RAJ Sports announced that Karina LeBlanc will transition out of her role as Thorns General Manager following the 2024 NWSL season. They will begin the search for a replacement immediately.
I'd like to thank Phouc and the rest of the STF team for sticking their necks out and being willing to be critical of the organization. I honestly don't think this would have happened at least before the end of the season without the local media's willingness to be brave.
Thanks y'all for doing what you do, you have a community behind you! This is the pressure and hard work that begins to create change...not just the change we as fans crave, but the change the players here deserve.
It was all of us - Phuoc, PDXElls, Chief, ABell4, everybody on STF, everybody on social media, everybody who used the Annual Member renewal window to write in and voice their concerns.
We did it!
Thank god!
Now I can renew my Annual Membership in good conscience.
Kind of sad that the fans and writers are the ones to tell the owners what is plainly obvious.
If I were buying a sports franchise (doesn't matter which one), first think I would do is hire an outside consultant to evaluate the job everyone in the front office is doing. I wouldn't take long for an independent analysis of KK to come back with an abysmal grade.
I must say I am surprised this actually happened. Surely there will be a truly global search for a GM, who can then clean house as needed. If that search ends up with Mike Norris, I will lose all faith and hope..
My guess would be the Bhathals have no special Canadian allegiance. I think our maple leaf tinted hiring glasses were all KK with maybe a touch of Sincy.
LeBlanc needs to be kept away from ANY role in personnel; HR, hiring, firing, anything. Her doxxing the players who protested the Menges-Wilkinson affair tells me she has no concept of integrity when dealing with people. The reddit stuff just reinforced that.
T-shirt cannon? Fine! Hawking RAJ merch on HSN? Okay! But any other role that gives her input on hiring/firing/staffing? Not just no but fuuuuuck no.
You keep saying that. Is there any evidence that it’s true? I mean, has anyone from RAJ actually said as much; no, LeBlanc isn’t going to be Women’s Sports Director?
Funny. The Riveter guy had the same comment about Karina firing t-shirts. He also voiced some very serious other concerns as long as she is involved, especially if her input is sought for the new GM.
No matter how these last two home matches go, Sinclair deserves not to have pissed off fans booing because of the state of the team. Knowing that change is coming fully allows for a good vibe for the last two home matches of 2024.
Oh 100%, I'm over here celebrating like we just won the shield even though we're prob about to get smashed by Orlando lol, and maybe won't even make playoffs.
So long as we can keep the core we have and change was made before even more major damage could be done, we should be able to turn things around with some competent roster building and a competent coach. After all the mistakes that have been made, you'd think they'd get some real advice about hires this time...Anytime you have Soph, Hina, Sam, Marie, Weaver, and even Isa as a young core, you should be able to build a real strong team. Those are about the only starters I see on this team though. Hopefully none of them have been really scared away and will be encouraged by this news. But yeah, there needs to be some real work on the roster this offseason, so I hope hey can get the GM hired quickly.
Most of us put a lot of time and emotional investment into the Thorns so it's certainly reasonable for some pretty sincere celebrations- I know I've personally been pretty bummed for the last few weeks in particular. It's a big deal that the owners acted! Will it save us from losing the Sophs, Obazes and Müllers of the world before next season? Maybe, maybe not, but there was also an even darker version of the timeline where this was our life for the foreseeable future, and the opportunity to bring in an external hire that knows what they're doing is very much here.
And yes! As you say: We have a core! Even if Soph does leave, there's a lot of talent and they still seem to like each other! Get a GM that knows talent and a coach that can coach and it *could* get better pretty quickly.
I too, could easily imagine what you call "an even darker version of the timeline," and not just because I've been a "Community" fanatic for fifteen years.
Although, given today's Thorns news, I did stash my black felt goatee in its hiding place.
I truly hope Thorns fans would never boo their own players. However poorly they're playing - and they have been playing very poorly - no one deserves that kind of treatment.
While I won't say that nobody deserves to be booed, I can't recall a time where a Thorns player did deserve to be booed, which I reserve for a bad attitude and/or persistent lack of effort. One reason I like WoSo so much is that there are so many players who are so likable. Even when at times they would be justified to have a bad attitude and/or not put forth a good effort, they generally suck it up. In Sinc's case, it's not her fault that the coach keeps playing her too much when it's clear she is pretty well cooked. I think Thorns fans are smart enough to know this.
Also gonna be interesting to see what kind of impact this has on the players thought process this offseason. I don't think this is a blanket solve to the nasty vibes even if it's a big, big step in the right direction. I'd hope this makes it less likely that the key players ask out --which I think was getting increasingly likely-- but this is only step one of many and, in some ways, could make a full Pride-style rebuild even more likely if the new GM wants to shape the team in their image. With that said: This is the first time we're (knock on wood) going to have a non-internal GM hire literally EVER. That's cause for excitement.
(I will also say that I generally don't like when players have Lebron-style outsize impact / communicate with owners but let's just say that I wouldn't be *mad* if Soph had a direct line, for instance)
No, you're absolutely right. Some players might already have one foot and part of another out the door. And today's news is the just the first step (that we know of) in what needs to happen.
