I’m glad Phil is interested in building from within: Academy to T2 to 1st Team. It’s no secret in Oregon Youth Soccer that the Timbers have very little scouting presence locally, and the less said about Timbers coaching/training opportunities for youth, the better. The club investing energy in the grassroots and in discovery would be a welcome change.
Listening to Ned, I don’t hear that same interest or commitment…as per the usual. In multiple conversations with front office staff (below the GM level of course), it’s been made clear to me that club focus was on S. American recruiting, now adding Europe, and that local recruiting was considered a waste of resources. Additionally, we have one of the worst ranked youth systems in MLS. The bulk of his commentary was on staff development, not in local talent identification or development…leading me to believe that ain’t the point of focus.
If we aren’t winning any time soon (and we aren’t, according to the intelligentsia and the eye test), it’d at least be nice to cheer for a local kid…
He didn't! also I'm a cat person but that's not the point.
He's just not very good at his job. His job is to build a team that should be competing for trophies. They're not doing that. They're competing for "let's get to the playoffs and see what happens" (which, it should be noted, they're also not that great at recently). And instead of getting better at competing for trophies, we get pissing matches with the best player this team has seen wear its shirt in over a decade, we get "maybe we should look at our flight schedule" as a way to explain the Timbers' perpetual slow starts, we get "but look at this atmosphere" when pressed on how good the team could be...we get everything but "we're trying to build a winning team for Timbers fans".
As Jamie notes in their comment, the current front office has decided that their priority is to make youth into professionals. That's fine. But that carries a cost, and that cost is in never being one of the elite teams in MLS; the Timbers are seemingly content with producing Local Heroes and Club Legends. I find that increasingly frustrating, because the purpose of a team is also to win the championship(s) of the league in which it plays, and the Timbers are increasingly showing, organizationally, no interest in that.
Look at how the more elite teams in this league build themselves; they don't exclusively rely on youth, even if they have good academies.
I have said before, and I'll say again: I don't think the goal is "win every year or fail". I'm not that demanding about it. But the Timbers, at this point in their MLS life, have no excuse - financially, developmentally, or support-wise - to not be at least as successful as the Sounders have been, insofar as they make the playoffs every single year and are always a threat. The fact that the Timbers don't even seem to be willing to try, despite having the bones of that in place last season before blowing it up over a dumbass fight, is endlessly frustrating to me.
I like watching individual players develop. I like individual moments of brilliance, and it's fun to see kids get better over a season or two. I just don't think that's enough, because I want the TEAM to do well overall too. I want the TEAM I have loved for decades to be in that top tier of MLS teams, to be mentioned in those preseason "who will be the best teams in the league this year" roundups.
The problem with the team last year was the back 5. Another year on Chara and Zuparic plus the ceiling is limited on how much better Zac or Araujo will be. It was crying out for a dominant center back that is comfortable on a high line -assuming that is how Neville wants to defend.
This iteration of the Timbers feels like mid to lower team.
Nothing about that interview made me feel like Ned is building the Timbers into being a consistently good team. He's definitely fully invested in the youth-as-project model, which, fine, I guess, but I'm not going to enjoy watching the upper tier of MLS teams separate itself even further from the Timbers while Ned celebrates how authentic the atmosphere still is at Providence Park compared to at LAFC or wherever.
I've been going to that barn since it was PGE Park. This Sunday will be the first home opener I've missed in almost 20 years (funeral, can't avoid it). I know the atmosphere is great. I love it, and I love being a part of it. But you know what? I'm tired of being sold that! I'm tired of that being the thing! I want a great team to match the great atmosphere! Why is that bad to want?
Ned, dammit, you should want to be building a strong-ass team that can actually BE in that upper echelon of teams, not just "gosh I hope we start stronger this year maybe we aren't flying on the right days we should look at that"
YOU KNOW WHAT NED MAYBE IT'S THE PLAYERS YOU'RE GETTING MAYBE THEY'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH OR MAYBE IT'S THE ONES YOU CHASED OFF OR MAYBE IT'S THAT YOU HIRED A COACH WHO ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH
Good heavens that interview just drives me crazy. Anyway, the season starts Sunday and I'm happy about that.
I'm still not confident in our centerbacks, insofar as they haven't changed and I don't know yet if the tactics will be adjusted to account for their strengths and weaknesses. I am encouraged that Ortiz and Fory at least fit the profiles of players who can contribute to defense and make some pressure off the backline, as well as by Ayala's continued growth and Mosquera's improvements. It will be ugly, but if hoofing the ball up to Kelsy helps clear it away from our backline sooner, than could help too, as long as it works and we don' immediately turn it over for a counter. Having a "10" with a willingness and ability to defend and press should help too.
