I’m amazed by the ability of some folks to find the dark cloud behind the silver lining. But I must recognize they know much more about soccer than I do, and apparently more than the professionals who manage/coach the team as their full time jobs and get paid for it. Many of these experts were ready to run Bravo out of town on a rail after his first few games, determined we over paid for Evander who was over rated, and pointed out all the reasons why the Rodriguez signing was a mistake just a couple months back. It appears to me that the FO maybe, just maybe, knew what it was doing, but then again, as I admitted above, others know more about the beautiful game than I. Are there better coaches out there than Neville? Probably. Were they available to the Timbers?
I, for one, will don my rose colored glasses and enjoy the ride of the past six game (2.2 points/game, not bad) hope that it continues and trust the professionals to bring in and develop players like those currently sporting Timbers green.
“But I must recognize they know much more about soccer than I do,”
False premise.
Some are case studies in “confirmation bias” - they make stuff up and try to convince themself and others that’s correct. For example: Neville was a bad choice. Some won’t let go.
Wild thought here; maybe Neville is not an awful coach after all. Team is paying really well. And, Timbers matches are certainly a lot more entertaining to watch than in years past. Hopefully, Timbers can continue to build up off this performance and make an impactful signing during upcoming transfer window.
I think the verdict is still out on Phil. I think that the team's performance after the Copa will be very telling in that regard. That said, this is a very entertaining team to watch, and credit has to go to Phil in pushing a very attack-heavy gameplan. It might not be champagne football, but it certainly tastes better than the ditch-water we had last year.
I think given the state of the roster, particularly on the defensive side, the performances are as good as they can be. This offense is SO FUN, and having an even half-decent defense to support it has started making a world of difference.
If Neville can have them sustain the style they're playing in these last six matches, and not revert to the style/results of the 9 matches before that, over the whole season, I'll definitely believe Neville's not the problem (while still believing he shouldn't have been hired in the first place). They are playing a lot better recently, for sure, and they're fun to watch now, but a big part of me still doesn't quite trust it, because of everything that came before it. The roster still needs work, but I like this lineup a lot and I hope Phil resists the urge to mess with it.
As I've said a million times, I want to be proven wrong over an entire season, because I like it when the Timbers win, and last night was the most comfortable I've seen them play probably all season. I hope that continues.
Whoa, dude, gotta learn to let go! What’s up with you promptly replying when someone posts a point of view that’s opposite to yours? And with such extensive commentary just to prove the other person wrong. So, you and and I disagree on Neville, Evander, etc. That’s OK. Let go!
I happened to be in the comments when you commented, so I thought I'd reply to you. And in case you didn't actually read my comment, and judging by your reply, you mostly didn't, I actually pretty much agreed with you!
You can tell that by such telltale phrases I used like "they're fun to watch now" and "I like this lineup a lot" and "I want to be proven wrong" and "they are playing a lot better recently". That should tell you that I agree that they're better now!
It's possible that I still think Phil was a bad choice as a manager overall, and also that I can be happy with how they're playing currently despite that (and that I can credit Phil for them playing better). It's possible that you and I can disagree on things and still be civil to each other here. That's OK!
So, just so I understand the rules you're setting down in our interactions, I'm apparently:
- Not allowed to disagree with you
- Not allowed to agree with you
- Not allowed to actually have a conversation with you in an attempt to find some common ground, which I think we have more of than you seem to think
- Not allowed to comment too quickly on what you say
- Not allowed to try to be civil or expect civility in return
Did I get them all? I sure hope so, because it's getting really confusing trying to keep up! I like talking about the Timbers, and I like talking with people here - including you - about the Timbers. If I'm not your cup of tea, I'm sorry, but nobody's forcing you to engage with me. Feel free to ignore me from here on out if my posts irritate you that much. That's not my goal, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not changing who I am or how I feel, or what I say or how. Nor do I expect anyone to do the same for me.
Hard to know if this team is actually good or if this run of form is more due to playing really terrible teams. Probably a bit of both, much like how our early form was a combination of this team being bad and playing really good teams. But the lineup is more settled, Ayala finally secured a starting position and our entire buildup goes through him. Like it’s crazy, everyone looks to get Ayala the ball as much as possible, even Chara. Speaking of, Chara was awesome, somehow he’s getting better as the season goes on. So is Moreno, who had his best game of the season. That’s the level I expect from him and the level I think he can be at consistently. It’s nothing new, but McGraw is such a beast in the air, he just ate up every Vancouver long ball and cross.
