his identity:
He is showing his class more and more, and it's clear his future here is as an 8, kind of like a Xavi. It would be really cool to see him and Moreno as 8s and own the midfield. It would mean dropping Paredes or Chara from the lineup, and the way Paredes works, he is basically saying to the coach, "you can't take me off." So, I'll have to wait for the Moreno and Evander 8 pairing, and probably never.
4. Moreno is out of the doghouse but needs a place at the table:
Now that he appears out of the doghouse, will Moreno start? It would mean starting over Asprilla on the wing . Ordinarily I would say yes in a heartbeat, but my only cause for pause is that Moreno is better on the inside and somewhat ineffective on the outside. Would he be better than Asprilla? Over time, I think he would be, but again, I'd prefer him in a different role to see him really flourish.
5. I hope Gio is saving Blanco for Tigres
It was interesting to see Moreno go in before Blanco, and I can't imagine that sat well with Blanco. I know a lot of folks have cast off Blanco and want to see him ride into the sunset, but for me, he still has something to offer, and the crowd loves him. I can't wait to see what Gio does with Blanco vs Tigres.
6. Timbers had a plan:
It looked to me like when they did try to play the ball out of the back, there were some coordinated efforts in the movements of the midfield in the middle of the field, especially, and in the final third, occasionally. I'd just like to see the plan include playing it out of the back more.
7. Bingham solidifying his spot:
Maybe he offers something that Ivavcic isn't doing - maybe a leadership type of characteristic? Maybe more communication?
1 - I know you're a Niezgoda guy, but he's clearly lost his spot to Boli, will never be overtaken by Nathan, and will lose his spot to Mora once Mora gets 60 minutes fit. And yes, I'm a Mora guy, biased, but I think he's going to flippin' shine with Evander.
1a - speaking of everybody - I am as tired of the one dimensional Loria as anyone, but I am not going to ignore how he contributed again.
2 - Backline identity - I think this game let Bravo show what he's good at (playing D in a ton of space and springing attacks and having a motor that is incredible - and show what he's weak at (he gets his hands on the ball in/near the box more than any player I can recall) and (mistimed lunges that leave his centerbacks in uncomfortable spots).
3 - Evander just isn't the player that we thought he was - but he's still looking really, really good - but he's not the next Valeri, he's totally different. He's methodical and super strong on the ball, and I think he's figuring some things out about Prov. Park, because he had a ton of passes look 2/3 speed and easily intercepted. But he's suited for MLS in that defenders just don't physically knock him off the ball - he's super strong and I think he's fitting in great.
4 - Moreno started the Mora goal with an outstanding play and he really might be able to fit back in? I hope so. I hope last night was a resurgence, even if it's just for this year.
5 - We are on 100% different pages on Blanco. I think it's painfully obvious he's washed and can hardly move and is tremendously unfit for even 20 minutes, you think he's going to spark the Timbers vs a tough Liga team. I hope you're right. But I'd personally rather see Mabiala out there in the last 5 minutes rather than Blanco. (harsh words, but I'm completely not sold on his recovery and I'm also not thinking we'll see Mabiala again unless something tragically goes wrong).
6 - I agree, I thought we had a plan, and it was mostly good. We struggled with playing out of the back, but... we didn't in the second half. We looked good. We also had better defensive balance when our fullbacks and Paredes got trapped way up the pitch. Low bar, but it was better than usual. And it showed.
7 - Gah, I can't stand Bingham, but he's had 3 solid games in a row (other than goal kicks sailing into the 5th row) after Ivacic's worst outing of his career (visually), and I think the job is Bingham's unless something changes. We've been ok with him, he's stopped shots and out D is looking a bit more cohesive, so... good play is good play, and he's doing the job ok.
I tried to give Niezgoda a fair chance, but he's just not producing. He's way down on my pecking order, too. It's a shame, really. He did some positive things, though, and I think it is more a revelation of Gio's managerial style giving him a shot once again. But also, just wanted to give him a tiny bit of credit. So great to see Mora, and I thought a week or so ago that he looked really good and he was going to stabilize the attack and really make it dynamic in that he can keep possession and also run some balls down. I have to say, he showed some quicks on his goal. Look out!
LOL on Blanco. I get it, but I'm not ready to write him off just yet. The wing situation is getting crowded, though, and Blanco may not find many chances unless injury or congested schedule. He barely got in last night.
I'm getting used to Bingham, but really wanted Ivavcic to work out.
Watching last night I thought that Bingham was much more engaged with the defenders than Ivacic is. It looks like a personality thing but maybe the entire defense just plays better when Bingham's back there.
Ivacic is a better shot stopper for sure. And s better distributor marginally. What he isn’t though ks mobile at all. And it absolutely kills our entire back line. I would take clearances 10 rows deep to 1 v 1 with the keeper because he doesn’t come off his line. You know when they can’t score? When the ball is in the stands.
We were there for the Columbus match a few fans were able to get nagbes autograph before the game as they walked in. The visiting team does come in on the other side of the pitch.
I kind of wondered what was up with miami, but now I'm looking at it it seems that they are building up a pretty decent club.
Not just Messi but also alba, suarez, and martino, who just a couple weeks ago became their head coach... Looking over Martino's record, the guy's a beast.
Given his connection with messi, and with suarez, and his kind of insane record, I don't see how that alone couldn't appreciably elevate Inter Miami.
It seems like a lot more than just a celebrity signing to me.
I don't know if this is all David Beckham's passion project or whatnot, but it makes me happy to see that such a radical reshuffling is possible, and makes me wonder if something like this will inevitably happen with the timbers.
Limp through the rest of this season and then follow Beckham's example and try to really elevate the team.
