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SD had one shot on goal. Let that sink in.

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Frankly, I think there's more here than Betfort-vs-D'Aquila or who's at the #9 vs who's a winger. This is the second game in a row where the Thorns had a tactical advantage and couldn't finish then let the opponent ship a crap goal on an error. Another game where the passing and movement came apart when the opponent pressed. Another game where the defense missed marks and looked disorganized.

I think the bottom line is that we're not as good as we thought we were; I think Orlando and Kansas City were that bad. Are there positional and player issues? Yes. But I think this is a systemic issue, and I hope Norris & Co. are thinking hard about them.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

I think we are as good as we think we are- It’s just that it’s not significantly better than the Reign or SD because there’s a shit ton of parity in the league. Soccer’s a finishing-based sport and the Thorns have struggled to finish in back to back games. I don’t really think that’s systemic. We still had 3x the shots, 9x shots on target, xG, and more possession on the road. The underlying numbers are excellent, the finishing just needs to be better.

Defensively, the Wave had one(!) shot on goal the entire match- we had some giveaways, but the defense was mainly fine despite starting Nally at CB. Expecting perfection isn’t reasonable.

I think what we learned is:

1. The Wave are very well organized and hard to break down- which we already knew.

2. Sam is comfortably the second most important player on the roster.

3. Nally isn’t very good.

4. The finishing needs to get better.

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If we're not "significantly better" than San Diego or Seattle? We're not as good as we thought we were after Orlando and Kansas City, because we looked like champions against them...

Houston made me wonder, and this makes me wonder more. In particular the way the Thorns kind of fell apart when San Diego pressed hard after the 55th minute or so. Suddenly the whole squad, not just Nally or Porter, was back in its heels. I don't expect perfection. I expect more composure than that, though. The five minutes leading up to the goal looked like a junior high school recess back there.

After last season we knew that teams would sit deep against Smith. If we weren't thinking about how to break them down, we weren't thinking. If soccer is a finishing-based sport and we weren't thinking how to finish if Smith wasn't finishing, we weren't thinking.

If we weren't thinking about those things we were setting ourselves up to be caught out like we were last weekend and we were tonight. More possession, more shots, more SOG, more xG means nothing if you leave yourself vulnerable to a loss from a freakish OG.

We'll see; the season is very young yet. I hope these last two games have the lights burning late in the Thorns' coaching offices, though.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

I mean yes, we're not "blow Seattle and SD out like they're Orlando" good, but I never thought that after the first two games. I'd say we are about where I thought: Probably the best team in the league overall, but not by so much that we're going to run through the league like we're Lyon in Ligue 1.

I'd say they did break SD down a number of times today- Soph could've had two, Betfort missed a sitter of a header, Sinc just misplayed a one-time pass into Soph that would've set her through, Hina should have done better on her chance, and there were a few close misses on driven crosses. They thoroughly dominated Houston on Friday. It's hard for me to look at this as anything more than a finishing/last ball issue.

Games ebb and flow- There's going to be times when game state changes based on increased pressure by the opponent. Do I wish they could play out of pressure a little more confidently at times? Sure- I also don't think they fell apart tonight. They had a shaky 10 minutes and then recovered pretty well.

Ultimately, it's hard for me to be too concerned about a team that's been the better team in every game they've played early in a season with a new coach, and MUCH the better team in three of them. There's certainly things to work on (we're four games in!) but I don't think there's anything major that needs addressing. If the underlying numbers start getting worse or they start shipping goals I'll be a little more concerned there are more ingrained issues.

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You're more optimistic that I am, that's a given. But I'm less optimistic because I discount the first two games entirely. The ability to club baby seals does nothing to test your ability as a hunter.

The Thorns were better than Houston for about 75 minutes, but obviously didn't dominate them given that domination implies goals. Orlando, KC? Those were dominated. Against Houston? The better of the two...but the lack of finishing meant not enough to get the results. Tonight? Same; the better for about an hour, then the roof came off.

So in the two games that WERE competitive the Thorns took 39 shots, put 14 on goal, and scored once, 1 point from 6 on offer.