A couple of thoughts on Phuoc;'s new opinion piece:
(1) Parsons might not want to be GM. He might not be ready to be done with coaching.
(2) We might, or might not, need a President for Soccer Ops and a GM. If it turns out that we need both, they should be separate roles.
(3) Who's to say he'd be better at identifying a coach who can take us to the top than he himself is/was as a coach?
(4) Assuming both Sinc and Kling hang it up, Hubly -- if she returns -- would be the only person who has been with the club since 2017.
I do wonder whether it's time for the organization to make a full move into the future.
That said, the man knows and loves the area and the team, and he's definitely got connections, an eye for talent, and fire in the belly. We could certainly do worse.
I would like the team to move in a different direction, but think that Parsons would be a good choice. I go back to his ability to either identify talent or coach up players to become solid NWSL players. If it was the former, it bodes well for him as a GM. If it was the latter, blended in with the former GMs ability to identify talent we could be in a rough spot with the hire.
I don't doubt that Parsons would be a nice PR move and could be a good soccer move. I'm just hopeful we can move forward and not simply recycle players and staff from the past.
I think Mike Smith has done a nice job of identifying and recruiting internationals. Muller is definitely a hit, and Obaze looks like she will be one. You have to have good networks and relations with agents, and those are working in Mike's favor.
So, part of what I am trying to say here is that the Thorns organization will have to be clear about *what is it that a President of Soccer Ops and a GM need to be able to do, and do well.*
And, again, I don't assume that should be one person holding both jobs, or that you actually need both jobs. You can have a President for the whole enchilada - Soccer and Biz - and a GM who reports to the President.
As long as this isn't just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic it's a good move. As said before, it all depends on the next hire. This team is at an inflection point with two bad coaching hires and a bad GM hire all in a row. What they do next really matters.
I am really quite surprised this happened/was announced now instead of post-season, but I hope this allays some of the fears about the Bhathals being absentee owners. Obviously, they still need to get the next hire right, but that's kinda how pro sports works! Not going to pretend I wasn't worried that they wouldn't act, but this is kinda what I said this summer: They let KK do her job as she saw fit, and now she's suffering the consequences (although, those consequences are pretty light in this case).
(and presumably, new GM means new coach and technical staff too)
It's interesting, they clearly still have a good relationship with KK or they wouldn't be hiring her to be part of BOTH franchises.....but they also saw that change was needed and acted.
Well, it's like the Norris situation but bigger. Good person, well liked in many circles. Karina has real value in the city and community, and I'm sure Lisa and Karina have a good relationship. It's just that sometimes people are not right for the role they're in.
I think that's true to an extent, but it's also becoming increasingly clear that her interpersonal skills are not exactly a major strength either given it seems she rubs a number of players and staff the wrong way.
So yeah, she's certainly not the devil, she has done some good stuff as an ambassador, and I'm sure some of her deficiencies are slightly exaggerated around here.....but it's difficult to see exactly what her value is either and what she offers from a discrete skillset standpoint. But hey, at least she's not Jill Ellis!
When you are doing a negotiation, the happy person who struggles to read signals is one of the worst people to negotiate with in terms of coming to a conclusion. She also doesn’t seem to be someone who completes items in a timely manner.
Happy she was let go. Now her primary mistake needs to be let go as well.
Why? Angerer’s work with the keepers after Franch was a study in diminishing returns. Eckerstrom was fine, but Bixby is (as we’ve seen) troubled with what look like solveable technical and tactical failings.
I think Angerer quit for perfectly good reasons; she was no longer turning out outstanding keepers. She was getting stale. It was time to try something and somewhere else.
Agreed. It could also be nothing more than a face-saving negotiated settlement. Which ain't nothing, by the way. But, as you heard on Saturday night, Karina is still liked. I mean, yeah, she had Emma Hayes and her kid with her as she circled the pitch, but fans could have just remained quiet and not waved their scarves.
Sure, but also 80% of people at those games have no real interest in or knowledge of the negative side of her impact on the club. Which is fine! Sometimes I wish I could fan like that! But it's also a good reminder that most Thorns fans see the team as a fun weekend outing and not a whole lot more.
Here's a hot take: the shutdown of the NCAA draft is a factor in the LeBlanc move. Without a draft, the GM (and team) has to locate all the potential talent since they aren't rounding themselves up now. Then the GM (and team) have to contact all those people individually, many of whom may not have agents, and try to convince them to be Thorns. Then the GM has to get them all signed, at least provisionally. All within three months and while also doing free-agent business and the holidays. That sounds like a LOT of work. Constant, detail-focused, frustrating work. That is not what LeBlanc signed up for, and seemingly is not her strength.
Just put the exact same sentiment in the other thread- I'm not sure if the Bhathals are that in touch with the soccer world to where that was a major factor, but it's certainly a benefit to not waiting until the end of the season like I thought they would. Looking forward to potential candidates, it would be of benefit to hire someone with experience in the American soccer ecosystem to rival Vlatko and Krikorian's influence with the youth.