While I am fully on board with the "try to really elevate the team" idea this off season, I certainly hope that Ned doesn't feel it necessary to do so with aging European superstars like Miami is doing.
All those names you mention are definitely big names. But big names don't automatically make a good team; soccer isn't like the NBA where you can plug in one or two all-world level players and automatically be a dramatically better team overnight. Miami are still a terrible team, at least this season; with a dozen games under their belts this group might be better next year, but that also assumes that everyone not named Messi is as good as advertised, which I'm not sure is something to be banked on unequivocally.
MLS has spent years fighting the "retirement league for aging European superstars" image, very successfully - and now the league is fully embracing that approach with Miami, and it's hugely disappointing, at least to me. It'll sell tickets and MLS Pass subscriptions, and get eyeballs on the team, but I'm not sure it's a sustainable way to build a good team.
Don't misunderstand: I fully get why they went after Messi, and getting him was big. But instead of surrounding him with his friends and coach from 10 years ago in Barcelona, why not surround him with young talent that can grow together as a team, and can still be a team when Messi does finally decide to retire?
The one move I unequivocally love of theirs was bringing Martino back into MLS as a coach. It remains to be seen how he'll get along with Josef Martinez - as I remember it, they butted heads quite a few times in Atlanta, although either/both of them may have healed that rift by now. But Martino's a great coach, and that alone should help Miami in the next couple years, even if it may be a little late for this year.
I definitely want the Timbers to feel like they can tear down/rebuild; I just want them to do it smarter and more sustainably.
If you're Messi, wouldn't you rather Busquets was threading the needle to get you the ball than some young guy you've never heard of? And as a fan, that's a no brainer. You talk like these guys can't play anymore. The point is, Messi wouldn't have come here if the league wasn't decent and on the rise and Beckham wasn't there. Miami can do it their way, and the Timbers can do it their way. The whole league doesn't need to follow the same script.
I was watching that Miami game. The way busquetes plays that ball first time. He sees passes others don’t. If they stay healthy and teams don’t just foul the bell out of them they could be scary
"Messi wouldn't have come here if the league wasn't decent and on the rise and Beckham wasn't there."
Messi came to MLS in large part because it's a low pressure league with zero stakes compared to where he's been. And I don't blame him - he's been under a ton of pressure his entire career, he may as well see out his last couple years in a league where he can just play basically for fun (and he's earned that right!).
But I also don't think that at his age and at this point in his career he will singlehandedly raise the level of MLS the way a lot of people seem to think he will. I don't think that's why he came here.
"You talk like these guys can't play anymore."
Messi and Suarez are 36. Busquets is 35. They can still play; they can't play at the level they could five years ago, and they won't be as good as they are now in two years. Counting on them all to stay healthy is also a huge risk.
I'm just not convinced that building a team around an aging core - marquee names of said core aside - is the smartest thing Beckham could have done, but he wanted to create Celebrity FC, so good on him for getting it done I guess. But I am definitely in the small minority of observers who will wait and see how the experiment goes and not just automatically assume it'll be a spectacular success.
We were talking about that in our section on Saturday, and also about how funny it would be if this league were still full of Steven Lenharts and Brek Sheas and the like.
Maybe having a core of veteran players and a coach who has worked with them in the past - to legendary success - will be a learning experience for the young 'uns, and elevate the culture of Miami FC towards better performance in years to come. Long term goals.
You're right! After watching Messi and co annihilate Atlanta -- you find that some of these other pieces are pretty good when they are being serviced by Messi or Busquets.
... and you have got Alba, and soon Suarez. They've all played together at the absolute top of worldwide soccer - Barça during its peak. Hard to see how those dudes plus Marino aren't going to form a powerhouse, even if they're geriatric.
I figure Beckham wants a winning legacy in his coaching, and it'll be cool to see what happens next season.
I watched both of Miamis games (the CA on tape after I knew what happened) and the Atlanta one yesterday live. As I said elsewhere, goes to show what happens to a team with OK pieces but in a parity league, OK makes you last place if you can't mesh - and add class 6 and 10 and voila - you are good.
Watching those, I once again questioned MP's ambition. Can I see him working with MLS to buy say CR7 (who I don't really want at age 39 before next season kicks off ... but a 35 year old 3 years ago? - Sure, I would take that at striker). Would he be willing to do what that takes - i.e. spend the money on the technology for a grass pitch in PP? If the rest of the league is going to take this Messi moment to go spend on household names, I suspect they are going to not play in Portland (or Seattle, or Vancouver, or New England, or Atlanta) due to the plastic pitches. I have been a Timber fan long enough (went to my first match in 1976) to understand that there are expensive technical challenges to grass so I am not here to start that debate - it has been done to death in every Timbers forum. My only question is when will we have an owner bold enough to try, rich enough to spend, and savvy enough to tell the city that if they pitch in on the structure / capital investment in the building that they own, they will let them raise the rent so they actually make money of the deal in the end? The time is now for this kind of thinking, otherwise Portland gets stuck in MLS 2.0 mode and becomes a perennial also ran, not a leader who can attract world class talents or even top end less than WC which is, over the last 10 years, been the recipe for MLS success and trophies - teams like we currently have, where we are overspending on at least half of DPs and TAM players and rosters tossed together that just don't mesh - may become normal.
... when will we have an owner bold enough to try, rich enough to spend, and savvy enough to tell the city that if they pitch in on the structure / capital investment in the building that they own...
A BIG question about this: how much would that capital and infrastructure investment need to be?
It's very possible that the expense of bringing a real grass pitch to PP isn't cost-effective unless seating capacity is increased again, to also qualify PP to host FIFA matches. That might well indicate a need to have ~40,000 capacity. \
That's more than the capacity of PP's current footprint, and brings in the MUCH BIGGER infrastructure investment. How can PTFC increase that footprint - and at what cost?