I'm struck by the realization that, how many years in, we're still waiting for the Santi and Mosquera experiments to finally pan out and that it sounds like as soon as they reach some level of consistency, they'll be gone. I sure would like to enjoy a fully-formed team of players that want to be here a some point. That could be a benefit of developing local youth talent. I'm sure many of them will dream of playing internationally for a big 4 club or something but there's a lot of pride in coming up through your academy and succeeding your idols you saw in-person on Saturdays.
I like the U22 model in the sense that it focuses on bringing up players within a system rather than splashing cash on retirees. I like that the extra GAM can be spread around to balance the roster and improve depth. But damn, we really need to get those DPs and U22s right to pull it off. Evander was a success as far as his performance last year was concerned but everything else about that deal was pretty much a failure. What's our track record on other DPs?
Fanendo Adi - How many good seasons? How much silverware?
Kris Boyd - Failure
Lucas Melano - Failure
Yimmi Chara - Failure
Liam Ridgewell - Success
Sebastian Blanco - Success
Diego Valeri - Success
Diego Chara - Success (though his DP status was only temporary to amortize his transfer fee)
Felipe Mora - Success (but the status was a brief formality to skirt the salary cap)
Kenny Cooper - Failure
Brian Fernandez - Failure (Obviously, a great player, but ooof)
Did I miss anyone? That seems like about 50/50 with some asterisks that, I assert, put our actual DP success rate at more like 25%, at best. Honestly, I'm really only inclined to count Blanco and Valeri, which makes it more like 10%. Even with them, the last year or two of their contracts hurt the legacy from a player and club standpoint. That's just not good enough, even if one is more generous than my admittedly ruthless perspective.
This is to say nothing of our generally poor record with centerbacks. Even when we have good players, we misuse them. This was more bizarre when we had a former mediocre centerback for a GM. It's too soon to say about the U22 initiative but it would be interesting to see some analysis of how well we've spent our TAM/GAM. In all cases, how well have players done after their left the club? How many draftees have we developed (setting aside how us picking them and securing their rights holds their careers hostage and might ultimately tank them)?
The club is right to celebrate how many players continue to be involved in the club and the community after their careers, though the club roles seem very temporary and the community seems to be as much or more about the city, climate, culture, etc. than any devotion to the FO. We also have a more recent trend of players not wanting to be here to begin with and wanting to leave at every opportunity, as well as questionable handling of player injuries.
Advancing to MLS Cup three times isn't anything to scoff at, to be sure, even if we lost twice more ignominiously than Seattle has won. But I still expect a higher floor, more consistency, and more top-tier achievements. We can and should do better. I'd like to hear more ambition, fewer excuses, and zero self-congratulatory gaslighting.
"But I still expect a higher floor, more consistency"
This is EXACTLY it for me. The floor needs to be higher. Much higher. There's no reason it can't be. The top-tier achievements will flow from that. I know Timbers fans hate when I say this, but just look up I-5 for a great example of how that works. Seattle has it dialed in - they make the playoffs every. single. season (except one), and it generally leads to good things, even if it doesn't lead to a trophy. It's a self-perpetuating cycle; good players come to good teams, which have good systems, which produce good players, which leads to more good players wanting to play at the good club.
"I'd like to hear more ambition, fewer excuses, and zero self-congratulatory gaslighting."
The fact that this club is holding a celebratory night for the 10th anniversary of their lone MLS Cup win is...oof. I mean, I was there that weekend, and it remains the single greatest live sporting event I have ever been to (and I was at most of the 1995 Mariners playoff games, which were also pretty fkin amazing). But, it was 10 years ago, and it's their only championship (you can miss me with MLS Is Back, please, it's good but...not really), and to celebrate it? Very Uncle Rico "I can still throw this football over that mountain" vibes.
I guess I just don't understand why the team feels like they don't need to push to be in that upper tier of MLS. This club could be a crown jewel of MLS if it wanted to be, but Hank and his dipshit son don't seem to care any more, and that's the tragic part of the whole thing.
I believe that Merritt Paulson cares. He’s just incompetent and can’t help hiring people based on his ego rather than their abilities. Small wonder that someone born with a silver spoon in his mouth would make, for lack of a better term, reverse DEI hires. The good ol’ boy network runs strong.
And I totally forgot about MLS is Back. I know Seattle had advantages when it came to USOC but I envy their trophy case and how their FO handles a lot of business.