(And, while I'm not necessarily in favor of Kilgore in general, that would be an undeniable pro if we're talking coaching too)
As I've said from literally day 1, they were always going to give her a year to prove herself. They did that, she didn't prove herself (or proved herself incapable), and got canned.
Outside the Gale hiring --which she ultimately got fired for-- she doesn't have a ton of discreet "fireable offenses," at least on the soccer side. It's just that she generally wasn't very good at her job! She doesn't have extensive relationships with players and agents, clearly rubs people the wrong way, and is totally inexperienced.
Ummm...the Nasello draft pick and the Kuikka debacle on the soccer side alone. Then there were lots of other poor soccer decisions that all add up to a fireable offense. And yes, you need to include the non-soccer side, which includes doxxing players during the Wilkinson debacle.
Setting hard and fast rules like "giving her a year" is just plain stupid. How much damage has she done when it was clear she was in over her head, not to mention untrustworthy and unlikable?
I don't think either of those are fireable on their own but yeah, the mistakes accumulated. That's why she's not here anymore.
And yeah, you don't need to tell me- I would have preferred they cleaned things out right away too. But they didn't, and I understand why, as new sports owners, they did it they way they did. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it.
If they couldn't figure it out themselves, then they should have hired an independent consultant from day 1 to analyze the job she had done up to that point and beyond. This dragged out way too long and their investment was damaged because of it. If nothing else, just ask around and I'm sure it would become pretty clear very quickly. I don't understand not protecting their investment with simple due diligence.
I think you're giving them too much of a pass here. Hopefully they will do their due diligence in hiring a new GM and whatever other positions they are hiring. They are essentially in the same position as before except they actually need to do something quickly and get it right without the benefit of fan outrage/ticket boycott to guide them. The delay in canning KK means they have more to overcome in a shorter amount of time.
I’ve got the same issue with the enthusiasm for Parsons, BTW. His and Gavin’s roster-building success was in NWSL1.0. I’m not convinced he’d be the slam-dunk success a lot of folks want him to be. Maybe? Worth a try? Sure! But the new Free Agent Era will be very different…
Well! If nothing else this sounds like a healthy way to move her out of a role that doesn’t seem to be working, while still keeping her close and without the stress and humiliation of outright canning her. I wish her all the best, and am very glad to be moving the club forward, hopefully with an actual global talent search
As some here know I've been following/reporting on the Timbers closely for 24 years, the Thorns for 13 years, as well as other teams like the Portland Rain, but I've never seen the kind of fiasco the GM/coaching chaos has become. Admittedly I don't really know the more recent GMs and coaches personally the way I did years ago, but it really makes me wonder what the heck has been going on the last few years. Have the priorities changed so much that success of the team on the field and stability of the franchises is far down the list?
I really hope they snap out of their recent trend of confusing decisions and shock us all with some moves we can really get behind. I still believe in these teams and want to feel that enthusiasm that I once did.
1. Riley scandal breaks in 2020. Wilkinson fired as a result.
2. Paulson, under pressure, throws Leblanc -- very popular at the time-- in front of him as a human shield as GM in November 2021. Leblanc has no experience whatsoever.
3. Paulson is put under pressure to sell the Thorns in 2021-22 and finally announces his intention to sell in 2022.
4. From the time LeBlanc is hired through January 2024, the Thorns bring in ONLY Janine Beckie, Adriana Leon on loan, and a series of rookies as new signings; most likely because Paulson shut the tap off as soon as he knew he'd lost his stake in the Thorns. Meanwhile, Gotham, Orlando, Washington, and Kansas City get ambitious, and Angel City and San Diego come into the league in desirable markets.
5. After winning a championship in 2022, Norris is promoted by Leblanc and is never actually given the interim tag. This is important because it's pretty likely they couldn't actually go out and find a new manager because of the lame duck ownership.
6. Norris sucks in 2023, but the Thorns still finish in second and the sale doesn't go through until January 2024. The Bhathals take over and Norris is promptly fired after four games, replaced by Gale who goes on to win six straight.
7. The Bhathals let LeBlanc do her job instead of stepping in and demanding a more aggressive hire, and she promtly promotes Gale because he's well liked and she's a bad decision maker. Because she also is friends with Norris, he is functionally promoted as well.
8. Gale sucks, the Thorns spiral, players are pissed, and Leblanc is re-assigned.
9. For the first time in franchise history, the Thorns have the opportunity to make an external hire. They have had only two GMs in their history: Wilkinson from 2013-2021 who was also Timbers GM, and LeBlanc from 2022-24.
So no- It's not priorities, just a series of issues that built up and compounded over time combined with the league getting much stronger around them. Hopefully they get a real fresh start this offseason with a new GM who cleans house.
kielbj has it right. I'd say the key items were "2. Paulson, under pressure, throws Leblanc -- very popular at the time-- in front of him as a human shield as GM in November 2021. Leblanc has no experience whatsoever" as well as "7. The Bhathals let LeBlanc do her job instead of stepping in and demanding a more aggressive hire".
The former was Paulson being Paulson - wanting to be liked, but also defensive and touchy. The latter was new owners giving an inherited employee a chance to prove herself, which was an okay choice but missed that "no experience whatsoever" part. It didn't work out, they have now moved on, and let's hope it's toward a better future for the Thorns.