There hasn't been any threat or repercussions of NOT spending and quite frankly I wonder if it would be cheaper than we think. There was grass in that stadium before - for decades. There has been temporary grass in it several times in recent decades (90s for USMNT qualifier and friendly, 2000ish WWC games x 2). It was hard to maintain when permanent. I can't imagine it wouldn't be hybrid grass anyway which is what most of the world plays on (because grass in EVERY stadium in the world is hard to maintain).
But what I am saying is that their was no problem in taking the easy route. But the Thorns players are starting to complain about it. The NWSL players in general revolted against the idea of playing their championship on plastic (which was a little ironic since MLS cup would be played there a couple of months later as the argument was "men wouldn't have to do this" -- though the early kick off time because of the crappy NWSL TV contract and west coast location probably was more impactful than the pitch in that decision). If now MLS players start to say we cannot continue to use plastic pitches and high profile players refuse to play on them, there will be suddenly economic pressure for a change.
There are many other revenue streams beyond tickets. I have zero inside knowledge of any estimates and suspect it is less infrastructure to the stadium (which would probably be rebuilding Tanner Creek's pipe/channel so it lasts another 100 years, reinforcing the ceiling of said pipe/channel (underfloor of the playing surface), putting in a drainage system and pumps to get water out and an irrigation system on top of that, then a foot or two of soil probably raising pitch level. There is probably some improved infrastructure outside the stadium needed too to handle both irrigation and drainage, but max water volumes draining wouldn't be any more than current (total yearly would be due to irrigation, but the system should be able to handle that runoff on dry days). The city should gladly be in for doing that since they will be able to bill for the water.
The expensive maintenance part is probably a grow light system (and then extra staff time to maintain a grass pitch), but most European teams have these, it is not like we are inventing some new technology.
I think that the cost and effort is a lot less than has been previously stated. A lot of people just wanted the Timbers / MLS to succeed back in 2009-11. They have not only done that, the exceeded wildest expectations at the time. As such, a lot of us were also willing to swallow the FO's excuses for no grass pitch because that seemed like such a stupid barrier in a city known for putting up stupid barriers to success ("if we can't have it all and perfect, then why accept something really good at all" seems to be the city motto sometimes). It isn't cheap, it isn't easy, but if MP ever wants back in the supporters good graces, he needs to make a grand gesture, not just slink around in the shadows.
". I have been a Timber fan long enough (went to my first match in 1976) to understand that there are expensive technical challenges to grass so I am not here to start that debate - it has been done to death in every Timbers forum"
I'm new to this whole scene so I lack perspective, but I would imagine that considering PTFC's
valuation - approaching 700 million dollars - money for a grass pitch wouldn't be a problem.
As I said above, I think it is just priorities of where the money is spent.
That $650m valuation also isn't cash while Peregrine Sports owns that value, there is also debt against it and a party other than the Paulson family owns 20% of it. For the purposes of round numbers, lets say the Paulson's stake is worth 500m, and their share of the debt is $200m (it is probably less, but round). Of course that $300m isn't just sitting around in cash, it is equity / book value only realized when you sell. That does give them opportunity to either sell more and use that cash or borrow against it using Peregrine as collateral. Probably not so excited about borrowing given current interest rates, so part of me thinks this whole thing isn't even on the table for another couple of seasons until the price of borrowing money becomes really cheap again.
But, as I said above there has been no economic pressure to change. Plastic is easy and predictable from a cost standpoint. Grass is more complicated for many reasons (drainage, Tanner Creek bed running right under the stadium, light issues for grass to grow with roof and MAC club, lack of irrigation infrastructure to name just a few starters). If marquee players start saying "I won't play in Portland because of artificial turf" (it has happened a couple of times, maybe just once - Thierry Henry, IIRC) then there will absolutely immediately be pressure from every direction (TV partners, fans, league, etc.).
Henry said that before he ever set foot in Portland, and then...he played here a few times, and PP's turf was in fact the only artificial turf he played on in his time here until the game mentioned in the link below. It is widely regarded to be the best in MLS.
Is it still "widely regarded to be the best in MLS?" That article is from 2014. (Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just curious, didn't know PP had that rep)
I believe so, but also, people in and around the game have stopped commenting on turf in recent years, because it has gotten better across the board so variability in surface from stadium to stadium is less of an issue.
I get the feeling that the Timbers have always maintained their turf better than most places, and unlike Atlanta, Seattle and New England, there's no NFL team pounding it into submission when soccer's not being played on it, so in my heart it's absolutely the best...hahaha.
After the insane negativity in the game thread, I hope there are at least some positive replies here. There was something to be excited about nearly everywhere.
There are things to be happy about after this. If nothing else, the look of absolute joy on Mora's face after he scored, the look of absolute joy on his teammates' faces after Mora scored... The entire sequence leading up to that goal from Moreno (played well), then Paredes (who apparently now just runs all over the pitch doing whatever he wants, and I like it), the Loria (what a pass), to Mora who looked HEALTHY.
I hope there are other happy people out there.
Happy person here. I stopped following the match threads a couple seasons ago because it seemed that a majority of the post were always negative/complaining.
I mean, it's possible to hold two thoughts in one's head at once. I'm as happy about a win as I can be, given that that win came in a tournament I don't care about. I'm also still of the mind that this team needs major work and a major overhaul - starting with the coach - this off season, no matter what happens next.
I like it when the Timbers win, and watching them win in person on a beautiful (if a bit warm) night will always make me happy, but this team is still a complete mess, and for long stretches of last night they did nothing to convince me they're improving in a sustainable way.