I agree; it's early days yet. But after a blazing hot start I think this team has come back to Earth with a thud. We'll see if they can resume their fiery ways against Racing.

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Honestly, I don't even think we're "*beat* Puget Sound WoSo Team" good. They're that good.

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I think we're at a pretty even level with Seattle. I certainly wouldn't put money on an outcome one way or the other.

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Yeah, don’t do that…we haven’t beat them since like 2019? :(

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Hannah, what is it you'd say you do here?

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Seriously, I don’t understand how he goes from Soph to Betfort. It’s about as large of a drop off as you can get in all of the NWSL. The experiment is over, let a striker play striker (D’Aquila.) Hannah was a CB and it kinda shows…at least teach her how to haphazardly play a winger so our backup striker can build her minutes in her best position. Hannah is super fast. Maybe she can bulldoze her way down the wings lol. But, we can’t take Soph off and expect any goals beyond that when Hannah is our target player. She’s been here like three years now (?) and I don’t understand why! The bar needs to be higher a bit. This is, of course, beyond our finishing issues. But, if you put better, more capable players playing together it lifts all boats…

I look at OL Reign’s roster, and they don’t have a Betfort, a Porter, a Beckman, or a Provenzano on their roster. Maybe a Nally, but I’m not so sure. Their depth is solid everywhere. Their rookies don’t look like rookies, or if they do, Laura Harvey doesn’t play them at all.

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Anyone else's stream frozen?

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

If that's D'Aquila on the end of the cross it's a goal. Just no excuse for playing her out of position to let Betfort play centrally.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Said the same!! I was like AGGH that would’ve been a D’Aquila goal!!

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Ah, Nally at LB! Mike has seen my nightmares!

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Lmao Betfort vs. Girma is an all-time mismatch

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Just wondering where tf is D'Aquila? Are we really running out with Betfort as a sub first?! Like, WHY.

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That's it for me. My interest in this thing was minimal to begin with, and I've got a good book.

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Reminds me of Kevin Nealon bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCeSoiNh0Z4

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Um where is D'Aquila?

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Hustle back pls Menges

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Dunno. Menges hasn't been "Menges" - the 2017 USWNT-discussed Menges - since 2018. She's better than Nally, yes. But also increasingly fragile, and she's lost more than a step.

Plus this was a comprehensive team fail. Couldn't finish, then reacted poorly when SDW started to press high.

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She could be 50% of 2017 Menges and still be better than Nally, unfortunately.

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Which leads to the suspicion that she's NOT 50% fit. If we can't defend without a single centerback we might just as well go to Kitchen Kaboodle and buy a wooden spoon...

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Nally, what were you thinking?

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Well, there you go. Don't finish your chances and ship a shitty OG.

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Impressed with Reyes and Leon- They're both absolute tanks. Reyna looks 10x more comfortable on the left than the right.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Yeah, I’m not sold but she looks way more confident on the left side. She made some good runs, but only to give the ball away. Still good to see her get these CC minutes. She had a few nice saves and also some nice balls into the box. Worried about Kuikka playing a full 90 tonight. We could use another experienced fullback (Nally is not one!) and a winger. We have about 4-5 roster spots that should be trimmed for better depth imo.

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I agree on Reyes. She definitely looks more comfortable. I’m still mixed on her. She made a number of good runs just to give the ball the ball away with a bad pass at the end. She had some good moments too. A real good ball in or two. Definitely an improvement from the last game

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Man, this is getting ugly.

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Hanging by a thread

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This team does not respond well to a tight press. It's the slow pace and all the fiddly little touches. We don't do "one-touch soccer".

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023Author

They can, but for some reason the simple quick touches are not the first instinct. It's been not pretty to say the least.

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They can the way a rhino can run fast. You know it's possible, it's just really rare to see.

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SDW starting to press high and it's working; we're looking rushed and losing composure...

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Can't be offside there Hannah cmon now

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author

Any surprise that Hannah over Izzy subbing in for Sophia?