I feel like that's part of the bad decisions....it's been something I (and many others here) have been saying for years now. They were more apt to "run it back", which was infuriating at the time...where other teams like Gotham used the win to catapult them into another realm. Now they have the strongest/most complete roster in the league. We should have tried to capitalize, but also, we won and then our coach immediately stepped down and we were announced as being sold. So, in hindsight, we may have been hamstrung on building off of that win. But, I still think we could have done a lot more than we did, both with player acquisitions and with the roster we did have and who/how we played. Any analysis about "what went wrong with the Thorns" is missing a huge part of the story if they fail to mention the off-field messes, the drawn-out sale, and the rotating coaches. Norris was a continuity hire....but she made the same easy-way-out decision with Gale, so was it really? Or was it more just KK bad at her job? Prob both, imo.
I have to agree with the Equalizer analysis. They don't mention the constant change in formations, players playing out of position and odd lineup choices, but yes the preference for continuity has led them to be poorly managed in the front office (getting too many players in some positions and leaving other crucial positions thin) and on the field they look unprepared and not well matched up against opponents.
I saw that- That was definitely the reason given for hiring Norris at the time and probably has kernels of truth given how hard everything was for the players after the scandal(s), but I’m also not sure I buy it completely.
The fact that she then did it again with Gale makes me think it’s more of a pattern.
I suspect that Gale was hired as the result of a failed job search.
I think Karina painted herself into a corner by overcommitting to having a permanent HC hired this season.
I get why, however... if your search doesn't produce top-quality finalists who are ready to accept the job if/when offered, then maybe you shouldn't default to promoting the interim to permanent?
Absent the win streak I'll wager they keep looking. Instead they mistook a flash in the pan for actual gold and gave Rob the brass ring (I can too slay my metaphors, fight me). Woopsie, and here we are.
This, by the way, is a great way to slay one's career or a complete organization.
I have pretty good reason to believe that isn't true. I think it's more along the lines of KK likes hiring people in her circle, Gale was popular with the players, and she didn't want to cede any power to an external hire.
But beyond that, the idea that they couldn't find anyone to take what's still objectively one of the 20-30 best women's soccer jobs in the world at worst is pretty absurd-sounding to me. It's possible they did want someone hired midseason and that limited the pool somewhat, but that's still not much of an excuse given it was in between European seasons.
There's also reason to think it was an otherwise failed search and that at least a couple of other, definitely more qualified candidates pulled out, weren't interested, or weren't actually available for hire.
None of us will ever know for sure unless there's some investigative journalism that turns up the receipts.
It's also possible that you and I are saying the same thing, stated differently and pointing to different features.
You say she showed a preference for retaining power and working with those she already knew, and ultimately hired based on that.
I say she hired the least qualified person among her finalists, instead of calling it a failed search and keeping the interim tag on him all year.
I suspect both things are true.
In any case, we do know that it was a poorly-run search by someone who, in this way and so many others, showed she was not right for the job she held.
Minor timeline quibble: the Riley scandal/Wilkinson firing/Karina hiring is all in the fall of 2021; if nothing else this condensed timeline illustrates just how rushed, indifferent and cynical that hire must have been on the part of Peregrine.
I have a piece coming out tomorrow.
I'm guessing by your torn up podcast tweet that you had no idea this was happening?
I found out after the pod recording. So we'll have to find time to re-record.
Phuoc, y'all should still release it! Maybe to just to STF members? I'd sure still love to hear it!!
Yeah we will release it :) Just doing some editing on my lunch break and it should be out today.
Much appreciated!
Yaaaayy! Pop a bubbly on your lunch haha
I'd like to thank Phouc and the rest of the STF team for sticking their necks out and being willing to be critical of the organization. I honestly don't think this would have happened at least before the end of the season without the local media's willingness to be brave.
100%
Thanks y'all for doing what you do, you have a community behind you! This is the pressure and hard work that begins to create change...not just the change we as fans crave, but the change the players here deserve.
You've set the record for most likes on any STF comment since the move to the new platform.
I hereby donate these likes to the STF team.
(Or perhaps to the Thorns goal differential against Orlando tomorrow...)
Folks, we did it!
It was all of us - Phuoc, PDXElls, Chief, ABell4, everybody on STF, everybody on social media, everybody who used the Annual Member renewal window to write in and voice their concerns.
We did it!
Thank god!
Now I can renew my Annual Membership in good conscience.
Kind of sad that the fans and writers are the ones to tell the owners what is plainly obvious.
If I were buying a sports franchise (doesn't matter which one), first think I would do is hire an outside consultant to evaluate the job everyone in the front office is doing. I wouldn't take long for an independent analysis of KK to come back with an abysmal grade.
I wonder how those season tickets sales were going?
Everyone I know was saying "No thanks until KK goes" to their ticket reps.
100% the right move.
I must say I am surprised this actually happened. Surely there will be a truly global search for a GM, who can then clean house as needed. If that search ends up with Mike Norris, I will lose all faith and hope..
I also hope that whomever comes in as GM will have free say on the rest of the staff. Also I do hope KK is not involved in this global search.