The Mora goal, like Blanco's last week, was really, really good to see as a reward for so much work to get back to the team, and the Evander goal was...wow. I know Messi is MLS' cash cow/wonder boy/darling/media everything right now, but Evander's goal was every bit as good.
I can't wait to surround Evander with more talented pieces and see what he can do.
Count me in as being happy about the result. Not happy about the season or Gio's decision to start Goda and ride him so long, but I can't have everything.
The passing sequence leading to Mora's goal has to be best of the season. Very encouraging.
That is the comment I came here to post. It was like a little game of the floor is lava. So many great volleys...
We all have rightfully criticized Gio plenty this year, but let’s give credit where it’s due: the Quakes ran us over in the first half, we had no answers for their press and they were cutting us apart with their passing (and yes that is Gio’s fault because his initial game plan clearly didn’t work), but during the break he clearly made some adjustments and we controlled the game. San Jose had almost nothing going forward, we had tons more chances than they did, we looked organized, and the subs all made an impact. I think Gio deserves a lot of credit for this win
MORENO IS BACK!! I’m so happy about that. He clearly made an impact as soon as he came on and showed that he’s got the talent to be a star. His touches to start the second goal were brilliant, as was Paredes’ touch, Loria’s through ball, and Mora’s finish. I hope he gets the start Wednesday, he’s a great player that we need in form if we want to be competitive.
Niezgoda was... alright! Good, even! When he had the ball at least. He has zero presence up top when he doesn’t have the ball which is very frustrating, but when he did get the ball he made some good plays and got the assist (not like that was anything special though). Honestly he looks so devoid of confidence that I don’t even blame him that much for missing the wide open goal, I just feel bad for the guy and the ball game at him pretty quickly. We’re definitely better with Boli or Mora up top (I hope Mora starts Wednesday) as they have material impact on the game even without the ball, but I was happy with Jaro’s performance.
McGraw made a play at 57:55 that was incredible. After the second goal, that’s my favorite play of the game. Saved what would’ve been a 1v1 with an incredible spin and poke, and yeah if Jebo was expecting that then he could’ve controlled it, but he wasn’t (because who the hell expected Zac to do that???) and it bounced right off of him... gonna be honest, I have no idea how he timed that so perfectly, but man I love the guy to death and he’s such a great defender. My MOTM
Another step in the right direction for this team, but unfortunately the team has taken way too many steps backwards, so it’s gonna take a lot of forward steps for me to start believing again
The new MLS is going to take some getting used to. I couldn’t go Saturday, and had to watch on TV. The call of the game was interesting. But this is our world now:
“Not Messi passes to Not Messi. Bad touch by Not Messi cleared away by Not Messi. Not Messi’s Team reported to us midweek that ‘not Messi related’ and also ‘not Messi related.' And Not Messi hits a stunner from Messi-5 yards out!"
Hahaha you're not wrong. I should have screenshotted it, but on Saturday afternoon literally every single story on the home screen of the MLS app was Messi or Messi-related.
I got super excited when an Argentinian #10 came in for the Timbers on Sat, because I thought it was Messi, based on the coverage I'd seen in the last couple weeks. I just assume he's on every team now.
Apple TV has REALLY leaned into it too.
This is the kind of thing that would normally really bother me. Somehow I just can’t get worked up about it.
Maybe the Messi boost will get MP to sell. BTW, I spotted Paulson handing Valeri an axe just off the field on Valeri Night.
It bothers me mostly because, while I understand Messi is one of the 3-4 greatest players of all time, and while it will definitely boost eyeballs on the league in the short run, I can't get past the fact that MLS spent years trying not to be exactly this kind of league - the kind that signs guys looking for one last payday in the sun - and now they're hyping the hell out of a guy who's doing exactly that.
Like I've said all along - I don't begrudge him doing it. He's earned the right to do whatever he wants. But for MLS to completely abandon, even temporarily, their preference for marketing the league through its broader young talent base is frustrating.
I mostly hope that as the novelty of Messi being here wears off, they find a balance between this becoming fully Messi League Soccer and Inter Messi FC, and still aggressively promoting the Zelarayan/Mukhtar/Evander level of player, who are really the engine of MLS at this point in time (and will be after Messi's gone).
There was a point in time, before or right around when the Timbers joined MLS, that I would have been ecstatic about a Messi-level signing anywhere in MLS. But MLS in 2023 is vastly different than MLS in 2009-11 or so; back then, a Messi-level player would have absolutely changed what MLS was foundationally, and given it a legitimacy it didn't have. In 2023, though, MLS is a strong enough league that they don't need a legitimizer.
It is true MLS is better now than 12 years ago, but Messi is showing that it still has a long ways to go.
A long ways to go...to what? MLS is a good league. It's a fun league with great stories. It didn't need Messi to validate it or give it legitimacy in the eyes of anyone, except the most hardened eurosnob-type fan who would never deign to pay attention to this league until the Big Names showed up. But while they weren't paying attention, MLS built itself a solid, fun league!
I'm glad Messi's doing well here. I don't hope he fails. But I don't think Messi doing well here means that MLS is finally a legitimate league where once it was not, because I don't believe MLS lacked legitimacy in the first place.
Legitimacy? No. I was talking about quality.
For me, I liked the story line of him hitting a game winner in their first match, but Atlanta's inability to defend him off the ball yesterday was embarrassing (for Atlanta). I mean, he played a lot of minutes in a 4-0 game (which looked more like one of those occasional MLS laughers where one team just can't score to save their lives and the other team - well everything is bouncing the right way - games that usually end up like 5 or 7-0.