Do I wish we ramped up the energy when we went up a man and scored one or two more? Yeah, absolutely, it wasn’t fun seeing the team play worse up a man, because Vancouver had a few half chances that they definitely could’ve scored on. But to be fair, if Evander didn’t have a few rough touches in the final third, we probably do get those goals. He was just a step off in the critical moments, which we’re not used to seeing. And yet, he still gets an assist. This attack is amazing - Mora, Evander, and Rodriguez all with 8+ goals? That’s awesome. Hell of a trifecta. This team still struggles a bit in possession (that happens when it’s so reliant on one player), but once they do break the lines and get the ball to one of our DPs, you just feel like we’re going to score. It’s fun stuff.
Will be interesting to see how this team does when we play some better teams, but I’m enjoying this undeniably really good run of form right now
I honestly don't think they really played significantly worse in the second half? They were in control the entire half, the defense never looked tested, and not once during that half did I ever think the Caps were even remotely looked consistently threatening, even with those half chances. Sure, they didn't turn the screw and put the Caps to the sword, but I'm actually OK with that given how little threat was posed overall.
That was the most relaxed I've been with the Timbers in the lead all season, and I know part of it was that they were up a man, but still, it's been a while since I've felt that good about a lead in-game, and it was very refreshing.
I mean we weren’t bad at all and Vancouver never had any clear cut chances for sure, but it was just odd to see us play worse up a man. When you’re at home up a man, I’d like to see us grab hold control of the game a bit more, even if that means possessing a bit more. Maybe it was also contributed to by Ayala coming off and Paredes coming on around the same time. Long story short I’d like to see us play better up a man, not worse. But at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter, as you said it felt pretty fine the entire time, it’s just a nitpick
I don't remember Paredes playing badly?! I don't think he ever lost the ball. The guy who was faltering badly was Chara, who had two really bad giveaways deep in the back third.
He wasn’t bad, but we had much less control in midfield with him on and Ayala off. He’s just not a player to get on the ball and cycle possession and progress play like Ayala does so well. It’s less about Paredes and more about how crucial Ayala is for this team now.
I thought Chara had an awesome game, it’s been a continuation of a really good streak of games he’s had along with the team. Maybe I don’t remember those giveaways. He looks fresh and energetic, it’s been great to watch
It was a good game for Paredes to work on his distribution and mind the fort. Williamson probably would have shined with a man advantage, but he is not offering what Paredes can in tougher games - defense, especially when we are protecting a lead.
I think they're definitely good. The three DPs are match winners, and one of them is playing like an MVP, Ayala has been excellent and the D has been good to the point that some guys who want to start will have to sit. Like you said, it will be interesting to see them against RSL and LA, and see where they have advantages and disadvantages.
Oh and also, this is a fun little game I played when I got home from the game last night. It won't format great here because Substack doesn't really do formatting in comments, but:
Player A is 2017 MLS MVP Diego Valeri. Player B is 2024 Evander. Valeri had 21 goals that season; Evander's on pace for 20. Remember when people didn't think Evander was worth the money? OH WAIT PEOPLE SEEM TO STILL THINK THAT can you imagine
It was interesting to watch the Timbers defensive strategy last night. They dropped a midfielder onto the defensive line for most of the match, deeper than usual, and not only did this help with defense, as others have noted, they also used that player as the main player to move the ball out of defense. Usually it was Ayala, sometimes Chará, even Evander (!) at one point, and later Paredes. I think it was mainly done to stop the ridiculous breakaways we gave up in San Jose, but it did help with offensive possession as well and definitely kept the defensive shape better and Vancouver never figured out a way through it last night.
That's how the 4-2-3-1 is designed. When Luciano Spaletti brought it to popularity in the 2000's, it was designed around a regista and overlapping wing attacks. It drives me mad when I don't see that midfield coverage; without it you just have a 4-2-4 waiting to get torched on the counter.
When was the last time the Timbers scored two goals in the first half? The opening game against COL?
I still don't fully trust it, because he will probably find a way to mess with it somehow, but Phil seems to have stumbled on a pretty effective lineup thanks to the international callups, and last night's game was another step in that lineup building confidence as a unit.
I can't really remember the last time this season that, even with a lead, I wasn't super worried about that lead going away. And once it became apparent that the malignant force that is Ted Unkel wasn't going to ruin things for the Timbers, it as just kind of a case of putting things on cruise control for most of the second half and watching Vancouver implode.