No GM worth a damn would take the job without having the authority to replace Gale.
“Global” thus far under the new ownership means Canadians already on staff …
"Player and staff searches officially extended into Yukon and Labrador. Because who doesn't love Labradors?"
Wait, there's a NOVA Scotia??? When did this happen?
Canada export Chevy model.
My guess would be the Bhathals have no special Canadian allegiance. I think our maple leaf tinted hiring glasses were all KK with maybe a touch of Sincy.
Sinclair named New gm? Yikes
LeBlanc needs to be kept away from ANY role in personnel; HR, hiring, firing, anything. Her doxxing the players who protested the Menges-Wilkinson affair tells me she has no concept of integrity when dealing with people. The reddit stuff just reinforced that.
T-shirt cannon? Fine! Hawking RAJ merch on HSN? Okay! But any other role that gives her input on hiring/firing/staffing? Not just no but fuuuuuck no.
She's definitely not going to have that kind of portfolio. I think it's all about community relations.
Why does "community relations" sound so much like "community service" in this context? Hmmm...
Double secret probation was also considered.
Was there a food fight?
You keep saying that. Is there any evidence that it’s true? I mean, has anyone from RAJ actually said as much; no, LeBlanc isn’t going to be Women’s Sports Director?
I, for one, will be sorely disappointed if this whole thing doesn't end with Karina firing the t-shirt cannon at Portland WBNA home games.
Bonus points for working in "Karina firing."
Ok, that one made me laugh out loud. Well done.
Funny. The Riveter guy had the same comment about Karina firing t-shirts. He also voiced some very serious other concerns as long as she is involved, especially if her input is sought for the new GM.
https://rivetingpdx.com/2024/10/09/thorns-fc-vacation/
That guy is STF's very own FDChief! Haven't read his new article yet, but lot's of crossover opinions there, I'm sure.
I'm good with providing quips, and also with setting folks up. Sometimes you play the piano, sometimes you tune it.
No matter how these last two home matches go, Sinclair deserves not to have pissed off fans booing because of the state of the team. Knowing that change is coming fully allows for a good vibe for the last two home matches of 2024.
Oh 100%, I'm over here celebrating like we just won the shield even though we're prob about to get smashed by Orlando lol, and maybe won't even make playoffs.
So long as we can keep the core we have and change was made before even more major damage could be done, we should be able to turn things around with some competent roster building and a competent coach. After all the mistakes that have been made, you'd think they'd get some real advice about hires this time...Anytime you have Soph, Hina, Sam, Marie, Weaver, and even Isa as a young core, you should be able to build a real strong team. Those are about the only starters I see on this team though. Hopefully none of them have been really scared away and will be encouraged by this news. But yeah, there needs to be some real work on the roster this offseason, so I hope hey can get the GM hired quickly.
Most of us put a lot of time and emotional investment into the Thorns so it's certainly reasonable for some pretty sincere celebrations- I know I've personally been pretty bummed for the last few weeks in particular. It's a big deal that the owners acted! Will it save us from losing the Sophs, Obazes and Müllers of the world before next season? Maybe, maybe not, but there was also an even darker version of the timeline where this was our life for the foreseeable future, and the opportunity to bring in an external hire that knows what they're doing is very much here.
And yes! As you say: We have a core! Even if Soph does leave, there's a lot of talent and they still seem to like each other! Get a GM that knows talent and a coach that can coach and it *could* get better pretty quickly.
I too, could easily imagine what you call "an even darker version of the timeline," and not just because I've been a "Community" fanatic for fifteen years.
Although, given today's Thorns news, I did stash my black felt goatee in its hiding place.
Well, Bixby can boo her, I suppose, now that we know she's not going to miss Sinc. =)
I truly hope Thorns fans would never boo their own players. However poorly they're playing - and they have been playing very poorly - no one deserves that kind of treatment.
While I won't say that nobody deserves to be booed, I can't recall a time where a Thorns player did deserve to be booed, which I reserve for a bad attitude and/or persistent lack of effort. One reason I like WoSo so much is that there are so many players who are so likable. Even when at times they would be justified to have a bad attitude and/or not put forth a good effort, they generally suck it up. In Sinc's case, it's not her fault that the coach keeps playing her too much when it's clear she is pretty well cooked. I think Thorns fans are smart enough to know this.
Also gonna be interesting to see what kind of impact this has on the players thought process this offseason. I don't think this is a blanket solve to the nasty vibes even if it's a big, big step in the right direction. I'd hope this makes it less likely that the key players ask out --which I think was getting increasingly likely-- but this is only step one of many and, in some ways, could make a full Pride-style rebuild even more likely if the new GM wants to shape the team in their image. With that said: This is the first time we're (knock on wood) going to have a non-internal GM hire literally EVER. That's cause for excitement.
(I will also say that I generally don't like when players have Lebron-style outsize impact / communicate with owners but let's just say that I wouldn't be *mad* if Soph had a direct line, for instance)
Haha yeah Soph should have a red phone directly to the top floor of Raj sports
No, you're absolutely right. Some players might already have one foot and part of another out the door. And today's news is the just the first step (that we know of) in what needs to happen.