Is that an embarassment for the league? Not really. It is one game, with an aging best player in the world candidate on one team, in a tournament that some teams might not really be taking seriously (Miami is because they just signed 2 new DPs and this is their stage for the next month or so). I still highly doubt that Miami ends up being a "worst to first" story this season for MLS play. They have a hill to climb to even eek into the playoffs - that might be 10 points out of the playoffs but is really 20 points. because most of the teams ahead of them will earn at least another 10 points in their final 10 games. Teams are going to park the bus against them and smother Messi. Honestly I won't be surprised if he gets Concacaffed a bit in later rounds of this tourney against stronger Mexican sides. That will be the true test of MLS' maturity - will it demand he (and Busquets) be protected when teams start to care about winning in later rounds and start cynically fouling those two?
As for the marketing - MLS has never been that far away from this though. They have always taken a more NBA formula to marketing (market the stars and players rather than the play and teams) because names and personalities are much easier to market to casuals (who are the ones you are marketing to anyway - hard cores will be watching whether you advertise at all, antis will not be).
I think Mesi comes back to earth a bit with some time because about half the league will game plan and execute a whole lot better than Atlanta did yesterday. He and Busquets make them a way better team than before --- which just goes to show that a quality midfield spine can take even a garbage team and make them win again, if your 6 and 10 are struggling, so will your team.
I think most of us saw that (Paulson) and just ignored it. He wasn't stepping a foot out of that crowd, made Valeri come to him, and then appeared to go straight back to the tunnel where he probably watched.
I give him credit that he didn't want to make this about him and get a shower of lusty boos reigning down on Valeri's celebration, but I was a little surprised he even did as much as he did as it risked that possible outcome. There was no way he was taking the microphone or inserting himself into the celebration otherwise and without his errors of the last few years, he certainly would have done exactly that.
I don't think Paulson has much interest in selling (and if he did, he would do it in the next year as his investment is at least 10x what he bought it for). I think deep down he thinks if he lays low for long enough, all will be forgiven and that simply means he doesn't know Portlanders. I know people who still hold grudges over mismanagement of public scandals 50 years ago where everyone is dead, but they still think there should be more accountability.
"I don't think Paulson has much interest in selling (and if he did, he would do it in the next year as his investment is at least 10x what he bought it for)."
His initial outlay (his dad's, I guess, more accurately) was $35M. Forbes currently has the Timbers valued at $650M.
I wasn't surprised to see him at the ceremony, but I was also happy that he stayed as background-y as he could. Didn't detract from the moment for me at all, which was good.
His initial outlay was actually buying the Beavers and Timbers. He thought he was buying a AAA baseball team with a 2nd division soccer team thrown in - little did he know that was where the value actually was. That was $20m and established the business (Peregrine). I would strongly bet he lost money until about 2009 / 10.
Then he paid the $35m MLS expansion fee (more accurately, Peregrine, LLC did).
He then (or more accurately Peregrine, LLC did) paid for the first renovation of PGE Park --> Jeld-Wen Field which cost $36m - tenant improvements nearly all paid for by the tenant.
He then (or more accurately Peregrine, LLC did) paid for the 2nd renovation which was north of $85m further investment.
He then sold off, at some point, what was believed to be about a 20% share to an investment group (who would be buying the debt and the equity of that share, of course).
I don't list all of these to argue that somehow he is in the hole - no doubt he and his families equity position is more complicated than "they fronted $35m and he now has a $650m asset". I suspect that Peregrine, LLC holds at least $100m in debt if they financed capital and tenant improvements like most businesses did in the era of insanely low interest rates (2008-2022), hopefully for his sake at fixed rates if he plans to hold (though most commercial loans are either fully paid in 10 years or they are 10 year term loans amortized over 25 years so you never quite pay them off - you have to refi every 10 years and there is always a balance). Additionally somewhere between $70-140m of the value has been sold off.
Again, not pretending that he wasn't successful with his investment here, but his balance sheet probably looks more like +$200m than +$600m (plus some profit already realized when he sold the 20% stake) as many want to believe. That is still an incredible deal - but my suspicion is that he also thinks the Messi thing, if it dramatically raises the stature of MLS, might suddenly push him to +$600m if the value of the typical MLS team jumps to $1b in the next few years. That is where he is currently gaining equity, not paying down debt.
I really wanted his Beavers plan of demolishing the Coliseum and building a AAA stadium on that spot to happen. Obviously it worked out well overall because I love being a Timbers STH and going to games, and love the league, but that would have been a really cool thing had it come to pass.
I also liked:
"Messi still sitting on the bench. He turns his head. Do I see a smile? He says something to his teammate. Scratches his chin. Still intent on watching the game... Confirmed, Messi is still on the bench in his Miami pink kit. Just... Watching the game."
Oh yes, we all have to get used to Messi League Soccer.
Evander’s goal was world class. Mora’s world class start to finish. Where does the new CB fit? Just finished watching him disembowel Messi, Cavini and Suarez in international game highlights?
Takeaways:
1)Gio gives everyone a chance:
It was a big surprise to see Niezgoda start, given his form this year, and somewhat of a surprise to see Moreno come in, given the drama of late. As for Niezgoda, he contributed positively to the win, but unfortunately, couldn't buy a bucket. The last one right before he was subbed looks like a gimme, but there wasn't a lot of angle and he did get it up rather quickly, but was somewhat unlucky. I'm sure a lot of folks will disagree with that, but, he did a lot of good stuff, too. The bonus is that Boli and Mora will be fully fit for Wednesday, and maybe it is safe to say that all is well with Moreno moving forward.