Six weeks ago, the roles of these two teams were probably the exact mirror image of last night; whether the players are listening to the coaching staff more now, whether they're just more used to the "new" training style now, or what, something seems to have clicked into place.
So I finally listened to Phil's post-game comments last night, and I disagreed with him, but in a positive way that I didn't expect. At the game Saturday night, I felt like the second half was extremely comfortable - the Timbers never felt threatened, they never felt even remotely like they were going to concede a goal, but they also played very contained, very controlled, and, for lack of a better way to put it, pretty well-maintained offensively.
Phil wanted them to be more ruthless, and I totally get that; but I was actually completely OK with the way they were playing. They were up two goals, against a team down a player for most of the half, and they were also facing the wild card of one of the worst and most unpredictable referees in MLS. Aggression might have backfired pretty hard. The Timbers saw the second half out very professionally, stayed cool, and there were no heart-in-stomach moments at all. That showed me a whole lot of growth from, say, April.
It would have been fun to crush the Caps 5-0, sure, but their game management given the game state was pretty solid, and that mentality will serve them well the rest of the season.
I felt like you initially, but I think Phil is right. You gotta be ruthless. Also, there were one or two moments of uncomfort when Chara lost the ball in bad places in the second half. He's gotta clean that up.
Yeah, the Chara of it all was a bit worrisome. He's definitely starting to show his age; he's navigating his decline phase way more gracefully than Blanco did, but it's absolutely a thing that will have to be dealt with sooner than later. I know he wants to play until he's 40, but if he continues along his current trajectory, he's also going to have to accept that if that is to be the case, his role will have to be seriously diminished. He can't be a 90 minute player and have games like that if the Timbers want to push to be a dramatically better team.
I am not a fan of nostalgia-driven roster decisions, so no matter how much I love Chara as a player (and I love him A LOT), if he can't meet the standard the Timbers want to set, that's a problem. We're not there yet, but that day is a lot closer than I think a lot of us want to contemplate.
I’m amazed by the ability of some folks to find the dark cloud behind the silver lining. But I must recognize they know much more about soccer than I do, and apparently more than the professionals who manage/coach the team as their full time jobs and get paid for it. Many of these experts were ready to run Bravo out of town on a rail after his first few games, determined we over paid for Evander who was over rated, and pointed out all the reasons why the Rodriguez signing was a mistake just a couple months back. It appears to me that the FO maybe, just maybe, knew what it was doing, but then again, as I admitted above, others know more about the beautiful game than I. Are there better coaches out there than Neville? Probably. Were they available to the Timbers?
I, for one, will don my rose colored glasses and enjoy the ride of the past six game (2.2 points/game, not bad) hope that it continues and trust the professionals to bring in and develop players like those currently sporting Timbers green.
Viva,
“But I must recognize they know much more about soccer than I do,”
False premise.
Some are case studies in “confirmation bias” - they make stuff up and try to convince themself and others that’s correct. For example: Neville was a bad choice. Some won’t let go.
Wild thought here; maybe Neville is not an awful coach after all. Team is paying really well. And, Timbers matches are certainly a lot more entertaining to watch than in years past. Hopefully, Timbers can continue to build up off this performance and make an impactful signing during upcoming transfer window.
I think the verdict is still out on Phil. I think that the team's performance after the Copa will be very telling in that regard. That said, this is a very entertaining team to watch, and credit has to go to Phil in pushing a very attack-heavy gameplan. It might not be champagne football, but it certainly tastes better than the ditch-water we had last year.
I think given the state of the roster, particularly on the defensive side, the performances are as good as they can be. This offense is SO FUN, and having an even half-decent defense to support it has started making a world of difference.
If Neville can have them sustain the style they're playing in these last six matches, and not revert to the style/results of the 9 matches before that, over the whole season, I'll definitely believe Neville's not the problem (while still believing he shouldn't have been hired in the first place). They are playing a lot better recently, for sure, and they're fun to watch now, but a big part of me still doesn't quite trust it, because of everything that came before it. The roster still needs work, but I like this lineup a lot and I hope Phil resists the urge to mess with it.
As I've said a million times, I want to be proven wrong over an entire season, because I like it when the Timbers win, and last night was the most comfortable I've seen them play probably all season. I hope that continues.
Whoa, dude, gotta learn to let go! What’s up with you promptly replying when someone posts a point of view that’s opposite to yours? And with such extensive commentary just to prove the other person wrong. So, you and and I disagree on Neville, Evander, etc. That’s OK. Let go!