I would think the hiring of next coach would have the biggest impact on players thiughts
Eh, I think they at least like Gale as a person. From what I've heard recently, most of the issue was KK and how she ran the ship.
But yes, a new coach is obviously important too.
The players seem to like Gale, but we know they like winning.
A couple of thoughts on Phuoc;'s new opinion piece:
(1) Parsons might not want to be GM. He might not be ready to be done with coaching.
(2) We might, or might not, need a President for Soccer Ops and a GM. If it turns out that we need both, they should be separate roles.
(3) Who's to say he'd be better at identifying a coach who can take us to the top than he himself is/was as a coach?
(4) Assuming both Sinc and Kling hang it up, Hubly -- if she returns -- would be the only person who has been with the club since 2017.
I do wonder whether it's time for the organization to make a full move into the future.
That said, the man knows and loves the area and the team, and he's definitely got connections, an eye for talent, and fire in the belly. We could certainly do worse.
"We could certainly do worse."
As we have proved.
Other points aside, I do think there's strong evidence that Marpar wants to get back involved with the Thorns....
Definitely.
We should add a Prime Minister of Soccer Ops, reducing President to figurehead and interface with the Parliament of Soccer.
WE are not amused.
One would think.
Not sure if the ladies will appreciate the new position of PMSO.
I would like the team to move in a different direction, but think that Parsons would be a good choice. I go back to his ability to either identify talent or coach up players to become solid NWSL players. If it was the former, it bodes well for him as a GM. If it was the latter, blended in with the former GMs ability to identify talent we could be in a rough spot with the hire.
I don't doubt that Parsons would be a nice PR move and could be a good soccer move. I'm just hopeful we can move forward and not simply recycle players and staff from the past.
I think Mike Smith has done a nice job of identifying and recruiting internationals. Muller is definitely a hit, and Obaze looks like she will be one. You have to have good networks and relations with agents, and those are working in Mike's favor.
So, part of what I am trying to say here is that the Thorns organization will have to be clear about *what is it that a President of Soccer Ops and a GM need to be able to do, and do well.*
And, again, I don't assume that should be one person holding both jobs, or that you actually need both jobs. You can have a President for the whole enchilada - Soccer and Biz - and a GM who reports to the President.
As long as this isn't just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic it's a good move. As said before, it all depends on the next hire. This team is at an inflection point with two bad coaching hires and a bad GM hire all in a row. What they do next really matters.
My guess (hope?) is that her new job will be more community-oriented and she'll have little or nothing to do with the actual playing of sports.
🤞🏽
Not Nadine speaking up lol: https://x.com/NAngerer/status/1844079493658656979
Her quick exit was a mystery to me, that cleared up over the last year.
Miss you, Ice Bear.
https://x.com/nadia_nadim/status/1844109590277062891
Yeah, it was related!
Yuuuuup!
And this one too! https://x.com/nadia_nadim/status/1844085560299888985
Oh this makes me so damn happy!
I am really quite surprised this happened/was announced now instead of post-season, but I hope this allays some of the fears about the Bhathals being absentee owners. Obviously, they still need to get the next hire right, but that's kinda how pro sports works! Not going to pretend I wasn't worried that they wouldn't act, but this is kinda what I said this summer: They let KK do her job as she saw fit, and now she's suffering the consequences (although, those consequences are pretty light in this case).
(and presumably, new GM means new coach and technical staff too)
I think Lisa and Emma must be talking directly now. Saturday's shitshow was just too much.
It's interesting, they clearly still have a good relationship with KK or they wouldn't be hiring her to be part of BOTH franchises.....but they also saw that change was needed and acted.
Well, it's like the Norris situation but bigger. Good person, well liked in many circles. Karina has real value in the city and community, and I'm sure Lisa and Karina have a good relationship. It's just that sometimes people are not right for the role they're in.
I think that's true to an extent, but it's also becoming increasingly clear that her interpersonal skills are not exactly a major strength either given it seems she rubs a number of players and staff the wrong way.
So yeah, she's certainly not the devil, she has done some good stuff as an ambassador, and I'm sure some of her deficiencies are slightly exaggerated around here.....but it's difficult to see exactly what her value is either and what she offers from a discrete skillset standpoint. But hey, at least she's not Jill Ellis!
When you are doing a negotiation, the happy person who struggles to read signals is one of the worst people to negotiate with in terms of coming to a conclusion. She also doesn’t seem to be someone who completes items in a timely manner.
Happy she was let go. Now her primary mistake needs to be let go as well.
Wonder if Nadine would be open to coming back?
Why? Angerer’s work with the keepers after Franch was a study in diminishing returns. Eckerstrom was fine, but Bixby is (as we’ve seen) troubled with what look like solveable technical and tactical failings.
I think Angerer quit for perfectly good reasons; she was no longer turning out outstanding keepers. She was getting stale. It was time to try something and somewhere else.
Agreed. It could also be nothing more than a face-saving negotiated settlement. Which ain't nothing, by the way. But, as you heard on Saturday night, Karina is still liked. I mean, yeah, she had Emma Hayes and her kid with her as she circled the pitch, but fans could have just remained quiet and not waved their scarves.