2. Backline can D fairly well, but can't take their game to the next level:
You can count on McGraw and Zup to clear, duel, sniff out stuff and be on top of things in general, but they are not playing the ball out of the back consistently and I see this as an area for improvement. It leads to long spells of having to play defense and not controlling the game.
3. Evander is carving out his identity:
He is showing his class more and more, and it's clear his future here is as an 8, kind of like a Xavi. It would be really cool to see him and Moreno as 8s and own the midfield. It would mean dropping Paredes or Chara from the lineup, and the way Paredes works, he is basically saying to the coach, "you can't take me off." So, I'll have to wait for the Moreno and Evander 8 pairing, and probably never.
4. Moreno is out of the doghouse but needs a place at the table:
Now that he appears out of the doghouse, will Moreno start? It would mean starting over Asprilla on the wing . Ordinarily I would say yes in a heartbeat, but my only cause for pause is that Moreno is better on the inside and somewhat ineffective on the outside. Would he be better than Asprilla? Over time, I think he would be, but again, I'd prefer him in a different role to see him really flourish.
5. I hope Gio is saving Blanco for Tigres
It was interesting to see Moreno go in before Blanco, and I can't imagine that sat well with Blanco. I know a lot of folks have cast off Blanco and want to see him ride into the sunset, but for me, he still has something to offer, and the crowd loves him. I can't wait to see what Gio does with Blanco vs Tigres.
6. Timbers had a plan:
It looked to me like when they did try to play the ball out of the back, there were some coordinated efforts in the movements of the midfield in the middle of the field, especially, and in the final third, occasionally. I'd just like to see the plan include playing it out of the back more.
7. Bingham solidifying his spot:
Maybe he offers something that Ivavcic isn't doing - maybe a leadership type of characteristic? Maybe more communication?
1 - I know you're a Niezgoda guy, but he's clearly lost his spot to Boli, will never be overtaken by Nathan, and will lose his spot to Mora once Mora gets 60 minutes fit. And yes, I'm a Mora guy, biased, but I think he's going to flippin' shine with Evander.
1a - speaking of everybody - I am as tired of the one dimensional Loria as anyone, but I am not going to ignore how he contributed again.
2 - Backline identity - I think this game let Bravo show what he's good at (playing D in a ton of space and springing attacks and having a motor that is incredible - and show what he's weak at (he gets his hands on the ball in/near the box more than any player I can recall) and (mistimed lunges that leave his centerbacks in uncomfortable spots).
3 - Evander just isn't the player that we thought he was - but he's still looking really, really good - but he's not the next Valeri, he's totally different. He's methodical and super strong on the ball, and I think he's figuring some things out about Prov. Park, because he had a ton of passes look 2/3 speed and easily intercepted. But he's suited for MLS in that defenders just don't physically knock him off the ball - he's super strong and I think he's fitting in great.
4 - Moreno started the Mora goal with an outstanding play and he really might be able to fit back in? I hope so. I hope last night was a resurgence, even if it's just for this year.
5 - We are on 100% different pages on Blanco. I think it's painfully obvious he's washed and can hardly move and is tremendously unfit for even 20 minutes, you think he's going to spark the Timbers vs a tough Liga team. I hope you're right. But I'd personally rather see Mabiala out there in the last 5 minutes rather than Blanco. (harsh words, but I'm completely not sold on his recovery and I'm also not thinking we'll see Mabiala again unless something tragically goes wrong).
6 - I agree, I thought we had a plan, and it was mostly good. We struggled with playing out of the back, but... we didn't in the second half. We looked good. We also had better defensive balance when our fullbacks and Paredes got trapped way up the pitch. Low bar, but it was better than usual. And it showed.
7 - Gah, I can't stand Bingham, but he's had 3 solid games in a row (other than goal kicks sailing into the 5th row) after Ivacic's worst outing of his career (visually), and I think the job is Bingham's unless something changes. We've been ok with him, he's stopped shots and out D is looking a bit more cohesive, so... good play is good play, and he's doing the job ok.
I think we're pretty much in agreement!
I tried to give Niezgoda a fair chance, but he's just not producing. He's way down on my pecking order, too. It's a shame, really. He did some positive things, though, and I think it is more a revelation of Gio's managerial style giving him a shot once again. But also, just wanted to give him a tiny bit of credit. So great to see Mora, and I thought a week or so ago that he looked really good and he was going to stabilize the attack and really make it dynamic in that he can keep possession and also run some balls down. I have to say, he showed some quicks on his goal. Look out!
LOL on Blanco. I get it, but I'm not ready to write him off just yet. The wing situation is getting crowded, though, and Blanco may not find many chances unless injury or congested schedule. He barely got in last night.
I'm getting used to Bingham, but really wanted Ivavcic to work out.
Watching last night I thought that Bingham was much more engaged with the defenders than Ivacic is. It looks like a personality thing but maybe the entire defense just plays better when Bingham's back there.
Ivacic is a better shot stopper for sure. And s better distributor marginally. What he isn’t though ks mobile at all. And it absolutely kills our entire back line. I would take clearances 10 rows deep to 1 v 1 with the keeper because he doesn’t come off his line. You know when they can’t score? When the ball is in the stands.
speaking of defense, I noticed that it was more of a 4-1-4-1 than the usual 4-4-2. I think it worked out a little better.
Random ish question here, but I have a Mexican friend coming in to town who is a lifelong Tigres supporter.
I would love to get her Tigres autographs...
I have heard that visiting team players also pass an autograph / selfie line 2.5 hours before the match, except on the opposite side of the park?
Can anyone confirm this?
We were there for the Columbus match a few fans were able to get nagbes autograph before the game as they walked in. The visiting team does come in on the other side of the pitch.
Usually, you'll see a team bus go by 18th and they'll get off at the driveway between PP and the MAC. Probably best to wait right there.