I’m glad Phil is interested in building from within: Academy to T2 to 1st Team. It’s no secret in Oregon Youth Soccer that the Timbers have very little scouting presence locally, and the less said about Timbers coaching/training opportunities for youth, the better. The club investing energy in the grassroots and in discovery would be a welcome change.
Listening to Ned, I don’t hear that same interest or commitment…as per the usual. In multiple conversations with front office staff (below the GM level of course), it’s been made clear to me that club focus was on S. American recruiting, now adding Europe, and that local recruiting was considered a waste of resources. Additionally, we have one of the worst ranked youth systems in MLS. The bulk of his commentary was on staff development, not in local talent identification or development…leading me to believe that ain’t the point of focus.
If we aren’t winning any time soon (and we aren’t, according to the intelligentsia and the eye test), it’d at least be nice to cheer for a local kid…
Did Ned bite your dog?
This was intended as a reply to RCTEyeDee
He didn't! also I'm a cat person but that's not the point.
He's just not very good at his job. His job is to build a team that should be competing for trophies. They're not doing that. They're competing for "let's get to the playoffs and see what happens" (which, it should be noted, they're also not that great at recently). And instead of getting better at competing for trophies, we get pissing matches with the best player this team has seen wear its shirt in over a decade, we get "maybe we should look at our flight schedule" as a way to explain the Timbers' perpetual slow starts, we get "but look at this atmosphere" when pressed on how good the team could be...we get everything but "we're trying to build a winning team for Timbers fans".
As Jamie notes in their comment, the current front office has decided that their priority is to make youth into professionals. That's fine. But that carries a cost, and that cost is in never being one of the elite teams in MLS; the Timbers are seemingly content with producing Local Heroes and Club Legends. I find that increasingly frustrating, because the purpose of a team is also to win the championship(s) of the league in which it plays, and the Timbers are increasingly showing, organizationally, no interest in that.
Look at how the more elite teams in this league build themselves; they don't exclusively rely on youth, even if they have good academies.
I have said before, and I'll say again: I don't think the goal is "win every year or fail". I'm not that demanding about it. But the Timbers, at this point in their MLS life, have no excuse - financially, developmentally, or support-wise - to not be at least as successful as the Sounders have been, insofar as they make the playoffs every single year and are always a threat. The fact that the Timbers don't even seem to be willing to try, despite having the bones of that in place last season before blowing it up over a dumbass fight, is endlessly frustrating to me.
I like watching individual players develop. I like individual moments of brilliance, and it's fun to see kids get better over a season or two. I just don't think that's enough, because I want the TEAM to do well overall too. I want the TEAM I have loved for decades to be in that top tier of MLS teams, to be mentioned in those preseason "who will be the best teams in the league this year" roundups.
I don't think that's too much to hope for.
The problem with the team last year was the back 5. Another year on Chara and Zuparic plus the ceiling is limited on how much better Zac or Araujo will be. It was crying out for a dominant center back that is comfortable on a high line -assuming that is how Neville wants to defend.
This iteration of the Timbers feels like mid to lower team.
Nothing about that interview made me feel like Ned is building the Timbers into being a consistently good team. He's definitely fully invested in the youth-as-project model, which, fine, I guess, but I'm not going to enjoy watching the upper tier of MLS teams separate itself even further from the Timbers while Ned celebrates how authentic the atmosphere still is at Providence Park compared to at LAFC or wherever.
I've been going to that barn since it was PGE Park. This Sunday will be the first home opener I've missed in almost 20 years (funeral, can't avoid it). I know the atmosphere is great. I love it, and I love being a part of it. But you know what? I'm tired of being sold that! I'm tired of that being the thing! I want a great team to match the great atmosphere! Why is that bad to want?
Ned, dammit, you should want to be building a strong-ass team that can actually BE in that upper echelon of teams, not just "gosh I hope we start stronger this year maybe we aren't flying on the right days we should look at that"
YOU KNOW WHAT NED MAYBE IT'S THE PLAYERS YOU'RE GETTING MAYBE THEY'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH OR MAYBE IT'S THE ONES YOU CHASED OFF OR MAYBE IT'S THAT YOU HIRED A COACH WHO ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH
Good heavens that interview just drives me crazy. Anyway, the season starts Sunday and I'm happy about that.
I'm still not confident in our centerbacks, insofar as they haven't changed and I don't know yet if the tactics will be adjusted to account for their strengths and weaknesses. I am encouraged that Ortiz and Fory at least fit the profiles of players who can contribute to defense and make some pressure off the backline, as well as by Ayala's continued growth and Mosquera's improvements. It will be ugly, but if hoofing the ball up to Kelsy helps clear it away from our backline sooner, than could help too, as long as it works and we don' immediately turn it over for a counter. Having a "10" with a willingness and ability to defend and press should help too.