Sure, but also 80% of people at those games have no real interest in or knowledge of the negative side of her impact on the club. Which is fine! Sometimes I wish I could fan like that! But it's also a good reminder that most Thorns fans see the team as a fun weekend outing and not a whole lot more.
The walls come tumbling down!
Here's a hot take: the shutdown of the NCAA draft is a factor in the LeBlanc move. Without a draft, the GM (and team) has to locate all the potential talent since they aren't rounding themselves up now. Then the GM (and team) have to contact all those people individually, many of whom may not have agents, and try to convince them to be Thorns. Then the GM has to get them all signed, at least provisionally. All within three months and while also doing free-agent business and the holidays. That sounds like a LOT of work. Constant, detail-focused, frustrating work. That is not what LeBlanc signed up for, and seemingly is not her strength.
Just put the exact same sentiment in the other thread- I'm not sure if the Bhathals are that in touch with the soccer world to where that was a major factor, but it's certainly a benefit to not waiting until the end of the season like I thought they would. Looking forward to potential candidates, it would be of benefit to hire someone with experience in the American soccer ecosystem to rival Vlatko and Krikorian's influence with the youth.
(And, while I'm not necessarily in favor of Kilgore in general, that would be an undeniable pro if we're talking coaching too)
All the more reason why KK should have been canned a long time ago. So many fireable offenses to choose from.
As I've said from literally day 1, they were always going to give her a year to prove herself. They did that, she didn't prove herself (or proved herself incapable), and got canned.
Outside the Gale hiring --which she ultimately got fired for-- she doesn't have a ton of discreet "fireable offenses," at least on the soccer side. It's just that she generally wasn't very good at her job! She doesn't have extensive relationships with players and agents, clearly rubs people the wrong way, and is totally inexperienced.
Ummm...the Nasello draft pick and the Kuikka debacle on the soccer side alone. Then there were lots of other poor soccer decisions that all add up to a fireable offense. And yes, you need to include the non-soccer side, which includes doxxing players during the Wilkinson debacle.
Setting hard and fast rules like "giving her a year" is just plain stupid. How much damage has she done when it was clear she was in over her head, not to mention untrustworthy and unlikable?
I don't think either of those are fireable on their own but yeah, the mistakes accumulated. That's why she's not here anymore.
And yeah, you don't need to tell me- I would have preferred they cleaned things out right away too. But they didn't, and I understand why, as new sports owners, they did it they way they did. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it.
If they couldn't figure it out themselves, then they should have hired an independent consultant from day 1 to analyze the job she had done up to that point and beyond. This dragged out way too long and their investment was damaged because of it. If nothing else, just ask around and I'm sure it would become pretty clear very quickly. I don't understand not protecting their investment with simple due diligence.
I think you're giving them too much of a pass here. Hopefully they will do their due diligence in hiring a new GM and whatever other positions they are hiring. They are essentially in the same position as before except they actually need to do something quickly and get it right without the benefit of fan outrage/ticket boycott to guide them. The delay in canning KK means they have more to overcome in a shorter amount of time.
Good point.
I’ve got the same issue with the enthusiasm for Parsons, BTW. His and Gavin’s roster-building success was in NWSL1.0. I’m not convinced he’d be the slam-dunk success a lot of folks want him to be. Maybe? Worth a try? Sure! But the new Free Agent Era will be very different…
Has anybody figured out the role of the transfer portal for NCAA soccer players, now that the draft is kaput? I'm guessing it gets elevated attention.
Medic: "We have a pulse."
Well! If nothing else this sounds like a healthy way to move her out of a role that doesn’t seem to be working, while still keeping her close and without the stress and humiliation of outright canning her. I wish her all the best, and am very glad to be moving the club forward, hopefully with an actual global talent search
As some here know I've been following/reporting on the Timbers closely for 24 years, the Thorns for 13 years, as well as other teams like the Portland Rain, but I've never seen the kind of fiasco the GM/coaching chaos has become. Admittedly I don't really know the more recent GMs and coaches personally the way I did years ago, but it really makes me wonder what the heck has been going on the last few years. Have the priorities changed so much that success of the team on the field and stability of the franchises is far down the list?
I really hope they snap out of their recent trend of confusing decisions and shock us all with some moves we can really get behind. I still believe in these teams and want to feel that enthusiasm that I once did.
It really all tracks back to Paulson:
1. Riley scandal breaks in 2020. Wilkinson fired as a result.
2. Paulson, under pressure, throws Leblanc -- very popular at the time-- in front of him as a human shield as GM in November 2021. Leblanc has no experience whatsoever.
3. Paulson is put under pressure to sell the Thorns in 2021-22 and finally announces his intention to sell in 2022.
4. From the time LeBlanc is hired through January 2024, the Thorns bring in ONLY Janine Beckie, Adriana Leon on loan, and a series of rookies as new signings; most likely because Paulson shut the tap off as soon as he knew he'd lost his stake in the Thorns. Meanwhile, Gotham, Orlando, Washington, and Kansas City get ambitious, and Angel City and San Diego come into the league in desirable markets.