I kind of wondered what was up with miami, but now I'm looking at it it seems that they are building up a pretty decent club.
Not just Messi but also alba, suarez, and martino, who just a couple weeks ago became their head coach... Looking over Martino's record, the guy's a beast.
Given his connection with messi, and with suarez, and his kind of insane record, I don't see how that alone couldn't appreciably elevate Inter Miami.
It seems like a lot more than just a celebrity signing to me.
I don't know if this is all David Beckham's passion project or whatnot, but it makes me happy to see that such a radical reshuffling is possible, and makes me wonder if something like this will inevitably happen with the timbers.
Limp through the rest of this season and then follow Beckham's example and try to really elevate the team.
While I am fully on board with the "try to really elevate the team" idea this off season, I certainly hope that Ned doesn't feel it necessary to do so with aging European superstars like Miami is doing.
All those names you mention are definitely big names. But big names don't automatically make a good team; soccer isn't like the NBA where you can plug in one or two all-world level players and automatically be a dramatically better team overnight. Miami are still a terrible team, at least this season; with a dozen games under their belts this group might be better next year, but that also assumes that everyone not named Messi is as good as advertised, which I'm not sure is something to be banked on unequivocally.
MLS has spent years fighting the "retirement league for aging European superstars" image, very successfully - and now the league is fully embracing that approach with Miami, and it's hugely disappointing, at least to me. It'll sell tickets and MLS Pass subscriptions, and get eyeballs on the team, but I'm not sure it's a sustainable way to build a good team.
Don't misunderstand: I fully get why they went after Messi, and getting him was big. But instead of surrounding him with his friends and coach from 10 years ago in Barcelona, why not surround him with young talent that can grow together as a team, and can still be a team when Messi does finally decide to retire?
The one move I unequivocally love of theirs was bringing Martino back into MLS as a coach. It remains to be seen how he'll get along with Josef Martinez - as I remember it, they butted heads quite a few times in Atlanta, although either/both of them may have healed that rift by now. But Martino's a great coach, and that alone should help Miami in the next couple years, even if it may be a little late for this year.
I definitely want the Timbers to feel like they can tear down/rebuild; I just want them to do it smarter and more sustainably.
If you're Messi, wouldn't you rather Busquets was threading the needle to get you the ball than some young guy you've never heard of? And as a fan, that's a no brainer. You talk like these guys can't play anymore. The point is, Messi wouldn't have come here if the league wasn't decent and on the rise and Beckham wasn't there. Miami can do it their way, and the Timbers can do it their way. The whole league doesn't need to follow the same script.
I was watching that Miami game. The way busquetes plays that ball first time. He sees passes others don’t. If they stay healthy and teams don’t just foul the bell out of them they could be scary
"Messi wouldn't have come here if the league wasn't decent and on the rise and Beckham wasn't there."
Messi came to MLS in large part because it's a low pressure league with zero stakes compared to where he's been. And I don't blame him - he's been under a ton of pressure his entire career, he may as well see out his last couple years in a league where he can just play basically for fun (and he's earned that right!).
But I also don't think that at his age and at this point in his career he will singlehandedly raise the level of MLS the way a lot of people seem to think he will. I don't think that's why he came here.
"You talk like these guys can't play anymore."
Messi and Suarez are 36. Busquets is 35. They can still play; they can't play at the level they could five years ago, and they won't be as good as they are now in two years. Counting on them all to stay healthy is also a huge risk.
I'm just not convinced that building a team around an aging core - marquee names of said core aside - is the smartest thing Beckham could have done, but he wanted to create Celebrity FC, so good on him for getting it done I guess. But I am definitely in the small minority of observers who will wait and see how the experiment goes and not just automatically assume it'll be a spectacular success.
It will certainly be interesting to see Celebrity Geri-AC travel and play all through summer in 2024... and with PRO refs.
We were talking about that in our section on Saturday, and also about how funny it would be if this league were still full of Steven Lenharts and Brek Sheas and the like.
Maybe having a core of veteran players and a coach who has worked with them in the past - to legendary success - will be a learning experience for the young 'uns, and elevate the culture of Miami FC towards better performance in years to come. Long term goals.
You're right! After watching Messi and co annihilate Atlanta -- you find that some of these other pieces are pretty good when they are being serviced by Messi or Busquets.
... and you have got Alba, and soon Suarez. They've all played together at the absolute top of worldwide soccer - Barça during its peak. Hard to see how those dudes plus Marino aren't going to form a powerhouse, even if they're geriatric.
I figure Beckham wants a winning legacy in his coaching, and it'll be cool to see what happens next season.
I watched both of Miamis games (the CA on tape after I knew what happened) and the Atlanta one yesterday live. As I said elsewhere, goes to show what happens to a team with OK pieces but in a parity league, OK makes you last place if you can't mesh - and add class 6 and 10 and voila - you are good.
Watching those, I once again questioned MP's ambition. Can I see him working with MLS to buy say CR7 (who I don't really want at age 39 before next season kicks off ... but a 35 year old 3 years ago? - Sure, I would take that at striker). Would he be willing to do what that takes - i.e. spend the money on the technology for a grass pitch in PP? If the rest of the league is going to take this Messi moment to go spend on household names, I suspect they are going to not play in Portland (or Seattle, or Vancouver, or New England, or Atlanta) due to the plastic pitches. I have been a Timber fan long enough (went to my first match in 1976) to understand that there are expensive technical challenges to grass so I am not here to start that debate - it has been done to death in every Timbers forum. My only question is when will we have an owner bold enough to try, rich enough to spend, and savvy enough to tell the city that if they pitch in on the structure / capital investment in the building that they own, they will let them raise the rent so they actually make money of the deal in the end? The time is now for this kind of thinking, otherwise Portland gets stuck in MLS 2.0 mode and becomes a perennial also ran, not a leader who can attract world class talents or even top end less than WC which is, over the last 10 years, been the recipe for MLS success and trophies - teams like we currently have, where we are overspending on at least half of DPs and TAM players and rosters tossed together that just don't mesh - may become normal.