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Yes, can we ask coach WHY Izzy’s minutes have been a drip AND she’s playing out of position? If we wanna score without Soph we’re gonna have to let the actual strikers play in their position. Hannah is not a striker, not now, not ever. Job number one of a striker is to score goals…you don’t make it out of AYSO as a striker if you can’t score, let alone at the pro level. What are we doing here?

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Yes! Absolutely

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I was just saying I’m surprised they didn’t bring Izzy on

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I think we all are at this point

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Yeahno. Norris has "Betfort-for-Smith" baked in for some reason.

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More irritated than surprised. Izzy's been consistently on the right so far this year.

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Agreed, I think you play the better player at her natural position.

Izzy is a monster at the 9, my hope is that they have thoughts on starting Izzy for the first half against RL.

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Betfort for Smith at 45'

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author

Thoughts on that?

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No like. Hannah is a good troop and I'll never slag off on a player who works hard, but she's just not that skilled. Worth trying D'Aquila there, IMO.

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author

Izzy's preseason and training has been almost dominant. Unless he's starting her first half of RL, doesn't make sense to me?

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I was unimpressed last weekend, but in general I think D'Aquila's ceiling is already higher that Betfort's. We'll see if D'Aquila shows up late here or starts against Racing; that would seem sensible if 1) D'Aquila is higherup the depth chart and 2) the league match is more important than this...

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I'd bet she comes on for Hina shortly- I wonder if Norris thinks that Betfort can't play wing and Izzy's getting played out of position because she can. Like you said, you don't play the better player out of position to accommodate a worse player imo.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Another half where the Thorns pretty much had their boot on their opponents' necks and couldn't finish them because they couldn't finish.

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author
Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023Author

This is what I was worried about. We dominant and still can't score. San Diego doesn't allow for as many chances either so gotta take them while you have them.

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Like the Houston game; lots of shots, few on goal (8/3).

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

I'd guess Soph's either done a HT (hopefully) or soon after, and Morgan probably comes on at some point. Needed that first half goal.

(she's done at HT. Why Betfort over D'Aquila? Who can say!)

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Yep. My guess is that the field will flip in the second half as our starters come off (I hope...)

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Soph's gotta get better at those through-balls. She consistently overhits them by a step or two.

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Jeez! Leon was wide open there Soph

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SDW finally showing some life!

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Have yourself a night, Shelby.

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She’s so good, wish Shelby got to play more!

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A lot of Leon/Soph positional interchange so far in this one

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That’s nice Hubly!!

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Loving Leon's energy.

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Should have had the opener there - GREAT buildup (one touch passes! Who knew?) but Smith biffs over the bar from eight yards...

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Tougher chance than it looked tbf- She kinda had to hook her foot around the defender.

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Not gonna argue. But that's what strikers do - they score off tough chances.

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Yep, for all the goals she does score, she should probably score 20% more lol

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*ducks*

Is it bad that I feel sligghtly better with Hogan in goal than I do with Bella?

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Snapshot vs. feature film. That said I think Hogan has been excellent each of her scant appearances. Ice Bear abides.

Also, PTFC has the best away jersey ever.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Why? No, seriously, what do you see as the difference? Especially given that Hogan hasn't really been tested yet.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Hogan's hands are mucch better imo- Bella probably a better pure shot stopper, but I'm much more confident on set pieces and crosses with Hogan.

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I think you're being over- hard on Bixby. Her overall xGa/GA suggests that she's not giving up chances in the air. She LOOKS gawky, yes., I agree. But I seldom have to give her minuses for poor control of her penalty area and I'm hypercritical of keepers (e.g. I gave her a BIG minus for the 80th minute fumble against Houston...)

Both are "Angerer"-style goalkeepers, meaning usually safe hands, good reaction-save and shot-stopping keepers, and Bixby (at least - I haven't seen enough of Hogan to judge her) shares Angerer's issues with knowing when to come off her line and when to stay on. I think that is why Bixby looks so awkward on lofted balls. But in practice? She does fine.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

I probably am being a tad harsh (Bella's great!), but I'm not sure if xGA/xG really capture aerial uncertainty because it's not always a dropped cross- It's instances like the FK against KC where she misjudges the flight, or comes late causing a scuffed punch or something.