5. After winning a championship in 2022, Norris is promoted by Leblanc and is never actually given the interim tag. This is important because it's pretty likely they couldn't actually go out and find a new manager because of the lame duck ownership.
6. Norris sucks in 2023, but the Thorns still finish in second and the sale doesn't go through until January 2024. The Bhathals take over and Norris is promptly fired after four games, replaced by Gale who goes on to win six straight.
7. The Bhathals let LeBlanc do her job instead of stepping in and demanding a more aggressive hire, and she promtly promotes Gale because he's well liked and she's a bad decision maker. Because she also is friends with Norris, he is functionally promoted as well.
8. Gale sucks, the Thorns spiral, players are pissed, and Leblanc is re-assigned.
9. For the first time in franchise history, the Thorns have the opportunity to make an external hire. They have had only two GMs in their history: Wilkinson from 2013-2021 who was also Timbers GM, and LeBlanc from 2022-24.
So no- It's not priorities, just a series of issues that built up and compounded over time combined with the league getting much stronger around them. Hopefully they get a real fresh start this offseason with a new GM who cleans house.
kielbj has it right. I'd say the key items were "2. Paulson, under pressure, throws Leblanc -- very popular at the time-- in front of him as a human shield as GM in November 2021. Leblanc has no experience whatsoever" as well as "7. The Bhathals let LeBlanc do her job instead of stepping in and demanding a more aggressive hire".
The former was Paulson being Paulson - wanting to be liked, but also defensive and touchy. The latter was new owners giving an inherited employee a chance to prove herself, which was an okay choice but missed that "no experience whatsoever" part. It didn't work out, they have now moved on, and let's hope it's toward a better future for the Thorns.
Equalizer's analysis is that the Thorns preference for "continuity" did them in.
I feel like that's part of the bad decisions....it's been something I (and many others here) have been saying for years now. They were more apt to "run it back", which was infuriating at the time...where other teams like Gotham used the win to catapult them into another realm. Now they have the strongest/most complete roster in the league. We should have tried to capitalize, but also, we won and then our coach immediately stepped down and we were announced as being sold. So, in hindsight, we may have been hamstrung on building off of that win. But, I still think we could have done a lot more than we did, both with player acquisitions and with the roster we did have and who/how we played. Any analysis about "what went wrong with the Thorns" is missing a huge part of the story if they fail to mention the off-field messes, the drawn-out sale, and the rotating coaches. Norris was a continuity hire....but she made the same easy-way-out decision with Gale, so was it really? Or was it more just KK bad at her job? Prob both, imo.
I have to agree with the Equalizer analysis. They don't mention the constant change in formations, players playing out of position and odd lineup choices, but yes the preference for continuity has led them to be poorly managed in the front office (getting too many players in some positions and leaving other crucial positions thin) and on the field they look unprepared and not well matched up against opponents.
I saw that- That was definitely the reason given for hiring Norris at the time and probably has kernels of truth given how hard everything was for the players after the scandal(s), but I’m also not sure I buy it completely.
The fact that she then did it again with Gale makes me think it’s more of a pattern.
I suspect that Gale was hired as the result of a failed job search.
I think Karina painted herself into a corner by overcommitting to having a permanent HC hired this season.
I get why, however... if your search doesn't produce top-quality finalists who are ready to accept the job if/when offered, then maybe you shouldn't default to promoting the interim to permanent?
Absent the win streak I'll wager they keep looking. Instead they mistook a flash in the pan for actual gold and gave Rob the brass ring (I can too slay my metaphors, fight me). Woopsie, and here we are.
This, by the way, is a great way to slay one's career or a complete organization.
fool's gold?
fool's goal?
fool's gale?
fails gale?
I have pretty good reason to believe that isn't true. I think it's more along the lines of KK likes hiring people in her circle, Gale was popular with the players, and she didn't want to cede any power to an external hire.
But beyond that, the idea that they couldn't find anyone to take what's still objectively one of the 20-30 best women's soccer jobs in the world at worst is pretty absurd-sounding to me. It's possible they did want someone hired midseason and that limited the pool somewhat, but that's still not much of an excuse given it was in between European seasons.
Could be.
There's also reason to think it was an otherwise failed search and that at least a couple of other, definitely more qualified candidates pulled out, weren't interested, or weren't actually available for hire.
None of us will ever know for sure unless there's some investigative journalism that turns up the receipts.
It's also possible that you and I are saying the same thing, stated differently and pointing to different features.
You say she showed a preference for retaining power and working with those she already knew, and ultimately hired based on that.
I say she hired the least qualified person among her finalists, instead of calling it a failed search and keeping the interim tag on him all year.
I suspect both things are true.
In any case, we do know that it was a poorly-run search by someone who, in this way and so many others, showed she was not right for the job she held.
Minor timeline quibble: the Riley scandal/Wilkinson firing/Karina hiring is all in the fall of 2021; if nothing else this condensed timeline illustrates just how rushed, indifferent and cynical that hire must have been on the part of Peregrine.
Ah that’s right, good catch.
Yes, Linehan's "This guy has a pattern" article in The Athletic came out September 30, 2021.