I happened to be in the comments when you commented, so I thought I'd reply to you. And in case you didn't actually read my comment, and judging by your reply, you mostly didn't, I actually pretty much agreed with you!
You can tell that by such telltale phrases I used like "they're fun to watch now" and "I like this lineup a lot" and "I want to be proven wrong" and "they are playing a lot better recently". That should tell you that I agree that they're better now!
It's possible that I still think Phil was a bad choice as a manager overall, and also that I can be happy with how they're playing currently despite that (and that I can credit Phil for them playing better). It's possible that you and I can disagree on things and still be civil to each other here. That's OK!
So constantly predictable! Can’t not have the last word, can you? Cool!
So, just so I understand the rules you're setting down in our interactions, I'm apparently:
- Not allowed to disagree with you
- Not allowed to agree with you
- Not allowed to actually have a conversation with you in an attempt to find some common ground, which I think we have more of than you seem to think
- Not allowed to comment too quickly on what you say
- Not allowed to try to be civil or expect civility in return
Did I get them all? I sure hope so, because it's getting really confusing trying to keep up! I like talking about the Timbers, and I like talking with people here - including you - about the Timbers. If I'm not your cup of tea, I'm sorry, but nobody's forcing you to engage with me. Feel free to ignore me from here on out if my posts irritate you that much. That's not my goal, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not changing who I am or how I feel, or what I say or how. Nor do I expect anyone to do the same for me.
Have a great night.
Hard to know if this team is actually good or if this run of form is more due to playing really terrible teams. Probably a bit of both, much like how our early form was a combination of this team being bad and playing really good teams. But the lineup is more settled, Ayala finally secured a starting position and our entire buildup goes through him. Like it’s crazy, everyone looks to get Ayala the ball as much as possible, even Chara. Speaking of, Chara was awesome, somehow he’s getting better as the season goes on. So is Moreno, who had his best game of the season. That’s the level I expect from him and the level I think he can be at consistently. It’s nothing new, but McGraw is such a beast in the air, he just ate up every Vancouver long ball and cross.
Do I wish we ramped up the energy when we went up a man and scored one or two more? Yeah, absolutely, it wasn’t fun seeing the team play worse up a man, because Vancouver had a few half chances that they definitely could’ve scored on. But to be fair, if Evander didn’t have a few rough touches in the final third, we probably do get those goals. He was just a step off in the critical moments, which we’re not used to seeing. And yet, he still gets an assist. This attack is amazing - Mora, Evander, and Rodriguez all with 8+ goals? That’s awesome. Hell of a trifecta. This team still struggles a bit in possession (that happens when it’s so reliant on one player), but once they do break the lines and get the ball to one of our DPs, you just feel like we’re going to score. It’s fun stuff.
Will be interesting to see how this team does when we play some better teams, but I’m enjoying this undeniably really good run of form right now
I honestly don't think they really played significantly worse in the second half? They were in control the entire half, the defense never looked tested, and not once during that half did I ever think the Caps were even remotely looked consistently threatening, even with those half chances. Sure, they didn't turn the screw and put the Caps to the sword, but I'm actually OK with that given how little threat was posed overall.
That was the most relaxed I've been with the Timbers in the lead all season, and I know part of it was that they were up a man, but still, it's been a while since I've felt that good about a lead in-game, and it was very refreshing.
I mean we weren’t bad at all and Vancouver never had any clear cut chances for sure, but it was just odd to see us play worse up a man. When you’re at home up a man, I’d like to see us grab hold control of the game a bit more, even if that means possessing a bit more. Maybe it was also contributed to by Ayala coming off and Paredes coming on around the same time. Long story short I’d like to see us play better up a man, not worse. But at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter, as you said it felt pretty fine the entire time, it’s just a nitpick
I don't remember Paredes playing badly?! I don't think he ever lost the ball. The guy who was faltering badly was Chara, who had two really bad giveaways deep in the back third.
He wasn’t bad, but we had much less control in midfield with him on and Ayala off. He’s just not a player to get on the ball and cycle possession and progress play like Ayala does so well. It’s less about Paredes and more about how crucial Ayala is for this team now.
I thought Chara had an awesome game, it’s been a continuation of a really good streak of games he’s had along with the team. Maybe I don’t remember those giveaways. He looks fresh and energetic, it’s been great to watch
True about Ayala ...
It was a good game for Paredes to work on his distribution and mind the fort. Williamson probably would have shined with a man advantage, but he is not offering what Paredes can in tougher games - defense, especially when we are protecting a lead.