... when will we have an owner bold enough to try, rich enough to spend, and savvy enough to tell the city that if they pitch in on the structure / capital investment in the building that they own...
A BIG question about this: how much would that capital and infrastructure investment need to be?
It's very possible that the expense of bringing a real grass pitch to PP isn't cost-effective unless seating capacity is increased again, to also qualify PP to host FIFA matches. That might well indicate a need to have ~40,000 capacity. \
That's more than the capacity of PP's current footprint, and brings in the MUCH BIGGER infrastructure investment. How can PTFC increase that footprint - and at what cost?
There hasn't been any threat or repercussions of NOT spending and quite frankly I wonder if it would be cheaper than we think. There was grass in that stadium before - for decades. There has been temporary grass in it several times in recent decades (90s for USMNT qualifier and friendly, 2000ish WWC games x 2). It was hard to maintain when permanent. I can't imagine it wouldn't be hybrid grass anyway which is what most of the world plays on (because grass in EVERY stadium in the world is hard to maintain).
But what I am saying is that their was no problem in taking the easy route. But the Thorns players are starting to complain about it. The NWSL players in general revolted against the idea of playing their championship on plastic (which was a little ironic since MLS cup would be played there a couple of months later as the argument was "men wouldn't have to do this" -- though the early kick off time because of the crappy NWSL TV contract and west coast location probably was more impactful than the pitch in that decision). If now MLS players start to say we cannot continue to use plastic pitches and high profile players refuse to play on them, there will be suddenly economic pressure for a change.
There are many other revenue streams beyond tickets. I have zero inside knowledge of any estimates and suspect it is less infrastructure to the stadium (which would probably be rebuilding Tanner Creek's pipe/channel so it lasts another 100 years, reinforcing the ceiling of said pipe/channel (underfloor of the playing surface), putting in a drainage system and pumps to get water out and an irrigation system on top of that, then a foot or two of soil probably raising pitch level. There is probably some improved infrastructure outside the stadium needed too to handle both irrigation and drainage, but max water volumes draining wouldn't be any more than current (total yearly would be due to irrigation, but the system should be able to handle that runoff on dry days). The city should gladly be in for doing that since they will be able to bill for the water.
The expensive maintenance part is probably a grow light system (and then extra staff time to maintain a grass pitch), but most European teams have these, it is not like we are inventing some new technology.
I think that the cost and effort is a lot less than has been previously stated. A lot of people just wanted the Timbers / MLS to succeed back in 2009-11. They have not only done that, the exceeded wildest expectations at the time. As such, a lot of us were also willing to swallow the FO's excuses for no grass pitch because that seemed like such a stupid barrier in a city known for putting up stupid barriers to success ("if we can't have it all and perfect, then why accept something really good at all" seems to be the city motto sometimes). It isn't cheap, it isn't easy, but if MP ever wants back in the supporters good graces, he needs to make a grand gesture, not just slink around in the shadows.
". I have been a Timber fan long enough (went to my first match in 1976) to understand that there are expensive technical challenges to grass so I am not here to start that debate - it has been done to death in every Timbers forum"
I'm new to this whole scene so I lack perspective, but I would imagine that considering PTFC's
valuation - approaching 700 million dollars - money for a grass pitch wouldn't be a problem.
As I said above, I think it is just priorities of where the money is spent.
That $650m valuation also isn't cash while Peregrine Sports owns that value, there is also debt against it and a party other than the Paulson family owns 20% of it. For the purposes of round numbers, lets say the Paulson's stake is worth 500m, and their share of the debt is $200m (it is probably less, but round). Of course that $300m isn't just sitting around in cash, it is equity / book value only realized when you sell. That does give them opportunity to either sell more and use that cash or borrow against it using Peregrine as collateral. Probably not so excited about borrowing given current interest rates, so part of me thinks this whole thing isn't even on the table for another couple of seasons until the price of borrowing money becomes really cheap again.
But, as I said above there has been no economic pressure to change. Plastic is easy and predictable from a cost standpoint. Grass is more complicated for many reasons (drainage, Tanner Creek bed running right under the stadium, light issues for grass to grow with roof and MAC club, lack of irrigation infrastructure to name just a few starters). If marquee players start saying "I won't play in Portland because of artificial turf" (it has happened a couple of times, maybe just once - Thierry Henry, IIRC) then there will absolutely immediately be pressure from every direction (TV partners, fans, league, etc.).
Henry said that before he ever set foot in Portland, and then...he played here a few times, and PP's turf was in fact the only artificial turf he played on in his time here until the game mentioned in the link below. It is widely regarded to be the best in MLS.
https://www.nbcsports.com/soccer/news/despite-artificial-turf-new-york-red-bulls-thierry-henry-says-hell-play-next-week-at-new-england
Is it still "widely regarded to be the best in MLS?" That article is from 2014. (Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just curious, didn't know PP had that rep)
I believe so, but also, people in and around the game have stopped commenting on turf in recent years, because it has gotten better across the board so variability in surface from stadium to stadium is less of an issue.
I get the feeling that the Timbers have always maintained their turf better than most places, and unlike Atlanta, Seattle and New England, there's no NFL team pounding it into submission when soccer's not being played on it, so in my heart it's absolutely the best...hahaha.