Very nitpick-y I admit, but it does seems like Hogan is more confident aerially, which I personally value highly.

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A keeper who scuffs punches or misses crosses will ship goals unless their defense is a monster, and we haven't had that defense since 2017, so if she was that poor in the air we'd see it in her stats.

Hogan is a Franch-like musclehead instead of a beanpole like Bixby, so she kind of HAS to be all big muscle-y moves in the air. But, frankly, that's just eye candy; I'm not sure if we saw her over a whole season that we'd see a huge actual difference in their dealing with high crosses. She LOOKS better, I agree.

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I think it's too early to make that assessment for myself, but I do think Hogan has good hands and quick reflexes.

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It’s also her demeanor- she alwayyys looks totally unflappable dating back to her PK shout-out she won for us. I love a stoic keeper lol

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A.D. Franch is as cool as ice and hard as nails. And shipped four in Chicago. It's not about attitude.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Confidence and demeanor is *absolutely* a huge part of being a good goalkeeper- Ask any goalkeeping coach out there. It's far from the only thing, but it's certainly a major component.

AD's also been a top level keeper for a decade plus fwiw- A couple bad games doesn't change that!

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This has been a very "Taylor Porter is not Sam Coffey" start to the game

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Kinda hard to tell given that SDW has been so ragged.

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Yeahhh but they are consistently pressing Porter and she's made a few bad decisions / sloppy passes already.

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Frankly, I'm seeing a lot of slop from lots of people in white.

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Just said the same thing....the drop off is LARGE. We could def use a better sub for the 6. The midfield just gets messy without Sam.

Also, Leon's first touch has been pretty rough.

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Leon is energy, not a finisher. She has 23 goals in 143 club matches, all leagues, since 2010. She does have 28 goals in 96 international caps. More to the point, she has 10 goals in 83 NWSL regular season matches. She's not a scorer, and we really shouldn't expect her to be one.

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I didn’t say anything about her shots or goals…her first touch was just pretty bad. She lost the ball multiple times because of it. She hasn’t played a game since January, though…I expect that to improve a lot as she gets more time.

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What I mean is this: if you've got a shite first touch, you're not going to be a finisher, you're not going to be a scorer.

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Just once I'd like to see a full sequence where the Thorns one-touch pass through the opposition. Just once, so I can see us do it. Then we can go back to dink-dink-boot.

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Did this mfer just call Sheridan the best goalkeeper in the world?

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Probably meant "the best at coughing up bad giveaways..."

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

Kinda disappointed to see so many starters honestly. We need D'Aquila and the others to be getting more minutes before they are tasked with carrying the team over the break...hoping we only have 45 mins of this group. Don't need to risk fatigue and injury here. All of SD's starting F's are sitting, but I bet they come on just as our starters are coming off. Hoping we can score several goals before that happens! (Also, Captain Po?!) Ready for the chaos cup!

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Agreed -- I wanted to see a full field of the second stringers. The only way this odd concurrent Challenge Cup format makes any sense is if it's used to give all the backups legit minutes to prepare for the WC window and improve generally. Starters should be resting up for the games that matter (i.e. regular season).

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Apr 20, 2023·edited Apr 20, 2023

I think most of us would have -- and it is a largely rotated side, tbf-- but this signals that the Thorns want to win this and aren’t gonna treat it like a joke....which is honestly fine with me. This team is good enough that they should try to win everything they can.

My only real concern is Soph- As long as she gets no more than 60 minutes (and I’d be surprised if she does get more than that) I’ll be alright.

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https://twitter.com/sandiegowavefc/status/1648857524064624641?s=20

Get some first half goals and get Soph and Hina out at half pls.

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https://twitter.com/ThornsFC/status/1648854456166125568?s=20

Soph, Hina, Kling, Sinc, Hubly, and Kuikka all start. Leon debuts. Hope to see D'Aquila at half.

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