I think they're definitely good. The three DPs are match winners, and one of them is playing like an MVP, Ayala has been excellent and the D has been good to the point that some guys who want to start will have to sit. Like you said, it will be interesting to see them against RSL and LA, and see where they have advantages and disadvantages.
Oh and also, this is a fun little game I played when I got home from the game last night. It won't format great here because Substack doesn't really do formatting in comments, but:
Player A:
G/90: 0.67 A/90: 0.29 G+A/90: 0.96 G-PK/90: 0.48 G+A-PK: 0.77
Player B:
G/90: 0.56 A/90: 0.49 G+A/90: 1.04 G+PK/90: 0.42 G+A-PK/90: 0.90
Player A is 2017 MLS MVP Diego Valeri. Player B is 2024 Evander. Valeri had 21 goals that season; Evander's on pace for 20. Remember when people didn't think Evander was worth the money? OH WAIT PEOPLE SEEM TO STILL THINK THAT can you imagine
It was interesting to watch the Timbers defensive strategy last night. They dropped a midfielder onto the defensive line for most of the match, deeper than usual, and not only did this help with defense, as others have noted, they also used that player as the main player to move the ball out of defense. Usually it was Ayala, sometimes Chará, even Evander (!) at one point, and later Paredes. I think it was mainly done to stop the ridiculous breakaways we gave up in San Jose, but it did help with offensive possession as well and definitely kept the defensive shape better and Vancouver never figured out a way through it last night.
That's how the 4-2-3-1 is designed. When Luciano Spaletti brought it to popularity in the 2000's, it was designed around a regista and overlapping wing attacks. It drives me mad when I don't see that midfield coverage; without it you just have a 4-2-4 waiting to get torched on the counter.
When was the last time the Timbers scored two goals in the first half? The opening game against COL?
I still don't fully trust it, because he will probably find a way to mess with it somehow, but Phil seems to have stumbled on a pretty effective lineup thanks to the international callups, and last night's game was another step in that lineup building confidence as a unit.
I can't really remember the last time this season that, even with a lead, I wasn't super worried about that lead going away. And once it became apparent that the malignant force that is Ted Unkel wasn't going to ruin things for the Timbers, it as just kind of a case of putting things on cruise control for most of the second half and watching Vancouver implode.
Six weeks ago, the roles of these two teams were probably the exact mirror image of last night; whether the players are listening to the coaching staff more now, whether they're just more used to the "new" training style now, or what, something seems to have clicked into place.
When the call ups come back, Phil will have some tough decisions to make: goalkeeper, and along the backline.
So I finally listened to Phil's post-game comments last night, and I disagreed with him, but in a positive way that I didn't expect. At the game Saturday night, I felt like the second half was extremely comfortable - the Timbers never felt threatened, they never felt even remotely like they were going to concede a goal, but they also played very contained, very controlled, and, for lack of a better way to put it, pretty well-maintained offensively.
Phil wanted them to be more ruthless, and I totally get that; but I was actually completely OK with the way they were playing. They were up two goals, against a team down a player for most of the half, and they were also facing the wild card of one of the worst and most unpredictable referees in MLS. Aggression might have backfired pretty hard. The Timbers saw the second half out very professionally, stayed cool, and there were no heart-in-stomach moments at all. That showed me a whole lot of growth from, say, April.
It would have been fun to crush the Caps 5-0, sure, but their game management given the game state was pretty solid, and that mentality will serve them well the rest of the season.
I felt like you initially, but I think Phil is right. You gotta be ruthless. Also, there were one or two moments of uncomfort when Chara lost the ball in bad places in the second half. He's gotta clean that up.
Yeah, the Chara of it all was a bit worrisome. He's definitely starting to show his age; he's navigating his decline phase way more gracefully than Blanco did, but it's absolutely a thing that will have to be dealt with sooner than later. I know he wants to play until he's 40, but if he continues along his current trajectory, he's also going to have to accept that if that is to be the case, his role will have to be seriously diminished. He can't be a 90 minute player and have games like that if the Timbers want to push to be a dramatically better team.
I am not a fan of nostalgia-driven roster decisions, so no matter how much I love Chara as a player (and I love him A LOT), if he can't meet the standard the Timbers want to set, that's a problem. We're not there yet, but that day is a lot closer than I think a lot of us want to contemplate.
They are playing pretty well, Alex.
And that's the next challenge for this team; learning how to perform up to their own expectations.