I'm struck by the realization that, how many years in, we're still waiting for the Santi and Mosquera experiments to finally pan out and that it sounds like as soon as they reach some level of consistency, they'll be gone. I sure would like to enjoy a fully-formed team of players that want to be here a some point. That could be a benefit of developing local youth talent. I'm sure many of them will dream of playing internationally for a big 4 club or something but there's a lot of pride in coming up through your academy and succeeding your idols you saw in-person on Saturdays.
I like the U22 model in the sense that it focuses on bringing up players within a system rather than splashing cash on retirees. I like that the extra GAM can be spread around to balance the roster and improve depth. But damn, we really need to get those DPs and U22s right to pull it off. Evander was a success as far as his performance last year was concerned but everything else about that deal was pretty much a failure. What's our track record on other DPs?
Fanendo Adi - How many good seasons? How much silverware?
Kris Boyd - Failure
Lucas Melano - Failure
Yimmi Chara - Failure
Liam Ridgewell - Success
Sebastian Blanco - Success
Diego Valeri - Success
Diego Chara - Success (though his DP status was only temporary to amortize his transfer fee)
Felipe Mora - Success (but the status was a brief formality to skirt the salary cap)
Kenny Cooper - Failure
Brian Fernandez - Failure (Obviously, a great player, but ooof)
Did I miss anyone? That seems like about 50/50 with some asterisks that, I assert, put our actual DP success rate at more like 25%, at best. Honestly, I'm really only inclined to count Blanco and Valeri, which makes it more like 10%. Even with them, the last year or two of their contracts hurt the legacy from a player and club standpoint. That's just not good enough, even if one is more generous than my admittedly ruthless perspective.
This is to say nothing of our generally poor record with centerbacks. Even when we have good players, we misuse them. This was more bizarre when we had a former mediocre centerback for a GM. It's too soon to say about the U22 initiative but it would be interesting to see some analysis of how well we've spent our TAM/GAM. In all cases, how well have players done after their left the club? How many draftees have we developed (setting aside how us picking them and securing their rights holds their careers hostage and might ultimately tank them)?
The club is right to celebrate how many players continue to be involved in the club and the community after their careers, though the club roles seem very temporary and the community seems to be as much or more about the city, climate, culture, etc. than any devotion to the FO. We also have a more recent trend of players not wanting to be here to begin with and wanting to leave at every opportunity, as well as questionable handling of player injuries.
Advancing to MLS Cup three times isn't anything to scoff at, to be sure, even if we lost twice more ignominiously than Seattle has won. But I still expect a higher floor, more consistency, and more top-tier achievements. We can and should do better. I'd like to hear more ambition, fewer excuses, and zero self-congratulatory gaslighting.
"But I still expect a higher floor, more consistency"
This is EXACTLY it for me. The floor needs to be higher. Much higher. There's no reason it can't be. The top-tier achievements will flow from that. I know Timbers fans hate when I say this, but just look up I-5 for a great example of how that works. Seattle has it dialed in - they make the playoffs every. single. season (except one), and it generally leads to good things, even if it doesn't lead to a trophy. It's a self-perpetuating cycle; good players come to good teams, which have good systems, which produce good players, which leads to more good players wanting to play at the good club.
"I'd like to hear more ambition, fewer excuses, and zero self-congratulatory gaslighting."
The fact that this club is holding a celebratory night for the 10th anniversary of their lone MLS Cup win is...oof. I mean, I was there that weekend, and it remains the single greatest live sporting event I have ever been to (and I was at most of the 1995 Mariners playoff games, which were also pretty fkin amazing). But, it was 10 years ago, and it's their only championship (you can miss me with MLS Is Back, please, it's good but...not really), and to celebrate it? Very Uncle Rico "I can still throw this football over that mountain" vibes.
I guess I just don't understand why the team feels like they don't need to push to be in that upper tier of MLS. This club could be a crown jewel of MLS if it wanted to be, but Hank and his dipshit son don't seem to care any more, and that's the tragic part of the whole thing.
I believe that Merritt Paulson cares. He’s just incompetent and can’t help hiring people based on his ego rather than their abilities. Small wonder that someone born with a silver spoon in his mouth would make, for lack of a better term, reverse DEI hires. The good ol’ boy network runs strong.
And I totally forgot about MLS is Back. I know Seattle had advantages when it came to USOC but I envy their trophy case and how their FO handles a lot of business.
"I believe that Merritt Paulson cares. He’s just incompetent"
yeah, that's probably more true than anything.